Celtic nations come together to resist changes to Heineken Cup

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Martyn Thomas says Ireland, Wales and Scotland have formed a pact not to give in to the English and French demands. Furthermore he thinks the English and French are going to be forced to back down and he describes English and French rugby as "power crazy".

Premiership Rugby's hopes of forcing a re-vamp of the Heineken Cup have been dealt a blow by reports that resistance to the proposed changes is growing.

"The Celtic Unions have made a pact that this time they will not roll over in the face of any threats," he told The Rugby Paper. "If they keep their nerve when the going gets tough, the French and English clubs will be forced to back down.

"The Welsh, Irish and Scottish Union are determined not to give in. If the English and French clubs don't back down and walk away from the tournament, the Celts will say: 'That's a shame but if you don't want to play in the Heineken Cup as we know it and love it, tough'.

"It's all about brinkmanship. The top English and French clubs are power crazy. They are driven by a join belief that they are the people who command the most money from television for live coverage. That rather flies in the face of the fact that five of the last six teams represented in the last three finals did not come from England. Despite that, they have no regard for the revenue generated by Welsh, Irish and Scottish teams."

He continued: "Like most things in professional sport, this is about money and the English and French teams want more. They may dress it up in all sorts of ways but that's the reality. There will be some tough times ahead."

Hersh,my view is that it is for the best teams not lets get more.
Better to have 2 or 3 comps that are competitive than have uneven games,as rugby supporters dont we want hard even games rather than one sided affairs.Wouldn't it be better for teams to have a chance? eg Italians in Amlin,when they can win that they would qualify for the HEC.IMHO only the teams in the top half of their league(Jeff/Top14/Robo) stand a chance of winning the HEC

broadbandboy it's a bit disingenuous to suggest that the same amount of clubs are unhappy as are happy (and not only because the regions represent numerous clubs).

It doesn't really matter to the organisation of the HEC if (say) the Blues are unhappy, as it's the unions who organise the competition and who decide which clubs qualify and how qualification is decided. The only slight difference is that the ERFU has given away some of it's voting rights to the PRL.

As such people were right to state that 4 out of 6 countries are happy with it.

Broadland - Only taking the cream of each league would make the strongest competition. And in a perfect world I wuld love to see that tournament.

However, in theory if you only take the top half of each league you could end up with two of the six nations involed in the HEC effectively being booted out. Seeing as Ireland, Italy, Scotland and Wales could effectively end up without any teams in the HEC, tehy would never agree to that, unless there were some sort of monetary gain for them in taking the gamble, which would never happen.

The big fear for Scottish or Italian rugby would be that they'd both go to the Amlin and both see a big drop in income which would make it even harder to ever get back up to the HC, or even survive finacially.

Maybe the French/English proposals could be agreed to on one condition. If any nation ends up with no teams in the HC, they are still paid a certain amount of money from the main pot and don't see a drop in income. So at least they have the financial means to get themselves back to the top table, even if it takes years.

Do people not think it would be a major shame to lose a country from the HC though?

My prefferred solution would be to expand the HC to 32 (though keep the same number of rounds). 8 groups. Group winners go through. 2nd placed go to Amlin.

This would allow 4 more English and 4 more French teams to enter and would greatly ease the strain on them to qualify, so it would be much more of a level playing field.

I'd also seed the HC each year based on domestic league position. It's the only way to make the PRO12 performance more relevant to the HC (there can't be relegation). For example Edinburgh's poor PRO12 performance would make them a bottom seed and scupper their chances next year. So they really have to concentrate on both competitions.

SP Why is it disingenuous to suggest that at least half the participants are un happy when their representatives say they are willing to leave because they are not satisfied with it at the moment? Are all the clubs represented by the regions happy?I thought that it was the ERC who organise the competition with the unions shareholders in it.I know why you use countries as it gives the appearance that the majority are happy where as my example it appears that half are not.
SS This is the proposal that English/French are making.Yes it might see some 6N countries not participating in the top level of European competition but in the next level where they can compete.
FR I believe that this is part of the Eng/Fra proposal,to make the Amlin more financially viable and help with the proposed 3rd tier comp

Feckless

Only problem with that is that Edinburgh would be a low seed this season despite making last years semi's! And as the 2 Irish sides are the best in Europe would it be fair to the Italian and scot teams having to play them all the time and not get a decent seeding?!

For me seeding has to be on the previous seasons tourny only, points per win against tier'd games. So reaching the 14's means means top tier for next season etc...

Bluesman, that's Edinburgh's fault for not doing better in the Pro12.

broadland

So by your reckoning, what happens if 6 teams from each league are selected for HC places...

The WRU decides to go back to clubs, so they can then get more places in the tourny without having to take the risk of non participation...

Do Wales then get the equal amount as the other 3 leagues? Lets say 4 teams per league then winners make up the 24 spots?

Feckless Rogue wrote:The big fear for Scottish or Italian rugby would be that they'd both go to the Amlin and both see a big drop in income which would make it even harder to ever get back up to the HC, or even survive finacially.

Maybe the French/English proposals could be agreed to on one condition. If any nation ends up with no teams in the HC, they are still paid a certain amount of money from the main pot and don't see a drop in income. So at least they have the financial means to get themselves back to the top table, even if it takes years.

Do people not think it would be a major shame to lose a country from the HC though?

My prefferred solution would be to expand the HC to 32 (though keep the same number of rounds). 8 groups. Group winners go through. 2nd placed go to Amlin.

This would allow 4 more English and 4 more French teams to enter and would greatly ease the strain on them to qualify, so it would be much more of a level playing field.

I'd also seed the HC each year based on domestic league position. It's the only way to make the PRO12 performance more relevant to the HC (there can't be relegation). For example Edinburgh's poor PRO12 performance would make them a bottom seed and scupper their chances next year. So they really have to concentrate on both competitions.

Spot on - the distribution of the collective ERC income can be separated from participation in HC - it's purely a commercial negotiation.

However, I don't see the point in expanding HC which would weaken Amlin even more. A 16 team HC in 4 pools would give 8 pool matches each weekend to fit into only 6 TV timeslots, so TV income should stay high. A strengthened Amlin will make it more attractive to TV & sponsors and should start earning money to put into the collective pot.

Spice up the Amlin even more by making it the qualifying route for next season's HC. Bottom 4 or 8 (or 6 after playoffs) in HC are replaced by the top finishers in the Amlin.

Drop most of the current Amlin minnows into a 3rd tier competition, adding Georgians, Russians, etc, subsidised by the (presumed) increase in income, with a route for the top 2, say, to qualify for next year's Amlin.

Broadland - the reason ntaions were brought up instead of clubs (by me not priest), as because the HEC was brought together by the national unions, and not by the clubs. I believe that the RFU have shared their stake with the PRL and the FRF have done likewise with the T14. So the Rabo nations do (i believe) hold more of the chips, so to speak. The thing is in the past we were not as high quality as the Jeff, and T14 sides so we didn't stand our ground, whereas now we are, and we are looking at standing our ground.

Like I said the idea is a nice one, but turkeys don't vote for Xmas

It's disingenuous because it doesn't matter if the clubs are unhappy, it's the unions that are important (ie the decision makers). I use the countries as they are the decision makers ie their unions form the ERC and are the stakeholder/shareholders in it (both have different meanings but the unions are both stake and shareholders).

Saying the clubs are unhappy is like saying G Henson is unhappy with the way the HEC is organised because he won't be able to appear in it. It doesn't make a difference if Henson is unhappy with it, because it's the unions that make the decisions and decide who appears in the HEC not the clubs/players.

It seems you are only using the clubs/regions argument because it gives more strenth to your argument.

But let me ask you this if the Blues (or the Saints or Sales) are unhappy with the HEC rules as they stand, what can they do?
Nothing is the answer, other than ask their union to do something.

Because the Unions have the power

Sorry 8 and 6 not 6 and 4!

Feckless wants an NFL style comp which will never happen

SS You aren't calling the Robo Teams turkeys are you?

broadlandboy wrote:SS You aren't calling the Robo Teams turkeys are you?

I walked straight into that

SP The Eng/Fra clubs have the power to not play which they seem willing to do when this contract ends. What value would the HEC have without Eng/Fra top clubs playing in it?

Smirnoffpriest wrote:It's disingenuous because it doesn't matter if the clubs are unhappy, it's the unions that are important (ie the decision makers). I use the countries as they are the decision makers ie their unions form the ERC and are the stakeholder/shareholders in it (both have different meanings but the unions are both stake and shareholders).

Saying the clubs are unhappy is like saying G Henson is unhappy with the way the HEC is organised because he won't be able to appear in it. It doesn't make a difference if Henson is unhappy with it, because it's the unions that make the decisions and decide who appears in the HEC not the clubs/players.

It seems you are only using the clubs/regions argument because it gives more strenth to your argument.

But let me ask you this if the Blues (or the Saints or Sales) are unhappy with the HEC rules as they stand, what can they do?
Nothing is the answer, other than ask their union to do something.

Because the Unions have the power

I think it's the clubs vs Unions which is at the crux of this disagreement. As you say, it's the Unions who are the current majority decision makers. The clubs don't like that, seeing Unions as hidebound, non-commercial entitiies with priorities other than their constituent teams, whereas the clubs consider that their commercially driven dynamism will serve the competition better. It's probably somewhere in between, and it's probably somewhere in between that the negotiations will end up.

Btw, RRW have a seat on the ERC board as well as WRU, so Blues could ask them to do something, just as Saints or Sale probably have done with PRL, and the French clubs with LNR.

Sorry Broadband but the ERFU have the power not to compete in the competition past 2014, but the clubs have to compete if the ERFU decides to participate - if (say for example) Leceister decide the are so unhappy they don't wish to compete, they may be forced to by the ERFU, or they may be fined, or the ERFU will give their place to another club.

The ERFU can decide who represents England in the HEC - if they wanted they could give the places to Championship clubs, or select sides out of a hat. Fair enough this wouldn't bring value to the competition, but it's in the rules that the ERFU can do that.

Overate - but RRW don't have a vote on ERC matters - the PRL and Top14 do have a vote, but only equal to the ERFU and FRFU, the WRU, SRU, IRFU and Italian RFU have 2 votes each.

broadlandboy wrote:SP The Eng/Fra clubs have the power to not play which they seem willing to do when this contract ends. What value would the HEC have without Eng/Fra top clubs playing in it?

Have you ever played cards or gambled before? If the French and English said yeah we are unhappy but will sign a new contract when this one runs out, they would not have any barganing chips. They are hoping that the rabo nations will weight up the loss of the English and French against the new proposals and will say decide it is worth the loss of income to keep hold of them. It could go either way, as at the moment the European superpower regional/club-wise are the Irish.

Out of interst looking at your username are you Norfolk?

Smirnoffpriest wrote:Overate - but RRW don't have a vote on ERC matters - the PRL and Top14 do have a vote, but only equal to the ERFU and FRFU, the WRU, SRU, IRFU and Italian RFU have 2 votes each.

Which is more or less what I said

Rabo Nations - 8 Votes
England & France - 4 Votes

So it is unlikely that any version of the HEC without the Italians or Scots, or where there could be none, will be voted in. Maybe they would accept 1 Italian, 1 Scots, 2 Welsh, 2 Irish based on their own national standings in the Rabo, but not just top 6 Rabo sides.

Sorry Broadband but the ERFU have the power not to compete in the competition past 2014, but the clubs have to compete if the ERFU decides to participate

ERFU? Who? Do you mean the RFU? The were the first and worst among equals.

Not sure that is strictly true either. The PRL can choose to withdraw from the competition as they have a stake in the ERC. That would remove the AP teams from the competition. The RFU would not have any given power to force them back into the competition once again and if they did they'd find that the AP might quickly stop being under their control, a move that would be swiftly followed by the Championship clubs who would align themselves with the PRL. There is a reason (well several) the RFU are staying well out of this.

SP I may be thick but I can't see how a team can be made to compete when it's representative(PRL) backs them.Yes the RFU could enter Championship teams that is why I said the top teams
SS You know your areas

Smirnoffpriest wrote:Overate - but RRW don't have a vote on ERC matters - the PRL and Top14 do have a vote, but only equal to the ERFU and FRFU, the WRU, SRU, IRFU and Italian RFU have 2 votes each.

I don't know the status of RRW's seat on the board, but I'm happy to take your word for it.

As far as RFU forcing english teams to participate, they could only do that by tearing up the EPS agreement with PRL, which would precipitate civil war. Unlikely to happen with RWC2015 on the horizon, but still possible. There's a perverse part of me which would love to see Championship clubs in HC and Amlin.

Because the clubs are given pro licences by the ERFU, sign up to the ERFU codes and have participation agreements to the ERFU, including participating in the competitions that the ERFU wants them to (depending on qualification criteria that the ERFU decides).

broadlandboy wrote:SP I may be thick but I can't see how a team can be made to compete when it's representative(PRL) backs them.Yes the RFU could enter Championship teams that is why I said the top teams
SS You know your areas

The whole issue is a bit of a mine field of the clubs and unions not exactly being eye to eye in England and France, and that has a knock on for the rest.

The wife is from Hellsdon (sure thats spelt wrong), so what team you follow?

ScarletSpiderman wrote:
They have not taken their ball and gone home because they realistically don't want to do that! What they want is for the Rabo sides to say ok, we will do what you want us to do, and we will take less money and we will promise not to let Leinster/Munster win it all the time.

Another reason they haven't left is because if they did it would be breach of contract and they would be sued for all the revenue the other clubs/regions and companies like Sky would lose.

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

Smirnoffpriest wrote:Overate - but RRW don't have a vote on ERC matters - the PRL and Top14 do have a vote, but only equal to the ERFU and FRFU, the WRU, SRU, IRFU and Italian RFU have 2 votes each.

Which is more or less what I said

Rabo Nations - 8 Votes
England & France - 4 Votes

So it is unlikely that any version of the HEC without the Italians or Scots, or where there could be none, will be voted in. Maybe they would accept 1 Italian, 1 Scots, 2 Welsh, 2 Irish based on their own national standings in the Rabo, but not just top 6 Rabo sides.

I've seen somewhere fairly recently that there are 18 votes in total, with RFU & PRL having 2.5 each, and the same for the French, with the other nations having just 2 each. However, all parties have the right to veto on certain matters, commercial, financial, etc.

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

Smirnoffpriest wrote:Overate - but RRW don't have a vote on ERC matters - the PRL and Top14 do have a vote, but only equal to the ERFU and FRFU, the WRU, SRU, IRFU and Italian RFU have 2 votes each.

Which is more or less what I said

Rabo Nations - 8 Votes
England & France - 4 Votes

So it is unlikely that any version of the HEC without the Italians or Scots, or where there could be none, will be voted in. Maybe they would accept 1 Italian, 1 Scots, 2 Welsh, 2 Irish based on their own national standings in the Rabo, but not just top 6 Rabo sides.

True. And ultimately I suspect the French/English don't care too much which Rabo teams go through either.

SP As FKAS & DLO state there is an uneasy peace between the RFU & PRL so the RFU are keeping out of it
SS I'm A Tigger follower

can wait for the season to start so this can all be over. the problem with all this is that we have nothing to talk about so it keeps going.

As I have stated I would love for FIRA AER to have joint ownership with the ERC on the 3rd tier so we can get the rest of europe growing and then bring in more money. If each country in Europe had a tv deal to at least show highlights of the HC/Amlin/3rd Tier we wouldn't be fighting as the money would go up with the ecomonies of scale

Because the clubs are given pro licences by the ERFU, sign up to the ERFU codes and have participation agreements to the ERFU, including participating in the competitions that the ERFU wants them to (depending on qualification criteria that the ERFU decides).

No they are not. The ERFU do no such thing. The RFU on the other hand issue Pro Licences but denying the top clubs those on the basis of trying to force them back into the HEC would see the EPS agreement go straight out of the window and as Dubbya points out that would mean mass civil war between the PRL and the RFU.

You need to bare in mind that the PRL have previously threatened to move the playoff final away from Twickers and withold players from the additional 4th AI game that falls outside of the International Window (which would cost the RFU lots of money on both counts). There is zero love lost between the RFU and the PRL and at this point in time they are the friendliest they've ever been. The RFU will do nothing to sabotage that ahead of 2015 even if that incurs the wrath of the other Unions.

broadband I think we're coming at the same thing from different directions

LordDowlais wrote:Rugby is not even in the top three sports in England so please do not tell me you have everybody watching it. Here in Wales, everyone will watch rugby on the tele if there is a Welsh team playing

Untrue.

Well they certainly won't go to the stadium

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:Rugby is not even in the top three sports in England so please do not tell me you have everybody watching it. Here in Wales, everyone will watch rugby on the tele if there is a Welsh team playing

Untrue.

Everyone in Wales will watch rugby in tele if there is the Welsh team are playing, but sadly hnot too many will actually watch the regions playing whether it is on free-to-air tv or subscription or whatever. Football is our club sport in Wales, whether you like it or not. There are probably more people watching Swansea play football on TV on a weekend that there are watching all four regions on tv on the on a weekend.

"ERC is.....an independent company whose stakeholders are all six participating unions and their respective elite professional teams. Those stakeholders have collectively agreed that all of the commercial rights to The Heineken Cup are to be controlled centrally by ERC. They have also agreed that, in order to ensure competitive balance across the participating nations, the resulting revenues are to be distributed not according to the contribution to the central pot from each domestic TV market but rather 85% pro rata according to number of participants and 15% according to success in the tournament."

ERC June 2010

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:Rugby is not even in the top three sports in England so please do not tell me you have everybody watching it. Here in Wales, everyone will watch rugby on the tele if there is a Welsh team playing

Untrue.

Everyone in Wales will watch rugby in tele if there is the Welsh team are playing

Also untrue. It's a myth that everyone in Wales loves rugby. Plenty prefer football and couldn't give two hoots about the egg-chasing.

Luckless - I can only say from my experiences. I know about 3 or 4 people who are regional fans, however I know about 50-60 people who can't shut the traps about rugby during the AIs, 6Ns and summer tours.

Luckless

I disagree slightly, there are a few 'hardcore' footy fans, generally a few thousand or so, but viewing figures for Wales games is HUGE! Near 250000 people invade the city centre on matchday and Viewing is 3 times that.

There is reason why the bbc and s4c pay so much money for regional rugby and that is because the viewing figures are so high, if there was no interest there would be no rugby on the tele. I here'd a statement from Roger Lewis that having a game on tele is the equivalent in monetary terms as having ten thousand people through the turnstiles per game. You hardly see bbc Wales clambering to get hold of Welsh football do you, although you will see massive support for Liverpool and Man utd around Wales that is nothing when it comes to rugby union.

LordDowlais wrote:There is reason why the bbc and s4c pay so much money for regional rugby and that is because the viewing figures are so high, if there was no interest there would be no rugby on the tele. I here'd a statement from Roger Lewis that having a game on tele is the equivalent in monetary terms as having ten thousand people through the turnstiles per game. You hardly see bbc Wales clambering to get hold of Welsh football do you, although you will see massive support for Liverpool and Man utd around Wales that is nothing when it comes to rugby union.

Maybe it is just a where you are in Wales thing. But around my way you will see probably about 2 or 3 times more English Premier League football shirts on people than you will see regional rugby jerseys. Also in sports shops you tend to find the Welsh international rugby jersey for sale in most shops, but only in a few will you find regional rugby jerseys, yet you will find English/Spanish/Italian football club's shirts on sale in nearly all of them. That said it does seem to be a case of we play rugby as our sport, just don't watch it.

That said regional rugby has made huge strides. I remember 10 years ago I spent my first wage packet on a Llanelli RFC shirt, and when I wore it out and about hardly anyone knew what it was, and those who did, didn't know where you could by them (bar at the ground). Now it is quite common to see people in the pub wearing regional shirts, and like I said there are a handful of shops that have them in their window displays etc. So maybe in a few years time rugby could be the club game of Wales, but it isn't right now.

thebluesmancometh wrote:Luckless

I disagree slightly, there are a few 'hardcore' footy fans, generally a few thousand or so, but viewing figures for Wales games is HUGE! Near 250000 people invade the city centre on matchday and Viewing is 3 times that.

To be fair though, most of those are just out on the lash and aren't really bothered about the game. It's the same in the stadium with everyone moving around and going to the bar/toilet every five minutes.

sugarNspikes wrote:

thebluesmancometh wrote:Luckless

I disagree slightly, there are a few 'hardcore' footy fans, generally a few thousand or so, but viewing figures for Wales games is HUGE! Near 250000 people invade the city centre on matchday and Viewing is 3 times that.

To be fair though, most of those are just out on the lash and aren't really bothered about the game. It's the same in the stadium with everyone moving around and going to the bar/toilet every five minutes.

Not 'most' necessarily, but a fair few, no question.

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:

sugarNspikes wrote:

thebluesmancometh wrote:Luckless

I disagree slightly, there are a few 'hardcore' footy fans, generally a few thousand or so, but viewing figures for Wales games is HUGE! Near 250000 people invade the city centre on matchday and Viewing is 3 times that.

To be fair though, most of those are just out on the lash and aren't really bothered about the game. It's the same in the stadium with everyone moving around and going to the bar/toilet every five minutes.

Not 'most' necessarily, but a fair few, no question.

But part of why they go is because of the fact it is the national sport, and they can then brag about 'I was there (peed up and not remembering but there)'. The same numbers don't decend on the capital for the football internationals etc.

Pink cowboy hats comes to mind...

No one's arguing that international football is as popular as international rugby in Wales. What I'm saying is that there are plenty of Welshmen (more than a 'few thousand') who actively dislike rugby.

Luckless - whats that saying about you can please some of hte people all the time, and all the people some of the time, but you can not please all the people all the time.

If the majority of the nation follow the international rugby team then that makes it our national sport. If the majority of people follow a football team over a rugby region then that makes football our club sport.

I remember, around a decade ago, when the Welsh football team was the best supported international football side in Europe (incredibly!) when Mark Hughes' side beat Italy (twice) and drew to Germany, and just missed out on qualifying for 2 tournaments.

Even though the Wales rugby team gets those figures regularly, it does show that there's football fans out there. Same as the number of supporter buses/clubs for English Prem teams there are in Wales, and the number of new season ticket holders for Cardiff/Swansea there are.

As SS says rugby is our national game, but (unfortunately) football is our club game, and generally English clubs are the ones supported.

I think people in Wales have turned to football more and more because the product of pro rugby used to be so poor. It's getting better now, but we've lost a lot of potential fans.