Celtic nations come together to resist changes to Heineken Cup

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http://www.espnscrum.com/heineken-cup-2011-12/rugby/story/166705.html

Martyn Thomas says Ireland, Wales and Scotland have formed a pact not to give in to the English and French demands. Furthermore he thinks the English and French are going to be forced to back down and he describes English and French rugby as "power crazy".

Premiership Rugby's hopes of forcing a re-vamp of the Heineken Cup have been dealt a blow by reports that resistance to the proposed changes is growing.

"The Celtic Unions have made a pact that this time they will not roll over in the face of any threats," he told The Rugby Paper. "If they keep their nerve when the going gets tough, the French and English clubs will be forced to back down.

"The Welsh, Irish and Scottish Union are determined not to give in. If the English and French clubs don't back down and walk away from the tournament, the Celts will say: 'That's a shame but if you don't want to play in the Heineken Cup as we know it and love it, tough'.

"It's all about brinkmanship. The top English and French clubs are power crazy. They are driven by a join belief that they are the people who command the most money from television for live coverage. That rather flies in the face of the fact that five of the last six teams represented in the last three finals did not come from England. Despite that, they have no regard for the revenue generated by Welsh, Irish and Scottish teams."

He continued: "Like most things in professional sport, this is about money and the English and French teams want more. They may dress it up in all sorts of ways but that's the reality. There will be some tough times ahead."

So by your reasoning every nation should recieve the same amount of money and the same amount of places in the tournament?

I'd quite happily see 3 teams from each nation, winners from HC and Amlin and 4 'invitational' teams. Then the pot split 24 ways.

England and France want more clubs than everyone else, infact didn't they argue last time about it. If they want to reduce their participation the other nations can use the extra slots, but you can't argue for more participating clubs, then argue you want a bigger slice of the pie because you have them!

Despite having more teams, they also want to reduce the number of rabo clubs competing

The problem is Is the HC a club or regional competition? At the moment it is both yet neither.

broadlandboy wrote:The problem is Is the HC a club or regional competition? At the moment it is both yet neither.

So either Egnland and France enter regions, which won't happen as the clubs are the real power in English/French rugby, or Wales and Ireland enter clubs like Carmarthen Quins and Ballymena? I guess that will then make the competition far more competitive and interesting .

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

broadlandboy wrote:The problem is Is the HC a club or regional competition? At the moment it is both yet neither.

So either Egnland and France enter regions, which won't happen as the clubs are the real power in English/French rugby, or Wales and Ireland enter clubs like Carmarthen Quins and Ballymena? I guess that will then make the competition far more competitive and interesting .

We can all play rugby if we want, but it has to be the way the French and English tell us how to do it, as long as we to what they want we should be fine.

Lord - Rule 1: Don't beat us!

We never beat them, we just score more points.

To the Eng/Fra it is a club competition,to the Celts/Ita it is regional. Each has different priorities.Clubs need to make money to continue,regions tend to use as development for national team.Yes they can play against eachother but hard to get balance even for both.At the moment clubs believe it is uneven towards regions.Regions are happy which tends to make me think that they have the upper hand.

This is the only truely fair way I've seen of organising the HEC but it does bring in an extra round of competition. Admittedly an interesting round of competition but there you go.

https://www.606v2.com/t31043-a-proposal-for-the-hec-debate

To the Eng/Fra it is a club competition,to the Celts/Ita it is regional. Each has different priorities.Clubs need to make money to continue,regions tend to use as development for national team.Yes they can play against eachother but hard to get balance even for both.At the moment clubs believe it is uneven towards regions.Regions are happy which tends to make me think that they have the upper hand.

broadlandboy that is pretty much the situation yes. Just add the word financially in a couple of times there and you've achieved what it's taken most reporters an entire column to explain.

Not sure how playing the regions best players in the HEC means they are using it for development?

Not sure how playing the regions best players in the HEC means they are using it for development?

Developing or maintaining top level players for their national side. I think it was a point about Regions/Provinces being Union/Internationally focussed and the Clubs being domestically focussed. Which is true to an extent.

broadlandboy wrote:To the Eng/Fra it is a club competition,to the Celts/Ita it is regional. Each has different priorities.Clubs need to make money to continue,regions tend to use as development for national team.Yes they can play against eachother but hard to get balance even for both.At the moment clubs believe it is uneven towards regions.Regions are happy which tends to make me think that they have the upper hand.

Don't talk nonesence. The regions/provinces/superclubs of the Rabo are all set up in order to aid their national side. However I can't think of a singel time there has been an 'experimental' or 'intentionally weakened' side feilded in the HEC by any of the Rabo sides. However the French club got a ticking off by the ERC a few years back about feilding second string sides so they could concentrate on the T14 (Bourgoin? it was a smaller french side like that).

The English Clubs are claiming that the Rabo sides have an easy route into the HEC so they can concentrate fully on the HEC and ignore their league as the Rabo has no relegation. The French really don't give two hoots about the HEC, and would rather have their domestic league improved and enlarged. From their point of view the HEC would need to be reduced in order to achieve that. The Rabo nations are on the whole happy with hoz things are going. Their league is improving season upon season, the Rabo nations seem to be doing better in the HEC year apon year, and generally (especially when you look at age grade) their national sides are improving too.

This issue has absolutely sod all to do with whether the HEC is a regional or club tournament, and certainly nothing to do with developement at all!

Sam - I can't find it but Red Stag has but a good system where by the Welsh/Irish participation gets reduced to 2 teams (unless they have a winner, then they get 3), I think the English/French have 4, Italy and Scotland have 1 each. I think that's right, but would need to check with Red Stag/find the thread he posted it on. You'd then have the Amlin and HEC winners (or if they have already qualified the next best team in that country)

As far as I can remember that is right, and it gives you 4 groups of 4, with a reduced HEC as the French want, but has representation from every country to keep it a European competition as the Rabo wants, and increases competition to qualify for the HEC which the English want.

* RedStag would need to clarify where I may have gone wrong, and give the exact idea - just treat this as a guide

formerly known as Sam wrote:

Not sure how playing the regions best players in the HEC means they are using it for development?

Developing or maintaining top level players for their national side. I think it was a point about Regions/Provinces being Union/Internationally focussed and the Clubs being domestically focussed. Which is true to an extent.

But don't the Jeff sides play the best English players? THat means they are developement sides going by your logic.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

Not sure how playing the regions best players in the HEC means they are using it for development?

Developing or maintaining top level players for their national side. I think it was a point about Regions/Provinces being Union/Internationally focussed and the Clubs being domestically focussed. Which is true to an extent.

Fair enough there are different focuses and as you say the regions/provinces are more National team focused. But that doesn't really effect the HEC as it's a cup compeitition and every team (except the French) usually fields a full strength side and aims to win it (unless occasionally when their at the bottom of the pool and can't qualify for knockouts/Amlin)

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:

Not sure how playing the regions best players in the HEC means they are using it for development?

Developing or maintaining top level players for their national side. I think it was a point about Regions/Provinces being Union/Internationally focussed and the Clubs being domestically focussed. Which is true to an extent.

But don't the Jeff sides play the best English players? THat means they are developement sides going by your logic.

Also don't tell the English sides that they rotate their players - they don't, even though they have similar agreements with their Unions as the Irish/Welsh/Scottish (the EPS) and their international players play similar amounts of games each season - 9-15

SS you say I'm talking nonsense then agree with me,perhaps rather than development I should have said in the unions best interest.
SP it does have an effect on the HEC as having to win each week to qualify means playing your best players each week so more likelyhood of injuries/tiredness not just your best in the HEC.

I pointed out that all clubs/regions/provinces do this and as a result all their International players play roughly the same amount of games as all the clubs/regions/provines (at least in the UK) have agreements to release their players for international duty, and all the unions play internationals throughout the season at the same time.

broadlandboy wrote:SS you say I'm talking nonsense then agree with me,perhaps rather than development I should have said in the unions best interest.
SP it does have an effect on the HEC as having to win each week to qualify means playing your best players each week so more likelyhood of injuries/tiredness not just your best in the HEC.

Also SS pointed out that the English do the same as the rabo teams - while you insinuated that only the rabo teams do it.

But don't the Jeff sides play the best English players? THat means they are developement sides going by your logic.

If they can afford them. They also bolster their sides as much as they like with foreign players in order to get the best result possible. The Regions/Provinces concentrate on a core of players from their own nation with normally 5 at most foreign players to bolster numbers. This is because they are primarily controlled by their agreements with the Union where as the Club's in the AP have an agreement to release players but suffer very little control over how they are run by the RFU. The RFU cannot (though they have tried) agree a funding deal to get AP clubs to play English players en masse, the 'gentleman's' in Wales and Ireland does very much that. The RFU have started offering incentives to clubs who average a certain number of English players but as seen by Sale at the end of the season this can be manipulated.

But that's the result of having clubs as opposed to regions or vice versa

That's the result of having 12 pro clubs at the top level.

If Wales had 12 regions, Ireland, Scotland etc... they would all do the same thing.

SP that is my point.It is very hard to get the balance right when each side has differing priorities.

broadlandboy - clubs and regions have different priorities. However this is not about which is better club or region. This is about one specific competition.

Regions/Superclubs/Provinces enter the HEC with the intention of feilding their best sides and winning as many matches as possible. I wold assume the clubs doe the same. So from the point of the HEC every team enters it and aims to win it (or at least get as far as they can). I can't really see where the club v region issue comes up.

It is not a club v regions issue but trying to get the balance right for both so that it is an even starting point.

broadlandboy wrote:It is not a club v regions issue but trying to get the balance right for both so that it is an even starting point.

There are player welfare programmes with limit the amount of game time for Jeff sides with their EPS players, the regions/provinces/supersclubs with their internationals. So they start at the same point. The Jeff sides play against 11 other sides in their league, so do the Rabo sides, so again the same. The only difference is that there are 6 Jeff sides and 8 Rabo sides in the HEC and they are gumbling about that.

I think we will have to agree to disagree.

Some interesting stats - in the last 5HC competitions, amongst English teams only Leicester have been in every competition. Also there have only ever been three French and English teams who have qualified for the HC despite losing more games than winning in their league. There are usually roughly that number every season from the R12.

broadland boy - not being funny, but how would you suggest they are starting from uneven places, and how would you suggest ballenceing the odds?

This argument has gone circles...

From where I'm sitting the English are grumbling about not being able to compete with the Rabo sides, but behind the scenes are really lobying for a larger slice of the pie. Toys have been thrown clean out of the pram, in order to escelate the situation to get what they want, which will be massively comprimised.

The French want a reduced tournament to enable them to improve the Top14, and again will lobby for that and will probably accept some comprimise.

The Rabo teams have now dug their heels into the ground and are willing to replace the 2 powerhouses.

We will see plenty of back pedalling, and blustering from all sides involved before we reach an agreement. I just hope the Rabo unions don't back down first.

Recwatcher

Well Edinburgh are certainly one of those teams, and they made the semi's so does that highlight the strength of the Rabo?!

thebluesmancometh wrote:Recwatcher

Well Edinburgh are certainly one of those teams, and they made the semi's so does that highlight the strength of the Rabo?!

BLuesman - haven't you been reading the thread, Edinburgh only did well in the HEC because the Rabo is a tournamnet that is only for the 2nd sting sides. If Edinburgh were in a real league like the Jeff then they would never have made it out of the group.

This debate about clubs v regions is silly as we can't give out about the rabbo countries being smaller so don't deserve as much money. Then say we have better teams because we have regions and not clubs so have an advantage.

At the end of the day all games are played 15 v 15. No play thinks oh Leinster are a region so our poor club isn't going to win. Its oh how will we get the ball when they run round all day.

The RFU and FFR deceide who enters. The RFU and FFR (though the clubs might not be happy) that the top three teams on their national players league and the top three of their Prem/Top14 league get the HC cup places.

If they did that you might see more national players in a few teams as they might see that as a relastic goal.

As it is the LV winners gets a HC place and no one gives out about that. If dragons won the Lv they wouldn'g give out that they don't get HC because they know that they must finish is the top 3 welsh in the Rabo.

Also on Aroini lets not forget they won the year before and Treviso had their best season ever in the HC. I expect the next two years to really show how strong the Rabo is getting.

This year only Zebra and maybe Dragons will be push overs and I would say the gap between 2-9 could be its smallest in the history of it

SS Clubs tend to have to prioritize domestic league where regions the HEC,eg Edinburgh. As for balancing possibly playing the HEC in one block
Why has this turned into a lets have a go at the English/RFU? Where it is the clubs with France who are unhappy.
Eng/Fra clubs are unhappy so put forward a proposal for change,as most people would,Celt happy so want no change but seem to be unwilling to even talk

Brendan the Dragons aren't in the HEC (if they were I might agree), they should make a decent fist of it in the Amlin though

Smirnoff I was on about the league.

Broad all clubs in all sports put the biggest prize they can get at the top of their goals. SA and NZ were not sad to not win the 3N but Sa were gutted to not win the WC.

In soccer the CL is better then the league.

Clubs and regions are the same thing by a different name.

In super Rugby the SA franchises are really clubs as they are privately funded were as the others are totally run by the unions.

Treviso as far as I know is still the same club they were befor the rabbo but are now considered a super Club or region because they are in the Rabo. Blues and scarlets are clubs but with bigger pulling power then before.

As I think Sam said Tigers use to be a region team that is now a club. London Irish, Welsh and Scottish were region teams that are now clubs.

Brendan wrote:Smirnoff I was on about the league.

Broad all clubs in all sports put the biggest prize they can get at the top of their goals. SA and NZ were not sad to not win the 3N but Sa were gutted to not win the WC.

In soccer the CL is better then the league.

Of course, I just saw your comment about teams between 2-9 (which was a bit of a give away)

SS

I disagree mate, Racing metro were not interested in the HC, and therefore gave away 8 - 10 points, The Blues entered melt down after round 3, and handed Edinburgh points, and well London Irish are distinctly average. If the Edinburgh players had played an extra 6-8 games throughout the season I can't see it would have made a huge difference.

Their best players played international rugby don't forget where a lot of EPL top quality players do not.

So from my POV, Edinburgh in reality probably had a 1 0r 2 game per player advantage over Metro and Irish?

Edinburgh held what 9/10 international players, to L.Irish's 1 or 2? 4 extra games in the Autumn, then 5 6N games before the knockouts. Thats an extra 10 games for half of the Edinburgh first team. Kind of negates the 10 missed Rabo games don't you think?!

I'm still undecieded about dragons in the league. They will either be dead second last or they will be up there with Connacht and Treviso pushing till the end to get into the top half.

Blues are the other unknown as I'm not sure if they will be worse and struggle to stay above Treviso Connacht and maybe Dragons or they will start strong and end well up in the league.

The one thing I am excited by is that the Treviso, Connacht, Edinburgh and hopefully dragons (if they can sort playing form outside wales) will be a match for anyone and will win if you underestimate them so that is good for the league

thebluesmancometh wrote:SS

I disagree mate, Racing metro were not interested in the HC, and therefore gave away 8 - 10 points, The Blues entered melt down after round 3, and handed Edinburgh points, and well London Irish are distinctly average. If the Edinburgh players had played an extra 6-8 games throughout the season I can't see it would have made a huge difference.

Their best players played international rugby don't forget where a lot of EPL top quality players do not.

So from my POV, Edinburgh in reality probably had a 1 0r 2 game per player advantage over Metro and Irish?

Edinburgh held what 9/10 international players, to L.Irish's 1 or 2? 4 extra games in the Autumn, then 5 6N games before the knockouts. Thats an extra 10 games for half of the Edinburgh first team. Kind of negates the 10 missed Rabo games don't you think?!

That is a good point often brushed over. in reality no team can just train and then when it matters turn it on. The rubbish that the Rabo teams only play on HC weeks and the week before surely makes them weaker as it does all the tier 2 nations that don't get to player good times outside the world cup. The Argies will get better for playing in the 4Ns though it will be more games.

As the Rabo has got strong internally over the years the teams have done better in the HC

broadlandboy wrote:SS Clubs tend to have to prioritize domestic league where regions the HEC,eg Edinburgh. As for balancing possibly playing the HEC in one block
Why has this turned into a lets have a go at the English/RFU? Where it is the clubs with France who are unhappy.
Eng/Fra clubs are unhappy so put forward a proposal for change,as most people would,Celt happy so want no change but seem to be unwilling to even talk

Has this turned into a 'lets have a pop at eh JEff/T14' thread? Basically the HEC involves 6 nations, 4 are happy and 2 are not. So realistically the 2 who are unhappy have two options either put up with things as they are, or leave and do things their own way, however it is at the moment seeming like the minority (that are unhappy) are trying to bully the majority (who are happy) into doing things there way.

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

broadlandboy wrote:SS Clubs tend to have to prioritize domestic league where regions the HEC,eg Edinburgh. As for balancing possibly playing the HEC in one block
Why has this turned into a lets have a go at the English/RFU? Where it is the clubs with France who are unhappy.
Eng/Fra clubs are unhappy so put forward a proposal for change,as most people would,Celt happy so want no change but seem to be unwilling to even talk

Has this turned into a 'lets have a pop at eh JEff/T14' thread? Basically the HEC involves 6 nations, 4 are happy and 2 are not. So realistically the 2 who are unhappy have two options either put up with things as they are, or leave and do things their own way, however it is at the moment seeming like the minority (that are unhappy) are trying to bully the majority (who are happy) into doing things there way.

They've said they're not happy, and given a couple of years notice that they're unhappy enough to leave if things aren't changed. If they'd just said "sod this, we're out" (one of your options above) the outrage would be at a crescendo, instead they have said "We're not happy, let's negotiate".

They do have the strength of their home TV markets as a bargaining chip, and it does give them a stronger base for negotiations than if it was just 2 vs 4 - to not use that advantage in a commercial negotiation would be just plain daft.

They do have the strength of their home TV markets as a bargaining chip, and it does give them a stronger base for negotiations than if it was just 2 vs 4 - to not use that advantage in a commercial negotiation would be just plain daft.

+1 KD.

SS It IS the question whether it is a club or regional competition.You say 4 nations are happy and 2 are not, where it could be said that at least 12 clubs (Jeff/Top14 assured entrants) are not and a max of 12 regions(max number from Robo)are. So half are unhappy

32 teams
8 groups of 4

Top 9 teams from the Jeff, Rabo and Top 14

5 places up for grabs for the best of the rest decided on euro rankings.

Do away with the Amlin and LV.

Easy.

KD
+2

Kiwireddevil wrote:

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

broadlandboy wrote:SS Clubs tend to have to prioritize domestic league where regions the HEC,eg Edinburgh. As for balancing possibly playing the HEC in one block
Why has this turned into a lets have a go at the English/RFU? Where it is the clubs with France who are unhappy.
Eng/Fra clubs are unhappy so put forward a proposal for change,as most people would,Celt happy so want no change but seem to be unwilling to even talk

Has this turned into a 'lets have a pop at eh JEff/T14' thread? Basically the HEC involves 6 nations, 4 are happy and 2 are not. So realistically the 2 who are unhappy have two options either put up with things as they are, or leave and do things their own way, however it is at the moment seeming like the minority (that are unhappy) are trying to bully the majority (who are happy) into doing things there way.

They've said they're not happy, and given a couple of years notice that they're unhappy enough to leave if things aren't changed. If they'd just said "sod this, we're out" (one of your options above) the outrage would be at a crescendo, instead they have said "We're not happy, let's negotiate".

They do have the strength of their home TV markets as a bargaining chip, and it does give them a stronger base for negotiations than if it was just 2 vs 4 - to not use that advantage in a commercial negotiation would be just plain daft.

They have not taken their ball and gone home because they realistically don't want to do that! What they want is for the Rabo sides to say ok, we will do what you want us to do, and we will take less money and we will promise not to let Leinster/Munster win it all the time.

HERSH wrote:32 teams
8 groups of 4

Top 9 teams from the Jeff, Rabo and Top 14

5 places up for grabs for the best of the rest decided on euro rankings.

Do away with the Amlin and LV.

Easy.

The french would never agree to an increase in the size of the HEC, and not sure where the space to play the extra games would come from (unless there's no extra round - haven't looked into it). Otherwise it would be very good