Reasons to love the PRO 12.

by Kingshu Fri Jul 27, 2012 11:03 am

First topic message reminder :

Its getting near starting time for the League, and I can't wait.

This year looks to be gearing up to be the most competative yet.

Terviso and Connacht are improving and look to be pushing the established big teams of Leinster, Munster, Ulster, Ospreys, Scarlets and Blues, and will be aiming to finish in the top 6, the big six will all be hoping for a play off finish. Going to be a lot of tight games, but I don't think we will get to many shock results. IE, if Connacht beat Ospreys it would be an upset, in the past a shock, but now its not so much of a shock.

One of the reasons I like the Pro 12 is that the teams are split into 4 unions, and all 4 want to have there teams at the top of the table, this means that is a unions teams are not doing well they will put more resources in to try and bring them up, making the league always competative. Look at how the SRU and helped Edinburgh and Glasgow improve over the last few years, likewise IRFU and Connacht.

Italy and pushed Terviso on, they have taken the decision that Aironi weren't going to be make it, and have launched Zebre, who will be in for a very tough first year, but this shows how the different unions in a league make it more competative.

IE if it was a one union league, a team that isn't doing well would sit about the bottom maybe go down come up, and yo yo for a time, but if a team is at/near bottom of Pro 12, the Union will try to focus resources on it to try and move it up the table, any other team could hope for more Union support and would have to hope for a sugar daddy or such like to come along.

It also has some of the best teams in Europe, people may say the first teams don't play enough in the league, but this is argued that they play as many as in any other league, but the teams do have more strength in depth, for the PRO 12.

I can't wait, while I see Leinster as being the best team in it and very likely to top the table 2-6 is very close and 6-11 will be very close as well, all to play for.

PS please don't turn this into a Pro 12 v other Leagues debate, but instead look at the Pro 12's unique features that make it good or bad.

by **Biltong** Wed Aug 01, 2012 4:35 pm

Chunky Norwich wrote:There is nothing to love about this turgid, poorly run, joke of a league.

So you are a rugby Snob? Whistle

by Scrumdown Wed Aug 01, 2012 8:06 pm

The best thing about the rabo direct is that it is in the main controlled by the unions. As a result it is not flooded by foreign players who have seen their best days. Rather, it is the league where the current internationals of the 4 competing nations play and also where the future internationals are discovered. The top 14 and aviva in contrast looks stale with players who have been on the scene for a number of years who are either never going to play inetrnational rugby or who have retired from that level of rugby and are just winding down.

by Sgt_Pooly Wed Aug 01, 2012 8:25 pm

Scrumdown wrote:The best thing about the rabo direct is that it is in the main controlled by the unions. As a result it is not flooded by foreign players who have seen their best days. Rather, it is the league where the current internationals of the 4 competing nations play and also where the future internationals are discovered. The top 14 and aviva in contrast looks stale with players who have been on the scene for a number of years who are either never going to play inetrnational rugby or who have retired from that level of rugby and are just winding down.

Or don't play would be a better statement.

You cannot compare the T14 & Aviva to the Rabo. The T14 & Aviva are competitive leagues, week in week out.....the Rabo isn't. If the top teams put out their best sides week in week out it would be a fantastic competion, but they just don't.

by Feckless Rogue Wed Aug 01, 2012 8:55 pm

Sgt_Pooly wrote:
Scrumdown wrote:The best thing about the rabo direct is that it is in the main controlled by the unions. As a result it is not flooded by foreign players who have seen their best days. Rather, it is the league where the current internationals of the 4 competing nations play and also where the future internationals are discovered. The top 14 and aviva in contrast looks stale with players who have been on the scene for a number of years who are either never going to play inetrnational rugby or who have retired from that level of rugby and are just winding down.

Or don't play would be a better statement.

You cannot compare the T14 & Aviva to the Rabo. The T14 & Aviva are competitive leagues, week in week out.....the Rabo isn't. If the top teams put out their best sides week in week out it would be a fantastic competion, but they just don't.

There have been 3 different winners in the last 4 years. Leinster, Europes best team, have lost the playoff final 3 times in a row. So in fact, it is a competitive league. And playing your 15 best players every single week would be ridiculous. They'd burn out. No team does that in any league.

It also produces the most attractive rugby so raspberry

by Scrumdown Wed Aug 01, 2012 8:58 pm

It is true that the teams in the rabo do not play their full complement of internationals throughout the season and this is mainly due to there being no threat of relegation. However, i myself do not see this as a negative as it gives a chance for those acaedemy players to show what they can do and supporters enjoy seeing players coming through to the 1st team through the academies. I would also like to point out that for the last 5 years england has had one of the best under20 sides in the world, second only to new zealand. However we see hardly any of them making an impression in the aviva due to a lack of opportunities. There is a balance to be had and i think the rabo is striking that balance quite well at the moment.

by Thomond Wed Aug 01, 2012 9:02 pm

The Jeff is a better league, the Rabo has better teams in my view (mainly down to the Irish Whistle

)

by sugarNspikes Wed Aug 01, 2012 9:07 pm

Kingshu wrote:PS please don't turn this into a Pro 12 v other Leagues debate

Oh, the humanity!

by Sgt_Pooly Wed Aug 01, 2012 9:24 pm

" I would also like to point out that for the last 5 years england has had one of the best under20 sides in the world, second only to new zealand. However we see hardly any of them making an impression in the aviva due to a lack of opportunities"

You obviously watch little Aviva rugby. From our WC squad last year they've been a number of players who've broke through (20/21 year olds)

Christian Wade, Jamie Elliott, Charlie Matthews, Elliott Daley, Rob Buchanan, Matt Kvesic, George Ford, Chris Cook..........etc

by **profitius** Wed Aug 01, 2012 9:38 pm

I think we can all agree that the Rabo is different to the Jeff/T14. Therefore its kind of useless trying to compare them all the time. The English fans prefer the Jeff and the "Keltic" fans prefer the Rabo for obvious reasons. Its like comparing apples and oranges.

by LordDowlais Thu Aug 02, 2012 7:54 am

Rugby is a squad game is it not ? I am getting fed up of the bull being spoken on here about not playing internationals, Ospreys will quite regularly play Adam Jones, Ryan Jones, Ian Evans, Alyn Wyn Jones, Dan Biggar, Ashley Beck, Justin Tuperic, Rhys Webb, in the Rabo it's not our fault we have quality youngsters coming through the ranks instead of southern hemisphere players, the fact that we have so many youngsters making the breakthrough here in Wales is what makes it so exciting for us, you cannot beat seeing local talent proving they have what it takes for your team.

by Kingshu Thu Aug 02, 2012 9:01 am

I think that what people are forgetting about is that the Pro 12 has a lot more International players per team than either the Avivia or the Top 14.

Can't remember or find the stats for how many players in the World cup or 6 Nations come from the PRO 12, but it dwarfs the other 2.

in Both leagues the international players are limited to about 30 games (club and country) a year, it just more obvious in PRO12 as more teams miss their internationals as they have more internationals than the average Aviva team.

Leicester Tigers are similar to a PRO 12 team, in that they have lots of internationals, and can't play them every game (they play them in the League about as often as a Pro 12 team does) and has to relay on squad depth. Now we hear Tigers fans complain that they miss players (due to internationals) when other teams don't and can struggle, I bet they would love to be in the PRO12 were nearly every team is similarally disadvantaged when the internationals are called up.

Taking that into account you could say the PRO12 is a fairer League as nearly every team is disadvantaged, not just the top few.

Really you could think of it as a League of 12 Leicester Tigers's. As each team is packed with internationals, and will miss these for large parts of the season and need to rely of depth. I'd bet the average international player for Tigers plays in the League, as many times as his PRO 12 counterpart.

by LordDowlais Thu Aug 02, 2012 9:55 am

Kingshu wrote:I think that what people are forgetting about is that the Pro 12 has a lot more International players per team than either the Avivia or the Top 14.

Can't remember or find the stats for how many players in the World cup or 6 Nations come from the PRO 12, but it dwarfs the other 2.

in Both leagues the international players are limited to about 30 games (club and country) a year, it just more obvious in PRO12 as more teams miss their internationals as they have more internationals than the average Aviva team.

Leicester Tigers are similar to a PRO 12 team, in that they have lots of internationals, and can't play them every game (they play them in the League about as often as a Pro 12 team does) and has to relay on squad depth. Now we hear Tigers fans complain that they miss players (due to internationals) when other teams don't and can struggle, I bet they would love to be in the PRO12 were nearly every team is similarally disadvantaged when the internationals are called up.

Taking that into account you could say the PRO12 is a fairer League as nearly every team is disadvantaged, not just the top few.

Really you could think of it as a League of 12 Leicester Tigers's. As each team is packed with internationals, and will miss these for large parts of the season and need to rely of depth. I'd bet the average international player for Tigers plays in the League, as many times as his PRO 12 counterpart.

Well said. Ale

by munkian Thu Aug 02, 2012 11:44 am

The Welsh boys played 20 international games last season, course they aren't going to play every Rabbo game

Plus the Jeff is spread over 12 English teams....

by ScarletSpiderman Thu Aug 02, 2012 11:51 am

munkian wrote:The Welsh boys played 20 international games last season, course they aren't going to play every Rabbo game

Plus the Jeff is spread over 12 English teams....

And one Welsh team (last season)

by LordDowlais Thu Aug 02, 2012 12:55 pm

ScarletSpiderman wrote:
munkian wrote:The Welsh boys played 20 international games last season, course they aren't going to play every Rabbo game

Plus the Jeff is spread over 12 English teams....

And one Welsh team (last season)

Plus all the Welsh players that are not good enough for our league but are setting the world alight in their far superior league. Rolling Eyes

by sugarNspikes Thu Aug 02, 2012 1:00 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
ScarletSpiderman wrote:
munkian wrote:The Welsh boys played 20 international games last season, course they aren't going to play every Rabbo game

Plus the Jeff is spread over 12 English teams....

And one Welsh team (last season)

Plus all the Welsh players that are not good enough for our league but are setting the world alight in their far superior league.

To be fair, you've got plenty of English guys in the Welsh national side so it all evens out.

by ScarletSpiderman Thu Aug 02, 2012 1:29 pm

sugar - yeah but not as many as you have saffers and kiwis.

by sugarNspikes Thu Aug 02, 2012 1:34 pm

ScarletSpiderman wrote:sugar - yeah but not as many as you have saffers and kiwis.

I think it's actually about the same. International rugby is a real melting pot these days.

by ScarletSpiderman Thu Aug 02, 2012 1:37 pm

sNs - lets be realistic, there are no English born raised, eductated and then brought over for residency players in the Welsh squad.

by sugarNspikes Thu Aug 02, 2012 1:38 pm

ScarletSpiderman wrote:sNs - lets be realistic, there are no English born raised, eductated and then brought over for residency players in the Welsh squad.

by ScarletSpiderman Thu Aug 02, 2012 1:40 pm

sugarNspikes wrote:
ScarletSpiderman wrote:sNs - lets be realistic, there are no English born raised, eductated and then brought over for residency players in the Welsh squad.

All our players spell like me hence Welsh.

by sugarNspikes Thu Aug 02, 2012 1:42 pm

ScarletSpiderman wrote:
sugarNspikes wrote:
ScarletSpiderman wrote:sNs - lets be realistic, there are no English born raised, eductated and then brought over for residency players in the Welsh squad.

All our players spell like me hence Welsh.

A proper Welshman wouldn't use the word 'hence'. Imposter!

Unless, of course, you meant 'Henson'? Wink

by Smirnoffpriest Thu Aug 02, 2012 2:14 pm

The word Henson is always on the tip of the tongue of every Welsh man SnS

by Cari Thu Aug 02, 2012 6:10 pm

Not long now! Reasons to love the PRO 12. - Page 3 3933776953

by Feckless Rogue Thu Aug 02, 2012 6:20 pm

Can't wait. Reasons to love the PRO 12. - Page 3 3933776953

by Kingshu Fri Aug 03, 2012 8:28 am

So its done the usual thread Cycles, Pro 12 V Aviva, then Welsh V English.

now maybe we can concentrate on the reasons to love the PRO 12.

I love the pro 12 cos my team play in it.

by Smirnoffpriest Fri Aug 03, 2012 9:45 am

I love it coz it's so competitive and it has some really exciting rugby at times. Also it's getting stronger every year

by ScarletSpiderman Fri Aug 03, 2012 1:11 pm

Kingshu wrote:So its done the usual thread Cycles, Pro 12 V Aviva, then Welsh V English.

now maybe we can concentrate on the reasons to love the PRO 12.

I love the pro 12 cos my team play in it.

Pretty much agree with that!

One thing I do like is that you get your local derby matches (Scarlets V Ospreys) and then some other rivalaries with sides form other nations (Munster - constantly pipping us by a point or two, Ulster - since the 03-04 season really).

by ScarletSpiderman Fri Aug 03, 2012 1:24 pm

I am getting excited now, but will be even more excited when the friendlies kick off properly in a weeks time (and when my season ticket comes).

by thebluesmancometh Fri Aug 03, 2012 6:22 pm

I don't love the pro 12, I won't pretend the rugby is top notch, I refuse to acknowledge all games will be tight, I and will not agree that it is good for Welsh rugby!!!

by Scrumdown Fri Aug 03, 2012 6:57 pm

the aviva league is now at least two years behind the rabo direct in purely rugby terms. The rabo direct is modelling itself on the southern hemisphere and is producing its own players in increasing and impressive numbers. It is becoming an exporter of professional rugby players and coaches, but such are the development structures now in place particularly in wales and ireland, that the new breed coming through are raising the standards in the rabo higher and higher. Whilst the rabo is driven forward by future and current stars of the game the aviva is lumbered with yesterdays men, most of whom if good enough would have accepted contracts to play in the top14.

by maestegmafia Fri Aug 03, 2012 7:30 pm

Th thing I love about the Pro 12 is that we get the opportunity to blood so many young players. Many of us enjoy seeing the future talents as much as the current stars.

Other leagues deem young players too risky an option.

by Sgt_Pooly Fri Aug 03, 2012 7:43 pm

"Other leagues deem young players too risky an option."

Which leagues are these?

Some of you boys are on a different planet and are unable distinguish between a strong league and strong club.

by **Notch** Fri Aug 03, 2012 8:09 pm

The Pro 12 is necessarily the way it is, to be honest. The nations that constitute the Pro12 have very different needs to France and England.

With a smaller pool of top-level players and a limited number of professional teams Scotland, Italy, Ireland and Wales need to a) put a bigger emphasis on player welfare and b) have their professional sides rotate their teams more because there are less chances for youngsters to make their mark than in the 12/14 team leagues of England and France.

The Pro12 suits us just fine in that regard. I actually find the quality to be pretty good, considering. Certainly a step below the Heineken Cup but you'll usually get a few pretty good games in a round. The quality is certainly rising anyway.

Yes, sometimes as an Ulster fan I get frustrated when players aren't available, but I think the IRFUs approach to the Pro12 is right. By enforcing occasional rests on players it makes us less likely to have injury problems in the test windows and gives a younger player valuable gametime.

by Sgt_Pooly Fri Aug 03, 2012 8:12 pm

Good valid points Notch, I wouldn't disagree with any of that really

by Scrumdown Fri Aug 03, 2012 10:24 pm

Notch, you say that it is a step below heineken cup level but it is the irish sides from the rabo who are setting the standards in the heineken cup! You seem to be another one of those people who have been brainwashed by the hype surrounding the aviva provided by sky television. The facts are there for everyone to see. Even the scottish sides are now beating the english in their own back yards and both glasgow and edinburgh have strengthened their squads for next year.

by **Notch** Fri Aug 03, 2012 10:33 pm

Apparently I've been brainwashed by a league I don't watch every weekend or rate particularly highly. Got to love the internet! Smile

We are, but we step up in the Heineken Cup. The Irish provinces definitely go up a gear in those games. You'd only see the provinces in absolute top gear 5 or 6 times a year in the Pro12.

by Thomond Fri Aug 03, 2012 10:37 pm

The Pro 12 is not as good a league as the Aviva, not as competitive at least and doesn't have the best players on show a lot of the time. The teams in the Rabo are better as we have seen from the HC (you could make a fair point that that's partially down to the ability to rest some players in the rabo)

by Sgt_Pooly Fri Aug 03, 2012 10:51 pm

Agreed the Irish sides are definitely setting the standards in the HC, but the Welsh are not.

The Irish and Scottish provinces are able to rest key players in the Rabo (due to the standard not been so high?) and step up and succeed in the HC.

This begs a question.....why do the Welsh fail to do this?

by Scrumdown Fri Aug 03, 2012 11:10 pm

The hammerings dished out to northampton leicester and bath in last years heineken cup aswell as the loss sufferred by harlequins to connacht has damaged the image of the aviva. A bit of rest and everything will be fine, you say. There was a gulf in class in these games. The aviva is indeed competitive but it is also mediocre.

by Sgt_Pooly Fri Aug 03, 2012 11:18 pm

It was not a great year for the AP clubs last but Saints reached the final the year before and I have no doubt the English clubs will out perform the Welsh.

This does not prove anything though. Sides in the AP cannot afford to rest players like the Rabo teams do so will always suffer at the tail end.

The Irish sides have balanced this out perfectly over the last few seasons though and have to get maximum respect for this. This does not give every nation involved in the Rabo bragging rights though I'm afraid.

by Scrumdown Fri Aug 03, 2012 11:58 pm

But rabo players play 12 international test matches a year on top of their provincial commitments so are hardly rested in cotton wool! An aviva premiership game would be a walk in the park for players who are used to playing australia and new zealand.

by **profitius** Sat Aug 04, 2012 12:00 am

I don't think the Jeff is mediocre. The English teams used to dominate Europe and may do again but whats happened in the meantime is the Rabo countries have made massive improvements in terms of producing higher quality players and in the last 3 or 4 years they've adapted a more professional approach in the marketing of the league.

This coming season theres excitement among the fans because of the strengthening of the (most) squads which should mean a higher standard of rugby again. The consistency of the rugby is also improving.

Theres still plenty of room for improvement in terms of playing standards, crowds, sponsorship and marketing of the league as well as getting the recognition it deserves.

by **Notch** Sat Aug 04, 2012 12:04 am

Scrumdown wrote:The hammerings dished out to northampton leicester and bath in last years heineken cup aswell as the loss sufferred by harlequins to connacht has damaged the image of the aviva. A bit of rest and everything will be fine, you say. There was a gulf in class in these games. The aviva is indeed competitive but it is also mediocre.

The Heineken Cup isn't necessarily a reflection of domestic leagues strength week in, week out. The Pro12 teams often go up a gear in Europe. The league isn't as hotly contested as our pool games. I do think the Pro12 has caught up to the Aviva Prem in terms of entertainment and quality mind you.

One thing thats damaging for the league is Wales' insistence of playing occasional test matches outside the international window.

by LeinsterFan4life Sat Aug 04, 2012 12:06 am

Scrumdown stop with this hatred. AP is a good league with a great set of fans. Yes i rather the rabbo but its always a great occassion when leinster play a team from the AP in the HC. We shouldn't be slaming each others league.

by **profitius** Sat Aug 04, 2012 12:09 am

Notch wrote:
One thing thats damaging for the league is Wales' insistence of playing occasional test matches outside the international window.

I think thats more damaging for the Welsh teams than the league itself. In the future I can see Wales stopping this especially if they start to miss out on playoff places or home playoff matches by a few points.

by Scrumdown Sat Aug 04, 2012 12:22 am

I agree with you that the AP does have great supporters and the atmosphere at the games is impressive. However, the standards are not high. There are welsh players making a good living in the aviva who would never get a contract in wales.

by Morgannwg Sat Aug 04, 2012 12:48 am

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Agreed the Irish sides are definitely setting the standards in the HC, but the Welsh are not.

The Irish and Scottish provinces are able to rest key players in the Rabo (due to the standard not been so high?) and step up and succeed in the HC.

This begs a question.....why do the Welsh fail to do this?

Am I missing something? We are posting on a thread about the Pro 12 starting in the new season and you turn up posting petty, keyboard snipes at the Welsh. I see somebody has already mentioned squad rotation so there isn't any point in me going over it. However, I notice you also say the Scottish 'provinces' step up and succeed in the HC. When? They've been trash (no offence intended) every year, apart from Edinburgh last season. Still, they didn't get further than the Welsh teams have done in the competition. A WUM very lacking in common knowledge indeed, but I understand it was just a snipe. Now I know your international team has lost to Wales twice on the bounce without scoring a single try but that doesn't give you a right to hold a massive grudge. Very Happy

Sgt_Pooly wrote:It was not a great year for the AP clubs last but Saints reached the final the year before and I have no doubt the English clubs will out perform the Welsh.

Yeah yeah, the Saints reached the final some years ago which means the garden of red roses is blossoming right? That team also had 50 points put past them by a Munster a few months back; who by their standards had a bad year and a bit of a transitional era. Erm

Which English clubs will outperform the Welsh? Tigers are the best team in England every year, but are grouped with the Ospreys, Toulouse and Treviso. I think they will find it difficult. Quins are a classy outfit, but might get smashed by a big French team again, which would harm their chances of outperforming anyone let alone us Welsh b***tards. Sarries, hmm I don't know. They are easy to work out, but can be very hard to beat on the field; I guess that's the SA players carrrying the team. The rest (including Saints) are just very overhyped. I don't see which are better.

by Smirnoffpriest Sat Aug 04, 2012 1:02 am

Apparently the WRU needs the money generated by the 4th match - plus the Scarlets in particular but also the Blues have been missing out on playoff spots (and HEC qualification) by a couple of points for the past few years

by gowales Sat Aug 04, 2012 8:04 am

Please stop commenting Scrumdown. You really don't know what you're talking about

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