Reasons to love the PRO 12.

First topic message reminder :

Its getting near starting time for the League, and I can't wait.

This year looks to be gearing up to be the most competative yet.

Terviso and Connacht are improving and look to be pushing the established big teams of Leinster, Munster, Ulster, Ospreys, Scarlets and Blues, and will be aiming to finish in the top 6, the big six will all be hoping for a play off finish. Going to be a lot of tight games, but I don't think we will get to many shock results. IE, if Connacht beat Ospreys it would be an upset, in the past a shock, but now its not so much of a shock.

One of the reasons I like the Pro 12 is that the teams are split into 4 unions, and all 4 want to have there teams at the top of the table, this means that is a unions teams are not doing well they will put more resources in to try and bring them up, making the league always competative. Look at how the SRU and helped Edinburgh and Glasgow improve over the last few years, likewise IRFU and Connacht.

Italy and pushed Terviso on, they have taken the decision that Aironi weren't going to be make it, and have launched Zebre, who will be in for a very tough first year, but this shows how the different unions in a league make it more competative.

IE if it was a one union league, a team that isn't doing well would sit about the bottom maybe go down come up, and yo yo for a time, but if a team is at/near bottom of Pro 12, the Union will try to focus resources on it to try and move it up the table, any other team could hope for more Union support and would have to hope for a sugar daddy or such like to come along.

It also has some of the best teams in Europe, people may say the first teams don't play enough in the league, but this is argued that they play as many as in any other league, but the teams do have more strength in depth, for the PRO 12.

I can't wait, while I see Leinster as being the best team in it and very likely to top the table 2-6 is very close and 6-11 will be very close as well, all to play for.

PS please don't turn this into a Pro 12 v other Leagues debate, but instead look at the Pro 12's unique features that make it good or bad.

beshocked wrote:John Gregan you are joking about it but statistically the Pro12 are bound to be missing more of their top players for longer periods.

The Top 14 cater for one international side. The AP cater for one international side. The Pro12 caters for 4 international sides.

Say hypothetically it's a 30 man squad. 30 x 4 is 120.

That's 120 players missing from the Pro12 during international windows.

Obviously this will bring down the quality.

And that's why people don't want to watch Pro 12 matches.

beshocked wrote:John Gregan you are joking about it but statistically the Pro12 are bound to be missing more of their top players for longer periods.

The Top 14 cater for one international side. The AP cater for one international side. The Pro12 caters for 4 international sides.

Say hypothetically it's a 30 man squad. 30 x 4 is 120.

That's 120 players missing from the Pro12 during international windows.

Obviously this will bring down the quality.

Agree with you completely..............any competition will be hugely diminished with that number of players missing for large chunks of a season...........The Pro 12 also suffers from players being rested ahead of Heineken Cup/Amlin challenge games.

That's not to say it's not a well run league.................just for the players/fans (of the bigger teams especially), it's not that important...............

Reasons to love the Pro12

1. The Ospreys are one of the most successful Pro12 clubs of all time with 4 titles and 1 LV cup to their name - all this in their 9 year history.

2.Great for player development for internationals - look at the likes of North,Denton,Gray,Bowe etc.

3.Excellent conditions for preparing for the HC. Leinster are a great example of this. Resting the likes of BOD,Heaslip,SOB, Sexton. It's worked wonders for them.

4.4 countries is better than 1. You get the best of 4 countries. The Pro12 is doing it's bit to help develop rugby in Italy and Scotland in particular.

5. The smaller club's attendances can only grow

6. The Pro12 is a young competition getting bigger and better all the time.

7.The smaller Pro12 clubs are starting to perform better in the HC.

Etc.

gowales wrote:

beshocked wrote:John Gregan you are joking about it but statistically the Pro12 are bound to be missing more of their top players for longer periods.

The Top 14 cater for one international side. The AP cater for one international side. The Pro12 caters for 4 international sides.

Say hypothetically it's a 30 man squad. 30 x 4 is 120.

That's 120 players missing from the Pro12 during international windows.

Obviously this will bring down the quality.

And that's why people don't want to watch Pro 12 matches.

It's simple really. People want to see their favourite and best players. Normally these are the NH international stars. There are some very good SH players who are available all year round but are they really going to get the same draw as a BOD,Warburton,North,Denton,Sexton,Ferris? Ok some like Nacewa,Pienaar,Elsom might but they are the exception not the norm.

I support my team no matter who is playing, I cheer for them more when we are missing Toby etc as they have to work harder.

It's a squad game and we have a young small squad so can't really afford to rest many players like the bigger richer teams

Munkian - that's because you're one of the diehards. For the more casual Welsh rugby fan who'll shout madly for the Welsh international side but be largely uninterested in the regions, it's a different matter in my opinion.

Problem is, there's alot more of the English than there is of us Welsh and the English/Irish clubs have been around a lot longer than our Regions have.

I'm sure there's plenty at Twinkenham who are there just to be seen and don't follow a club.

Lots of my mate's will cheer for England but don't follow an English club.

I've actually converted a few to follow Rabbo teams

Arent u forgetting that many italian (and some scottish) internationals play in france and england, 5 welsh internationals will play in france next year, and theres a few argie,fiji,tongan and samoan internationals in france/england.As a result there wouldnt b whole squads with players soley from the rabo. And as such its unlikely that all av/top14 teams would only have english/french players.

Ok fine smirnoffpriest it's not strictly 120. It's still a lot more than the AP and Top 14.

John Cregan wrote:

Smirnoffpriest wrote:Maybe you should watch 7's if squad rotation turns your stomach so much!

But if not you should sit back and enjoy some really competitive games in the Pro12 and HEC

Thanks for telling me what i should enjoy but i think i'll make up my own mind thanks !!

That 7's stuff is just silly..................id prefer watch Tag Rugby!!

Apologies i didnt mean to tell u what to watch/enjoy, but 7s is the only similar sport/competition that doesnt have much squad rotation. Sorry if it came out aggresive

beshocked wrote:Ok fine smirnoffpriest it's not strictly 120. It's still a lot more than the AP and Top 14.

But how much more is it, the top 14 teams will lose all their french,english,italian,scottish,welsh and irish players (as well as any SH internationals) and dont forget leicester dont just lose dan cole they lose castro as well. While Wales regions could lose 25/4 the french could lose around 60 or 70/12 (as some clubs may not have internationals) theres not a huge difference, except for the irish but then they have the lua luas, howletts and piennars as well as an exciting batch of irish youngsters and strong squads to attract fans

Smirnoffpriest wrote:

John Cregan wrote:

Smirnoffpriest wrote:Maybe you should watch 7's if squad rotation turns your stomach so much!

But if not you should sit back and enjoy some really competitive games in the Pro12 and HEC

Thanks for telling me what i should enjoy but i think i'll make up my own mind thanks !!

That 7's stuff is just silly..................id prefer watch Tag Rugby!!

Apologies i didnt mean to tell u what to watch/enjoy, but 7s is the only similar sport/competition that doesnt have much squad rotation. Sorry if it came out aggresive

Smirnoff. I did not take it that way at all.............

John Cregan wrote:

Smirnoffpriest wrote:

John Cregan wrote:

Smirnoffpriest wrote:Maybe you should watch 7's if squad rotation turns your stomach so much!

But if not you should sit back and enjoy some really competitive games in the Pro12 and HEC

Thanks for telling me what i should enjoy but i think i'll make up my own mind thanks !!

That 7's stuff is just silly..................id prefer watch Tag Rugby!!

Apologies i didnt mean to tell u what to watch/enjoy, but 7s is the only similar sport/competition that doesnt have much squad rotation. Sorry if it came out aggresive

Smirnoff. I did not take it that way at all.............

No worries, in hindsight the 'turns you're stomach' phrase was prehaps ill advised and poorly thought out

John I don't mean this to sound disrespectful but are you a rugby fan or a Munster fan?

I think its a fair question. I like you live in Limerick and buckets of my friends are Munster fans. They go to the Heineken Cup matches, they know all the Munster players, how the team should do and have a good knowledge of the team and really like it.

But they won't watch Pro 12 games as they players they know and like are gone away.

I think if somebody is a rugby fan it shouldn't matter if there is mild rotation and it really isn't that much rotation.

LeinsterFan4life wrote:This is the year the pro 12 becomes the top domestic competition in europe. Its gonna be epic.

Is that a tongue in cheek comment?

You may have some great sides but the Pro 12 is well behind the T14 & AP in terms of intensity & quality. Just look at some of the line ups the top teams put out for half the season. I think Ferris for example made 4 appearences all season!

Sgt Poole, if you look into it you'll see the best players play for their teams roughly the same amount in the Pro12 as the AV

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:This is the year the pro 12 becomes the top domestic competition in europe. Its gonna be epic.

Is that a tongue in cheek comment?

You may have some great sides but the Pro 12 is well behind the T14 & AP in terms of intensity & quality. Just look at some of the line ups the top teams put out for half the season. I think Ferris for example made 4 appearences all season!

It was just me getting excited. You think the pro 12 is well behind the AP and top 14. Thats your opinion and thats fine but for me i much rather watch a pro 12 game than any game in the AP and top 14. Did you not see the playoffs in the top 14. Some of the worst rugby ive ever seen.

Fair enough Leinster, I would rather watch T14 & AP to Pro12 though. I just don't think the quality is that great generally.

Smirnoffpriest wrote:Sgt Poole, if you look into it you'll see the best players play for their teams roughly the same amount in the Pro12 as the AV

As a comparison (similar position, Int etc)

Ferris played 4 Pro 12 games
Robshaw played 18 AP games

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Fair enough Leinster, I would rather watch T14 & AP to Pro12 though. I just don't think the quality is that great generally.

Smirnoffpriest wrote:Sgt Poole, if you look into it you'll see the best players play for their teams roughly the same amount in the Pro12 as the AV

As a comparison (similar position, Int etc)

Ferris played 4 Pro 12 games
Robshaw played 18 AP games

Just out of interest do you watch many pro 12 games?

Well you can look at any 2 players and slant an argument - but I compared about 8 international Leicester players and compared them with similar Ospreys players and they were all in the 9-15 game bracket for last season (and seeing as people seem to say that you have to play your best side EVERY game in the AV and there's 30 odd games a season, then it's a strange statistic).

Of course you could look at George North and say he's got 26 appearances for the Scarlets and 24 appearances for Wales, but then that doesn't say that he's been injured a lot between Wales camps but has still managed 14 and 12 appearances in 2 seasons (and 1 of those in a WC year).

Try comparing Leicester players to 1st choice UK players at Leinster and Ospreys (obviously remembering that players like Dan Cole won't play every game)

Tell you what. I won't speak for other countries but basically this was Ireland's test team in 6 Nations.

01 Healy - 8 Appearances
02 Best - 4 Appearances
03 Ross - 9 Appearances
04 Ryan - 9 Appearances
05 O'Connell - 6 Appearances
06 Ferris - 4 Appearances
07 O'Brien - 6 Appearances
08 Heaslip - 7 Appearances
09 Murray - 8 Appearances
10 Sexton - 8 Appearances
11 Earls - 7 Appearances
12 Darcy - 8 Appearances
13 O'Driscoll - 4 Appearances
14 Bowe - 7 Appearances
15 Kearney - 7Appearances

Ok there were injuries to some players and that.

But the average Pro 12 appearances for that team last season was 6.8 Appearances.

But its understandable. Most of that team played in 9 European Cup matches as well as another massive amount of international matches. From June 2011 to June 2012 Ireland had I think 18 test matches.

Kidney picks the same team all the time so the guys have to rest somewhere.

I'm coming at it from a Welsh perspective Red Stag and most of the Ospreys were in the 9-15 game bracket (withstanding injuries) - I'll try and do a comparison with Welsh 1st teamers in a bit

I do yea, my dad is an Ulster fan so catch them a fair bit.

I wouldn't make the comment if uninformed, I watch most leagues so feel I have a pretty balanced view. I'm not having a go, I just don't think the Pro 12 is a strong league. If the clubs fielded full strength sides when possible it probably would be but I've found this doesn't often happen.

Smirnoffpriest wrote:I'm coming at it from a Welsh perspective Red Stag and most of the Ospreys were in the 9-15 game bracket (withstanding injuries) - I'll try and do a comparison with Welsh 1st teamers in a bit

I think this is right SP (top of my head)

Dan Cole - 14 AP games
Adam Jones - 6 Pro 12 games

I understand these are one offs but in general in the AP & T14 teams tend to field their strongest lineups. I find that this tends to be the complete opposite in the Pro 12 with clubs preferring to field their strongest sides for the HC.

I was directing this at the best sides in the Pro 12 by the way so it's probably not the case with the Welsh regions

Sgt_Pooly wrote:I do yea, my dad is an Ulster fan so catch them a fair bit.

I wouldn't make the comment if uninformed, I watch most leagues so feel I have a pretty balanced view. I'm not having a go, I just don't think the Pro 12 is a strong league. If the clubs fielded full strength sides when possible it probably would be but I've found this doesn't often happen.

Fair enough. Of course your going to think your own league is better and id be worried if you didnt. But is there any need to come onto a pro12 thread and start telling us that our league is inferior?

ST Pooly,

You are half right.

They will tend to rotate. I feel as though your suggesting that B teams are being sent out.

Munster for example could send out this team:

01 Marcus Horan
02 Mike Sherry
03 BJ Botha
04 O'Callaghan
05 O'Connell
06 O'Mahony
07 O'Donnell
08 Coughlan
09 Stringer
10 O'Gara
11 Zebo
12 Downey
13 Laulala
14 O'Dea
15 Hurley

And they have rested Wian du Preez, Conor Murray, Donnacha Ryan, CJ Stander, Keith Earls, Doug Howlett.

LeinsterFan4life wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:I do yea, my dad is an Ulster fan so catch them a fair bit.

I wouldn't make the comment if uninformed, I watch most leagues so feel I have a pretty balanced view. I'm not having a go, I just don't think the Pro 12 is a strong league. If the clubs fielded full strength sides when possible it probably would be but I've found this doesn't often happen.

Fair enough. Of course your going to think your own league is better and id be worried if you didnt. But is there any need to come onto a pro12 thread and start telling us that our league is inferior?

LF4L,

I think thats an over the top reaction.

Grow up man. He isn't wumming.

It's an open forum Leinster, I've hardly been insulting.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

Smirnoffpriest wrote:I'm coming at it from a Welsh perspective Red Stag and most of the Ospreys were in the 9-15 game bracket (withstanding injuries) - I'll try and do a comparison with Welsh 1st teamers in a bit

I think this is right SP (top of my head)

Dan Cole - 14 AP games
Adam Jones - 6 Pro 12 games

Actually Adam Jones played 10 (8 starts +2 sub) last season - I will do a list of the Wales XV in a min.

But how do you define the best team? Especially seeing as every nation (in the UK) has participation agreements with the clubs so that the internationals can't play every game, and in todays professional game players can't play every game (particularly not the front 5) as opposed to football where players can play 50 games a season.

I'm very excited about it.

I do believe this year will see our triumphant return to the playoffs! And so many young exciting players in Ulster about to make their breakthrough... a real case of watch this space. A new coach too.

It's exciting to have a new team in Zebre coming to Belfast and this year is likely to be even more competitive with stronger challenges from the Scottish sides in particular.

What are you on about stag? I know he isnt trying to wum. Can i not defend the pro 12 no?

The Pro12 will be the key to the renewal of Ireland's national side. It's my hope that in Schmidt, Penney and Anscombe we have three coaches in place who are willing to trust young players. The noises coming out of the provinces are very encouraging in that regard.

I do believe we are about to see a whole new generation of internationals cutting their teeth in the Pro12. Big prospects like Iain Henderson, Paddy Jackson, Andrew Conway and JJ Hanrahan beginning to push their way through.

Stroll on 31st August. I can't bloody wait!

I stand corrected SP, it was off the top of my head.

I'm a massive fan of Celtic rugby, Leinster especially played some of the best rugby I've seen in years in last seasons HC.

I'm just generally(not always) disappointed when I tune in to watch a Pro 12 game and find out half of their best players have been rested for another completion.

Fans of the teams will always watch and enjoy the Pro 12 but an outsider will always want to see the best players on show to be hooked into watching it.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:I stand corrected SP, it was off the top of my head.

I'm a massive fan of Celtic rugby, Leinster especially played some of the best rugby I've seen in years in last seasons HC.

I'm just generally(not always) disappointed when I tune in to watch a Pro 12 game and find out half of their best players have been rested for another completion.

Fans of the teams will always watch and enjoy the Pro 12 but an outsider will always want to see the best players on show to be hooked into watching it.

Do you think we should get rid of these international tours so that the players would be free to play in the pro 12?

Is that possible though? The IRFU dictate that players should be playing around 30 games in a season. There are 22-24 games in a Pro12 campaign, 6-9 in the Heineken Cup and then Ireland played 17 test matches last year.

I do believe its the NH calendar that has the problem, not the Pro12.

LeinsterFan4life wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:I stand corrected SP, it was off the top of my head.

I'm a massive fan of Celtic rugby, Leinster especially played some of the best rugby I've seen in years in last seasons HC.

I'm just generally(not always) disappointed when I tune in to watch a Pro 12 game and find out half of their best players have been rested for another completion.

Fans of the teams will always watch and enjoy the Pro 12 but an outsider will always want to see the best players on show to be hooked into watching it.

Do you think we should get rid of these international tours so that the players would be free to play in the pro 12?

How do the International windows prevent you from naming your strongest lineup for the majority of the season? Ferris did not play only 4 Pro games because of Ireland commitments.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:I stand corrected SP, it was off the top of my head.

I'm a massive fan of Celtic rugby, Leinster especially played some of the best rugby I've seen in years in last seasons HC.

I'm just generally(not always) disappointed when I tune in to watch a Pro 12 game and find out half of their best players have been rested for another completion.

Fans of the teams will always watch and enjoy the Pro 12 but an outsider will always want to see the best players on show to be hooked into watching it.

Do you think we should get rid of these international tours so that the players would be free to play in the pro 12?

How do the International windows prevent you from naming your strongest lineup for the majority of the season? Ferris did not play only 4 Pro games because of Ireland commitments.

Players need to rest after these internationals. Our internationals are going to miss the first couple of rabbo games because of the NZ tour.

Here's the Welsh figures - 1st figures are 2011/12 season but I've added 2010/11 season as in 11/12 we had rest periods after the WC, then a few weeks later a training camp before the ridiculous Oz december game.

1. Geth Jenkins 4 + 1 (7+1)
2. Matthew Rees/Ken Owens 5 + 3(11+2)/ 7 + 4 (5+7)
3. Adam Jones – 8 +2(11+3)
4. Alun Wyn Jones 9 + 1 (11+1)
5. Ianto / Charteris 14 +1 (15+2)/ 4 (24)*
6. Lydiate 12 (16)*
7. Warburton 2 (8 +2)
8. Faletau / R Jones 13 (18) */ 9 + 1 (9+4)
9. Phillips (Foreign based) (5+3)
10. Priestland 6 ^ (14+4)
11. North 4 + 3 (11)
12. Roberts 1+1 (9+2)
13. JD2 3 + 2 (7+2)
14. Cuthbert 13
15. Halfpenny 5 (10+1)

* indicates that I got figures from Dragons website which didn't decern between HEC and Rabo games so this is total games played.
^ I couldn't understand the Bayonne website in French so couldn't find how many games Phillips had played this season.

The pro 12 will always be without a percentage of players sometimes during each season. Its just the way things are as they can only play a certain amount of matches per season. I have to say that people go over the top complaining about it. It is what it is.

The top Irish players played about 1/3rd of Rabo games last season but they played in all the HEC games, world cup, 6 nations etc.

One thing I have noticed also these past few years is that most of the players in the squads are pushing for their place in the first 15.

But most Welsh, Irish and Scottish teams won't be missing large amounts of other nations international players - there's barely any Argentinians in comparison to the AV and Top 12, same as Fijians, Tongans and Samoans, and Russians, Italians and Georgians. All these players will be missing at certain times as well as the English/French and Celtic internationals in those teams.

One thing that does annoy me as a fan of a Welsh region is Gatlands tendancy to work the Welsh internationals into the ground, so when they get back to the region they are injured and need a few months out, before coming back just before the next international window/training camp.

Well here's some good news for the Pro12; the Italians are going to be back on our TV screens.

http://www.rabodirectpro12.com/news/14359.php

The Rabo kicks off THIS month

Reasons to love the PRO 12.

It's rugby, what's not to love?

There is nothing to love about this turgid, poorly run, joke of a league.

Chunky Norwich wrote:There is nothing to love about this turgid, poorly run, joke of a league.

Bit harsh, but i suppose peoples views are always welcome.

Chunky - its the only pro league that is free for the masses to watch, surely that is something to love about it.

Chunky Norwich wrote:There is nothing to love about this turgid, poorly run, joke of a league.

Then don't watch it!

I'll be watching it whenever I can and enjoying it.

It's got the best team in Europe in it . Although they are unable to actually win the trophy. Even when they top the league.