Reasons to love the PRO 12.

First topic message reminder :

Its getting near starting time for the League, and I can't wait.

This year looks to be gearing up to be the most competative yet.

Terviso and Connacht are improving and look to be pushing the established big teams of Leinster, Munster, Ulster, Ospreys, Scarlets and Blues, and will be aiming to finish in the top 6, the big six will all be hoping for a play off finish. Going to be a lot of tight games, but I don't think we will get to many shock results. IE, if Connacht beat Ospreys it would be an upset, in the past a shock, but now its not so much of a shock.

One of the reasons I like the Pro 12 is that the teams are split into 4 unions, and all 4 want to have there teams at the top of the table, this means that is a unions teams are not doing well they will put more resources in to try and bring them up, making the league always competative. Look at how the SRU and helped Edinburgh and Glasgow improve over the last few years, likewise IRFU and Connacht.

Italy and pushed Terviso on, they have taken the decision that Aironi weren't going to be make it, and have launched Zebre, who will be in for a very tough first year, but this shows how the different unions in a league make it more competative.

IE if it was a one union league, a team that isn't doing well would sit about the bottom maybe go down come up, and yo yo for a time, but if a team is at/near bottom of Pro 12, the Union will try to focus resources on it to try and move it up the table, any other team could hope for more Union support and would have to hope for a sugar daddy or such like to come along.

It also has some of the best teams in Europe, people may say the first teams don't play enough in the league, but this is argued that they play as many as in any other league, but the teams do have more strength in depth, for the PRO 12.

I can't wait, while I see Leinster as being the best team in it and very likely to top the table 2-6 is very close and 6-11 will be very close as well, all to play for.

PS please don't turn this into a Pro 12 v other Leagues debate, but instead look at the Pro 12's unique features that make it good or bad.

"Yeah yeah, the Saints reached the final some years ago"

Some years ago as in one?

Sgt_Pooly wrote:"Yeah yeah, the Saints reached the final some years ago"

Some years ago as in one?

You should thank your sugar daddy keith barwell for that success as your imports brian mujati and saone tonga'uihu would win games almost single handedly by simply dominating the scrums. I have more respect for teams such as wasps, harlequins, and scarlets who produce their own players and help grow the game as a result.

Scrumdown wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:"Yeah yeah, the Saints reached the final some years ago"

Some years ago as in one?

You should thank your sugar daddy keith barwell for that success as your imports brian mujati and saone tonga'uihu would win games almost single handedly by simply dominating the scrums. I have more respect for teams such as wasps, harlequins, and scarlets who produce their own players and help grow the game as a result.

What are you talking about???

All teams have to be within the salary cap so it's got nothing to do with a sugar daddy. If Saints want to spend their budget on props it's up to them but it's hardly putting them on a different playing field to other teams. You play to your strengths no?

I'm not a Saints fan by the way.

I think that each of the Rabo teams except the italians, Connacht and Dragons are all working towards getting a strong secon team. If you look at most of the scottish signings it is not so much for the frist team but the second team.
As Os showed with losing players and also munster that the Rabo teams have a good frist team and ok second team with Leinster having to good teams. As the second teams become stronger the rabo will rise in standard as is happening.
Everyone has seen saints and most french teams that when they lose some first choice players they aren't always able to compete.
The top teams are top because of the standard of their second team.
Exeter did well last year because their first and second team is much of a muchness and can maintain their standards when players change. Toulouse, Clearmount, Tigers, Leinster and Munster have been doing it for years.
I think that the Rabo teams are doing better at producing players then they use to and are now getting better strenght in depth.

I am so excited for the new season as yes there will be some one sided games as bluesman says but there will be lots of last five minute games where we wont be able to turn away.

Attendance will go up and I think we could see four teams over 10k and at the bottom excluding Zebra I think they will be pushing for 5k plus most days

But without the financial security that keith barwell provides northampton, then no way would they be a able to spend the whole salary cap without putting the future of the club at risk.

Brendan wrote:I think that each of the Rabo teams except the italians, Connacht and Dragons are all working towards getting a strong secon team. If you look at most of the scottish signings it is not so much for the frist team but the second team.
As Os showed with losing players and also munster that the Rabo teams have a good frist team and ok second team with Leinster having to good teams. As the second teams become stronger the rabo will rise in standard as is happening.
Everyone has seen saints and most french teams that when they lose some first choice players they aren't always able to compete.
The top teams are top because of the standard of their second team.
Exeter did well last year because their first and second team is much of a muchness and can maintain their standards when players change. Toulouse, Clearmount, Tigers, Leinster and Munster have been doing it for years.
I think that the Rabo teams are doing better at producing players then they use to and are now getting better strenght in depth.

I am so excited for the new season as yes there will be some one sided games as bluesman says but there will be lots of last five minute games where we wont be able to turn away.

Attendance will go up and I think we could see four teams over 10k and at the bottom excluding Zebra I think they will be pushing for 5k plus most days

There is definitely a coercive effort by the regions in Wales to try to improve their game, as well as their ability to exist. Financially re-working their structures and business model to suit their future.

Hopefully we will see both an increase in performance of the regions and of the amount of supporters attending games.

Scrumdown wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:"Yeah yeah, the Saints reached the final some years ago"

Some years ago as in one?

You should thank your sugar daddy keith barwell for that success as your imports brian mujati and saone tonga'uihu would win games almost single handedly by simply dominating the scrums. I have more respect for teams such as wasps, harlequins, and scarlets who produce their own players and help grow the game as a result.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:"Yeah yeah, the Saints reached the final some years ago"

Some years ago as in one?

Is this it?? I wrote a whole lot more in case you missed it. You must have missed the irony, RE Saints in the 2011 final. So we have a bad WUM (as mentioned) and not a very intelligent rugby man to supplement that?

I 'love' the pro12 because........my team plays in it! Just like I would love the jeff if I supported an English team or the Championship if I followed Plymouth Albion. Simples....

I would say the Irish provinces have learned how to use the league to concentrate on the HC. But only playing two games a month (+ the inter-pros), doesn't get Irish players ready for the week to week intensity of a RWC, or even the 6N to some extent. There is also the old question of some Irish players giving more for their province than their national team (a different debate )

These days the Welsh seem more geared to ensuring their national side does compete in international competitions. Plus having a good crop of young players coming through helps. It is mystifying why the regions can't make a better fist of the HC though.

The Scots and Italians are tough at home in the league but woeful away. Neither have done well in the RWC and 6N recently.

No relegation is fine for the Rabo, but I can't help feeling that making teams qualify for the HC would improve attendances which, a few teams aside, could be much better. Only watching on telly mind, but the atmosphere at some Rabo games is almost non existant.

Even if ERC changed their ranking criteria to give a large emphasis on where a team finished in their league to determine seedings would be an improvement.

Morgannwg wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:"Yeah yeah, the Saints reached the final some years ago"

Some years ago as in one?

Is this it?? I wrote a whole lot more in case you missed it. You must have missed the irony, RE Saints in the 2011 final. So we have a bad WUM (as mentioned) and not a very intelligent rugby man to supplement that?

What an odd comment.

Hound_of_Harrow wrote:I would say the Irish provinces have learned how to use the league to concentrate on the HC. But only playing two games a month (+ the inter-pros), doesn't get Irish players ready for the week to week intensity of a RWC, or even the 6N to some extent.

Not true- we have a superior record to England in the 6N in recent years, so that doesn't back up the idea that the Premiership readies England for week in week out competition but the Rabo doesn't prepare the Ireland for the same in the 6N. We have beaten England 7 out of the last 9 games in the 6N, so thats garbage I'm afraid.

Artful, I haven't mentioned England because our teams don't play in the Rabo, but sure crack on if bragging rights is what you want. But you have only emphasised my point really. Ireland have nearly always played their best game against England in the 6N* and then only once closed out a slam.

Nearly men quite a few times, but with your so called 'golden generation' I would have expected at least two more slams. And at least a RWC semi final.

* Scotland have also saved their best game for England in the 6N. Wales under Gatland have shed the 'so long as we beat the English' mindset.

England simply haven't had good enough players or coaches since 2003. I readily acknowledge that, but as I said, this article isn't about England.

Ireland were simply the best of the home nations for a number of years but kept losing to an even better French side. It's no more complicated than that. It's nothing to do with the PRO12.

People are really scraping the barrel looking for reasons to knock the PRO12. It's funny.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

Morgannwg wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:"Yeah yeah, the Saints reached the final some years ago"

Some years ago as in one?

Is this it?? I wrote a whole lot more in case you missed it. You must have missed the irony, RE Saints in the 2011 final. So we have a bad WUM (as mentioned) and not a very intelligent rugby man to supplement that?

What an odd comment.

So refrain from your off-topic comments in future then. Owned.

Congrats the Cardiff Blues who beat the Cheetahs 31 - 32 in South Africa.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/19137035

well done Blues

Go on Blues. Fly the Rabo Pro 12 and Celtic flag. I have no doubt Blues would have lost had they not been accustomed to playing the best players in Ireland and Scotland all-year, every-year. It prepared them very well!

Feckless Rogue wrote:Ireland were simply the best of the home nations for a number of years but kept losing to an even better French side. It's no more complicated than that. It's nothing to do with the PRO12.

People are really scraping the barrel looking for reasons to knock the PRO12. It's funny.

Pretty spot on. Ireland were unlucky to have a French team around that were world class for a number of years.

I'm not knocking the Rabo either; just commenting on what different countries seem to get from it. After all the league was set up post professionalism, and the regionalisation of rugby in Wales and Scotland. With a much reduced professional player base in the celtic countries the league was formed to give those players some meaningful, competitive rugby.

For sure it has grown, and now serves much more in the way of young player development. Some very good youngsters have burst onto the international scene in recent years - especially in Wales and Scotland. Ireland's youngsters, while seeing plenty of league action, seem to be held back by Kidney's conservative selections. Once again, that's another topic.

Morgannwg wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

Morgannwg wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:"Yeah yeah, the Saints reached the final some years ago"

Some years ago as in one?

Is this it?? I wrote a whole lot more in case you missed it. You must have missed the irony, RE Saints in the 2011 final. So we have a bad WUM (as mentioned) and not a very intelligent rugby man to supplement that?

What an odd comment.

So refrain from your off-topic comments in future then. Owned.

I'll think you'll find it was other posters who took it off topic, not your point makes any sense anyway.

I can't take a poster seriously who uses smilies to try and end a discussion.

Does anyone over the age of 15 actually use "owned" as they try and win the internet?

thebluesmancometh wrote:I and will not agree that it is good for Welsh rugby!!!

If it wasn't for the regions we wouldn't have the academies that have completely changed Wales fortunes at all levels of senior rugby.

sugarNspikes wrote:Does anyone over the age of 15 actually use "owned" as they try and win the internet?

'Pwned!'

Quite.

Youth of today.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

I'll think you'll find it was other posters who took it off topic, not your point makes any sense anyway.

I can't take a poster seriously who uses smilies to try and end a discussion.

Did they? Then why drag it further off topic? Oh yeah, a chance to have a pop at Wales. I always wonder how an article that has something to do with Wales or the Celtic League always brings out the worst in some people over in England.
Which part did not make sense, Saints 50 odd point drubbing?

sugarNspikes wrote:Quite.

Youth of today.

I'm embarrassed for the kid.

Yeah go further off topic Pooly because you were utterly and completely wrong. It's music to my ears. The Rabo rules, just deal with it.

I don't think having a pop at an entire generation of young people is really setting the standard any higher than he is.

I hereby apologise to a whole generation of young people. If they're reading this, I hope they can forgive me.



Consider the standard re-raised.

Under 3 weeks!!!!!

ScarletSpiderman wrote:Under 3 weeks!!!!!

Even better the Fantasy Pro 12 site is being update for the 12/13 season. (http://www.fantasy12.com)

I wonder will we still be as excited 3 weeks before the end, or will some of us have given up on the season by then and be looking forward to next year?

Hopefully we're all still in with a fighting chance then.

A good close season would do the league good, with no world cup this year, and means it is easier to get supporters in right up to the end.

If we (Dragons) get out of the bottom 4 I will definately re-new my season ticket for next year

Kingshu wrote:I wonder will we still be as excited 3 weeks before the end, or will some of us have given up on the season by then and be looking forward to next year?

Hopefully we're all still in with a fighting chance then.

A good close season would do the league good, with no world cup this year, and means it is easier to get supporters in right up to the end.

Yes I agree that it will be good for the league to start with all it's star players from the outset.

Unfortunately it won't, several Internationals will be on breaks after summer tours. Not sure what the player management plans are for the different countries, for Scotland it seems to be on a player by player basis. Regardless all those on the summer tour got an enforced break afterwards, so joined pre-season late. I don't expect to see that many back for the first couple of games.

There wont be , especially the bubble wrapped Irish players

I offered my thoughts on the Scots, do you know what's up with the Welsh Internationals?

Well Ryan Jones will def be out as he's injured.

I doubt we'll see many of the regions internationals in the first game except Faletau, he never takes a break.

True Faletau is pretty remorseless. For Edinburgh, Munster first up, I'd expect to see Rennie, Scott, Denton rested and possibly NDL, can't see Laidlaw allowing himself to be rested as Captain, similarly Viss, Brown didn't see much action so should be fine. Gilchrist, Chunk didn't tour so will be fresh. Interesting one will be Ford played all 3 games and may be given more time, particularly as he's AR's captain and he won't want him overplayed.

Irish players are a month behind getting into pre-season. You won't see the starters until October. Perhaps some squad players will trickle back from the middle of September.

Leinster will suffer the most as they supply the bulk of the starting Irish players.

The welsh are behind too. But I was hoping that meant they would be fit and ready to play by the second round...!