Some things are just too obvious!!!

Olympics shot put: Nadzeya Ostapchuk stripped of gold medal


http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/olympics/19242736
Somethings were just too obvious! Was to me - as I'm sure it was to the many millions more around the world

She could've at least made an effort on the day to look her best and make it appear less obvious.

You got to laugh at Brett Morse's comments

And the fact that he had to apologise - only for us all to find that he was bang on! [ Though he might've been more diplomatic ].

Finally, sad that Valerie Adams had to win her Gold like that - but at least Ostapchuk got caught, and the right person gets to be called the Olympic champion

now just waiting for a certain Algerian middle distance runner to turn up something dodgy...

glad Val Adams won, big fan of hers

Mad for Chelsea wrote:now just waiting for a certain Algerian middle distance runner to turn up something dodgy...

glad Val Adams won, big fan of hers

In agreement regarding that certain Algerian middle distance runner - would be great to wipe that smirk from his face! [ Insert: Backhand Slap Emoticon ]

SJ / MfC

I'm also very suspicious of certain Turkish women athletes, especially for the following reasons:
1 - The 1500m winner already has form for PED use
2 - The recently banned Italian race walker said that he was travelling to Turkey to obtain his EPO, as such things were available 'no questions asked' there, whereas he couldn't get doping products in Italy.

So the system works then. These athletes are idiots they were warned that they will be caught now they have brought shame on themselves and their country.

djkb

The system works some of the time, catching those who take the risk to still be using PEDs very close to competition time (indeed, Ostapchuk has returned two positive samples, one from just before the competition and one from immediately after). Catching someone who is pumped full of steroids in competition is not the biggest challenge the anti-doping guys have ever had.

A bigger plus mark for the Olympic testing protocols was the positive EPO test on Italian race walker Alex Schwazer (2008 gold medallist in the 50km walk) - testing undertaken before the athlete left Italy to travel to London, but comes under the IOC auspices as the test was after the Olympic village opened.

Obviously, there are still athletes who take PEDs who are not caught by the system, and it will always be the case, as the level for a positive test to be recorded has to be conservatively high as a false positive result would be much more damaging to anti doping strategies than failing to catch some dopers.

http://tenpercentorless.blogspot.co.uk/2012/08/want-to-run-958-speak-to-bolts-chemist.html

Everyone read this

I have limited faith in the 'system' to be fair.

Catching Ostapchuk is great and all that, but catching this athlete does absolutely no damage to the sport whatsoever. As has been said, everybody knew it anyway. Everyone felt sorry for Adams that she'd been beaten by this person who appeared to be clearly on drugs.

By bringing her down, the 'system' looks great because they caught a relatively high profile cheat, but it's a result that is no surprise to anyone.

I'm not accusing anyone of anything, but would they be so quick in bringing down someone like Bolt, Farah or Ennis? Any of these guys gets caught and the sport suffers a huge amount.

pbf

very interesting article

wouldn't be surprised if it turned out to be true

i definately concur with the idea that it's chemicals that make that vital few tenths difference in certain cases

djlovesyou wrote:I have limited faith in the 'system' to be fair.

Catching Ostapchuk is great and all that, but catching this athlete does absolutely no damage to the sport whatsoever. As has been said, everybody knew it anyway. Everyone felt sorry for Adams that she'd been beaten by this person who appeared to be clearly on drugs.

By bringing her down, the 'system' looks great because they caught a relatively high profile cheat, but it's a result that is no surprise to anyone.

I'm not accusing anyone of anything, but would they be so quick in bringing down someone like Bolt, Farah or Ennis? Any of these guys gets caught and the sport suffers a huge amount.

Thats a load of crud. The anti doping bodies only exist as long as theres a perceived need for them and get funded according to the level of that perceived need, if they only caught a bunch of crack heads in Locash once every 10 years theyd be out of a job. Busting the likes of Lance Armstrong a decade late on the other hand seems to be a matter of great personal concern for the anti doping people. Big name scalps prove the system is needed and works, although there certainly has been cases of the athletic bodies doing their best to fudge or ignore failed tests in the past ( Us Athletics, Pakistan Cricket ). Im sure that UK Athletics would literaly poo the bed if Jennis failed a test, although she does wear pretty tight shorts and theres no sign of significant testorone abuse if she was doing anything you could be certain she;'d stick to undetectable things having far too much too loose and far too much close scrutiny plus she comes from a country with a high level of off season testing and that takes failed tests very seriously (eg trying to get Chambers banned for life).decreases the likliehood that sport would continue to get funded to the same extent.

djlovesyou wrote:I have limited faith in the 'system' to be fair.

Catching Ostapchuk is great and all that, but catching this athlete does absolutely no damage to the sport whatsoever. As has been said, everybody knew it anyway. Everyone felt sorry for Adams that she'd been beaten by this person who appeared to be clearly on drugs.

By bringing her down, the 'system' looks great because they caught a relatively high profile cheat, but it's a result that is no surprise to anyone.

I'm not accusing anyone of anything, but would they be so quick in bringing down someone like Bolt, Farah or Ennis? Any of these guys gets caught and the sport suffers a huge amount.

Absolutely they would shout from the rooftops if a high profile athlete was juicing and was found out. Look at the glee at Armstrong. Did they keep quiet at Ben Johnson, Chambers et al?

Remove your tin foil hat and look at the facts.

I'm not accusing anyone of anything,

You have more or less accused Bolt of juicing on another thread.

Carl Lewis? Linford Christie? Marion Jones?

The USA guys let Lewis off.

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/i-team/victor-conte-claims-athletes-performance-enhancing-drugs-preparation-2012-london-olympics-article-1.1134190#ixzz23DMvte4o

This is interesting as well. Surely Victor would know? In fact the former world anti-doping agency president Dick Pound describes him as 'a very good source, and 'knowledgeable and helpful'

Victor suggests
"that of the top 20 athletes in each Olympic event, about 60% have used performance-enhancing drugs in the previous year during their preparations for the Games.”

whereas our track and field expert suggests
"Remove your tin foil hat and look at the facts"

Who do you think might be the more reliable source of information?

The operative word is "claim". Anyone can claim anything. Without proof it remain idle gossip irrespective of who the gossip is. For the record I respect Conte. But he has made some extravagant claims in the past.

I wonder why you suspect Bolt and the other Jamaicans?

Is Gemelli juicing also? He has made some spectacular improvements over the past 8 months.

"I wonder why you suspect Bolt and the other Jamaicans?"

Why oh why oh why would I suspect the jamaicans? Hmmmm let me think.


Oh yes now I remember

Fair play to you though, you're almost but not quite beyond satire

Contes claims should be taken with a pinch of salt. what you have to bear in mind is that he has a lot to gain from promoting the idea that "everyones at it". Whilst he obviously knows as much anyone about the practises that could be carried out that doesnt mean they are by as many as he claims. Hes certainly a useful source for WADA in looking at weaknesses in their testing regime, but is prone to making extravagant claims to boost his own profile and promote the idea that drug taking is the norm, and it should either be legalised or have him payed a lot of money to help police it.

However the Jamaican sprint team working directly with a man of similar history to Conte, coupled with either remarkable ability to get a stable of sprinters faster than those form the era when everyone was doping, their poor off season testing regime, and know previous history of illegal drug use in Jamaican sprinting does make tend to edge things toward the chin stroking category.
But until theres a failed test or a whistle blower it could just be a similar story to that of British cycling which is clean right .....

Are the British track cycling team working with Heredia too?

No not at all, Im just citing an example of a team thats had remarkable results but which remains free of any sniping regarding drugs (just the french press making things up and accusing officials of bias for only costing England two golds)

For such a reasonably pretty (although not my type) sort, has anyone else noticed that Jess Ennis seems to have grown a little facial hair recently? Just sayin'

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:No not at all, Im just citing an example of a team thats had remarkable results but which remains free of any sniping regarding drugs (just the french press making things up and accusing officials of bias for only costing England two golds)

There has been sniping about the cycling team (not just by the French press). I've seen plenty of it on here and elsewhere.

It just doesn't produce the hysteria that accusing the (quite clearly sketchy) Jamaicans does because you can't dive headlong into the racism route to defend them.

djlovesyou wrote:

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:No not at all, Im just citing an example of a team thats had remarkable results but which remains free of any sniping regarding drugs (just the french press making things up and accusing officials of bias for only costing England two golds)

There has been sniping about the cycling team (not just by the French press). I've seen plenty of it on here and elsewhere.

It just doesn't produce the hysteria that accusing the (quite clearly sketchy) Jamaicans does because you can't dive headlong into the racism route to defend them.

It would not surprise me one bit if the track cyclists were all doped up. Some of those have started from zero and in two years they're cycling on the Olympic team. Rowers becoming cyclists. Hoy with his freaky legs looks like he's injected HGH directly into his leg muscles. It doesn't add up somehow.

As for thje Jamaicans I'd be gutted if Bolt was something other than a monstrous talent. However I have my doubts about him. That Yohan Blake though is dripping with the stuff! Are we meant to believe a guy with an average sub 20 second 200m can in a matter of no time suddenly run better than Michael Johnson ever could? Bull! And the problems he's had with the Jamaican anti dopers too makes me feel Blake is a wrongun! Pretty strange that a country with less people than Wales can have all the fastest runners in the world too.

Which ones have come from nowhere in two years?

djlovesyou wrote:Which ones have come from nowhere in two years?

Wendy Houvenaghel. Okay she's not the best but she started at 31 and won a silver in Beijing at 33. Either she is some kind of cycling genius or something weird is going on! Two years from 0 to Olympic medalist!

She became British champion for the first time in 2003.

With swimming, tracjk cycling and rowing its really shows just how uncompetitive these sports have been for a long time that even if they are juicing these guys can take up sport and dominate in no time. Id say its rather different to the 100m which has been the blue riband atheltics event for several decades, and at the forefront of drug use, yet these chaps are destroying the times of the finest chemistry experiments america could produce?

As for the British cycling team...look at Pendleton compared to Mears and tell me which one is more likely to be using HGH. SCHoys quads to Forstermans.Iif they are, others certainly are.

For the ignorant among us. Please note that Yohan Blake was a prodigy just like bolt.

At 17 he ran 10.09 for the 100m - the jamaican Junior record. So it is not implausible that he is running these fast times now.

Are we questioning Adam Gemili - he ran 10.05! came out of nowhere - is he doping? Or is he a talent - after all he only take up the sport last year.


If Bolt is juicing he would be the most stupid man in the world.

First he doesnt need juice to beat the rest of the field.

Secondly if he is juicing and is caught - he would lose is legacy and also all that $20 mil sponsership money he would have to pay back.

I am sure that somewhere in is many sponsership deals there is a clause about doping. He would have too much to lose.

Think of lance amstrong? Lost is legacy. That should be a lesson for would be dopers.

If anyone speak to jamaican athletes and adminstrators over the year, they always welcome tough testing procedures.

Anyone notice the relative decline of USA, russia and former soviet states since more stringent testing and the relative rise of the English caribbean (18 medals in athletics in London 2012 for a population of less than 5 million)?

English Caribbean with a population of less than 5 million won : 18 medals including 6 gold! It is clear that the Caribbean has athletic talent - match my some proper coaching, infrasture and tough competition from an early age. See Jamaican Champs, CAC Games, CARIFITA Games. When these athletes arrive on the international stage - they would have been exposed to the pressure of competition.

The biggest and best School athletic competition is the world is the Jamaican Champs.


Over the years jamaican (female athletes)felt that they were robbed by dopers.

Case in point sydeny 200. 100m women. Tanya lawarence of jamaica came 3rd. Jones first and the Greek athlete thanou 2nd? jones got DSQ. Thanou is a convicted doper. Make your mind up as to who is the legitimate winner here.

Ottey and Julient Cuttburt, Grace Jackson losing out in the 80s to the Americans and the Soviet Block - who were doping on an industrial scale.

Jamaica welcome robust drugs testing , because now that the testing have been made more robust , this as allowed us to compete on an equal footing, hence the relative rise of the Caribbean and the Decline of The U S A.

Think about this. At London 2012. The U S A mens won only 100 sprint title. 110m hurdles. The Caribbean sweep all the other sprint titles:

100/200/400/400H/ 4x 400 and 4x 100.

I guess Kirani Games is Doping? What do you think DJ and English?

I Guess Adam Gemili is doping (10.05 as a 18 year old) - What do you think DJ and english?

Gemeli is not doping. He is English and not of Caribbean heritage. A pure and refreshing honest British bloke. He will be Iranian descent if he is doping.

DJ and EO will deny it, but they want the caribbean athletes to be doping. It hurts them that a small group of Islands can produce such superb and clean athletes.

there's a huge difference between running 10.05 (or 07) as a youngster (other guys have done that before) and running 9.69 or 19.26 (I mean, really?). There's also the minor fact that Blake has already had a ban for doping, which I'm sure you'd agree leads to some suspicion.

There's a lot of incoherences in your post djk: you seem to imply the only reason the Americans (with a much larger population) were dominating sprinting was because they were cheating, but now the Caribbean athletes are dominating (and in most cases posting much faster times than the American cheats did) that's somehow proof that everything is OK, despite two of these Jamaican world beaters (Blake and Fraser-Pryce) having been banned for substance abuse?

You mention Ottey and Lawrence, how about Jeter? Beaten at lots of major championships by Fraser-Pryce (convicted doper). I'm not taking the DJ/EO line of "they're all on drugs" but your post is very rose-tinted for me, sorry.

to draw a rapid parallel with cycling, we're meant to believe (and I buy this) that cycling is cleaner than it was throughout the 90s and early 00s. This however has the advantage of being borne out by the statistics: races are being ridden at significantly slower pace than they were back then (the average speed of this year's TdF was much slower than it was ten years ago say).

Now if we were to believe the same in Athletics, the times people are running now should be slower than the times being run when doping was so rife in the 00s. But you look at the London 100 m men's final, and you've got four athletes under 9.8, which is a good deal quicker than the times ran by Greene and Gatlin (both cheats) to win their Olympic titles. That's FOUR athletes. Chuck in the fact that two of the top 3 are convicted drug cheats (whose times are now quicker than when they were banned), and maybe you can see where this scepticism is coming from . Az tries to make it out as a purely anti-Carribean streak, but believe me, in my case, that's very far from the truth. Were Gemili to improve to the 9.7s sort of range next year I'd be equally suspicious.

Chelsea:

Was Fraser Pryce : Caught for PEDs. She is not a convicted doper - so dont spin it. It was a pain killer a stupid mistake just like the British Guy (Baxter) who was caught for using an over the counter asthma medication. A big difference. She wasnt using any PED trying to cheat the system. So get your facts right.

The same apply to Blake as well. do your research.

If they were caught using PED , do you think they would be invited to the Top meets in Europe? And it would have been brought up everytime. See Dwain Chambers.

What do you think about Lematrie is is doping? He is running 100m times that nobody thought that a white man could run?

Slight correction. The Caribbean (Anglophone that is) won 7 Gold at London.


Another point. Team GB. One Gold at atlanta 96. London 2012 - 29 Gold . Suspcious? Just asking?

Furthermore there are no PEDs that will allow a man to cover the 100m in 41 strides or grow to 6ft 5 inches.

You mentioned about the times being quicker. You forget to mention the mental barrier.

Remember the 4 minute mile. People thought it was impossible - until bannister broke it. Was he doping? Then after he broke people began to believe in the impossible and many more people break the barrier. The same is happening in the 100 now.

We now have 3 men who have run under 9.7.

What about David Rudisha 800m WR. Is he doping? Going under 1.41 seconds?

I can go on: What about Paula Radclfiee WR. Suspicious as well?

What about the USA womens 4x100 WR - broke a 27 years old long standing record held by the cheating East Germans. Are they doping? Are you suspcious of them?

I could go on and on.


Anecdotal evidence would suggest that the the Caribbean (put the cubans in) is the most athletically gifted people on earth.

""Gemeli is not doping. He is English and not of Caribbean heritage. A pure and refreshing honest British bloke. He will be Iranian descent if he is doping."

Thats so true. It reminds of Ben Johnson. Before he was cuaght he was Canadian.

When he was caught - He was Jamaican or Jamaican - Born Ben Johnson.

The same will happen to Mo as well. If he is caught he will be Somalia born Mo Farah and a Muslim.

Mad for Chelsea wrote:to draw a rapid parallel with cycling, we're meant to believe (and I buy this) that cycling is cleaner than it was throughout the 90s and early 00s. This however has the advantage of being borne out by the statistics: races are being ridden at significantly slower pace than they were back then (the average speed of this year's TdF was much slower than it was ten years ago say).

Now if we were to believe the same in Athletics, the times people are running now should be slower than the times being run when doping was so rife in the 00s. But you look at the London 100 m men's final, and you've got four athletes under 9.8, which is a good deal quicker than the times ran by Greene and Gatlin (both cheats) to win their Olympic titles. That's FOUR athletes. Chuck in the fact that two of the top 3 are convicted drug cheats (whose times are now quicker than when they were banned), and maybe you can see where this scepticism is coming from . Az tries to make it out as a purely anti-Carribean streak, but believe me, in my case, that's very far from the truth. Were Gemili to improve to the 9.7s sort of range next year I'd be equally suspicious.

Gemili improved hos 200m time by a tenth. He improved his 100m time from low to mid 10s to 10.05 all in 5 months. Surely he must he doping.

As for Blake, he took some innocuous substance and got 3 months ban for it. Plus he obviously knows that he will be under the microscope because of that. He is clean. Powell is clean, Bolt is clean, Fraser is clean, VCB is clean, Weir is clean. Gemili I have serious doubts about though. Ditto Lemaitre, Gay, Bailey (purely coz my missus says he's cute).

Jamaicans are clean. The only doping Jamaican was training in USA. Welcome to Jamrock!

I'll try and answer point-by-point.

I called Fraser-Pryce and Blake "convicted dopers". I'm happy to concede this is slightly disingenuous of me, but the fact remains they have received bans for taking illegal products. The excuses they made, much like Meritt's ExtenZe excuse, and indeed Baxter, are to me irrelevant. They got caught with something in their system that shouldn't have been there, that was illegal. I shall use the term "dopers" as a short-cut for all that (which was really what I was using it for, sorry if it was unclear).

Gatlin has certainly been caught (twice) using PEDs, but still gets invited to meets. Chambers's problems with meet organisers go deeper than just the PED abuse: he also made comments to the effect that it's impossible to win and be clean (and judging by the records of most of the guys who were winning when he was around - Gatlin, Greene, Montgomery, etc. - there may even have been an element of truth there). Also, Chambers was never really in the class of Gatlin, Blake or Fraser-Pryce, less crowd appeal, less reason to invite him.

Don't know what Lemaitre's skin colour has to do with anything.

Mildly suspicious of team GB, particularly the track cycling team. Of course, they're other factors, such as huge amounts of money chucked in, and home advantage, and the fact a lot of their medals came in more "minority" sports (unlike sprinting). Equally suspicious of the American swimming team actually.

Now onto your second post.

I agree on the mental barrier being important, and in fact the four minute mile is a great example, in that once Bannister had broken it lots of others did too quite quickly IIRC. However, I can't help but feel you missed my point: sprinting times have actually evolved quite linearly over the years. Now I'm sure we'll agree that most of the WRs throughout the 90s and early 00s were tainted (Johnson, Lewis, Greene, Montgomery to name a few). My point is, surely you can understand a bit of cynicism when people are now running significantly faster than these PED-enhanced times? You mention the women's 4x100 WR, but as you say this record had stood for 27 years! If Bolt Blake, Gatlin and Gay were only running faster than the guys were running in the mid-80s with PEDs I'd say it's a case of "natural progression" finally overcoming the PED barrier, but this hasn't taken 27 years, it's taken significantly less (not entirely sure when Montgomery had his "WR" run).

You mention Rudisha and Radcliffe. I'm going to state my own personal belief here: I believe Bolt, Rudisha and Radcliffe are three incredibly gifted athletes and are all clean. As you say there are very good physiological reasons why Bolt is as quick as he is (the 41 strides because he's so tall). I understand (though not the details) that similar reasons exist for Radcliffe and Rudisha. I'm less convinced by Blake, and even less so by Gatlin.

The trouble is, you assume I'm only sceptical of the Jamaican (or Carribean) performances. That's simply not true.

Chelsea:

I must admit that you do put forward cogent and valid aruguments to support your analysis. Unlike a few people on here, who let emotion and heresay cloud there judgements.

You miscontrued me on Lematrie. It was widly reported prior to the advent of the Frenchman that no white man has broken the 10 secs barrier. Just stating what was reported. No that he has done it many will do it - it goes back to the mental barrier again.

You forget to mention that Kirani James in your list of incredible gifted athlete.

As I said before, Bolt especially would be doubly foolish to be taking PED.
You only have to look at Lance Armstrong and his tarnished legacy.

Just in general , I am rather saddened by the way in which excellence of performance is becoming reason to suspect a team or individual of skulduggery even in the absence of any other evidence.
Yes a lot of people have been proved to have been cheating , and there are those who regularly trot out made up "statistics" ie complete guesses that x % of medal winners etc are on the stuff...but do we all have to adopt cynicism as a default position ?
The GB track cyclists for example have achieved wonderful results at the recent Olympics : should this be so surprising ? Brailsford told anyone who was listening that they had been planning to peak precisely for this event for the last four years , and results in between were of relatively minor significance. And of course the same riders who triumphed in London were often beaten in recent years by French ,German and Australian riders. If winning were down to illicit methods , surely they would have been winning all the time - unless of course the other teams were doing the same...which just takes us round in circles...
Sometimes it just is a combination of talented athletes , excellent management and painstaking attention to detail.

Re Jamaican sprinting : Bolt is a freak. I think most people agree with that. I don't think Blake's minor slip is automatically a pointer to his having indulged in any serious PEDs. As has been pointed out he was a very talented junior and even if his recent times have been remarkable they don't in themselves prove anything untoward. Remember he has had some powerful competition among his countrymen and competition certainly fuels rapid development in a group - think it was just a coincidence Coe/ Ovett/Cram all came together ? Their effect lasted a little longer with the likes of Peter Elliot but then the chain was broken and sadly British middle distance is looking pretty ordinary today...
At the moment Jamaican sprinting dominance looks well entrenched so it will be interesting to see where things stand a few years hence.

Also worth keeping in mind that eventually someone usually talks , so if anything dodgy has been going on (on an organized scale , not talking about the odd individual) , it will probably come out sooner or later. Just for now I prefer to enjoy the sport and regard people as honest until shown otherwise.

thanks for that djk I do try to be as objective as possible, but I appreciate it's a touchy subject.

Agreed on Lemaitre, I think now the mental barrier has been broken we'll see more "white" athletes breaking ten seconds. It might take some time, but I'm sure Lemaitre has inspired lots of white kids to sprinting (previously would have believed they had no chance, but now they've seen Lemaitre in the upper echelons must be thinking they can do it). It might take a while, but in 10-15 years I'd be surprised if many more white people had not gone sub 10.

Kirani James is also a very gifted athlete, and I was incredibly pleased when he beat Meritt at last year's worlds (similarly I was very pleased when Bolt beat Blake and Gatlin ). I left him out because he hasn't been breaking records (yet?).

The only link I've ever seen between Bolt and PEDs is the alleged link between him and Heredia. I've just done a quick bit of search, and there doesn't appear to be a huge amount of substance in it.
http://deadspin.com/5857439/what-do-usain-bolt-and-juan-manuel-marquez-have-in-common-they-train-with-the-same-admitted-steroids-dealer
I think this is the original article, interestingly it's dated back to november 2011, but only seems to have broken out post-Olympics. His manager's denied any link by the way (not that that means all that much, but important to get both sides of the story out there).
http://www.nbcolympics.com/news-blogs/blog=the-rundown/post/manager-linking-of-usain-bolt-to-admitted-steroid-dealer-completely-false.html

Even more interestingly the alleged link between Bolt and Heredia dates back only to 2009 (this is from another blog). Which begs the question: why would a guy who's just broken three world records feel the need to suddenly take up PEDs? Makes no sense.

chelsea boy

I have never said that all athletes are on drugs and I don't believe that they are for a minute. However I do think that my new best friend Victor isn't far off the mark when he suggests that about 12 of the top 20 in every event took peds in the year prior to the OG.

There is indeed a huge difference between running 10.05 and 9.6ish. Reducing an already world class time to one approaching fantasy land would take a gigantic amount of effort. I think you might have to be a sprinter or to have been a sprinter to appreciate that.


Good point re the TdF (of which I am a huge fan). Despite the advances in technology times are actually slower now which surely suggests that something was certainly amiss in the past and is perhaps slowly being remedied?
As you point out the reverse seems to be happening in athletics. Fantastic times are being run that destroy those set by proven drug-cheats. What's going on?

Anti -carribean? Remember that you aren't allowed to criticize black athletes, it's racist see? The racism card is the lazy man's way of trying to stifle arguement and discussion. Whereas my opposition to drug cheats of any colour is well documented, white uk athletes, white eastern european athletes chinese athletes for example as well as the more obvious, US jamaican, ethiopian, and kenyan targets.

djkbrown2001 wrote:
Over the years jamaican (female athletes)felt that they were robbed by dopers.

Case in point sydeny 200. 100m women. Tanya lawarence of jamaica came 3rd. Jones first and the Greek athlete thanou 2nd? jones got DSQ. Thanou is a convicted doper. Make your mind up as to who is the legitimate winner here.

Ottey and Julient Cuttburt, Grace Jackson losing out in the 80s to the Americans and the Soviet Block - who were doping on an industrial scale.

Ottey failed a drug test for Nandrolone. She was cleared on a technicality. Think of all the innocent sprinters from other countries that missed out on medals because of her.

The Nandrolone disaster was the last time the IAAF kept a new drug test/method a secret. Nowadays the give them plenty of warning so they can stop taking that particular substance and move on to another undetectable one.

Mad for Chelsea wrote:thanks for that djk I do try to be as objective as possible, but I appreciate it's a touchy subject.

Agreed on Lemaitre, I think now the mental barrier has been broken we'll see more "white" athletes breaking ten seconds. It might take some time, but I'm sure Lemaitre has inspired lots of white kids to sprinting (previously would have believed they had no chance, but now they've seen Lemaitre in the upper echelons must be thinking they can do it). It might take a while, but in 10-15 years I'd be surprised if many more white people had not gone sub 10.

Kirani James is also a very gifted athlete, and I was incredibly pleased when he beat Meritt at last year's worlds (similarly I was very pleased when Bolt beat Blake and Gatlin ). I left him out because he hasn't been breaking records (yet?).

The only link I've ever seen between Bolt and PEDs is the alleged link between him and Heredia. I've just done a quick bit of search, and there doesn't appear to be a huge amount of substance in it.
http://deadspin.com/5857439/what-do-usain-bolt-and-juan-manuel-marquez-have-in-common-they-train-with-the-same-admitted-steroids-dealer
I think this is the original article, interestingly it's dated back to november 2011, but only seems to have broken out post-Olympics. His manager's denied any link by the way (not that that means all that much, but important to get both sides of the story out there).
http://www.nbcolympics.com/news-blogs/blog=the-rundown/post/manager-linking-of-usain-bolt-to-admitted-steroid-dealer-completely-false.html

Even more interestingly the alleged link between Bolt and Heredia dates back only to 2009 (this is from another blog). Which begs the question: why would a guy who's just broken three world records feel the need to suddenly take up PEDs? Makes no sense.

Funny thing is that I said the same as you re lemaitre and was hauled through the coals for it.

The only people who built a story on Bolt and Heredia are those who wear tin foil hats and believe the moon landing is fake.

english_osprey wrote:chelsea boy

I have never said that all athletes are on drugs and I don't believe that they are for a minute. However I do think that my new best friend Victor isn't far off the mark when he suggests that about 12 of the top 20 in every event took peds in the year prior to the OG.

There is indeed a huge difference between running 10.05 and 9.6ish. Reducing an already world class time to one approaching fantasy land would take a gigantic amount of effort. I think you might have to be a sprinter or to have been a sprinter to appreciate that.


Good point re the TdF (of which I am a huge fan). Despite the advances in technology times are actually slower now which surely suggests that something was certainly amiss in the past and is perhaps slowly being remedied?
As you point out the reverse seems to be happening in athletics. Fantastic times are being run that destroy those set by proven drug-cheats. What's going on?

Anti -carribean? Remember that you aren't allowed to criticize black athletes, it's racist see? The racism card is the lazy man's way of trying to stifle arguement and discussion. Whereas my opposition to drug cheats of any colour is well documented, white uk athletes, white eastern european athletes chinese athletes for example as well as the more obvious, US jamaican, ethiopian, and kenyan targets.

What was Gemili's PB a year ago and what is it today?

Sprinters are getting faster because Bolt has set the bar incredibly high. Look at Gay for instance. Training harder and were it not for injuries I believe he would have run low 9.6. I am not surprised about Blake. Look who he trains with. He is known for being a very hard worker. Plus for such a short guy he has a huge stride length and great cadence.

Fantastic times are being run because people are training harder and the impossible is attainable. Bolt has dragged many (not british) faster. The Caribbean Anglosphere is reaping the reward.

The power of yam and hard food is there for all to see.

psw
i found your post a bit baffling. Where does he say that 'everyones at it'? He quite categorically says 60%.or so, which sounds about right.
Whats in it for him? i cant see how he benefits financially from sharing his knowledge with us via twitter.
Having said that he most certainly knows the trainers, coaches and athletes that have bought/are buying drugs. I for one would happily pay him for that information. Unfortunately for both him and me the IAAF doesn't really want to know that info at the moment.
Maybe they will soon though

azania wrote:

What was Gemili's PB a year ago and what is it today?

Sprinters are getting faster because Bolt has set the bar incredibly high. Look at Gay for instance. Training harder and were it not for injuries I believe he would have run low 9.6. I am not surprised about Blake. Look who he trains with. He is known for being a very hard worker. Plus for such a short guy he has a huge stride length and great cadence.

Fantastic times are being run because people are training harder and the impossible is attainable. Bolt has dragged many (not british) faster. The Caribbean Anglosphere is reaping the reward.

The power of yam and hard food is there for all to see.

Gemili is one guy on his own (congrats on getting his name right, by the way.) I would have my doubts if 10 of his training partners suddenly made vast improvements into world class at the same time also.

Improvements (particularly at a very young age for an unexposed athlete) are not cause for suspicion. I've never based anything I've said solely on the fact that Bolt improved quickly. The fact that a bunch of other athletes that were around Bolt at the time also made sudden improvements, and that some of them were in their late 20s was a bigger problem for me.

But it could be the sunshine and yams, as you say, oh and training harder of course. Which begs the question, why weren't people training very hard 10-20-30 years ago? Why did it take one little Carribbean island to teach the world that if you train harder, you run faster? You would have thought somebody might have thought of that before now.

"If Bolt is juicing he would be the most stupid man in the world.

First he doesnt need juice to beat the rest of the field"

I have a worrying feeling that your arguement as to why bolt is clean is the fact that he's very fast?
If so then point well made.

"Gemili is one guy on his own (congrats on getting his name right, by the way.) I would have my doubts if 10 of his training partners suddenly made vast improvements into world class at the same time also."

Asafa Powell was one guy on this own. Prior to Bolt et al.

This is a golden age for Jamaican and Caribbean Athletics as a whole. Simillar to spain current footballers. They were there or there about without dominating until this recent generation.

Regarding the Yams. dont de sarcastic. It has been peeri reviewed that it contains a constiutent that contribute/release more energy. I will dig it up for you.

Just like the maize meal for the Kenyan Runners. Mo went there and train as well , including the diet.

Could the criticism and suspicions be a case of first world arrogance?

A tiny Caribbean nation cannot do so well without doping.

Nothing to do with excellent coaching, the genetic lottery, proper training regime and the social and cultural infrasture.

Are the above the preserve of the so called first world.

This reminds me of when the Young chinese swimmners broke the world record at the olympics. The UK and US raised suspicion.

The young Trinadadian won the Javelin at London 2012.

Where did that come from? He is not suppose to do that. The Javelin belongs to Finland, et al.

He must be doping?

Regarding conte's 60%. Where did he get that figure from. did he just think it up or does he have facts to back it up?

I can come and say that 70% of British Rowers and Cyclist are cheating. Does that mean that I am right.



""Gemili is one guy on his own (congrats on getting his name right, by the way.) I would have my doubts if 10 of his training partners suddenly made vast improvements into world class at the same time also"

The same cant be say of all the British Cyclist. There is now a generation of them winning medals. The same Team GB that won 1 gold at Atlanta.
Why were they not training hard 16 years ago?
Suspicous anyone?

djkbrown2001 wrote:

Nothing to do with excellent coaching, the genetic lottery, proper training regime and the social and cultural infrasture.

Are the above the preserve of the so called first world.

So what you're saying is that the Carribbean has these things, but the rest of the world somehow doesn't?

"So what you're saying is that the Carribbean has these things, but the rest of the world somehow doesn't?"

Well look at London 2012. Anecdotal evidence would suggest that the Caribbean do have these things compositely more than the rest of the world especially in the sprints.

This is not a racial issue. Africa. How many medals have they won. Apart from the Kenyans and Ethiopians? Population of Black Africa - 700 million.

The Anglophone Caribbean won 18 medals. 7 gold. Won all the male sprints competition apart from the 110m hurdles.

Something is going on here (Less than 5 million people , 18 medals).

What is it? Is it doping? Is it due to some of the factors i alluded to above , plus a tradition of athletic excellence? Look at the facts and make a rational conclusion.

Britain will dominate the paralympics because there is a tradtion long (it started there) established in Britain surrounding disable people being engaged in sport.

Plus the social, physical,financial and enviornmental infrastures are in place.

I dont expect a Caribbean athlete to win the paralympics sprints.
Why? because there are no infrasture in place for disable people in the caribbean.

The GB discuss thrower will probably win gold. Bet if he was in Fiji - he wouldnt be even competing in the paralympics.