Some things are just too obvious!!!

First topic message reminder :

Olympics shot put: Nadzeya Ostapchuk stripped of gold medal


http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/olympics/19242736
Somethings were just too obvious! Was to me - as I'm sure it was to the many millions more around the world

She could've at least made an effort on the day to look her best and make it appear less obvious.

You got to laugh at Brett Morse's comments

And the fact that he had to apologise - only for us all to find that he was bang on! [ Though he might've been more diplomatic ].

Finally, sad that Valerie Adams had to win her Gold like that - but at least Ostapchuk got caught, and the right person gets to be called the Olympic champion

while you make some good points djk, and in particular your point about "first world arrogance" may have some merit, there's a couple of things I'd like to pick you up on:

1) The Trinidadian javelin thrower. There's less suspicion (in my case no suspicion at all) there simply because in javelin terms his performance wasn't all that great. Not knocking the guy, but the length he threw was fairly ordinary by previous gold winning standards. What you have to understand is that the suspicion isn't necessarily coming from Jamaica dominating the sprints, it's coming from the times they're producing (which would have been scarecely believable pre-Bolt). Also the fact they're so many of them producing these times.

2) Really, don't use the Chinese swimmer as an example. I'm willing to believe a lot of things, but she's just not one of them. Swimming a negative (and faster than Lochte) freestyle split in a 400 IM medley?!?! Sorry, just don't buy it...

azania wrote:

english_osprey wrote:chelsea boy

I have never said that all athletes are on drugs and I don't believe that they are for a minute. However I do think that my new best friend Victor isn't far off the mark when he suggests that about 12 of the top 20 in every event took peds in the year prior to the OG.

There is indeed a huge difference between running 10.05 and 9.6ish. Reducing an already world class time to one approaching fantasy land would take a gigantic amount of effort. I think you might have to be a sprinter or to have been a sprinter to appreciate that.


Good point re the TdF (of which I am a huge fan). Despite the advances in technology times are actually slower now which surely suggests that something was certainly amiss in the past and is perhaps slowly being remedied?
As you point out the reverse seems to be happening in athletics. Fantastic times are being run that destroy those set by proven drug-cheats. What's going on?

Anti -carribean? Remember that you aren't allowed to criticize black athletes, it's racist see? The racism card is the lazy man's way of trying to stifle arguement and discussion. Whereas my opposition to drug cheats of any colour is well documented, white uk athletes, white eastern european athletes chinese athletes for example as well as the more obvious, US jamaican, ethiopian, and kenyan targets.

What was Gemili's PB a year ago and what is it today?

Sprinters are getting faster because Bolt has set the bar incredibly high. Look at Gay for instance. Training harder and were it not for injuries I believe he would have run low 9.6. I am not surprised about Blake. Look who he trains with. He is known for being a very hard worker. Plus for such a short guy he has a huge stride length and great cadence.

Fantastic times are being run because people are training harder and the impossible is attainable. Bolt has dragged many (not british) faster. The Caribbean Anglosphere is reaping the reward.

The power of yam and hard food is there for all to see.

Gee whizz! That is one romanticised perception of sprinting and Jamaican athletes! Haven't the Jamaican authorities had problems being a bit sloppy with their anti-dpoing strategies? What about runners like Ray Stewart and Merlene Ottey being in trouble in the past?

I would really hate it if Bolt was anything other than clean. The reason he's so fast is because of his enormous stride length and speed of stride. To have an athlete so tall have the stride speed of a guy around 5ft 10 is incredible and that's how the guy motors so fast. This Yohan Blake I'm not at all sure of though.......

"Gee whizz! That is one romanticised perception of sprinting and Jamaican athletes! Haven't the Jamaican authorities had problems being a bit sloppy with their anti-dpoing strategies?"

On what premise have you base your arguements?

In what way are they sloppy? What do you or anyone know about Jamaican Doping Strategies? Can you point out the failings in their strategy.

JADCO if you ever heard of it. Is assessed and approved by WADA just like the UK and other doping angencies.

Go onto WADA website/IAAF website , do a search and you will get all the facts.

The argument put forward my mr Pound about Jamaican athletes cant be found for out of competition testing has no facts. A simply WADA search will attest to that.

Jamaican athletes are among the most out of competition tested athletes. I can provide evidence to support that.

This was discussed on another thread (see out of competition testing thread) and have been put to rest.

The Merlene Ottey test was messed up by the Lab, so that wasnt conclusive. She was cleared off all wrong doing. Furthemore there was some issues with Nandrolone at that time.

Even the Linford case is a bit dodgy. Why would he want to dope at the end of his career , when it is obvious he could not win and have is legacy to lose?

"Really, don't use the Chinese swimmer as an example. I'm willing to believe a lot of things, but she's just not one of them. Swimming a negative (and faster than Lochte) freestyle split in a 400 IM medley?!?! Sorry, just don't buy it..."

Chelsea.

Lochte did not go all out on his final split, unlike the Chinese Swimmer. So it is not inconcievable that she went faster. Therefore we need to put that into perspective.

The blood testing at London run by GSK (which is a Western Company at the cutting edge of technology) is the most advance to date) every medallist have been tested. She wasnt tested positive, so i am prepare to give here the benefit of the doubt.

Or it could be a case of the Jamaicans and the Chinese inventing a super clear that can go undected thereby outwitting western technology. This would not be good for western technological reputation.

Nothing was 'put to rest' as such. JADCO still doesn't perform out of competition testing very much (if at all), and is 100% reliant on the IAAF flying in and carrying out the testing themselves.

The downside of this method is that if an athlete isn't there, they can't get tested. Because of the sheer number of athletes in the world, it's impractical to use the 'one hour of each day' system that is generally used by national anti-doping agencies these days. Therefore, if an athlete isn't where they're supposed to be, it doesn't actually count as a missed test if they give a good reason.

Given that no athlete has ever been suspended for 3 missed tests from testing by the IAAF, I would imagine the reason for not being there doesn't actually have to be that good.

djkbrown2001 wrote:
Could the criticism and suspicions be a case of first world arrogance?

A tiny Caribbean nation cannot do so well without doping.

Nothing to do with excellent coaching, the genetic lottery, proper training regime and the social and cultural infrasture.

Are the above the preserve of the so called first world.

This reminds me of when the Young chinese swimmners broke the world record at the olympics. The UK and US raised suspicion.

The young Trinadadian won the Javelin at London 2012.

Where did that come from? He is not suppose to do that. The Javelin belongs to Finland, et al.

He must be doping?

Regarding conte's 60%. Where did he get that figure from. did he just think it up or does he have facts to back it up?

I can come and say that 70% of British Rowers and Cyclist are cheating. Does that mean that I am right.



""Gemili is one guy on his own (congrats on getting his name right, by the way.) I would have my doubts if 10 of his training partners suddenly made vast improvements into world class at the same time also"

The same cant be say of all the British Cyclist. There is now a generation of them winning medals. The same Team GB that won 1 gold at Atlanta.
Why were they not training hard 16 years ago?
Suspicous anyone?

Am only putting it out there djk that it seems unlikely that things are as rosy as Azania pictures them.

Wasn't Ray Stewart banned as a coach? Jerome Young? Have read stuff about Yohan Blake failing tests in national competitions although I' not endowed with the details on that.....??

I don't buy this theory that to raise the bar athletes are working ever harder and harder. There's only so much a body can cope with before it breaks and that's usually when PEDs, HGH, EPO, THG and all that business rears its ugly head to increase the body's capacity to train harder and recover more quickly

I actaully think Bolt is a freakish talent so don't consider him dirty in any way (I hope not) although I have a nasty feeling that people like Blake are doing stuff they shouldn't do in order to keep up. Seems hugely unlikey that Blake could improve so quickly, especially over the 200m.

As for the GB cycling team well I wouldn't rule it out there's something dodgy about that lot as well.

oh she may well not have been doping at the Games themselves, but I just can't believe this one, sorry. saying "Lochte wasn't going flat out" is a bit like saying something like "El Guerrouj didn't go flat out in the final lap there": you still wouldn't expect a female athlete to run it quicker than him.

"JADCO still doesn't perform out of competition testing very much (if at all)".

If that was the case they wouldnt have been approved by WADA.

Check the JADCO website and their annual report to WADA for the facts.

I am also glad that the IAAF does test Jamaican athletes as well. The more the better.

Furthermore it is not difficult to find the athletes in Jamaica. Everyone knows where the MVP track club is based. At UTECH and in Italy.

Racers Track Club based at UWI. In addition Jamaica is only 4,411 SQ miles. Not a big place at all. So athletes can be found.

Yeah I agree that Chinese girl looked dodgy. She looked weird. She had a pretty face but it seemed filled out in a masculine way. A bit like Michelle De Bruin.

Super D Boon wrote:Yeah I agree that Chinese girl looked dodgy. She looked weird. She had a pretty face but it seemed filled out in a masculine way. A bit like Michelle De Bruin.

or Caster Semenya, or even that Belarussian shotputter...

alfie wrote:Just in general , I am rather saddened by the way in which excellence of performance is becoming reason to suspect a team or individual of skulduggery even in the absence of any other evidence.
Yes a lot of people have been proved to have been cheating , and there are those who regularly trot out made up "statistics" ie complete guesses that x % of medal winners etc are on the stuff...but do we all have to adopt cynicism as a default position ?
The GB track cyclists for example have achieved wonderful results at the recent Olympics : should this be so surprising ? Brailsford told anyone who was listening that they had been planning to peak precisely for this event for the last four years , and results in between were of relatively minor significance. And of course the same riders who triumphed in London were often beaten in recent years by French ,German and Australian riders. If winning were down to illicit methods , surely they would have been winning all the time - unless of course the other teams were doing the same...which just takes us round in circles...
Sometimes it just is a combination of talented athletes , excellent management and painstaking attention to detail.

Re Jamaican sprinting : Bolt is a freak. I think most people agree with that. I don't think Blake's minor slip is automatically a pointer to his having indulged in any serious PEDs. As has been pointed out he was a very talented junior and even if his recent times have been remarkable they don't in themselves prove anything untoward. Remember he has had some powerful competition among his countrymen and competition certainly fuels rapid development in a group - think it was just a coincidence Coe/ Ovett/Cram all came together ? Their effect lasted a little longer with the likes of Peter Elliot but then the chain was broken and sadly British middle distance is looking pretty ordinary today...
At the moment Jamaican sprinting dominance looks well entrenched so it will be interesting to see where things stand a few years hence.

Also worth keeping in mind that eventually someone usually talks , so if anything dodgy has been going on (on an organized scale , not talking about the odd individual) , it will probably come out sooner or later. Just for now I prefer to enjoy the sport and regard people as honest until shown otherwise.

Stonking post

"on an organized scale , not talking about the odd individual"

Just to add to that - organise scale would suggest a national (backed by the government ) doping programmne simillar to the Soviet and former East Germany.

Jamaica would have to have some advance science to outwit the chemical and medical technology of the first world. They dont even have money to invest in proper gyms, let alone to invest in the development a Superior PED that can go undected by the most advance testing system ever.

Some might argue that they might get the PED from other developed countries , but this beg the questions. Why dont those countries/chemist sell it to athletes from the richer countries, I am sure they would get a better price for their products.

If you look at most of the athletes who were implicated in the Balco 'clear scandal' - from the advance countries.

We can agree there is a problem. There is a very definite
problem.

We only need look at the shot putter, Nadzeya Ostapchuk - about whom the thread was started. There are a number of others we could guess at - and we'd probably be right [ and I hope they get caught and, at the very least, be made to look seriously foolish ].

We need appropriate punishment for transgressions. 4 year ban - to conincide with missing an Olympics. Straight up.

But is the problem as widespread as some would prefer to think?!

I'm not surprised at the times being run in the 100m [ though I lack confidence in a few of the sprinters out there ].

What would it take to get the most out of a human being? [ Legally, of course! ]. Advances in technique, training, conditioning, preparation of all kinds has enabled the events to move on from the days of Hayes and Wells - even Carl Lewis.

In looking at the British track cycling team and dicussion around their focus / philosophy around marginal gains - we get some good idea of what is possible if the right degree attention is paid to every aspect of a sport and the athletes concerned. They look at everything [ diet, sleep, rest etc ].

Look at how Mo Farah has progressed. The regime he's been on with Alberto Salazar has transformed him from being a nice guy, almost laughed at by the previously dominant Kenyans and Ethiopians, to now being the man to beat and no longer a laughing matter; that same programme in Oregon has taken his friend and training partner, Galen Rupp, to a 10, 000m sliver. Of the two, that latter is even more remarkable! They run 120 miles per week, but yet make sure they don't over-train!

A great deal has changed over the last 15 - 20 years.

There is a very real science behind sport in terms of extracting the very best from an individual. The idea that we shouldn't be overshooting sprint records and marks set 10 - 20 years ago doesn't make sense to me. These are events in which major advances in performance were waiting to be made. Not saying that all performances are clean. But have my own opinions regarding who to have confidence in and who not to.

There are events where transformational advances in performance will be harder to make; namely, anything where gravity plays a greater role i.e. High Jump; Long Jump; Shot Putt; Pole Vault; Triple Jump; Hammer. Here, there would seem to be more obvious limitations.

sj

i am sure you're a lovely man who desperately wants track and field to be clean, don't we all.
However the grim reality is that it is very very dirty. It's in a similar position to cycling a couple of years ago. There are lots of drug takers - follow victor conte on twitter if you dont believe it

A recent example
http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/yankees/organization-calls-pro-sports-toughen-testing-article-1.1145776?localLinksEnabled=false

another one
http://latino.foxnews.com/latino/sports/2012/08/25/from-armstrong-to-cabrera-murky-world-athletic-drug-testing/

in which dick pound reckons that only one in 10 ped abuser is caught


The problem(if it can be called that) with many people on this site is that they are very reasonable. Lets give them the benefit of the doubt, never failed a drug test, innocent until provern guilty etc.
All very laudable but unfortunately music to the ears of drug cheats. While we continue to give them the benefit of the doubt they will carry on cheating and slowly but surely they will also steal the sport we (just about still) love away from us.
How so? Because as in cycling a couple of years ago when some athletes decide to take peds (for whatever reason) the rest of the athletes have a stark choice either join in and cheat or refuse to succumb and fall by the wayside. Simple as that. As more and more turn to drugs the performances begin to tumble and then you have to take just to turn in a credible performance, never mind win.

I seriously don't want this to be true but unfortunately it is. The amorality of the ped manufacturers, the greed of the athletes, the gullibility of the supporters and the cowardice of the IAAF have conspired to produce a situation that puts the entire sport in great jeopardy. For example the introduction of a test for synthetic testosterone would wreak havoc in track and field. There is the technology to do it but will the IAAF adopt it? What do you think?

EO

I don't deny that there are PED users - and plenty of them.

But the standards and marks that have been reached, in some events, have been achieved by athletes I would have confidence in. They are competing against athletes who are or might be cheating. A yet, we do not know for sure who all of them are. Some of these cheats have won - one or two get caught. Others will be found our later on. I am always suspicious. Was of Nadzeya Ostapchuk. And also suspicous of that Algerian middle distance runner [ something needs to wipe the smirk off his face! ]. It's 5h1tty when a cheat is competing - even 5h1tti3r when one wins. Can only hope they get caught in time. Like Nadzeya Ostapchuk

But there remain athletes that I'm more confident about. They've set genuine standards and marks. That's where I try to keep my focus.

Mad for Chelsea wrote:oh she may well not have been doping at the Games themselves, but I just can't believe this one, sorry. saying "Lochte wasn't going flat out" is a bit like saying something like "El Guerrouj didn't go flat out in the final lap there": you still wouldn't expect a female athlete to run it quicker than him.

Becki Adlington's final split in the 800 was also faster than Lochte. He was well slow. Or Adlington's doping too.

Of course she isn't. She's Anglo Saxon and British. The 15 year old American girl who broke the world record and won gold is clearly not doping even though she swam faster than Lochte in her final split.

But the 16 year old Chinese girl is clearly doping.

english_osprey wrote:sj

i am sure you're a lovely man who desperately wants track and field to be clean, don't we all.
However the grim reality is that it is very very dirty. It's in a similar position to cycling a couple of years ago. There are lots of drug takers - follow victor conte on twitter if you dont believe it

A recent example
http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/yankees/organization-calls-pro-sports-toughen-testing-article-1.1145776?localLinksEnabled=false

another one
http://latino.foxnews.com/latino/sports/2012/08/25/from-armstrong-to-cabrera-murky-world-athletic-drug-testing/

in which dick pound reckons that only one in 10 ped abuser is caught


The problem(if it can be called that) with many people on this site is that they are very reasonable. Lets give them the benefit of the doubt, never failed a drug test, innocent until provern guilty etc.
All very laudable but unfortunately music to the ears of drug cheats. While we continue to give them the benefit of the doubt they will carry on cheating and slowly but surely they will also steal the sport we (just about still) love away from us.
How so? Because as in cycling a couple of years ago when some athletes decide to take peds (for whatever reason) the rest of the athletes have a stark choice either join in and cheat or refuse to succumb and fall by the wayside. Simple as that. As more and more turn to drugs the performances begin to tumble and then you have to take just to turn in a credible performance, never mind win.

I seriously don't want this to be true but unfortunately it is. The amorality of the ped manufacturers, the greed of the athletes, the gullibility of the supporters and the cowardice of the IAAF have conspired to produce a situation that puts the entire sport in great jeopardy. For example the introduction of a test for synthetic testosterone would wreak havoc in track and field. There is the technology to do it but will the IAAF adopt it? What do you think?

Cycling ias probably dirtier than a couple of years ago. Take Team GB for example. Smashing world records for fun and beating everyone out of sight. Clearly a case of doping if there ever was one. Wasn't Wiggins dad a PED abuser also? Like father like son probably.

sj

I respect your reasonable viewpoint and honestly hope that you're right and I'm wromg

azania wrote:

english_osprey wrote:sj

i am sure you're a lovely man who desperately wants track and field to be clean, don't we all.
However the grim reality is that it is very very dirty. It's in a similar position to cycling a couple of years ago. There are lots of drug takers - follow victor conte on twitter if you dont believe it

A recent example
http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/yankees/organization-calls-pro-sports-toughen-testing-article-1.1145776?localLinksEnabled=false

another one
http://latino.foxnews.com/latino/sports/2012/08/25/from-armstrong-to-cabrera-murky-world-athletic-drug-testing/

in which dick pound reckons that only one in 10 ped abuser is caught


The problem(if it can be called that) with many people on this site is that they are very reasonable. Lets give them the benefit of the doubt, never failed a drug test, innocent until provern guilty etc.
All very laudable but unfortunately music to the ears of drug cheats. While we continue to give them the benefit of the doubt they will carry on cheating and slowly but surely they will also steal the sport we (just about still) love away from us.
How so? Because as in cycling a couple of years ago when some athletes decide to take peds (for whatever reason) the rest of the athletes have a stark choice either join in and cheat or refuse to succumb and fall by the wayside. Simple as that. As more and more turn to drugs the performances begin to tumble and then you have to take just to turn in a credible performance, never mind win.

I seriously don't want this to be true but unfortunately it is. The amorality of the ped manufacturers, the greed of the athletes, the gullibility of the supporters and the cowardice of the IAAF have conspired to produce a situation that puts the entire sport in great jeopardy. For example the introduction of a test for synthetic testosterone would wreak havoc in track and field. There is the technology to do it but will the IAAF adopt it? What do you think?

Cycling ias probably dirtier than a couple of years ago. Take Team GB for example. Smashing world records for fun and beating everyone out of sight. Clearly a case of doping if there ever was one. Wasn't Wiggins dad a PED abuser also? Like father like son probably.

I think you could be right. I also think the Jamaicans are doping and can't believe the rapid rise of Johan Blake for example. I think everyone is doping. Let's unite in our mutual doubts about each other's athletes. Let's all join hands and sing with me.....

"We are the world, we are the children"

English and Dj ,

You keep quoting Victor Conte. Victor Conte say this and say that> Of course he will , he trying to remain relevant and trying to hug the limelight.

Victor Conte says 60% of athletes are doping. Where did he get this figure from? Has he got hard facts to backit up?

Donbt get me wrong. Of course people are doping. But I cant put a figure on it. And anyone attempting to put a figure on it is just guess work and hearsay.

The same goes for Dick Pound, I know he is fromer boss of WADA. But he does talk out of his rear orifice at times. Like is recent remarks that said that jamaican athletes cant be found for out of competition testing. When all the evidence and facts suggest otherwise.

It would appear that DJ/Eng is suggesting that the IAAF is colluding or turning a blind eye to dopers. You guys even imply that the IAAF would cover up a positive test for one of the big guys.

It would also appear that English and DJ have no faith in the current drug testing regime. I beg to differ and as London showed cheaters will be caught.

If the current regime is not robust enough , it is incumbent on WADA and the IAAf to sort it out. But I am willing to stick my neck out and say that this is the cleanest the sports have been.

The test run in London by GSK (blood testing) is the most advance ever. So until someone is caught I am prepare to give them the benefit of the doubt. Because I have no evidence to suggest that they are doping.

Not because you are suspcious of someone means that they are guilty. You cant convict base on that - if we do that we desend into anarchy.

What this boils down to is simple. Cycling - cleaner than ever before - Team GB dominating.

Swimming - ambivalent and probably when a Chinese swimmer breaks a world record. Clean when its a US or Anglo Saxon swimmer.

Athletics - dirty but Jamaicans/Caribbean runners are the dirtiest.

As for Blake. 10.07 as a 17 year old. He then runs 9.69 as a 23 year old. What's the big deal? He has done the conversion which a lazy and fat MLF had the potential to do but didn't.

Gemili ran 10.05 as an 18 year old with very little training. A good clean English runner (until he takes a cough mixture and he will be an Iranian born runner). Any idea what his time last summer was? Plus he's knocked off a tenth off his 200m time. That is unbelievable. Clearly the Iranian boy is doping.

I reckon 100% of Caribbean trained athletes are clean. Its those who go to USA or Europe who are dirty. In fact I'll say 99% of EU and USA trained runners are dopers. I get my figures from the same place Conte and Pound get their from.

On a more serious note about training harder. Didn't Simeon Whatshisname go to Jamaica to train and was described as lazy?

All sports are dirty.

You must be very niaive to think otherwise.

I reckon 100% of Caribbean trained athletes are clean. Its those who go to USA or Europe who are dirty. In fact I'll say 99% of EU and USA trained runners are dopers. I get my figures from the same place Conte and Pound get their from.

------------

How convenient for you to "reckon" that. Could it be that you are of West African ancestry by any chanc

Yep. Same ancestry as Ben Johnson, Linford Christie, Carl Lewis, Dwain Chambers et al. All Euro based or US based.

Your point again?

I'll add that the Jamaican who got a life ban (Mullens) was based in USA. That's why I said Jamaican trained as opposed to Jamaican.

I only hope that English and Dj are not in law enforcement, the judiciary, or on any panel that have to despense justice.

Because if they suspect you and dont like you, You will be locked up convicted and sent away. Regardless of the evidence.

Based on their assertions. We should ban all top sprinters especially the jamaicans because they suspect them of doping.

Kangaroo style justice. Rationale thinking , evidence and facts do not play a part.

"What this boils down to is simple. Cycling - cleaner than ever before - Team GB dominating".

Truer word have never been spoken.

I am pretty sure that the technology available to testing cyclist is available to test atheltics. And is being used. After all WADA sets doping standards across all sports.

So if cylcing is cleaner than before, athletics must be cleaner than before.

People keep going on about. how come a small country can produce so many fast athletes.

How come Serbia a small country , poorer than UK can produce so many top class tennis players as compared to the UK?

How come NZ tiny population can put out such great Rugby Teams as compared to England?



Why NI won more Golf Majors in recent years than England?

Why is Jamaica so great in the sprints? Why is Brasil great in football? Why is England so great in the sitting down sports or non mobile sports (darts)?

Darts isnt a sport.

You are obviously not familiar with the 'sport test'.

djkbrown2001 wrote:

"What this boils down to is simple. Cycling - cleaner than ever before - Team GB dominating".

Truer word have never been spoken.

I am pretty sure that the technology available to testing cyclist is available to test atheltics. And is being used. After all WADA sets doping standards across all sports.

So if cylcing is cleaner than before, athletics must be cleaner than before.

Of course its available. It must boil down to that genetic theory. But this time its about people from the Caribbean who train in the caribbean. These guys are iummune to tests. As soon as they train in Europe or USA their immunity drops.

Go figure.

Don't forget snooker (although those drug addled Chinese will soon dominate it).

If hooliganism were a sport ....... ! Nah, Russians and eastern euros rule that.

British athletes Jonathan Fox and Sarah Storey broke world records on day one of the London 2012 paralympics!

Swimmer Fox set London's first world record, before cyclist Storey broke her own time in the C5 individual pursuit.

I wonder if they are doping? Those world records seem suspicous?

You're embarrassing yourself now guys.

It's the problem when people who have very little knowledge of a sport try to get opinionated, particularly on subjects that could be controversial.

We all know about Az. He's just a parody figure really, nobody takes a word he says seriously anymore.

"Az hates us Anglo Saxon English so much yet he continues to live in the country."

How do you know that he is living in the Country?

I am currently posting from (living and working in) Central Asia. 3.5 hours ahead of UK. now finish work hence the reason why I am on here and posting at these times.

Don't assume without having evidence.

Lumbering_Jack wrote:Az hates us Anglo Saxon English so much yet he continues to live in the country.

Grow up, you're like a broken record.

And you sound Personal atttack removed - KRD.

Do you know what boys?

I'm afraid that I'm made a simple schoolboy error.
I've made the rash assumption that Victor Conte the man at the centre of the BALCO scandal and chemist to the stars, and Dick Pound who is a former IOC vice-president, lawyer and president of WADA would know more about the current drug scene than you intellectual titans.
What a fool I've been!
I know accept that your brilliant wit, multitude of factual evidence and deep, deep knowledge make it almost impossible to argue my case. You can be certain that the IAAF hierarchy once they read this forum will be beating a path to your respective doors rather than deal with those (what I now realise)sad imposters messrs Pound and Conte!

djkbrown2001 wrote:

How do you know that he is living in the Country?

I am currently posting from (living and working in) Central Asia. 3.5 hours ahead of UK. now finish work hence the reason why I am on here and posting at these times.

Don't assume without having evidence.

Is having had to put up with Azania waffle on about his life-story whilst using it as some sort of backup for the weak argument he was currently making enough evidence for knowing that he lives in the UK?

Anyone who's discussed anything with that guy on these boards knows where he's from, where he came from, and how he had to work so much harder than everyone else therefore his argument is right and there's no discussion. That's the general pattern.

djlovesyou wrote:You're embarrassing yourself now guys.

It's the problem when people who have very little knowledge of a sport try to get opinionated, particularly on subjects that could be controversial.

We all know about Az. He's just a parody figure really, nobody takes a word he says seriously anymore.

He also disses the majority race of the country he lives in ie. "anglo saxons". I'd hate myself if I lived in Jamaica and claimed all Jamaicans were cheats yet Euro athletes are symbols of virtue and are all clean.

" Dick Pound who is a former IOC vice-president, lawyer and president f WADA would know more about the current drug scene than you intellectual titans.
What a fool I've been!
"

By that reasoning English. Dick Pound is a failure then. And he should not be in his position and should not have held the position as former WADA chief because is method is not effective, if 90% of cheats are/were getting away.

So maybe Mr Dick needs to look long and hard at is position then.

djkbrown2001 wrote:"Az hates us Anglo Saxon English so much yet he continues to live in the country."

How do you know that he is living in the Country?

I am currently posting from (living and working in) Central Asia. 3.5 hours ahead of UK. now finish work hence the reason why I am on here and posting at these times.

Don't assume without having evidence.

I didnt assume anything, you did.

Learn how to use the quote button will you.

I am not going to partake, involve and condone race baiting.

Where you are from and what colour you are have no bearing on the contents of ones character.

I have lived and work in Jamaica, Europe, UK, Africa, ME and now Central Asia and I can asure you people are more simillar than what many would like to think.

There are good and bad everywhere.

This thread have digress from its original intent, So I will now rest my case.

djkbrown2001 wrote:" Dick Pound who is a former IOC vice-president, lawyer and president f WADA would know more about the current drug scene than you intellectual titans.
What a fool I've been!
"

By that reasoning English. Dick Pound is a failure then. And he should not be in his position and should not have held the position as former WADA chief because is method is not effective, if 90% of cheats are/were getting away.

So maybe Mr Dick needs to look long and hard at is position then.

Dick Pound was embarrassing. A frustrated former athlete who got ripped off by dopers in his day pretty much thought everyone was cheating except him. He didn't care about clean or dirty just so long as his rants made the sports pages. Made some idiotic claims along the lines of 70% of the NFL were juicing yet was never able to back up such sweeping statements. I was glad to see the back of him.

That is pretty idiotic.

He went as low as 70%?

djlovesyou wrote:That is pretty idiotic.

He went as low as 70%?

DJ is it really THAT bad?

Damn it! Bring back Allan Wells and Silvio Leonard. The guys clocked 100m in 10.25 seconds with Wells winning by photo. Not so much juice around back then. 10.25 is definitely believable.

Super D Boon wrote:

djlovesyou wrote:That is pretty idiotic.

He went as low as 70%?

DJ is it really THAT bad?

Damn it! Bring back Allan Wells and Silvio Leonard. The guys clocked 100m in 10.25 seconds with Wells winning by photo. Not so much juice around back then. 10.25 is definitely believable.

Wells had run 10.11 in the quarter finals. He said he felt the wind in his face in the final despite the official wind reading being positive (he was in lane 8 while the wind guage would be next to lane 1). I think the wind did odd things in that stadium, allegedly, the men's 400m final had a following wind all the way around! The same stadium is being used for the Worlds next year.

trickstat wrote:

Super D Boon wrote:

djlovesyou wrote:That is pretty idiotic.

He went as low as 70%?

DJ is it really THAT bad?

Damn it! Bring back Allan Wells and Silvio Leonard. The guys clocked 100m in 10.25 seconds with Wells winning by photo. Not so much juice around back then. 10.25 is definitely believable.

Wells had run 10.11 in the quarter finals. He said he felt the wind in his face in the final despite the official wind reading being positive (he was in lane 8 while the wind guage would be next to lane 1). I think the wind did odd things in that stadium, allegedly, the men's 400m final had a following wind all the way around! The same stadium is being used for the Worlds next year.

Wells was a fine sprinter for his time and unequivocally clean compared to sprinters these days being so dubious. The slow time was due to the wretched conditions and an undoubtedly slow track. These days the tracks are designed to be as fast as possible like the London track. Wells also handed the US thier backsides on a plate in a race in Germany two weeks later dispelling the myth he was lucky the yanks weren't there.

Super D Boon wrote:

trickstat wrote:

Super D Boon wrote:

djlovesyou wrote:That is pretty idiotic.

He went as low as 70%?

DJ is it really THAT bad?

Damn it! Bring back Allan Wells and Silvio Leonard. The guys clocked 100m in 10.25 seconds with Wells winning by photo. Not so much juice around back then. 10.25 is definitely believable.

Wells had run 10.11 in the quarter finals. He said he felt the wind in his face in the final despite the official wind reading being positive (he was in lane 8 while the wind guage would be next to lane 1). I think the wind did odd things in that stadium, allegedly, the men's 400m final had a following wind all the way around! The same stadium is being used for the Worlds next year.

Wells was a fine sprinter for his time and unequivocally clean compared to sprinters these days being so dubious. The slow time was due to the wretched conditions and an undoubtedly slow track. These days the tracks are designed to be as fast as possible like the London track. Wells also handed the US thier backsides on a plate in a race in Germany two weeks later dispelling the myth he was lucky the yanks weren't there.

Some remarkable facts and trivia you've pulled from the top drawer there, Trickstart. I especially like the one about the men's 400m final and the wind following them all the way round

Keep 'em coming

I've run on tracks that have felt like you're running into a headwind for the majority of the way round, but that's usually just psychological.

Super D Boon wrote:

trickstat wrote:

Super D Boon wrote:

djlovesyou wrote:That is pretty idiotic.

He went as low as 70%?

DJ is it really THAT bad?

Damn it! Bring back Allan Wells and Silvio Leonard. The guys clocked 100m in 10.25 seconds with Wells winning by photo. Not so much juice around back then. 10.25 is definitely believable.

Wells had run 10.11 in the quarter finals. He said he felt the wind in his face in the final despite the official wind reading being positive (he was in lane 8 while the wind guage would be next to lane 1). I think the wind did odd things in that stadium, allegedly, the men's 400m final had a following wind all the way around! The same stadium is being used for the Worlds next year.

Wells was a fine sprinter for his time and unequivocally clean compared to sprinters these days being so dubious. The slow time was due to the wretched conditions and an undoubtedly slow track. These days the tracks are designed to be as fast as possible like the London track. Wells also handed the US thier backsides on a plate in a race in Germany two weeks later dispelling the myth he was lucky the yanks weren't there.

Just to add that Wells was competing in an era where juicers were miles ahead of testers. 2 British 400m runners (Donna Hartley and some guy) were both done for drugs whilst running in that era. Why do you say he is unequivocally clean? Many of the yanks competing then were on gear and probably all eastern euro sprinters were taking everything.