Irish Independent on Premiership and Heineken Cup

First topic message reminder :

This was posted on the Chiefs board desperate for bigger slice of the pie and the following extract from it.

"I note that the Exeter Chiefs, who won 12 of their games in the Aviva Premiership and finished fifth, which apparently entitles them on merit to come to Dublin to face Leinster on Saturday, October 13 in the first match in Pool 5. The only thing that is standing between Exeter and a rapid-eye-movement nightmare of a thrashing is that Leinster might not be fully up to speed or indeed battle-hardened; certainly their top-tier players will not be fully up to pace. If Leinster had left their contingent in New Zealand for the whole summer playing the All Blacks three times a week and went home in an air ambulance to face Exeter, they would still put 50 points on them. Whichever way you look at it, it's not a level playing field. Exeter have qualified by right, but they are not good enough to be in this competition."

hmmm couldn't find the emoticon to go with this but maybe you can suggest one

HERSH wrote:England and France hold all the cards IMO.

Money talks and all that....

Sadly this is the case and a dark day for rugby when countries are using cash to bully others like this.

Still if thats the way it is, thats the way it is.

Much better for the Celtic unions (and Italians) to use their more votes to force the English and French clubs to do what they want? After all minorities don't matter.

And if the English and French are doing this for more money then the others don't want because they want that money. The question is who deserves it?

Either the French and English clubs generate more income, in which case they don't want to support the celtic unions as much anymore.

Or they don't generate more income and then their reserve competition won't give them more money and will be less stable so they'll stay.

It'll come out in the negotiations.

Sam

Sadly this is the case and a dark day for rugby when countries are using cash to bully others like this.

quote]Sadly this is the case and a dark day for rugby when countries are using cash to bully others like this.[/quote]

I agree.

But isn't that the reason the Rabo was formed?

Money doesn't talk it swears (© Dylan).

But they haven't have they Sam - yet? In fact I doubt it's ever even crossed their collective minds that the two stances are mutually exclusive.

But it does highlight once again the paucity of joined-up thinking at the RFU/PRL.

Posit this: OW come bottom of the table and Wasps' coalition crumbles (they don't appear have season tickets on sale for essential income and building a cash flow prediction). And for the heck of it say OW win the LV.

What happens?
•OW get both relegated and an HEC place?
•OW get relegated to be replaced by two Championship clubs?
•OW stay up because they threaten to sue?
or what?

That would be an issue for the RFU not the PRL though, the RFU organise the league and the PRL is just a representative body of the clubs. The PRL don't get to organise the league structure or the LV Cup. I think both would be handled very differently if they did.

The Celtic unions probably see more of the money than the English clubs.

They do, hence the Anglo-French alliance in these negociations.

Sadly this is the case and a dark day for rugby when countries are using cash to bully others like this.

I'm not sure it's using cash to bully. The Rabo Unions have a good deal and have used their votes to stop any level of negociation taking place. You could argue that the Rabo Unions have joined up in order to try and bully the English and French into maintaining the current contract.

This has been posted previously and I'll bring it up again.
http://origin.irishrugby.ie/save/the_facts.php

"Thus, although the Irish TV market contributes only €5 million pa to the central pot (c.€3m to the Six Nations pot and c.€2 million to the ERC pot), the other TV markets contribute much more, and the IRFU therefore receives €16 million each year from the central pot (c.€11m from Six Nations and c.€5m from ERC). This constitutes about 24% of the IRFU's total annual turnover."

HERSH wrote:England and France hold all the cards IMO.

Money talks and all that....

Doesn't win you many HEC's though, does it old bean... only good players do that...

You don't need good players. You need better players. They may still be Poopie but as long as they're better than everyone else.

Bit of a damning statement on European rugby don't you think?

Leinster have lost their first game of the Rabo for the last five seasons in a row. The first game in the HCup pool stages is also where they are most vunerable with a draw and a loss in recent years.

[quote="formerly known as Sam"]

This has been posted previously and I'll bring it up again.
http://origin.irishrugby.ie/save/the_facts.php

"Thus, although the Irish TV market contributes only €5 million pa to the central pot (c.€3m to the Six Nations pot and c.€2 million to the ERC pot), the other TV markets contribute much more, and the IRFU therefore receives €16 million each year from the central pot (c.€11m from Six Nations and c.€5m from ERC). This constitutes about 24% of the IRFU's total annual turnover."

And what about what Irish fans have contributed ticket wise - most english & french clubs love to get Munster because they know they will make a packet on ticket sales because they are good at travelling. First thing they do is move that game to a bigger stadium. That benefits the greedy clubs immediately rather than the Unions.

Edit: I bet you'd struggle to fill the Millenium Stadium in a Stade v Toulouse final. The TV cameras would have empty stadiums to focus on. And lets face it, Toulouse playing Exeter isn't going to be as attractive as Toulouse v Leinster for the neutral. Considering the Irish audience contributes so little, its amazing that you will generally find that the Irish teams get the prime viewership time for games.

I bet you'd struggle to fill the Millenium Stadium in a Stade v Toulouse final

Advantage of an Anglo-French cup, they'd just move it to Paris and then they'd be no problem .

Sine no one wants the HEC to end, especially not us fans. It's great entertainment but if the French and English clubs think they are getting a raw deal and the Rabo Unions just flat out refuse to negociate anything on the current contracts then what other option is there for the English and French clubs? They have to suck it up or threaten to walk away.

French and English clubs are bluffing.

Im not sure they are bluffing Guns.

France doesnt really care about the ERC. If it went belly up and there was only Top 14 rugby I dont think they would care all that much apart from maybe Toulouse and Clermont.

The English have done it before so whats to stop them doing it again.

Most of the TV audience for Super Rugby is in South Africa. Does that mean the South Africans teams themselves bring more to the competition than the Kiwi ones? No I don't think so. They both enter their teams and they both give a lot to the competition and they both benefit from the competition. Teams should be financially rewarded for what they do on the field in a cross border competition. Not financially rewarded for happening to come from a country where there are more people and therefore more televisions.

Do people think that Exeter should get far more money than Leinster, because they are located in a country with far more televisions than Leinster are? Even if more people across Britain, Ireland and the continent actually watch the Leinster games than the Exeter ones? It's nonsense. Financially punishing Cardiff Blues for having the temerity to come from a country with a low population is just stupid. We should get away from that silly argument.

GunsGerms wrote:French and English clubs are bluffing.

Maybe. Maybe they've looked at the chips on the table.

Just don't blink is my advice to both sides.

It's a big (but not 'all-in') raise by the Franglos against (basically) Ireland.

Why don't the English and French allocate their teams their erc places based on performance in the previous erc competitions instead of domestic league placing? The 2 worst performing English HC teams drop to the Amlin. The 2 best Amlin teams goes up to the HC. It would shift emphasis more on the erc comps than on the league in England and France. Just like the PRO12.

Another thing that could level the playing field across all the nations is that erc seedings could be based on league performance the year before. So Edinburgh would find themselves as a bottom seed in the HC after their poor performance in the league. It would be a deterant to ignoring the league like Edinburgh did. In the long run it would be good if the Scots and Italians could launch a 3rd or 4th region. So they really couldn't do what Edinburgh did last year without risking dropping to the Amlin. And nobody would then have automatic HC spots. These are a few suggestions that I think could bring everyone's priorities more into line. But not banish any nation from top level cross border competition. Which would have a negative effect on 6 Nations too by the way. A point that doesn't seem to be discussed here.

On the money issue, I think every individual team should get an equal share of the pot, not each union. This would mean a bit more money for English and French teams and a bit less for PRO12 teams. The PRO12 sides could maybe lean on their unions for a bit more to make it up. But that would be the end of the money debate. The Franglo's could never ask for a bigger share because every team gets exactly the same amount. Plus a bit more if you perform well in the competition.

What do ye think lads? I think some of those idea's have some merit.

Portnoy wrote:

It's a big (but not 'all-in') raise by the Franglos against (basically) Ireland.

Why do you say that Portnoy? Do you mean Ireland are most vehemently against the changes? Or do you mean Ireland have the most chips to bargain with?

I would have thought Ireland has the least to fear from the proposals. Leinster, Ulster and Munster would be fine. It's Scottish and Italian's that would be most under threat. And the Welsh and Irish are backing them up.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

I bet you'd struggle to fill the Millenium Stadium in a Stade v Toulouse final

Advantage of an Anglo-French cup, they'd just move it to Paris and then they'd be no problem .
.

An anglo-french cup would be either in London or Paris. I'd can't see the French Filling twickers if it was an all-French final or are you suggesting that the RFU would shift it to france at short notice to accommodate the French fans

I agree Feckless Rogue - and you've just summed up why the French and English are being so stupid.

They think Ireland is going to lose out from these negotiations when actually we are in the strongest position in the Rabo and it is the weaker nations (Italy and Scotland) who are going to lose out.

Every English fan I talk to about this thinks that Ireland's finances or position in the HC is whats at stake here - they are badly wrong.

Feckless Rogue it's a little unfair to compare Exeter to Leinster.

Surely it should be like for like? Put the Irish and English sides that have the highest average attendances?

Leinster vs Leicester

Munster vs Saints

Ulster vs Quins

Connacht vs Exeter

Exeter have very good attendances. They average around the 10k mark.

Artful_Dodger wrote:I agree Feckless Rogue - and you've just summed up why the French and English are being so stupid.

They think Ireland is going to lose out from these negotiations when actually we are in the strongest position in the Rabo and it is the weaker nations (Italy and Scotland) who are going to lose out.

Every English fan I talk to about this thinks that Ireland finances or position in the HC is what at stake here - they are badly wrong.

Dodge, however I'm not at all sure that is what the T14 and PRL bodies think? In fact, sadly I'm not sure they care, as long as their slice of the pie is upped

Feckless Rogue wrote:

Portnoy wrote:

It's a big (but not 'all-in') raise by the Franglos against (basically) Ireland.

Why do you say that Portnoy? Do you mean Ireland are most vehemently against the changes? Or do you mean Ireland have the most chips to bargain with?

I would have thought Ireland has the least to fear from the proposals. Leinster, Ulster and Munster would be fine. It's Scottish and Italian's that would be most under threat. And the Welsh and Irish are backing them up.

The Irish are the only country in the Rabo in a financial state to withhold the enormous gamble even short-term. The Welsh regions by all accounts are in an enormous mess financially http://www.walesonline.co.uk/rugbynation/rugby-news/2012/07/09/newport-gwent-dragons-latest-welsh-region-to-post-financial-losses-91466-31355110/#ixzz207aPHUHw and isn't the wolf at the door already for the Dragons? http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-18765754 Scotland is as we all know debt-ridden and Italy has already had one side go under.

England has its own lame ducks like Wasps but there is no great threat as half the league are not HEC-dependent.
I can't speak for the FFR and it's clubs though as the google search is not showing very muh that is helpful (in English or French).

[quote="Sin é"]

formerly known as Sam wrote:

This has been posted previously and I'll bring it up again.
http://origin.irishrugby.ie/save/the_facts.php

"Thus, although the Irish TV market contributes only €5 million pa to the central pot (c.€3m to the Six Nations pot and c.€2 million to the ERC pot), the other TV markets contribute much more, and the IRFU therefore receives €16 million each year from the central pot (c.€11m from Six Nations and c.€5m from ERC). This constitutes about 24% of the IRFU's total annual turnover."

And what about what Irish fans have contributed ticket wise - most english & french clubs love to get Munster because they know they will make a packet on ticket sales because they are good at travelling. First thing they do is move that game to a bigger stadium. That benefits the greedy clubs immediately rather than the Unions.

Edit: I bet you'd struggle to fill the Millenium Stadium in a Stade v Toulouse final. The TV cameras would have empty stadiums to focus on. And lets face it, Toulouse playing Exeter isn't going to be as attractive as Toulouse v Leinster for the neutral. Considering the Irish audience contributes so little, its amazing that you will generally find that the Irish teams get the prime viewership time for games.

Excellent point SIN. They seem to forget how much money we generate for them. If money talks, the RABO is screaming.

This is all about French & English Oligarchs trying to wrest power from the supposed minions. Its business. Rugby is fast turning into a Corporate controlled game. I saw it coming years ago. And Corporations care not a jot for the development of the game we love. They want a European Super League - like the soccer CL. Nightmare scenario.

Portnoy loves Corporations, that is why he is supporting the FraAnglo Revolt. If you really love rugby, you should want to make the HC as broad-based(within reason and merit-based by country) as possible, so it can grow.

If the English and French oligarchs have their way, they will kill the HC Goose. The best Club comp on the Planet. They must be stopped at all costs, imo. Give them the sop, but generally tell them to phhook off. And why. Tell them to develop decent squads so they can cope.


As for this threatened English/French alternate Cup, please don't make me laugh. They need us. We need them. A compromise will be reached.

"They need us. We need them. A compromise will be reached."

That's spot on the money Gibbo. Bottom line, everyone in the HC melting pot needs everyone else, although for different reasons. Common ground will be found and an agreement reached which suits all. The notice to withdraw is merely the opening gambit in the bargaining phase. The Heino will remain, although there is likely to be some tinkering with how the finances work and possibly the structure.

Portnoy loves Corporations, that is why he is supporting the FraAnglo Revolt. If you really love rugby, you should want to make the HC as broad-based(within reason and merit-based by country) as possible, so it can grow.

Read through and revise that please Gibbo! All I' have been trying to do is to debunk some claims from both sides.

And if you are really persistent I have always said that a compromise is nigh-on inevitable.

Oh and yeah. I'm a great lover of fat Corporations - known for it!

You stirring bar steward.

Feckless Rogue wrote:Why don't the English and French allocate their teams their erc places based on performance in the previous erc competitions instead of domestic league placing? The 2 worst performing English HC teams drop to the Amlin. The 2 best Amlin teams goes up to the HC. It would shift emphasis more on the erc comps than on the league in England and France. Just like the PRO12.

Because for both the primary competition in the domestic league. The European Cup is a bonus. It's a perfectly valid suggestion but not one either would ever contemplate. Seeding in ERC is a joke anyway and will never make the biggest difference. Depending on how 'easy' your group was and how far you get you're
1) Undercooked : easy group - out early
2) Walk in the park : easy group - do well
3) Battle hardened : hard group - do well
4) knackered : hard group - out early

If you want to win it you must be able to beat anyone anywhere. And does it really matter where you come if you don't win? (other than money).

Gibbo, I really don't think they've forgotten anything. They know the Irish are doing well and are quality teams. They now they travel well, etc. They believe that even if the Irish contribute as much or more than they take out, the others certainly don't. The idea that this is all about selfish clubs is a but short sighted and biased. The Celtic unions have a massively sweet deal that they initially even refused to negotiate on, forcing the termination notice. If anyone's been selfish, power-hungry and greedy it's them. I imagine a compromise will be had but if the celtic/Italian unions refuse to budge at all then the French will pull out.

Gibson I'd actually like one Euro super league to replace all the leagues and erc comps. It could be based on the NFL conference/division model. A Celtic Conference (with 2 lost Italians), a Saxon Conference and a Gallic Conference. It could be done in the same number of games we currently have in a season.

One competition. One level playing field for all. TV money distributed evenly to everyone. May the best team win.

No thanks. I'd rather each side sold the TV rights to their home games separately (with sides happy join together doing that). Don't see the point of a super league either if you're just using the 3 league we have now. What's the benefit?

Feckless Rogue wrote:Gibson I'd actually like one Euro super league to replace all the leagues and erc comps. It could be based on the NFL conference/division model. A Celtic Conference (with 2 lost Italians), a Saxon Conference and a Gallic Conference.

... and a Viking Conference to really let the good Dark Age times of pillaging' and woman stealin' roll!

Of course, as I said a few months ago - the real solution is simply to let a French side win this season (tough for Leinster to achieve that but they must try! ) and next year let an English side win.

It sounds like an oversimplified mishievous Fly joke but trust me, it is really that simple. The organisational difficulties of the French and English and the 'advantages' that the Pro 12 sides have is simply a disguised plea to let them win a few HCs to pacify their fans and sponsors.

I say let's do it. Let's allow one of them to win this season and next season - better that than them trying to dictate how other leagues and other countries run their internal HC affairs. That's the bit that continually pizzez me off.

What's the benefit?

Well cross border competition is obviously a benefit to all 6 nations in terms of development. A super League would just streamline the season into one competition, rather than the mash up we have now. There would be no competing priorities or unfair advantages. The differing setups and competing priorities is obviously causing problems. Just one competition.

Secretfly, the Vikings just aren't hard enough anymore. They stopped the raping and pillaging and started smoking joints, handing out generous social welfare and exporting Lego. What the hell happened to them?

But what you seem to be suggesting is restructuring the season (should be done anyway) and the making the RABO qualify by league instead of by country (if it's considered one conference) . . . How is that different from having the HEC but changing the RABO qualification for the HEC to what the French wanted? Why would having 'one' competition benefit anyone? You're surely not suggesting ALL the TV money is shared are you? You guys want your mitts on our domestic money as well as that for Europe?

Listen lads, I will say this only once, ja? Stop with de phhokin internal-dialogue already.

Bottom-line is, dont phhok with the Heino. Its grand the way it is. Its what makes every true rugby fan wet their knickers(be honest). Its far too big to be feiced with now. Its momentum has too much force.

Its not the Paddy's, The Brits or de Frogs in control here. Its the ERC. And their sponsors. They control the contracts. They lay down the rules. They hold the cards. And its' members, all have to agree, to amend the rules amicably. Like financially.

Just a thought.

Ife the English and French clubs don't want to play then the ERC control nothing.

Dave.
Man. Think about what you are saying. Think.

Then get back to me.

The HEC only exists because the English and French clubs are happy to participate. This is necessary but not sufficient for the compeition to continue, and not as far as I can see controversial.

If the English and French sides wiithdraw in a few weeks the ERC control nothing. Indeed the organisation will probably cease to exist.

Ah fair enough man.
Respect.
Is that good acid though?

Gibson wrote:Bottom-line is, dont phhok with the Heino. Its grand the way it is. Its what makes every true rugby fan wet their knickers(be honest). Its far too big to be feiced with now. Its momentum has too much force.

Oh, so because I prefer the English league I'm not a true rugby fan? And because most (if not all) French club followers prefer the T14 they're not true rugby fans? Stop projecting.

Gibson wrote:Its not the Paddy's, The Brits or de Frogs in control here. Its the ERC. And their sponsors. They control the contracts. They lay down the rules. They hold the cards. And its' members, all have to agree, to amend the rules amicably. Like financially.

The 6 unions have equal shares. The RABO unions control the ERC in the same way the lower/middle clubs control the English premiership. And if the sponsors control the ERC then the clubs truly do have a good position as they have the population base.

I've always preferred the Jeff to the HEC (I used to like the HEC when I had no access to the premiership, but I preferred the Anglo-Welsh even then). All the Poopie has made me realize I really don't care if the HEC stays or goes.

Ah well, sure there's no accounting for taste. Some people prefer ugly birds. Others think One direction are better than the Beatles.

I wouldn't go as far as saying the RABO and HEC are 'ugly birds' or 'One Direction' (well maybe the RABO).

Don't get me wrong. I'm not a premiership hater. I actually watch it. I like all the old rivalry and the history of it etc.
But it can me an unimaginative stodgefest sometimes. With loads of guys just lining up to try and bosh through each other.

And the dropgoalfest that the Top 14 has become is tragic too with all their proud history and reputation for flair etc.

In terms of intensity and the quality of rugby on show, and also the clash of styles between the 6 Nations participating, you just can't top the Heino.

I would say that if I was a Connacht fan just as readily as a Leinster one.

There is nothing at all wrong with you preferring the Premiership, I can totally understand you preferring it to the Rabo as you support English teams rather than any others. I'm sure I would prefer it to the Rabo if I was an English Rugby fan supporting one of their teams.

I would just find it baffling that anyone could prefer their domestic league to the HC. I'm sure there are exactly ZERO rugby fans from outside the 6N that would prefer Rabo/AP/Top 14 to the HC.

Exeter have very good attendances. They average around the 10k mark.

They are also expanding their stadium to keep up with demand.

If the English and French oligarchs have their way, they will kill the HC Goose. The best Club comp on the Planet.

Or improve the overall European competitions. Depends entirely on whether you believe the HEC is the only European Competition and whether you think that other European countries outside of the 6N countries should be targeted for improvement. Currently the Rabo nations seem to have the view of it works for us so sod the rest. There will be no third tier and no improved Amlin competition whilst they continue to be in control.

Of course I can see why the RABO fans like the HC in its current format as a high proportion of their teams participate, but rememember any one year 50% of the AngloFrench teams to not take part, and most of them are too immersed in their own sides to give a damn about any of the RABO teams - you might consider this as tribalism and near heresey, but for some the HC is something that happens to somebody else a long way away, so if it changes - fair enough, if it doesn't - no big deal.

Suffice it to say the Heino is the Holy Grail of all the top sides in Europe.
Clermont want it bad. Toulouse always have done. Same with Leinster & Munster. Ospreys and Blues would feel the same way. As do Ulster now. Edinburgh sacrificed their PRO12 campaign for it. Tigers, Sarries, Quins & Saints - same deal. Bath's head Oligarch has stated he wants to make them a European Super Power.

Where does that leave us?

Going round in circles again Gibbo?

Gibson wrote:Suffice it to say the Heino is the Holy Grail of all the top sides in Europe.
Clermont want it bad. Toulouse always have done. Same with Leinster & Munster. Ospreys and Blues would feel the same way. As do Ulster now. Edinburgh sacrificed their PRO12 campaign for it. Tigers, Sarries, Quins & Saints - same deal. Bath's head Oligarch has stated he wants to make them a European Super Power.

Where does that leave us?

All clubs want to win all competitions. Even if an English club heavily prioritize the the HEC they still have to come 5th in the league to guarantee a spot (due to LV). The last team to really prioritize the HEC was Saints in 2007 and they were relegated.

The Jeff is the bread and butter. HEC is a bonus. Amlin is a distraction. I understand why it's different for the PRO12 sides because their league is the 'One direction' to the Jeff 'Beatles' as Jenifer McLadyboy nicely put it.

Jenifer McLadyboy, the 'quality' of any competition is mostly driven by personal bias. I've been so bored during PRO12 games I've let the wife turn over to the shopping channel. If used to record every HEC game when I first got Sky+. But I always ended up deleting most of them, often after watching part of the game. Reduced it down to just the English games then dropped sky completely when ESPN started covering the Jeff.

I find the reffing really up and down, probably due to the refs being from different unions. In the premiership the RFU control the refs and they tend to have more consistent interpretations (I know fans of specific clubs complain but that's generally after a loss). Funnily enough people are starting to talk about the AI and I find myself more interested in how Argentina will do after the 4N and I'm mostly concerned with how the England call ups with disrupt the Jeff.

I think I'd enjoy the HEC more if it was a much smaller competition played after the leagues have been done. At the moment it's too big to be interested in and is just a distraction through the season.

Some distraction. Id rather watch it than the RWC, 6-N and all the leagues put together. Many people feel the same way. Its live attendances viewing figures are massive. Its the best rugby out there imo.

I think that any European side that says it doesn't covet it, is in denial. Or backward-thinking.

red_stag wrote:Im not sure they are bluffing Guns.

France doesnt really care about the ERC. If it went belly up and there was only Top 14 rugby I dont think they would care all that much apart from maybe Toulouse and Clermont.

The English have done it before so whats to stop them doing it again.

The Hcup is a much bigger animal now than it was when the English clubs last pulled out in '99 I think it was. Les sulk do care about the ERC they just care about the Top14 more.

Gibson wrote:Ah fair enough man.
Respect.
Is that good acid though?

So I can only conclude you think someone can force the English and French sides to participate? If so, who? The English and French Unions certainly can't do it. If the English and French clubs aren't happy then the HEC (and the Amlin) will cease to be. And then so will the ERC as they will serve no purpose.

Serge won't let France leave the Heineken Cup without Biarritz winning it at least once.

The ERU needs to have a look at how they distribute the funds that they make from the HCup. Clubs might not want to leave it if it didn't actually cost them money to participate in it (though I'm sure there are plenty of clubs in both leagues would love if the likes of Leicester & Saracens etc concentrated on the HCup).

Dave - I think the ERC is just made up of representatives/shareholders of all the different RUs.

HammerofThunor wrote:

Gibson wrote:Bottom-line is, dont phhok with the Heino. Its grand the way it is. Its what makes every true rugby fan wet their knickers(be honest). Its far too big to be feiced with now. Its momentum has too much force.

Oh, so because I prefer the English league I'm not a true rugby fan? And because most (if not all) French club followers prefer the T14 they're not true rugby fans? Stop projecting.

Gibson wrote:Its not the Paddy's, The Brits or de Frogs in control here. Its the ERC. And their sponsors. They control the contracts. They lay down the rules. They hold the cards. And its' members, all have to agree, to amend the rules amicably. Like financially.

The 6 unions have equal shares. The RABO unions control the ERC in the same way the lower/middle clubs control the English premiership. And if the sponsors control the ERC then the clubs truly do have a good position as they have the population base.

I've always preferred the Jeff to the HEC (I used to like the HEC when I had no access to the premiership, but I preferred the Anglo-Welsh even then). All the Poopie has made me realize I really don't care if the HEC stays or goes.

You preferred the Anglo-Welsh to the Heineken? - either you are on the wum or you simply know absolutely nothing about rugby mate.