Irish Independent on Premiership and Heineken Cup

First topic message reminder :

This was posted on the Chiefs board desperate for bigger slice of the pie and the following extract from it.

"I note that the Exeter Chiefs, who won 12 of their games in the Aviva Premiership and finished fifth, which apparently entitles them on merit to come to Dublin to face Leinster on Saturday, October 13 in the first match in Pool 5. The only thing that is standing between Exeter and a rapid-eye-movement nightmare of a thrashing is that Leinster might not be fully up to speed or indeed battle-hardened; certainly their top-tier players will not be fully up to pace. If Leinster had left their contingent in New Zealand for the whole summer playing the All Blacks three times a week and went home in an air ambulance to face Exeter, they would still put 50 points on them. Whichever way you look at it, it's not a level playing field. Exeter have qualified by right, but they are not good enough to be in this competition."

hmmm couldn't find the emoticon to go with this but maybe you can suggest one

Are you really pulling the old "you know nothing about rugby" card to someone you disagree with? Shame on you.

The ERC is made up of the 6 unions. I know the RFU have one board member and the PRL have another. The WRU have one and so do RRW. I think IRFU have 2, I'd presume the Scots and Italians have the same number as I'm pretty sure the Italians have a6th share now.

To be honest I think some English fans are put off by their lack of success and the fact that the Irish and sometimes French keep winning it. I think a small bit of all this is "take the ball and go home" syndrome. I really do.

Because the Heineken Cup is the best rugby competition in Europe by a million miles. The entertainment value of the group stage is brilliant. The teams are just less familiar with each other and far less able to just shut the opposition down. The quality of the knockout rounds is incredibly high. Clement Poitrenaud said that the 2011 semi final with Leinster and Toulouse was the fastest paced game he'd ever played outside of a RWC semi final.

1. ERC Board of Directors

Independent Chairman: Jean-Pierre Lux
England: Rob Andrew (RFU), Peter Wheeler (Premiership Rugby)
France: Michel Palmié (FFR), René Bouscatel (LNR)
Ireland: Philip Browne (IRFU), Peter Boyle (IRFU)
Italy: Fabrizio Gaetaniello (FIR), Orazio Arancio (FIR)
Scotland: Ian McLauchlan (SRU), Mark Dodson (SRU)
Wales: Roger Lewis (WRU), Stuart Gallacher (RRW)

each country/union has 2 seats.

I wasn't particularly interested in 2007 when there were 3 English teams in the semi's and 2 in the final (I didn't watch many of the games and none of the knockouts). I did however catch the premiership final and the the LV final. Enjoying both games.

Entertainment value is subjective. I assume you prefer the S15 over everything else, right? Best players in the world, etc? I get very bored of it personally because I just don't care. Then again I don't like the Lions either.

First game I ever saw was Leicester v Stade final in 2001. It's what got me into rugby. But I just don't have as much interest in it. I get entertainment from things I'm interested not; nothing to do with 'quality'.

At the moment my interest goes

Premiership (100% English)
LV (75% English)
HEC (<25% English)

If English teams got through to the finals I'd probably be more interested because there would be more English involvement (however I wasn't in 2007).

You not agree or understand or even believe me. That really doesn't bother me.

Feckless Rogue wrote:I think a small bit of all this is "take the ball and go home" syndrome. I really do.

Bingo.

[quote="Feckless Rogue"]To be honest I think some English fans are put off by their lack of success and the fact that the Irish and sometimes French keep winning it.quote]

Most English fans are put off because their clubs are not competing in HC, and those that follow teams in the Amlin see what a waste that competition is compared to what it could be with only a small amount of tweaking. I'm more than slightly mystified by the resistance to making the HC more elite, whilst strengthening the Amlin into a healthy secondary competition, and the introduction of a broad-based development tertiary competition.

Because the Celtic unions are quids in. They want the money and don't want to let it go.

SecretFly wrote:

Feckless Rogue wrote:Gibson I'd actually like one Euro super league to replace all the leagues and erc comps. It could be based on the NFL conference/division model. A Celtic Conference (with 2 lost Italians), a Saxon Conference and a Gallic Conference.

... and a Viking Conference to really let the good Dark Age times of pillaging' and woman stealin' roll!

Of course, as I said a few months ago - the real solution is simply to let a French side win this season (tough for Leinster to achieve that but they must try! ) and next year let an English side win.

It sounds like an oversimplified mishievous Fly joke but trust me, it is really that simple. The organisational difficulties of the French and English and the 'advantages' that the Pro 12 sides have is simply a disguised plea to let them win a few HCs to pacify their fans and sponsors.

I say let's do it. Let's allow one of them to win this season and next season - better that than them trying to dictate how other leagues and other countries run their internal HC affairs. That's the bit that continually pizzez me off.

You really are a tart, you know that Fly? Man that was sweet. How far have we come to cause this? I love it.
★★★ and counting. Are you watching FraAnglos? Come and take it off us.

On us way Guv.

Gibson wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

Feckless Rogue wrote:Gibson I'd actually like one Euro super league to replace all the leagues and erc comps. It could be based on the NFL conference/division model. A Celtic Conference (with 2 lost Italians), a Saxon Conference and a Gallic Conference.

... and a Viking Conference to really let the good Dark Age times of pillaging' and woman stealin' roll!

Of course, as I said a few months ago - the real solution is simply to let a French side win this season (tough for Leinster to achieve that but they must try! ) and next year let an English side win.

It sounds like an oversimplified mishievous Fly joke but trust me, it is really that simple. The organisational difficulties of the French and English and the 'advantages' that the Pro 12 sides have is simply a disguised plea to let them win a few HCs to pacify their fans and sponsors.

I say let's do it. Let's allow one of them to win this season and next season - better that than them trying to dictate how other leagues and other countries run their internal HC affairs. That's the bit that continually pizzez me off.

You really are a tart, you know that Fly? Man that was sweet. How far have we come to cause this? I love it.
★★★ and counting. Are you watching FraAnglos? Come and take it off us.

Shuffling the deckchairs,, unless conferences include Iberian, East European and Mid-European teams. The very definition of stagnation.

7's rugby has a meritocratic structure in place now, European leading to IRB which is the template for International rugby devoid of traditional and vested interests. Club and International XVs rugby need to offer the same path to success, or it risks stagnation.

Portnoy me aul mucker,
Are you an ASM fan perchance? Chef is. I'm going down there, so he can abuse me again. They are they only ones worthy right now. And they are in our group. I hope, for rugby's sake, we meet them in Dublin, in the Final. Wouldn't be too crushed if they won it either. They have the best fans in the World and the club to boot. I'd sing and dance with them, like I have done a few times now.

That defines the Heino for me.

Dubbelyew L Overate wrote:

Gibson wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

Feckless Rogue wrote:Gibson I'd actually like one Euro super league to replace all the leagues and erc comps. It could be based on the NFL conference/division model. A Celtic Conference (with 2 lost Italians), a Saxon Conference and a Gallic Conference.

... and a Viking Conference to really let the good Dark Age times of pillaging' and woman stealin' roll!

Of course, as I said a few months ago - the real solution is simply to let a French side win this season (tough for Leinster to achieve that but they must try! ) and next year let an English side win.

It sounds like an oversimplified mishievous Fly joke but trust me, it is really that simple. The organisational difficulties of the French and English and the 'advantages' that the Pro 12 sides have is simply a disguised plea to let them win a few HCs to pacify their fans and sponsors.

I say let's do it. Let's allow one of them to win this season and next season - better that than them trying to dictate how other leagues and other countries run their internal HC affairs. That's the bit that continually pizzez me off.

You really are a tart, you know that Fly? Man that was sweet. How far have we come to cause this? I love it.
★★★ and counting. Are you watching FraAnglos? Come and take it off us.

Shuffling the deckchairs,, unless conferences include Iberian, East European and Mid-European teams. The very definition of stagnation.

7's rugby has a meritocratic structure in place now, European leading to IRB which is the template for International rugby devoid of traditional and vested interests. Club and International XVs rugby need to offer the same path to success, or it risks stagnation.

Also true. The Amlin should be opened up for said countries. Im all for positive change, for the game as a whole. Just concerned about the exclusivity the Oligarchs want.

Gibson wrote:Portnoy me aul mucker,
Are you an ASM fan perchance? Chef is. I'm going down there, so he can abuse me again. They are they only ones worthy right now. And they are in our group. I hope, for rugby's sake, we meet them in Dublin, in the Final. Wouldn't be too crushed if they won it either. They have the best fans in the World and the club to boot. I'd sing and dance with them, like I have done a few times now.

That defines the Heino for me.

Enjoy mate!

Leaves me to enjoy the Jeff and the 6Ns and giggling up me sleeve for the afters! :TigerAle:

Gibson wrote:

Dubbelyew L Overate wrote:

Gibson wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

Feckless Rogue wrote:Gibson I'd actually like one Euro super league to replace all the leagues and erc comps. It could be based on the NFL conference/division model. A Celtic Conference (with 2 lost Italians), a Saxon Conference and a Gallic Conference.

... and a Viking Conference to really let the good Dark Age times of pillaging' and woman stealin' roll!

Of course, as I said a few months ago - the real solution is simply to let a French side win this season (tough for Leinster to achieve that but they must try! ) and next year let an English side win.

It sounds like an oversimplified mishievous Fly joke but trust me, it is really that simple. The organisational difficulties of the French and English and the 'advantages' that the Pro 12 sides have is simply a disguised plea to let them win a few HCs to pacify their fans and sponsors.

I say let's do it. Let's allow one of them to win this season and next season - better that than them trying to dictate how other leagues and other countries run their internal HC affairs. That's the bit that continually pizzez me off.

You really are a tart, you know that Fly? Man that was sweet. How far have we come to cause this? I love it.
★★★ and counting. Are you watching FraAnglos? Come and take it off us.

Shuffling the deckchairs,, unless conferences include Iberian, East European and Mid-European teams. The very definition of stagnation.

7's rugby has a meritocratic structure in place now, European leading to IRB which is the template for International rugby devoid of traditional and vested interests. Club and International XVs rugby need to offer the same path to success, or it risks stagnation.

Also true. The Amlin should be opened up for said countries. Im all for positive change, for the game as a whole. Just concerned about the exclusivity the Oligarchs want.

No,the Amlin should be purged of the makeweights, and become a broader based competition including not only the dross of english and french leagues, but more of those of the Rsbo. It should be incentivised too, perhaps with HC qulification for the top 4 or 8.

The proposed 3rd tier competition should include the Georgians, Russians, etc in addition to the Spanish, Romanians and Italian 2nd tier, but, crucially, with potential with promotion to the Amlin, and eventually, the HC.

HammerofThunor wrote:
The Jeff is the bread and butter. HEC is a bonus. Amlin is a distraction. I understand why it's different for the PRO12 sides because their league is the 'One direction' to the Jeff 'Beatles' as Jenifer McLadyboy nicely put it.

As you well know I was equating the HC with the Beatles and the Jeff was One direction. If you want to continue the metaphor the LV cup is probably "Sing along with Barney and Friends".

HammerofThunor wrote:
Jenifer McLadyboy, the 'quality' of any competition is mostly driven by personal bias.

You seem to be only able to watch a competition if "your" team is in it. That's fine. We are all different. Some of us like to watch "good" (subjective. I Know) Rugby as a neutral. If Leinster were "banned" from the HC for 10 years I would still watch it.

HammerofThunor wrote:
Entertainment value is subjective. I assume you prefer the S15 over everything else, right? Best players in the world, etc? I get very bored of it personally because I just don't care. Then again I don't like the Lions either.

Great example. I love watching the S15 and would always keep up with it and watch a game a week plus knockouts. However, I know plenty of "Rugby people" who hate it and think it is "Rugby league with 15 men" (Possibly because the last time they watched it they had the experimental elvs? I dunno)

The fact that I prefer the HC to the S15 in my opinion is because the HC is a better comp. I like the structure of it. With the Pools and then 3 x knockout rounds rather than the S15 with a conference league and then 2 x knockout rounds.

SH Rugby fans would probably say it is my NH bias and they could be right.

I would watch the Currie cup and the Itm cup infrequently, the odd game and maybe the semi and final. They would compare to the Rabo/Jeff/Top14 of the SH.

It is unsurprising that you dislike the Rabo as you seem to have little interest in any comp that you do not have a stake in. Which is fine. As I said we are all different.

When I hear of people preferring the Jeff OR Rabo to the HC, it feels a bit like when my kids try to convince me that One direction are better than the Beatles. But that's OK too. It takes all sorts and if we were all the same it would be a boring world, and there would definitely be no Rugby forums.

HERSH wrote:

I bet Hammer is devastated that the Dragons v Zebre game is not televised.

Man's missing a treat there Jen. A new era for Zebre. Pride of the PRO12.

I used to like watching rugby, regardless of what it was. Used to watch most televised Celtic League rugby (2005-2007). I enjoyed it. Been to see Ospreys at the Liberty. Supported Wales as 'second team' in the 6 nations.

2 years of being told England and English teams are all Poopie by ALL of my work colleagues have hardened me a little. Every Scottish person I've met have wanted England to lose at everything. To be honest more than happy to Flip off and settle with an all English competition.

I've only really know 2 Irish guys, worked with a guy from Limmerick and his mate from Dublin. Really nice guys, got on well with them, they couldn't give Poopie about England or English teams. And I have no issues with Ireland and Irish teams. If there was an English/Irish competition I'd watch. If there was an England and Ireland Lions I'd support them.

Finally I only watch rugby where there is an emotional involvement. Watching for analytic reasons got me too frustrated with the variations in ref interpretations. I'm only allowed to watch around 3 games a weekend as the wife gets peed off. And I don't actually have a 'team'. The games I tend to watch are for those clubs that are developing young English players.

HammerofThunor wrote:I used to like watching rugby, regardless of what it was. Used to watch most televised Celtic League rugby (2005-2007). I enjoyed it. Been to see Ospreys at the Liberty. Supported Wales as 'second team' in the 6 nations.

2 years of being told England and English teams are all Poopie by ALL of my work colleagues have hardened me a little. Every Scottish person I've met have wanted England to lose at everything. To be honest more than happy to Flip off and settle with an all English competition.

I've only really know 2 Irish guys, worked with a guy from Limmerick and his mate from Dublin. Really nice guys, got on well with them, they couldn't give Poopie about England or English teams. And I have no issues with Ireland and Irish teams. If there was an English/Irish competition I'd watch. If there was an England and Ireland Lions I'd support them.

Finally I only watch rugby where there is an emotional involvement. Watching for analytic reasons got me too frustrated with the variations in ref interpretations. I'm only allowed to watch around 3 games a weekend as the wife gets peed off. And I don't actually have a 'team'. The games I tend to watch are for those clubs that are developing young English players.

Thats totally understandable Thunor. Coming from that historical angle. I can see where you are coming from. Me? I watch everything that moves on a rugby field. I love it all. More so the NH than the SH. Dont watch S15. But Im watching the Championship with real interest. Have a gra for Argentina. I love the Jeff too.

Really like watching Quins & LI (my Jeff team) and have huge respect for Tigers, Sarries, Bath & Saints. Met all their fans on tour see. I also love watching Leinster kids play. Love to see the future coming through. TOP14 can be a bore-fest at times. Always watch when ASM and Toulouse play though. And Agen are my TOP14 team, because I was there when they were promoted a few seasons back. What a day! Incredible fans.

But, The Heino eclipses it all for me. No comp comes even near, for excitement, level of play, colour, fans, expectancy imo.

P.S. I really think you should get off the rugby fence and hang your colours on a club mast. In the the Jeff primarily and in every NH League. It gives you a greater interest I find. You watch out for them. Start taking it personal. Get pished off when they lose and experience joy when they win. Bring some passion into it.

Thing is, I grew up in Stoke (no rugby whatsoever), and now I live in Hull (2 pro rugby sides but both league). Leicester were the first team I saw play (on tv), my brother lives there and I have gone to games. I like Quins due to their use of the academy. I like Irish for the young guys they have. Same with Sarries and Gloucester. I tried to get into Sale, since they want to be the NW club and I'm from the NW. But they seem to play all their games on Fridays and I can't get back Hull or Stoke after the game (and they have too many foreign players). Instead I used to watch all three televised premierships every week. Now all the premiership games are available on the Jeff website I'm going to watch every single Sale game (except the HEC games no sky). I am hopeful that Diamond will take the club in the right direction. I'm also trying to get back into the Ospreys. I really liked Tandy as a player and hope he does well with them.

I'm actually looking forward to Argentina's performance in the AI more than England's (that might change closer to the day). I really hope the extra time training and benefit of playing experience allows them to perform at their WC levels more frequently.

For all your rugby-watching needs, read your PM, Sale fan.

P.S. Dont tell de missus. Pretend you are doing research.

This is all Thomond's work, I'm just forwarding it btw. He has done a lot of his own research on it. Munster boy saved my life in Le Pays-Bas, Bless im.

Totally agree on Argentina. Its great to see them get the highest level of opposition there is, as just reward for their endeavours, against all the odds. They will grow from it and they deserve it.

P.S. MODS, could ye please get rid of this Yank spell-checker? Its doin me heid in. UKENG. Not AMENG. Thanks.

hey gibbo. spellcheck is a function of your web browser not the forum. yah mad yoke.

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:hey gibbo. spellcheck is a function of your web browser not the forum. yah mad yoke.

I don't tink so Jen. Langauge can be set at forum-level bud.

Gibson wrote:

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:hey gibbo. spellcheck is a function of your web browser not the forum. yah mad yoke.

I don't tink so Jen. Langauge can be set at forum-level bud.

nowt tah do with spellcheck boss. that just translates the forum intah yer favourite tongue.
check yer intahnet settins.

HammerofThunor wrote:Thing is, I grew up in Stoke (no rugby whatsoever),

Stoke have a rugby team. Ask Arsene Wenger!

The Stoke rugby club is in a field just out side my village. I didn't even know it was there until I was about 24.

To be honest I think some English fans are put off by their lack of success and the fact that the Irish and sometimes French keep winning it. I think a small bit of all this is "take the ball and go home" syndrome. I really do

Or this could be a continuation of the complaints levelled in the contract talks back in 2007 or whenever it was. I think the English and the French were talked around into continuing the virtual subsidising because at the time Leinster had not won a HEC, the Scottish Union had financial issues and Welsh rugby was still growing positively. Now the Scots have steadied the ship, the Irish are flourishing and the Welsh failings are all their own fault so the English and French feel more vindicated in their complaints.

I have no problem with no English team winning the competition, Tigers and Saints have both had a bit of bad luck in recent finals but that was up to them on the day.

I think a very minor adjustment is needed. That we enter the best TEN sides from the Pro12 regardless of nationality.

I think Top 6 in the Aviva, Top 6 in the Top 14 and Top 10 in the Pro12 plus additional 2 from the nation of the HC and Amlin winner is a fair but minor adjustment.

France 6-7 places
England 6-7 places
Ireland/Wales- 2-4 places
Scotland/Italy- 0-2 places

England and France still have more places guaranteed than any of the other nations. But of course thats not enough. Right now we have a situation where England and France- one-third of the participating nations- supply 50% of the teams, and they have the nerve to call it unfair.

The idea that a league representing four nations should get an allocation thats the same as a league representing one nation is beyond ludicrous. The Pro12 should clearly have the largest representation.

Exeter

http://www.espnscrum.com/premiership-2012-13/rugby/match/166465.html

Rabo Chumps
http://www.espnscrum.com/rabodirect-pro12-2012-13/rugby/match/166985.html

yknow just saying....

Yeah Seasbiquit, it really shows the strength of the RABO eh? Lower, developing teams, beating the champs. Its getting stronger by the year.
The Jeff had some great rugby today. Wasps v Quins was epic. Respect.

P.S. Thunor's side got a tonking by Chiefs.

Exeter just go from strength to strength. They will have to be watched in the HC too.

I think LWeslsh, as Zebre did, may demonstrate the real depth of both leagues.

But yes, tight competitive hard fought leagues may not be ideal for HC and international aspirations but they are much better to watch and follow. You want to see teams going out and trying, and able to get results against anyone.

Yes, there is a better quality of spoon in the egg and sack races at parent days than there is in that huff'n'puff self-important drivel on the track at the Olympics.

To Drat with that Drinks Sponsored Nonsense that they let them foreign types into!!!

All this league/national qualification deckchair shuffling is bowlocks. Qualification for HC should be by performance in HC and Amlin. Bottom teams in HC pools get relegated to Amlin, best teams in Amlin get promoted with playoffs if necessary to decide who goes down, comes up. That way, Leagues stand or fall on their own merits and if teams are disinterested in european competition, they can amble along in the Amlin (or get demoted to a euro development comp with Spanish, Georgian, Russian etc teams).

Still wondering where the spoon comes into the sack race - mind-boggling.

Dubbelyew L Overate wrote:

Still wondering where the spoon comes into the sack race - mind-boggling.

Just let's put it this way - it ain't the mind that boggles when the spoon enters the sack... or at least that's what I was told by the proponents.

SecretFly wrote:

Dubbelyew L Overate wrote:

Still wondering where the spoon comes into the sack race - mind-boggling.

Just let's put it this way - it ain't the mind that boggles when the spoon enters the sack... or at least that's what I was told by the proponents.

That's just what was boggling my mind - wouldn't want anything but a silver spoon (and warmed to ambient temperature) for my sacks.