Irish Independent on Premiership and Heineken Cup

First topic message reminder :

This was posted on the Chiefs board desperate for bigger slice of the pie and the following extract from it.

"I note that the Exeter Chiefs, who won 12 of their games in the Aviva Premiership and finished fifth, which apparently entitles them on merit to come to Dublin to face Leinster on Saturday, October 13 in the first match in Pool 5. The only thing that is standing between Exeter and a rapid-eye-movement nightmare of a thrashing is that Leinster might not be fully up to speed or indeed battle-hardened; certainly their top-tier players will not be fully up to pace. If Leinster had left their contingent in New Zealand for the whole summer playing the All Blacks three times a week and went home in an air ambulance to face Exeter, they would still put 50 points on them. Whichever way you look at it, it's not a level playing field. Exeter have qualified by right, but they are not good enough to be in this competition."

hmmm couldn't find the emoticon to go with this but maybe you can suggest one

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:

beshocked wrote:Jenifer I don't agree with the whole Celtic sides are fresher argument except possibly for Leinster but they are the best side in Europe so is it really down to being fresher?

Edinburgh piled all their eggs into the HC basket because they could but the likes of London Irish,Toulouse and Racing Metro should have done better.

Of course it's about the money but it's also about 11 out of 12 Pro12 clubs being in the HC too.

It's not exactly a level playing field but there should be more of a focus on beating the other sides in the HC rather than focussing on the Celtic's clubs perceived dominance.

So what you're saying is it's ok to have 10 clubs (not 11) as long as we take our beatings like good little lads, but if we start kicking your ass (and getting an extra team in cause we win the HC) then you're taking your ball and going home?

I would personally lower the Pro12 representation to 8 clubs - 2 Irish,2 Welsh, 1 Italian, 1 Scot, 2 next best sides in the table. 6 French clubs, 6 English clubs. No piggybacking. 11 sides out of a league of 12 getting is a joke. 11/24 of sides in the HC are from the Pro12.

I don't agree with the 7th place English or French side getting into the HC.

beshocked wrote: I would personally lower the Pro12 representation to 8 clubs - 2 Irish,2 Welsh, 1 Italian, 1 Scot, 2 next best sides in the table. 6 French clubs, 6 English clubs. No piggybacking.

I have no problem with that as I have said elsewhere.

Beshocked, why do France get 6 teams but Ireland only get 2?

As far as Europe or indeed any Irish, Welsh, Scottish or Italian fans are concerned there are no "Rabo" teams in Europe just individual countries.

I have no more affinity for Glasgow than Castres or Sale Sharks. They are not Irish.

Its a guarantee of 2 - we could get 4, and would almost certaintly get 3, provided our teams perform.

Class punditry there. Paraphrased as:

Leinster will completely hammer them because Chiefs are sooooooooo bad. But just in case they don't hammer them, here is the list of probable reasons why they won't be full strength.

Fantastic stuff

I could be a journalist no bother! Here we go:

Ulster v Glasgow this Friday night. Ulster will definatly win, but if they don't it will probably be because we dont have a lot of our big names due to injury, and because we have young guys who are inexperienced.

Can somebody print this and give me some cash? Cheers.

As far as Europe or indeed any Irish, Welsh, Scottish or Italian fans are concerned there are no "Rabo" teams in Europe just individual countries

That distinction is what is being challenged in the new negociations. The Rabo teams deem themselves as seperate countries with proud rugby traditions and feel they should be allowed representation as such. The English and French see it as a league that doesn't bring as much financially and is claiming more places than the other two leagues in the competition.

Both arguements have merits and it will be up to the suits to agree a compromise. That said, it looks like the English and French have the upper hand in negociations at the minute.

In that case I reckon we should vote to see England and Wales as the same country due to the LV Cup.

How is the conundrum the disparity of Welsh and Irish performances at international and HEC levels resolved?

The common explanation is that the former has a good coach whilst the latter doesn't.
But I can't fully swallow that whole as it pre-supposes that the regions have been suffering from a string of poor coaches whilst the Provinces (in particular Lunster) have been royally blessed.

Can it be also partially explained that the regions' players are more freely available to them for the hum-drum of the Rabo than their provincial counterparts and therefore over-played?

And in actuality, should Wales really expect and merit, under the current (or any proposed system), parity with Ireland in the HEC?

Portnoy wrote:How is the conundrum the disparity of Welsh and Irish performances at international and HEC levels resolved?

The common explanation is that the former has a good coach whilst the latter doesn't.
But I can't fully swallow that whole as it pre-supposes that the regions have been suffering from a string of poor coaches whilst the Provinces (in particular Lunster) have been royally blessed.

Can it be also partially explained that the regions' players are more freely available to them for the hum-drum of the Rabo than their provincial counterparts and therefore over-played?

And in actuality, should Wales really expect and merit, under the current (or any proposed system), parity with Ireland in the HEC?

I don't see how that's relevant.

In that case I reckon we should vote to see England and Wales as the same country due to the LV Cup.

A one off reserve cup competition is now as important as the Rabo league? That's what you are insinuating.

The LV Cup is a filler competition whilst the internationals are away, the smaller teams sometimes go for a run in it and the bigger teams throw out an academy outfit and see what they can do. Sometimes the bigger teams go through (as in last season) but sometimes the teams who are not that occupied with the internationals and the HEC do better. If the LV came in as a limiting factor to the HEC negociations it would be dropped in as second. Will the Rabo be dropped in a second if it means the Rabo nations have to be recognised as a league rather than individual nations? No, simply because those individual nations cannot support full professional leauges individually.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

In that case I reckon we should vote to see England and Wales as the same country due to the LV Cup.

A one off reserve cup competition is now as important as the Rabo league? That's what you are insinuating.

The LV Cup is a filler competition whilst the internationals are away, the smaller teams sometimes go for a run in it and the bigger teams throw out an academy outfit and see what they can do. Sometimes the bigger teams go through (as in last season) but sometimes the teams who are not that occupied with the internationals and the HEC do better. If the LV came in as a limiting factor to the HEC negociations it would be dropped in as second. Will the Rabo be dropped in a second if it means the Rabo nations have to be recognised as a league rather than individual nations? No, simply because those individual nations cannot support full professional leauges individually.

LV cup does generate a H-cup spot, so its up there with the Almin!

Mickado wrote:

Portnoy wrote:How is the conundrum the disparity of Welsh and Irish performances at international and HEC levels resolved?

The common explanation is that the former has a good coach whilst the latter doesn't.
But I can't fully swallow that whole as it pre-supposes that the regions have been suffering from a string of poor coaches whilst the Provinces (in particular Lunster) have been royally blessed.

Can it be also partially explained that the regions' players are more freely available to them for the hum-drum of the Rabo than their provincial counterparts and therefore over-played?

And in actuality, should Wales really expect and merit, under the current (or any proposed system), parity with Ireland in the HEC?

I don't see how that's relevant.

Because Mick,
Because of the fact that baybe, just maybe, the whole smoke and mirrors argument that the whole argument is being put up by the defenders of the Rabo is as a classic defence of 'whoever is not your friend is your enemy'.

The main construct of the Franglo argument is in essence not an attack on Wales, Scotland and Italy, but on Ireland. As I read it, it's a moan (deserved or not) that the IRFU (rightly or not) rest players and therefore creates a relatively easy league from which to qualify especially as the national allocations make it easy to back off and relax.

I can see both sides. And as I am sure that most people would agree, that some sort of compromise will be agreed. But I'd argue (if you forced me) that the HEC, as the pinnacle of NH club rugby should be competed for by the best teams from Europe's leagues and not by cosy arrangements.

What is "best" Portnoy. What if one year the "best" teams in Europe were:

- 11 France
- 8 'Rabo'
- 5 England

Kingshu wrote:LV cup does generate a H-cup spot, so its up there with the Almin!

No it doesn't. A spot is allocated out of the English pot if an English team win it. No extra spot is generated. The Amlin gives the winner an extra HEC spot.

I think Sam's hit the nail on the head here in that the French and the English to consider the countries involved in the PRO12 as a collective and the unions involved in the PRO12 what to be seen a individual unions.

Portnoy wrote:

Mickado wrote:

Portnoy wrote:How is the conundrum the disparity of Welsh and Irish performances at international and HEC levels resolved?

The common explanation is that the former has a good coach whilst the latter doesn't.
But I can't fully swallow that whole as it pre-supposes that the regions have been suffering from a string of poor coaches whilst the Provinces (in particular Lunster) have been royally blessed.

Can it be also partially explained that the regions' players are more freely available to them for the hum-drum of the Rabo than their provincial counterparts and therefore over-played?

And in actuality, should Wales really expect and merit, under the current (or any proposed system), parity with Ireland in the HEC?

I don't see how that's relevant.

Because Mick,
Because of the fact that baybe, just maybe, the whole smoke and mirrors argument that the whole argument is being put up by the defenders of the Rabo is as a classic defence of 'whoever is not your friend is your enemy'.

The main construct of the Franglo argument is in essence not an attack on Wales, Scotland and Italy, but on Ireland. As I read it, it's a moan (deserved or not) that the IRFU (rightly or not) rest players and therefore creates a relatively easy league from which to qualify especially as the national allocations make it easy to back off and relax.

I can see both sides. And as I am sure that most people would agree, that some sort of compromise will be agreed. But I'd argue (if you forced me) that the HEC, as the pinnacle of NH club rugby should be competed for by the best teams from Europe's leagues and not by cosy arrangements.

How does the IRFU resting players create an easy league to qualify from? And if we rest players then why has an Irish team topped the league (proper) for the last 5 years in a row?

If there were never any Irish internationals in the league and every Irish team lost all of their games, but were still a success in Europe I think there would be a point there, but that’s just not the case.

Hammer,

My problem with that is that the French and English are not trying to make this better for themselves by improving the overall competition structure.

They are trying to force other nations to change rather looking for positive changes to their own systems.

They are saying to the ERC: "We want things to be the same for us but worse for the other nations. We want to reduce the amount of teams that all the others get and we want to make it harder for them to qualify and we also want to try force them to play a certain quality of player in their own private league".

Why are the Irish so arrogant, it's not like they have ever been ranked the No1 team in the world.

They haven't even beaten the All Blacks yet!

I hope the hard working, honest team called Exeter beat that overrated team full of overseas players in Dublin.

HERSH wrote:Why are the Irish so arrogant, it's not like they have ever been ranked the No1 team in the world.

They haven't even beaten the All Blacks yet!

I hope the hard working, honest team called Exeter beat that overrated team full of overseas players in Dublin.

I hope so too, Hersh, except Leinster aren't!

I know but it might stir it up a little bit.

Hersh is still a little sore from the 50 burger his team were served up in the Palindrome.

Hersh, were it an international league I'd agree with you pal. At club level you haven't a foot to stand on pal. <smuggrinemoticon>

Mickado wrote:Hersh is still a little sore from the 50 burger his team were served up in the Palindrome.

So if we do better than Bath's result last season, that'll be south-west bragging rights at SP then?

Thank you Hersh.

Meanwhile - Mick,

How does the IRFU resting players create an easy league to qualify from? And if we rest players then why has an Irish team topped the league (proper) for the last 5 years in a row?

If there were never any Irish internationals in the league and every Irish team lost all of their games, but were still a success in Europe I think there would be a point there, but that’s just not the case.

I didn't say 'easy'. Just relatively so.

And "If there were never any Irish internationals in the league and every Irish team lost all of their games, but were still a success in Europe" . And just how then would they qualify?

I agree that the Provinces dominate the the Rabo, but that if you recall (or have deftly side-stepped) doesn't answer the Welsh/Irish conundrum.

Personally I think it was Edinburgh that peed them off not, the Irish.

Edinburgh beating Toulose, thats out of order, the French didn't like that, then finishing 2nd last in the league and still getting in the H-cup. Well that peed them off even more.

All Edinburghs fault and if we lose H-cup places for next year we all know who to blame.

In a serious note, once the SRU folded the Boarders but kept 2 H-cup places for only two teams, I think thats when this started. If Italy and Scotland's represention was lowered to one team then that may solve it and be fair enough.

Does change the Irish model at all. Agree that I think we will see Pro12 representation to 8 clubs - 2 Irish,2 Welsh, 1 Italian, 1 Scot, 2 next best sides in the table

Why '2 Irish, 2 Welsh'?

Where is the Boarders? Do you mean the Borders, as in the border between England and Scotland.

The Irish provinces are now in a position of strength due to years of good development and what ever changes the English and French ask for will not detract from the strength of the squads.

I think if we're (the Pro12 lot) going to concede places its got to be on an equal basis. For the Pro12, top 2 or top 4 should get auto entry and then each country should have 1 representative from the remaining teams. If there was 2 Welsh , 2 Irish, 1 Scot and 1 Italian - what happens if SRU or the Italians decide to setup two new teams? That'll mean they both need an extra place each?

I've list my two options below;

Option A) Reduced to 16 team competition - the best of the best in the NH. Top 4 from the French and English leagues. The Pro 12 finalists then the highest placed teams from each country. Due to Leinster winning the HEC last year that would give a place for Ulster.

4 Prem (Quins, Leicester, Saracens, Saints)
4 Top14 (Toulouse, Racing Métro, Castres, Clermont)
2 Pro12 Finalists (Ospreys & Leinster)
1 Sc (Glasgow)
1 Ir (Munster)
1 W (Scarlets)
1 It (Treviso)
1 HEC winner (Ulster)
1 Amlin winner (Biarritz)

16 teams

Option B) 24 team competition. Top 7 from the French and English leagues. The Pro 12 play off teams then the top teams from each country. Due to Leinster winning the HEC last year that would give a place for Connacht.

7 Prem (Quins, Leicester, Saracens, Saints, Exeter Chiefs, Sale Sharks, London Irish)
7 Top14 (Toulouse, Clermont, Toulon, Castres, Montpellier, Racing Métro, Stade Français)
4 Pro12 Play offs (Glasgow, Munster, Ospreys & Leinster)
1 Sc (Edinburgh)
1 Ir (Ulster)
1 W (Scarlets)
1It (Treviso)
1 HEC winner (Connacht)
1 Amlin winner (Biarritz)

24 teams

LV cup does generate a H-cup spot, so its up there with the Almin!

Something else that needs changing from the old regime.

I think if we're (the Pro12 lot) going to concede places its got to be on an equal basis. For the Pro12, top 2 or top 4 should get auto entry and then each country should have 1 representative from the remaining teams

With the Anglo-French cup all but agreed as a contingency then I'm not sure the Rabo Unions have a leg to stand on anymore, they could threaten to sabotage the 6N but that would be the emptiest of empty threats.

Though your arguement is back to comparing countries rather than comparing leagues. The Anglo-French alliance are pushing for each league to be given 6 places with a further two for the winner of the HEC and the Amlin. The current demands are that the top 6 from the Rabo go through, I think that is likely to be changed by the Rabo nations to the top team from each nation plus the next two best finishers in the league. The rest will be given Amlin places. That's a harsh cull but I can't see where the Rabo nations bargaining chips are going to come from.

cp

7 Prem (Quins, Leicester, Saracens, Saints, Exeter Chiefs, Sale Sharks, London Irish)
7 Top14 (Toulouse, Clermont, Toulon, Castres, Montpellier, Racing Métro, Stade Français)
4 Pro12 Play offs (Glasgow, Munster, Ospreys & Leinster)
1 Sc (Edinburgh)
1 Ir (Ulster)
1 W (Scarlets)
1It (Treviso)
1 HEC winner (Connacht)
1 Amlin winner (Biarritz)

So you mean 7 Franglos and 8 Rabos'
That the HEC 'winner' (as you put it) never made it on any of the above fantastical criterion would be Connacht rather than Leinster 'A' (see OP).
Similarly the Amlin winner automatically qualifies.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

LV cup does generate a H-cup spot, so its up there with the Almin!

Something else that needs changing from the old regime.

I think if we're (the Pro12 lot) going to concede places its got to be on an equal basis. For the Pro12, top 2 or top 4 should get auto entry and then each country should have 1 representative from the remaining teams

With the Anglo-French cup all but agreed as a contingency then I'm not sure the Rabo Unions have a leg to stand on anymore, they could threaten to sabotage the 6N but that would be the emptiest of empty threats.

Though your arguement is back to comparing countries rather than comparing leagues. The Anglo-French alliance are pushing for each league to be given 6 places with a further two for the winner of the HEC and the Amlin. The current demands are that the top 6 from the Rabo go through, I think that is likely to be changed by the Rabo nations to the top team from each nation plus the next two best finishers in the league. The rest will be given Amlin places. That's a harsh cull but I can't see where the Rabo nations bargaining chips are going to come from.

Sam, I suppose in the end, it has to be an unwillingness to negotiate and just watch the Frnaglais teams walk away - seems unlikely that they ever would cos it would be shooting themselves in the collective foot, but I suppose that they have to be prepared for the possibility? Would the Franglais really want a competition just with themselves, minus the winners of 5 of the last 7 HECs? The Italians, Scots and Welsh have to do everything to keep the Irish on side, cos realistically, they are THE threat imo

Portnoy wrote:
So you mean 7 Franglos and 8 Rabos'
That the HEC 'winner' (as you put it) never made it on any of the above fantastical criterion would be Connacht rather than Leinster 'A' (see OP).
Similarly the Amlin winner automatically qualifies.

Leinster winning the HEC would either give the next Rabo team a place or the next Irish team a place - don't think IRFU would agree to Cardiff getting the place instead of Connacht.

If there was an English winner of the Amlin and HEC that would give England 9 places, French 7 and the Rabo 8. Fair?

No country is going to be happy....

one of the things that needs to be looked at is

1 is the HC cup for the elites of europe?

2 is the HC a truely european competition?

Personally i feel if you start excluding clubs from certain countries because they are in the Rabo will do far more damage to the Game in Europe.

red_stag wrote:In that case I reckon we should vote to see England and Wales as the same country due to the LV Cup.

+1

cp10 wrote:

Portnoy wrote:
So you mean 7 Franglos and 8 Rabos'
That the HEC 'winner' (as you put it) never made it on any of the above fantastical criterion would be Connacht rather than Leinster 'A' (see OP).
Similarly the Amlin winner automatically qualifies.

Leinster winning the HEC would either give the next Rabo team a place or the next Irish team a place - don't think IRFU would agree to Cardiff getting the place instead of Connacht.

If there was an English winner of the Amlin and HEC that would give England 9 places, French 7 and the Rabo 8. Fair?

No country is going to be happy....

You could even go a step forward in looking at the competition, switching from a group stage to pure knock-out. Say 32 teams (HC winners, Amlin winners, 10 french, 10 english, 3 Irish, 3 Welsh, 2 Scots, 2 Italian). Then have an open draw, Round of 32, Sweet 16, QF, SF, Final.

More teams in the competition.
Fewer rounds required for players. Eases player burden, reduces pressure on squads.
Proper knock-out rugby from the start.

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:Would the Franglais really want a competition just with themselves, minus the winners of 5 of the last 7 HECs? The Italians, Scots and Welsh have to do everything to keep the Irish on side, cos realistically, they are THE threat imo

I'd be fine with that. I expect most English club fans (and probably the French ones) would be happy enough with a competition involving their teams. I don't really care who's involved so long as the standard is reasonably high. In fact if a Franglo cup included all of the English teams and all of the French teams I'd prefer it to the HEC because there's more English involvement.

thebandwagonsociety wrote:You could even go a step forward in looking at the competition, switching from a group stage to pure knock-out. Say 32 teams (HC winners, Amlin winners, 10 french, 10 english, 3 Irish, 3 Welsh, 2 Scots, 2 Italian). Then have an open draw, Round of 32, Sweet 16, QF, SF, Final.

More teams in the competition.
Fewer rounds required for players. Eases player burden, reduces pressure on squads.
Proper knock-out rugby from the start.

So replacing 6 games with 2. Dropping ticket sales, tv and sponsorship revenue. AND the Amlin would be even more of a joke. Less teams in the HEC not more.

Or as I suggested, in another article,

Although some adjustment may have to be introduced to cater for playoff outcomes, I'll just nominally base it on final regular season league position.
Anomalies can be catered (to be decided by individual leagues?).

Rabo 2012 (HEC cup holders, Leinster)
'A' teams
2 Ospreys
3 Munster
4 Glasgow Caledonians
5 Llanelli
6 Ulster
7 Cardiff Blues

'B' teams
8 Connacht
9 Gwent Dragons
10 Benetton Treviso
11 Edinburgh Reivers
12 Zebre (new)

T14 2012 Amlin cup holders, Biarritz)
'A' teams
2 Stade Français
3 Clermont
4 Toulon
5 Racing Métro 92
6 Grenoble Rugby
7 Stade Toulousain
8 Bordeaux-Bègles

'B' teams
9 Castres Olympique
10 SU Agen
11 Bayonne
12 Perpignan
13 Montpellier
14 Grenoble (promoted)

Jeff
'A' teams
1 Harlequins
2 Leicester Tigers
3 Saracens
4 Northampton Saints
5 Exeter
6 Sale Sharks

'B' teams
7 London Irish
8 Bath
9 Gloucester
10 Worcester
11 London Wasps
12 London Welsh (promoted)


So sample draw may look something like this (home 'A' teams first):
Ospreys (rabo 2) v Grenoble (T14 14)
Stade Français (T14 2) v London Welsh (Jeff 12)
Harlequins (Jeff 1) v Zebre (Rabo 12)
Clermont (T14 3) v Wasps (Jeff 11)
Munster (Rabo 3) v Montpellier (T14 13)
.
.
.
.
Sale (Jeff 6) v Connacht (Rabo 8)
Cardiff (Rabo 7) v Castres (T14 9)
Bordeaux-Bègles (T14 8) v
Ulster (Rabo 6) v London Irish (Jeff 7)
and so on..,


All match winners (18) plus Leinster and Biarriz progress to the HEC.
Remainung 18 contest Amiln.


On reviewing there may be a couple of hiccups to iron out in the logic - like there are more A sides than B ones - so maybe the French (Amiln winners) might have to have six 'A' sides rather than 7.

So the bottom end of the draw (on paper the tastiest ones) where the mid-team contest take place would have to be re-jigged a tad.

But the principle remains the same. And just, to my mind a bit fairer.

One slightly interesting point hat I noticed on the Irish Q&A session that Pete posted was that the Jeff A League is only running from Sept to Dec. Will this mean that more of these players will see action in the full league and perhaps we'll have more squad rotation.

Portnoy wrote:Or as I suggested, in another article,

Although some adjustment may have to be introduced to cater for playoff outcomes, I'll just nominally base it on final regular season league position.
Anomalies can be catered (to be decided by individual leagues?).

Rabo 2012 (HEC cup holders, Leinster)
'A' teams
2 Ospreys
3 Munster
4 Glasgow Caledonians
5 Llanelli
6 Ulster
7 Cardiff Blues

'B' teams
8 Connacht
9 Gwent Dragons
10 Benetton Treviso
11 Edinburgh Reivers
12 Zebre (new)

T14 2012 Amlin cup holders, Biarritz)
'A' teams
2 Stade Français
3 Clermont
4 Toulon
5 Racing Métro 92
6 Grenoble Rugby
7 Stade Toulousain
8 Bordeaux-Bègles

'B' teams
9 Castres Olympique
10 SU Agen
11 Bayonne
12 Perpignan
13 Montpellier
14 Grenoble (promoted)

Jeff
'A' teams
1 Harlequins
2 Leicester Tigers
3 Saracens
4 Northampton Saints
5 Exeter
6 Sale Sharks

'B' teams
7 London Irish
8 Bath
9 Gloucester
10 Worcester
11 London Wasps
12 London Welsh (promoted)


So sample draw may look something like this (home 'A' teams first):
Ospreys (rabo 2) v Grenoble (T14 14)
Stade Français (T14 2) v London Welsh (Jeff 12)
Harlequins (Jeff 1) v Zebre (Rabo 12)
Clermont (T14 3) v Wasps (Jeff 11)
Munster (Rabo 3) v Montpellier (T14 13)
.
.
.
.
Sale (Jeff 6) v Connacht (Rabo 8)
Cardiff (Rabo 7) v Castres (T14 9)
Bordeaux-Bègles (T14 8) v
Ulster (Rabo 6) v London Irish (Jeff 7)
and so on..,


All match winners (18) plus Leinster and Biarriz progress to the HEC.
Remainung 18 contest Amiln.


On reviewing there may be a couple of hiccups to iron out in the logic - like there are more A sides than B ones - so maybe the French (Amiln winners) might have to have six 'A' sides rather than 7.

So the bottom end of the draw (on paper the tastiest ones) where the mid-team contest take place would have to be re-jigged a tad.

But the principle remains the same. And just, to my mind a bit fairer.

Your a wee bit out dated if your refering to Edinburgh as Edinburgh Reviers and Glasgow Warriors as Glasgow Caledonians. Shows how out of touch you are with the Rabo!

one of the things that needs to be looked at is

1 is the HC cup for the elites of europe?

2 is the HC a truely european competition?

Personally i feel if you start excluding clubs from certain countries because they are in the Rabo will do far more damage to the Game in Europe

That’s a very valid point, and in my opinion the HC fails in both respects.

The HC at the minute is NOT a pan-european cup as only a few select countries are allowed to attend and it’s NOT an elite competition as a handful of Unions get automatic inclusion no matter how week their teams are (no dig at anybody here – the English club sides could go into free fall but we would still get automatic entry).

At the minute the HC is a bit of an ‘Old Boys’ with the same Unions and generally the same sides appearing.

If the ERC really wanted to help European rugby – and I’m not just talking about those Unions participating in the 6 nations - they should revamp the two tournaments that runs under it’s auspices and make the top tournament really an elite competition for the top 10 or 12 Clubs/Provinces/Regions in Europe and make the second tier more meaningful. Or perhaps scrap the whole format and have one big knockout competition.

No particular axe to grind here – my club hasn’t been involved in the HC for years and is unlikely to be in the future for a couple of years at least.

HammerofThunor wrote:

Kingshu wrote:LV cup does generate a H-cup spot, so its up there with the Almin!

No it doesn't. A spot is allocated out of the English pot if an English team win it. No extra spot is generated. The Amlin gives the winner an extra HEC spot.

I think Sam's hit the nail on the head here in that the French and the English to consider the countries involved in the PRO12 as a collective and the unions involved in the PRO12 what to be seen a individual unions.

Excatly the English can alocate their H cup spots as they wish, so its between Prem and one to LV cup (if they are English),
But the English and French are not now allowing the other Unions the same, they want to dictate how the other unions use their h cup spots, and reduce them also. A bit hypocritical of the English there.

caoimhincentre wrote:one of the things that needs to be looked at is

1 is the HC cup for the elites of europe?

2 is the HC a truely european competition?

Personally i feel if you start excluding clubs from certain countries because they are in the Rabo will do far more damage to the Game in Europe.

If the HC is a truly European competition, then where are the teams from Romania, Spain, Georgia, Russia, etc? A line has been drawn to exclude those teams from HC (some compete in Amlin), largely on meriticratic lines. Why should teams like Zebre, Connacht and Chiefs fall above that line this season? All 3 for different reasons.

Sam, I suppose in the end, it has to be an unwillingness to negotiate and just watch the Frnaglais teams walk away - seems unlikely that they ever would cos it would be shooting themselves in the collective foot, but I suppose that they have to be prepared for the possibility? Would the Franglais really want a competition just with themselves, minus the winners of 5 of the last 7 HECs? The Italians, Scots and Welsh have to do everything to keep the Irish on side, cos realistically, they are THE threat imo

Thing is Asbo, can the Rabo nations really do without the HEC? The English and the French have financially lucrative, is slightly less interesting replacement on the table. It may be a case of which of the Rabo nations crack first. They all take out more than the put in, in terms of tv revenue so they will be losing out be refusing to negociate. Rugby in the NH will lose out by them refusing to negociate.

Personally I can see the Irish staying on the high horse the longest, they are the most likely to drag their heels as they need the cash injection to fund their central contracts and will feel they are owed something following Leinster's recent success. The Welsh and the Scottish are more likely to crumble as they need all the revenue to pay off debts and keep their regions afloat. The Italians will go with the Rabo concencus as they will not want to jepordise their position in the new league, though they are likely to push for at least one HEC spot as part of the negociations.

Excatly the English can alocate their H cup spots as they wish, so its between Prem and one to LV cup (if they are English),
But the English and French are not now allowing the other Unions the same, they want to dictate how the other unions use their h cup spots, and reduce them also. A bit hypocritical of the English there.

I would imagine that they will let the Rabo allocate their spots as they like. The key to the changes will be that the spots are allocated to the Rabo and not to individual nations anymore. Incidentally I see no point in shoving a HEC spot as a reward to the LV, I'd rather that was dropped.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

Sam, I suppose in the end, it has to be an unwillingness to negotiate and just watch the Frnaglais teams walk away - seems unlikely that they ever would cos it would be shooting themselves in the collective foot, but I suppose that they have to be prepared for the possibility? Would the Franglais really want a competition just with themselves, minus the winners of 5 of the last 7 HECs? The Italians, Scots and Welsh have to do everything to keep the Irish on side, cos realistically, they are THE threat imo

Thing is Asbo, can the Rabo nations really do without the HEC? The English and the French have financially lucrative, is slightly less interesting replacement on the table. It may be a case of which of the Rabo nations crack first. They all take out more than the put in, in terms of tv revenue so they will be losing out be refusing to negociate. Rugby in the NH will lose out by them refusing to negociate.

Personally I can see the Irish staying on the high horse the longest, they are the most likely to drag their heels as they need the cash injection to fund their central contracts and will feel they are owed something following Leinster's recent success. The Welsh and the Scottish are more likely to crumble as they need all the revenue to pay off debts and keep their regions afloat. The Italians will go with the Rabo concencus as they will not want to jepordise their position in the new league, though they are likely to push for at least one HEC spot as part of the negociations.

Excatly the English can alocate their H cup spots as they wish, so its between Prem and one to LV cup (if they are English),
But the English and French are not now allowing the other Unions the same, they want to dictate how the other unions use their h cup spots, and reduce them also. A bit hypocritical of the English there.

I would imagine that they will let the Rabo allocate their spots as they like. The key to the changes will be that the spots are allocated to the Rabo and not to individual nations anymore. Incidentally I see no point in shoving a HEC spot as a reward to the LV, I'd rather that was dropped.

But they haven't have they Sam - yet? In fact I doubt it's ever even crossed their collective minds that the two stances are mutually exclusive.

But it does highlight once again the paucity of joined-up thinking at the RFU/PRL.

Posit this: OW come bottom of the table and Wasps' coalition crumbles (they don't appear have season tickets on sale for essential income and building a cash flow prediction). And for the heck of it say OW win the LV.

What happens?
•OW get both relegated and an HEC place?
•OW get relegated to be replaced by two Championship clubs?
•OW stay up because they threaten to sue?
or what?

TrailApe wrote:

one of the things that needs to be looked at is

1 is the HC cup for the elites of europe?

2 is the HC a truely european competition?

Personally i feel if you start excluding clubs from certain countries because they are in the Rabo will do far more damage to the Game in Europe

That’s a very valid point, and in my opinion the HC fails in both respects.

The HC at the minute is NOT a pan-european cup as only a few select countries are allowed to attend and it’s NOT an elite competition as a handful of Unions get automatic inclusion no matter how week their teams are (no dig at anybody here – the English club sides could go into free fall but we would still get automatic entry).

At the minute the HC is a bit of an ‘Old Boys’ with the same Unions and generally the same sides appearing.

If the ERC really wanted to help European rugby – and I’m not just talking about those Unions participating in the 6 nations - they should revamp the two tournaments that runs under it’s auspices and make the top tournament really an elite competition for the top 10 or 12 Clubs/Provinces/Regions in Europe and make the second tier more meaningful. Or perhaps scrap the whole format and have one big knockout competition.

No particular axe to grind here – my club hasn’t been involved in the HC for years and is unlikely to be in the future for a couple of years at least.

I think you are spot on about making a second tier competition more meaningful.

At the moment there is so much money pumped into the HC that there is very little attention paid to the Amlin. Also lets face it all the top players will want to play in the HC also.

So the big question is how do you create an entire European structure that suits everyone, big clubs, small clubs, players and their ambitions and of course sponsors and those looking after the books in clubs and leagues around europe.

According to the IRFU the HC generates bugger all revenue for Irish teams, so I'm not sure how finanically crippling it would be for Irish teams if the Franglo's took their ball and went home.

I can't imagine the Welsh, Scottish and Italians are making a mint off of it either.

Mickado wrote:According to the IRFU the HC generates bugger all revenue for Irish teams, so I'm not sure how finanically crippling it would be for Irish teams if the Franglo's took their ball and went home.

I can't imagine the Welsh, Scottish and Italians are making a mint off of it either.

Think I remember reading that Edinburgh could get up to £1m plus for making it through to the Semi's. Mixture of prize money and the 38k people that watched the Toulouse match.

So yes there is a lot of money in it for the Rabo teams.

England and France hold all the cards IMO.

Money talks and all that....

IRFU accounts show that €9.5m was added to central income via provincial competition prize winnings according to their last annual report (2011-12).

Mickado wrote:According to the IRFU the HC generates bugger all revenue for Irish teams, so I'm not sure how finanically crippling it would be for Irish teams if the Franglo's took their ball and went home.

I can't imagine the Welsh, Scottish and Italians are making a mint off of it either.

I thought the IRFU got 5M euroes from the TV rights alone. Add in ticket sales, sponsorship, etc I would have thought the IRFU get a decent chuck of money (majority comes from international) from the HEC.

The Welsh regions get a combined total of £6M off the WRU don't they? They [WRU] probably get about £4M from the TV rights (assuming the same as the Irish). The Celtic unions probably see more of the money than the English clubs.