Aviva Premieship Round 3 - Preview and Discussion

First topic message reminder :

TABLE


Friday 14th September

Bath Rugby (4,4) v Northampton Saints (4,5) - 19:45 ESPN
Preview

Bath Team News:
Bath make two changes, Ben williams for the Injured Banahan and Paul James in for Nathan Catt.

15. Nick Abendanon, 14. Kyle Eastmond, 13. Dan Hipkiss, 12. Ben Williams, 11. Tom Biggs, 10. Olly Barkley, 9. Michael Claassens
1. Paul James, 2. Lee Mears, 3. David Wilson, 4. Stuart Hooper (c), 5. Dominic Day, 6. Simon Taylor, 7. Carl Fearns, 8. Ben Skirving

16. Ross Batty, 17. Nathan Catt, 18. Anthony Perenise, 19. Dave Attwood, 20. Josh Ovens, 21. Mark McMillan, 22. Ollie Devoto, 23. Jack Cuthbert


Saints Team News:
A few enforced changes for Saints - Burrell starts for the injured Pisi, tom Mercey is chosen ahead of PDJ to deputise for the Mooj. Finally Rhys Oakley stands in for the suspended van Velze. In the backs Myler chosen ahead of Lamb. Nice to see Lawes making an appearance on the Saints bench.

15 Ben FODEN, 14 Ken PISI, 13 Dom WALDOUCK ,12 Luther BURRELL ,11 Vasily ARTEMYEV ,10 Stephen MYLER ,9 Lee DICKSON ,
1 Soane TONGA'UIHA ,2 Dylan HARTLEY (capt) ,3 Tom MERCEY ,4 Samu MANOA ,5 Christian DAY ,6 Phil DOWSON ,7 Tom WOOD ,8 Rhys OAKLEY

16 Mike HAYWOOD 17 Alex WALLER 18 Paul DORAN JONES 19 Mark SORENSON 20 Courtney LAWES 21 Martin ROBERTS 22 Ryan LAMB 23 Tom MAY



Saturday 15th September

Worcester Warriors (1,0) v Gloucester Rugby (1,4) 13:30 ESPN
Preview

Worcester:
Warriors make changes on the wing, centre and back row with Walker, Carlisle and Kvesic coming in.
15 Chris Pennell, 14 Nikki Walker, 13 Alex Grove, 12 Joe Carlisle, 11 David Lemi, 10 Andy Goode, 9 Shaun Perry
1 Matt Mullan, 2 Aleki Lutui, 3 John Andress, 4 James Percival, 5 Dean Schofield (c), 6 Chris Jones, 7 Sam Betty, 8 Matt Kvesic

16 Ollie Hayes, 17 Ceri Jones, 18 James Currie, 19 Craig Gillies, 20 Semisi Taulava, 21 Jonny Arr, 22 Josh Matavesi, 23 Josh Drauniniu


Gloucester:
36 switches to 10 while Tindall returns in the 12 shirt.
Jonny May; Shane Monahan, Henry Trinder, Mike Tindall, James Simpson-Daniel; Billy Twelvetrees, Dan Robson;
Nick Wood, Huia Edmonds, Rupert Harden; Will James, Jim Hamilton (capt); Tom Savage, Andy Hazell, Ben Morgan

Darren Dawidiuk, Dan Murphy, Shaun Knight, Sione Kalamafoni, Akapusi Qera, Dave Lewis, Freddie Burns, Rob Cook




Harlequins (5,5) v Sale Sharks (0,1) – 15:00
Preview

Quins:
Care switches with Dickson, while Easter is back at 8 seeing Guest moving to 6. Clegg replaces Botica on the bench.

15 Mike Brown, 14 Tom Williams, 13 George Lowe, 12 Jordan Turner-Hall, 11 Ugo Monye, 10 Nick Evans, 9 Danny Care
1 Joe Marler, 2 Joe Gray, 3 James Johnston, 4 Charlie Matthews, 5 George Robson, 6 Tom Guest, 7 Chris Robshaw (C), 8 Nick Easter

16 Rob Buchanan, 17 Darryl Marfo, 18 Will Collier, 19 Peter Browne, 20 Maurie Fa'asavalu, 21 Karl Dickson, 22 Rory Clegg, 23 Matt Hopper


Sale:
cueto back into the Sales strarting XV

15.Rob Miller, 14.Tom Brady, 13.Johnny Leota, 12.Sam Tuitupou, 11.Mark Cueto , 10.Danny Cipriani, 9.Dwayne Peel ,
1.Eifion Lewis-Roberts, 2.Joe Ward, 3.Vadim Cobilas, 4.Richie Gray, 5.Kearnan Myall, 6.James Gaskell , 7.David Seymour (capt.), 8.Richie Vernon

16.Tommy Taylor, 17.Alasdair Dickinson, 18.Henry Thomas, 19.Fraser McKenzie, 20.Mark Easter, 21.Will Cliff, 22.Nick Macleod, 23.Mark Jennings




London Wasps (1,1) v London Irish (0,0) – 15:00
Preview

Wasps:
Masi returns for Wasps in the centre, while Stephen Jones makes his AP debut. Lindsay, Haskell and Vunipola move to the bench with thomas, Palmer and Johnson starting. Launchberry moves to 6.

1 Tim Payne, 2 T Rhys Thomas, 3 Fabio Staibano, 4 Tom Palmer, 5 Marco Wentzel, 6 Joe Launchbury, 7 Jonathan Poff, 8 Ashley Johnson
9 Joe Simpson, 10 Stephen Jones ,11 Christian Wade ,12 Andrea Masi, 13 Elliot Daly, 14 Tom Varndell, 15 Hugo Southwell (c)

16 Tom Lindsay, 17 Simon McIntyre, , 18 Zak Taulafo, 19 James Haskell, 20 Billy Vunipola, 21 Charlie Davies, 22 Nick Robinson, 23 Tommy Bell


London Irish:

15. Tom Homer; 14. Topsy Ojo*13. Jonathan Joseph*; 12. Sailosi Tagicakibau*; 11. Marland Yarde 10. Steve Shingler; 9. Tomás O’Leary*; 1. Max Lahiff; 2. Scott Lawson*; 3. Leo Halavatau; 4. George Skivington; 5. Bryn Evans*; 6. Declan Danaher (Captain); 7. Ofisa Treviranus*; 8. Jon Fisher

16. Brian Blaney; 17. Halani Aulika*; 18. John Ryan; 19. Kieran Low; 20. Alex Gray; 21. Anthony Watson; 22. Shane Geraghty*; 23. Jack Moates



Saracens (5,4) v Leicester Tigers (5,5) – 15:30 SKY
Preview

Saracens Team News:
A fair few changes for Sarries - Carlos Nieto, Jackson Wray, Neil de Kock, Owen Farrell and James Short recalled to the starting line-up, with Petrus du Plessis, Will Fraser, Richard Wigglesworth, Charlie Hodgson and Chris Wyles switching to the replacement's bench.

15 Alex Goode,
14 Chris Ashton, 13 Joel Tomkins, 12 Brad Barritt, 11 James Short, 10 Owen Farrell, 9 Neil de Kock,
1 Mako Vunipola, 2 Schalk Brits, 3 Carlos Nieto, 4 Steve Borthwick (c), 5 Mouritz Botha, 6 Kelly Brown, 7 Jackson Wray, 8 Ernst Joubert

16 John Smit, 17 Rhys Gill, 18 Petrus du Plessis, 19 Alistair Hargreaves, 20 Will Fraser, 21 Richard Wigglesworth, 22 Charlie Hodgson, 23 Chris Wyles


Tigers Team News:
Tigers, bringing in Cole for Castro and Logo for Stanko. Final change on the bench sees Chuter replacing Hawkins.

15 Geordan Murphy (c), 14 Scott Hamilton, 13 Manusamoa Tuilagi, 12 Anthony Allen, 11 Vereniki Goneva, 10 Toby Flood, 9 Sam Harrison
1 Logovi'i Mulipola, 2 Tom Youngs, 3 Dan Cole, 4 Graham Kitchener, 5 Geoff Parling, 6 Steve Mafi, 7 Julian Salvi, 8 Thomas Waldrom

16 George Chuter, 17 Boris Stankovich, 18 Martin Castrogiovanni, 19 Rob Andrew, 20 Jordan Crane, 21 Patrick Phibbs, 22 George Ford, 23 Matt Smiths swap prop




Sunday 16th September

London Welsh (0,0) v Exeter Chiefs (5,1) - 15:00
Preview

Exeter Chiefs:
Some reshuffling of the backs I understand.
15 Luke Arscott, 14 Ian Whitten, 13 Sireli Naqelevuki, 12 Phil Dollman, 11 Matt Jess, 10 Ignacio Mieres, 9 Will Chudley
1 Brett Sturgess, 2 Chris Whitehead, 3 Craig Mitchell, 4 Tom Hayes (capt), 5 James Hanks, 6 Tom Johnson, 7 James Scaysbrook, 8 Richard Baxter

16 Simon Alcott, 17 Ben Moon, 18 Carl Rimmer, 19 Aly Muldowney, 20 James Phillips, 21 Kevin Barrett, 22 Gareth Steenson, 23 Jack Nowell



London Welsh:
15. Tom Arscott, 14. Phil Mackenzie*, 13. Sonny Parker*, 12. Hudson Tonga’uiha*, 11. Nick Scott, 10. Gordon Ross*, 9. Tyson Keats,
1. Frank Montanella*, 2. Neil Briggs, 3. Paulica Ion*, 4 Jonathan Mills ©, 5. Matt Corker, 6. Daniel Browne, 7. Mike Denbee, 8. Ed Jackson.

16. Dan George, 17. Tom Bristow, 18. Arthur Joly, 19. Kirill Kulemin*, 20. Alfie To’oala*, 21. Jonah Holmes, 22. James Lewis, 23. Seb Jewell.

The only selection I raise eyebrows is Jackson Wray. I don't see him as a 7 though he's a good backrower. Pleased with the rest of the team though.

Hopefully Farrell will mix up his game a bit more than just repeatedly kicking it.

Pleased with Nieto,De Kock and Short though.

I am optimistic.

Good to see Matthews out for Quins. That is a very near full strength team. Hope the pack can manage without Kohn though. Nice to see Clegg on the bench to get a run out.

Very strong teams from Tigers and Sarries too. Come on the draw!

Let's also see how Cips does against Nev. I would honestly really like Cipriani to have a great season at Sale an fulfil his potential. I just doubt it will happen. But then I thought Murray would never win a Major so what do I know?

beshocked wrote:The only selection I raise eyebrows is Jackson Wray. I don't see him as a 7 though he's a good backrower. Pleased with the rest of the team though.

Hopefully Farrell will mix up his game a bit more than just repeatedly kicking it.

Pleased with Nieto,De Kock and Short though.

I am optimistic.

I'm quite surprised Farrell has been selected over Hodgson. Is that a form/rotation move?

I think Sarries have the better 11-15, but the Tigers pack look much better, so I can see Farrell getting a lot of back foot ball and I'd have thought Hodgson has more to his game to help create attacking ball than Farrell. I have changed my initial thought of a draw and gone with a Tigers win by a point! My Sport Guru is either going to see me rocket to the top or bottom of the table this week!

OK all teams except sundays game up in the OP - plus comments on changes where I could work them out.

Gloucester have decided to try 36 at 10. this of course means tinds returns - we could see a fairly negative approach, which could be playing into the Warriors hands.

Sarries make a number of changes - while short coming in suggests more attack, Wray at 7 and swapping the half-backs suggests we will see more kicking and less passing.

Wasps also make a plethora of changes. Good to see Jones making a debut and Wasps fans will be glad to see Masi back in the centre. significant changes in the pack wit Palmer coming into the second row, Launchberry switching to 6 (replacing the brand) and Johnson replacing Vunipola.

HKC,

I am sure Ashton would work better with hodgson but hey ho.

De Kock and Farrell will need to kick well because Tigers have looked extraordinarily good on the counterattack so far. Goneva could cause absolute havoc.

As the Gold Cap winner on SB last week the pressure is on me, i was going to go for a Sarries win by 7, but now I am not sure.

bit surpised Wasps have benched Haskell. despite that, there pack will probably still get on the front foot v Irish, although I think Irish have the better backline.

LondonTiger I went for a Sarries win by 7.

HKC I disagree. I don't think the Leicester pack is better. I think they are pretty evenly matched sides but I believe our bench is stronger.

Farrell is picked on rotation.

Biggest worry is M.Tuilagi. I can see him causing a lot of trouble for Tomkins.

Also will Tigers really want to kick the ball to Goode,Ashton and Short?

OK all teams up, so my predictions:

Saints win at Bath by 8pts
worcester record their first win at home to Glaws.
Quins struggle for 50 minutes with Sale but eventually win by about 12.
Wasps to play a tighter game but still find spaces for Wade and Varndell. Haskell comes on at 55minutes to shore up the defence and prevent an LI fightback. Wasps win by 10.
chiefs pummel LW up front winning by 20. LW score 3 tries causing Rob Baxter a few concerns over defence - but Chiefs score more.

Strong looking Quins team, no real surprises but good to see Guest and Mathews starting. Especially with Gray starting for Sale.

Anyone know how Gray has gone so far?

Tigers will be running it Beshocked.

Playing Wray ahead of Frase is a mistake as Sarries will need to slow down tigers ball to allow the defences to re-align.

hopefully De Kock and Farrell will be kicking it - as you will be shocked by the quality of our kick returns this season.

beshocked wrote:LondonTiger I went for a Sarries win by 7.

HKC I disagree. I don't think the Leicester pack is better. I think they are pretty evenly matched sides but I believe our bench is stronger.

I definitely feel your backs bench is better, but I feel Tigers shade it with the forwards as Castro and Crane should make a huge impact.

I do really wish we'd focus on Guest as an 8

LondonTiger wrote:Tigers will be running it Beshocked.

Playing Wray ahead of Frase is a mistake as Sarries will need to slow down tigers ball to allow the defences to re-align.

hopefully De Kock and Farrell will be kicking it - as you will be shocked by the quality of our kick returns this season.

I agree. I would have started Fraser. De Kock is a more attacking fly half. Maybe Farrell will run it.

Can't say I know much about Rob Andrew on your bench.

stnick88 wrote:bit surpised Wasps have benched Haskell. despite that, there pack will probably still get on the front foot v Irish, although I think Irish have the better backline.

I think Haskell has played a huge amount of Rugby over the past two seasons. I would rest him as much as possible. I am sure he will still see a lot of match time though...........

beshocked wrote:
I agree. I would have started Fraser. De Kock is a more attacking fly half. Maybe Farrell will run it.

Can't say I know much about Rob Andrew on your bench.

Perhaps I cannot get the image of De Kock and Jackson/Hougaard kicking every single ball out of my head. Certainly my image of de Kock is a player who kicks too much.

Rob Andrew is a lump of South African beef. In the two matches I have seen him play looks very solid - sort of like Botha only better. I prefer to see Kitchener playing though. I am guessing only reason Sarries did not sign him is he has an English name

LondonTiger wrote:Tigers will be running it Beshocked.

Playing Wray ahead of Frase is a mistake as Sarries will need to slow down tigers ball to allow the defences to re-align.

hopefully De Kock and Farrell will be kicking it - as you will be shocked by the quality of our kick returns this season.

Completely agree that Fraser has looked pretty effective at the breakdown so far this season, his defensive and ball retention stats for the beginning of the season have been less impressive though; 5 tackles made, 3 missed; 8 carries, turned over on 3 of them.

It's also interesting to compare the thought that Saracens will need to slow Tigers' ball down to that expressed on Sky's Rugby Club last night. Their opinion (not one I completely share, but I see some truth in) was that Tigers' forwards aren't particularly focused on getting quick ball when players go to ground in the red zone, that they often tend to a bit more safety first, allowing sides more time to realign than a number of Europe's other top teams do. That Tigers have great ball retention as a result and that their power game & incision from those positions usually still sees them profit, but that it's often not due to the quickest breakdown ball and that this has restricted their potential profit against the best sides around.

Good to see Masi back in the centre for Wasps as he looked very handy against Quins in the first game before going off injured.
I think Stephen Jones coming in will hopefully get the backs moving quickly.
Haskell & Billy V to come on in the second half & wreak havoc.

ChequeredJersey wrote:I do really wish we'd focus on Guest as an 8

Agreed but he seems like a very chilled guy when i've spoken to him so maybe he's not fussed? He might just enjoy playing and starting at either 6 or 8. Do we have any wrecking ball 6's coming through? (Guys in the style of Fa'Asavalu?).

I do hope though that the next academy boy coming through to the first team is played as a specialist 8 as we're going to miss Easter's technical skills massively otherwise. And the earlier they can start forming that partnership with Care the better.

niwatts wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:Tigers will be running it Beshocked.

Playing Wray ahead of Frase is a mistake as Sarries will need to slow down tigers ball to allow the defences to re-align.

hopefully De Kock and Farrell will be kicking it - as you will be shocked by the quality of our kick returns this season.

Completely agree that Fraser has looked pretty effective at the breakdown so far this season, his defensive and ball retention stats for the beginning of the season have been less impressive though; 5 tackles made, 3 missed; 8 carries, turned over on 3 of them.

It's also interesting to compare the thought that Saracens will need to slow Tigers' ball down to that expressed on Sky's Rugby Club last night. Their opinion (not one I completely share, but I see some truth in) was that Tigers' forwards aren't particularly focused on getting quick ball when players go to ground in the red zone, that they often tend to a bit more safety first, allowing sides more time to realign than a number of Europe's other top teams do. That Tigers have great ball retention as a result and that their power game & incision from those positions usually still sees them profit, but that it's often not due to the quickest breakdown ball and that this has restricted their potential profit against the best sides around.

Does this again come back to Tigers not having a breakdown coach like they did when they were playing a lot better a few seasons back? ( A lot better in Europe anyway).

yappysnap wrote:

ChequeredJersey wrote:I do really wish we'd focus on Guest as an 8

Agreed but he seems like a very chilled guy when i've spoken to him so maybe he's not fussed? He might just enjoy playing and starting at either 6 or 8. Do we have any wrecking ball 6's coming through? (Guys in the style of Fa'Asavalu?).

I do hope though that the next academy boy coming through to the first team is played as a specialist 8 as we're going to miss Easter's technical skills massively otherwise. And the earlier they can start forming that partnership with Care the better.

That'd be Clifford then? Or baby- Chisholm?

We could always get Newcastle back for nicking York and take Robinson off them?

niwatts wrote:It's also interesting to compare the thought that Saracens will need to slow Tigers' ball down to that expressed on Sky's Rugby Club last night. Their opinion (not one I completely share, but I see some truth in) was that Tigers' forwards aren't particularly focused on getting quick ball when players go to ground in the red zone, that they often tend to a bit more safety first, allowing sides more time to realign than a number of Europe's other top teams do. That Tigers have great ball retention as a result and that their power game & incision from those positions usually still sees them profit, but that it's often not due to the quickest breakdown ball and that this has restricted their potential profit against the best sides around.

Tigers have been looking to get much quicker ball this season - though yes when in the opposition 22 they do slow down at times to ensure retention. The problem with the Rugby club is they are very slow to change their views and rely on historical stereotypes. The 5 second rule has almost liberated tigers - and (admittedly against two poor teams) it has been the opposition recycling ball slowly and taking their time, whiel Tigers have been very quick at the breakdown.

This is an acid test though - decent opposition and 3rd choice SH.

LondonTiger wrote:

niwatts wrote:It's also interesting to compare the thought that Saracens will need to slow Tigers' ball down to that expressed on Sky's Rugby Club last night. Their opinion (not one I completely share, but I see some truth in) was that Tigers' forwards aren't particularly focused on getting quick ball when players go to ground in the red zone, that they often tend to a bit more safety first, allowing sides more time to realign than a number of Europe's other top teams do. That Tigers have great ball retention as a result and that their power game & incision from those positions usually still sees them profit, but that it's often not due to the quickest breakdown ball and that this has restricted their potential profit against the best sides around.

Tigers have been looking to get much quicker ball this season - though yes when in the opposition 22 they do slow down at times to ensure retention. The problem with the Rugby club is they are very slow to change their views and rely on historical stereotypes. The 5 second rule has almost liberated tigers - and (admittedly against two poor teams) it has been the opposition recycling ball slowly and taking their time, whiel Tigers have been very quick at the breakdown.

This is an acid test though - decent opposition and 3rd choice SH.

I'm not convinced that Harrison is 3rd choice SH any more - more like 2nd=. But Tigers don't seem to fare too well on 'neutral' gronds. The Rugby club alluded to that last night as well. Not even at the Walkers could I feel confident. Personally I'd rather the game was at Watford.

Based on the Nottingham match and the 20 minutes before he was injured against LW, Young was sharp, really sharp.

Come on you Barf! 35s in and it's try time!

Bath season not too bad so far

ChequeredJersey wrote:Bath season not too bad so far

Yup, plenty of time for it to head down hill!

That was just stupid from the Bath pack. Ref blew three times and there is no way they didn't hear it, Bath crowd is quiet at the best of times!

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

ChequeredJersey wrote:Bath season not too bad so far

Yup, plenty of time for it to head down hill! ;)

Or get better!

Saints lineout is shockingly bad atm

Both are! Credit to both for disrupting each other I think

Bit harsh on Mercey that, I thought he'd dealt with James very well.

Frak this doesn't look good for Foden!

aye, that could be a season ending injury

That's ridiculous from the ref, that was clearly a deliberate knock on from Biggs.

James gets destroyed at the scrum, not the first time he's been done either. I'm not that impressed with him so far.

Cumbrian wrote:That's ridiculous from the ref, that was clearly a deliberate knock on from Biggs.

Yeah, Biggs got lucky there.

What happened to Foden?!

Attwood jsut got man shamed there, what have Bath done to him?!? He was pulling up trees a couple of seasons ago.

ChequeredJersey wrote:What happened to Foden?!

His foot got caught in the turf when hit by a tackle, horrid bend on the ankle - for a while looked like dislocation and break, but as he needed minimal care before being carried off hopping, maybe "only" ligament damage.

ChequeredJersey wrote:What happened to Foden?!

Rolled his ankle really badly in attack, the commentators were speculating that it was a ligament injury because he had to be carried off.

James justifying his price tag a little there, turned Doran-Jones inside out.

Bath are getting stoofed in this 2nd half. Practically all of the play has been in their half of the field.

defence been great though, only conceded three points, easily could have conceded 1/2 tries

Saints looking a little light on inspiration though, Barkley slots this and Bath take the lead in a very scrappy game.

Agreed, they are going to go further ahead now too.

Edit: I always speak too bloody soon.

Olly Barkley is the death of creativity, how many overlap does he want to ignore in favour of booting the ball aimlessly away?

Bloody hell Manu Samoa gets through some good work. A lot of tackles from him, really impressed

Cumbrian wrote:Olly Barkley is the death of creativity, how many overlap does he want to ignore in favour of booting the ball aimlessly away?

Team orders!

Bathite wrote:Bloody hell Manu Samoa gets through some good work. A lot of tackles from him, really impressed

I keep getting his name wrong as well. Samu Manoa

Yes he has worked his yankee butt off.