About v2england backline
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mowgli
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The v2 Forum :: Sport :: Rugby Union :: International
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england backline
by adambarney Tue 09 Oct 2012, 2:44 pm
First topic message reminder :
I think england need to pick backline of pace and creativity. At half back we need to get balance right do we go with youngs,flood or more pacey option in simpson,burns. In midfield looks like it going to be barritt,tuilagi or tuilagi,joseph but this burrell looks to have the lot but it early days. The back three could be ashton,wade,brown but lancaster might go for monye ahead of wade which is stupid even varndell should be ahead of monye.what do you think?.
I think england need to pick backline of pace and creativity. At half back we need to get balance right do we go with youngs,flood or more pacey option in simpson,burns. In midfield looks like it going to be barritt,tuilagi or tuilagi,joseph but this burrell looks to have the lot but it early days. The back three could be ashton,wade,brown but lancaster might go for monye ahead of wade which is stupid even varndell should be ahead of monye.what do you think?.
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Re: england backline
by lostinwales Thu 11 Oct 2012, 5:44 pm
I think Strettle's time has gone.
He looked made for the test arena when he first appeared but injuries and time havnt been kind,
He looked made for the test arena when he first appeared but injuries and time havnt been kind,
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Re: england backline
by beshocked Thu 11 Oct 2012, 5:47 pm
Lostinwales I agree it looks like that.
He's lost a bit of pace and mojo probably due to his injuries.
Saracens is also not the best place to be a winger.
He's lost a bit of pace and mojo probably due to his injuries.
Saracens is also not the best place to be a winger.
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Re: england backline
by Geordie Thu 11 Oct 2012, 7:08 pm
Triangulation wrote:Gentlemen,
I can certainly see why there is so much debate and contention on these boards when we have our online England selection meetings. I believe that have the most registered players out of any nation on the planet. I will be promptly corrected if I am wrong about that no doubt.
We are blessed with an abundance of backline players.
Players who lack the most fundamental of rugby skills in running, passing and the the draw and pass. Players who lack vision in terms of spotting and exploiting overlaps. Players who are not managed properly in terms of playing load and injury. Players who, while being good at one particular aspect of our beloved game are less than good or worse at one or more other essentials.
Tuilagi can run and tackle but not pass. Neither could the much Vaunted Nonu when he started out.
Farrell can tackle and kick but he cant pass. Agreed a work in progress
Wade can run and jink but cant tackle. He's a winger...lets worry what he does WITH the ball and then make plans for his defence issues...
Monye can wing but not fullback. So FECK??? He's a winger play him on the wing!!!
Brown can play fullback but not wing. Ditto Goode. Again SO WHAT???!!! They're Full backs!!!
You get the drift. There is one exception to all of this ( well apart from the injury part anyway) , he is still doing it at AP level but England have not picked him in a decade: dear old James Simpson-Daniel. His time is passed now I suppose. Sigh. JSD Should be an England great...didnt happen...lets look to the other youngsters....
So, as the Autumn International iceberg draws near, where were we with those deckchairs again?
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Re: england backline
by Triangulation Fri 12 Oct 2012, 9:44 am
Ok then chaps thanks for the comments. Chwj - I rate your opinions on this site. Thank you for putting me straight. I can cope with this because it's friday not monday morning. I suppose that I must accept that I am some kind of rugby fantacist and that I should not expect our players to be the complete package. At the same time I call on all of you to share my other expectation being that we will win 1 from 4 in the Autumn. Quid pro quo.
Geordie Falcon you too are a bit of a stallwart. I'm surprised you haven't raised Fitzpatrick again! My point re fullbacks not being able to play wing I suppose was poorly made - what I was really driving at was that I want them to be able to play both. I don’t see the core skills of the two positions as being very different. If you can play one but not the other then the reason for that must be a lack of skills. There will be many times presumably when a wing finds himself at fullback and vice versa and if they cant cope with that then god help us.
Geordie Falcon you too are a bit of a stallwart. I'm surprised you haven't raised Fitzpatrick again! My point re fullbacks not being able to play wing I suppose was poorly made - what I was really driving at was that I want them to be able to play both. I don’t see the core skills of the two positions as being very different. If you can play one but not the other then the reason for that must be a lack of skills. There will be many times presumably when a wing finds himself at fullback and vice versa and if they cant cope with that then god help us.
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Re: england backline
by Triangulation Fri 12 Oct 2012, 10:16 am
Oh and by the way I am on record as saying on this board that we should select players for what they can bring to the side and that we should not always refuse to select a player for what they cannot do. I still hold to that however as my post here hopefully makes clear I do find the deficiencies to be a bit too glaring.
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Re: england backline
by Geordie Fri 12 Oct 2012, 10:49 am
Tri
As much as i push Fitzy, much is a slight tongue in cheek. Whilst his physicality is well suited to international level...his skills arent at the moment.
Ok
With regards to the back three...you are right they are interchangable to a a degree...but there are still subtle differences in positioning, and some skill requirments.
For example a Full back should have a skills set like a second 10 for example. Solid kicker, good runner, knowing where to position himself correctly, strong under the high ball, good tackler...in essence a complete alrounder.
A winger for me (whilst i agree the more skills the better) is there essentially as a strike runner...to score tries....or add impulse to attacks.
He should be an electric runner...and finisher.
Yes having a strong defence is a wish, as is kicking etc...but these are skills that winger can dare i say forsake....IF they do their first job.
Look at the likes of Lomu, Campese, Underwood, Caucau, Tuigamala..etc etc rated some of the best ever wingers...yet you couldnt call them complete in the sence to cover full back....and i wouldnt want them at FB. They were there to do a job...score tries or cause as much havoc offensively as possible.
I hope ive explained my thoughts well enough there...
As much as i push Fitzy, much is a slight tongue in cheek. Whilst his physicality is well suited to international level...his skills arent at the moment.
Ok
With regards to the back three...you are right they are interchangable to a a degree...but there are still subtle differences in positioning, and some skill requirments.
For example a Full back should have a skills set like a second 10 for example. Solid kicker, good runner, knowing where to position himself correctly, strong under the high ball, good tackler...in essence a complete alrounder.
A winger for me (whilst i agree the more skills the better) is there essentially as a strike runner...to score tries....or add impulse to attacks.
He should be an electric runner...and finisher.
Yes having a strong defence is a wish, as is kicking etc...but these are skills that winger can dare i say forsake....IF they do their first job.
Look at the likes of Lomu, Campese, Underwood, Caucau, Tuigamala..etc etc rated some of the best ever wingers...yet you couldnt call them complete in the sence to cover full back....and i wouldnt want them at FB. They were there to do a job...score tries or cause as much havoc offensively as possible.
I hope ive explained my thoughts well enough there...
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Re: england backline
by Sgt_Pooly Fri 12 Oct 2012, 10:55 am
Habana, JP, Ioane, Bowe, Gear etc. Top, on form wingers that don't play FB.
A winger should be steady under the high ball but he doesn't need to be able to play FB.
A winger should be steady under the high ball but he doesn't need to be able to play FB.
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Re: england backline
by Triangulation Fri 12 Oct 2012, 11:09 am
I can't disagree really with any of that Geordie or SGT. I would only add that I like my fullbacks to have finishing pace and that i don’t see that positioning, high ball and catching and kicking skills and running threat should be mutually exclusive.
There are different types of wing and different types of fullback. I do accept that.
The malaise that I describe does extend to our forwards as well. We have promising hookers who cant throw in lineouts. We have lineout kings who are ineffectual around the field and so on.
I just find it very frustrating and i think were going to struggle in the AIs.
There are different types of wing and different types of fullback. I do accept that.
The malaise that I describe does extend to our forwards as well. We have promising hookers who cant throw in lineouts. We have lineout kings who are ineffectual around the field and so on.
I just find it very frustrating and i think were going to struggle in the AIs.
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Re: england backline
by Geordie Fri 12 Oct 2012, 12:10 pm
Dont get me started on our non throwing hookers and ineffective Second Rows!! 
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Re: england backline
by Triangulation Fri 12 Oct 2012, 1:45 pm
Chjw13
Why do you think Lancaster will go with JTH on the bench? He only really covers 12 doesn’t he? This seems a little left field to me.
Also talk to us about why you want Goode in at 15 over Brown. Is it because you see him coming up into the line playing as an auxilliary 10? I would like to see this as it would give Flood licence to take the ball to the line, knowing that someone else can pull the strings if he ends up at the bottom of a ruck.
Why do you think Lancaster will go with JTH on the bench? He only really covers 12 doesn’t he? This seems a little left field to me.
Also talk to us about why you want Goode in at 15 over Brown. Is it because you see him coming up into the line playing as an auxilliary 10? I would like to see this as it would give Flood licence to take the ball to the line, knowing that someone else can pull the strings if he ends up at the bottom of a ruck.
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Re: england backline
by Poorfour Fri 12 Oct 2012, 2:06 pm
At international level, I think decent defence is a must for a winger. Ben Cohen scored about 1 try per 2 games for England - which was a decent enough strike rate - but his cover tackling stopped at least 1 try per game.
So on balance he was worth about 10 points a game to England - which is more than the margin of victory in a lot of their key games.
Wade is one for the future as far as I am concerned. For Wasps he and Varndell score enough tries to more than cover for their defensive deficiencies; they won't get as many chances at international level. Defence can be fixed, but Lancaster shouldn't be thinking of dropping players in at International level when they have obvious flaws that other teams will exploit.
So on balance he was worth about 10 points a game to England - which is more than the margin of victory in a lot of their key games.
Wade is one for the future as far as I am concerned. For Wasps he and Varndell score enough tries to more than cover for their defensive deficiencies; they won't get as many chances at international level. Defence can be fixed, but Lancaster shouldn't be thinking of dropping players in at International level when they have obvious flaws that other teams will exploit.
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Re: england backline
by ScarletSpiderman Fri 12 Oct 2012, 2:13 pm
Poorfour wrote:At international level, I think decent defence is a must for a winger. Ben Cohen scored about 1 try per 2 games for England - which was a decent enough strike rate - but his cover tackling stopped at least 1 try per game.
So on balance he was worth about 10 points a game to England - which is more than the margin of victory in a lot of their key games.
Wade is one for the future as far as I am concerned. For Wasps he and Varndell score enough tries to more than cover for their defensive deficiencies; they won't get as many chances at international level. Defence can be fixed, but Lancaster shouldn't be thinking of dropping players in at International level when they have obvious flaws that other teams will exploit.
The problem is sometimes a player who is naturally attacking minded can lose all their go forward ability if they are looking to tighten up in defense because they concentrate too much on being careful. It is one of those awkward ballancing acts.
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Re: england backline
by Geordie Fri 12 Oct 2012, 6:00 pm
Well we need to get have a balance...players who give solidity..etc...but you need those players who can do that bit of magic...
Campese was an abysmal tackler...but his attack meant he simply had to play...so Australia made plans to cover his defensive weakness.
Shane Williams wasnt the greatest tackler when he started out...but he learned.
I know defence is a huge thing....but we must still give these attacking magicians the chance to do what they do. JSD is one who should be an England great...
Wade has positioning and defensive issues.....but being around the England squad will improve that and England get the benefit of that electric offensive ability...at a time when we're not getting much from the midfield etc. The same could be said for May at Glos...
Campese was an abysmal tackler...but his attack meant he simply had to play...so Australia made plans to cover his defensive weakness.
Shane Williams wasnt the greatest tackler when he started out...but he learned.
I know defence is a huge thing....but we must still give these attacking magicians the chance to do what they do. JSD is one who should be an England great...
Wade has positioning and defensive issues.....but being around the England squad will improve that and England get the benefit of that electric offensive ability...at a time when we're not getting much from the midfield etc. The same could be said for May at Glos...
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Re: england backline
by kingelderfield Sat 13 Oct 2012, 8:28 am
My England back line contains no Sarries players as anyone who has seen them this year, barring Hodgson, will tell you they have been absolutely crap!
My England backline;
Care,
Flood,
Yarde,
Twelvetrees,
Joseph,
Tuilagi,
Brown.
Only injuries to inforn this line up would be Youngs and Foden, however this backline is chosen on primarily on form but with a mindful consideration on the next WC.
Now all we need is Malinder to take the reigns at the end of the season - not a bad bet in my book!
My England backline;
Care,
Flood,
Yarde,
Twelvetrees,
Joseph,
Tuilagi,
Brown.
Only injuries to inforn this line up would be Youngs and Foden, however this backline is chosen on primarily on form but with a mindful consideration on the next WC.
Now all we need is Malinder to take the reigns at the end of the season - not a bad bet in my book!
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Re: england backline
by Hood83 Sat 13 Oct 2012, 10:52 am
kingelderfield wrote:My England back line contains no Sarries players as anyone who has seen them this year, barring Hodgson, will tell you they have been absolutely crap!
My England backline;
Care,
Flood,
Yarde,
Twelvetrees,
Joseph,
Tuilagi,
Brown.
Only injuries to inforn this line up would be Youngs and Foden, however this backline is chosen on primarily on form but with a mindful consideration on the next WC.
Now all we need is Malinder to take the reigns at the end of the season - not a bad bet in my book!
I don't think that looks bad at all! I thought Yarde has been pretty decent and seems a much more complete and intelligent player than he did for the U20s, where he basically just used his pace. His defence looks pretty good to me for someone his age, and he looks like he enjoys the physical side of things. I'm not sure he's there yet, but one to keep an eye on. I think i'd still pick Ashton, but in the hope he'd forgotten everything he learnt at Sarries minus defence.
On Tuilagi, i know this gets a lot of grief from people, but I'm actually not convinced of him at 13. If his passing improves A LOT, perhaps, but at the moment it's too easy for people to chop his legs and know the ball will stay with him as he doesn't offload brilliantly either. If we had a vintage Greenwood inside him offering more of a running threat, maybe.
I know people will say he's been our most effective back, and that he breaks tackles. Agreed. But he seems to do that more when he shifts closer to the 12 channel and catches two players off guard. He doesn't have an outside break, and he doesn't ship the ball on well, so teams know they can squeeze the line and kill any move.
Sometimes I wonder if playing to our strengths means failing to address our weaknesses. Or at least, making us too one dimensional.
I don't think Twelvetrees is anywhere near the finished article, his passing can be erratic and his running is only so so. But he does kick from hand pretty well, his defence has suddenly become very aggressive, and generally his passing is good. I think he'd be a good foil for a really electric runner like Joseph.
As long as Tuilagi is regularly playing at 13, I wouldn't play him on the wing for England. But as a winger who comes off his line at pace, i think he could be much more effective. It would also help balance the team with one physical winger and a real rapid one like Ashton.
It's all pie in the sky but long-term I think there are two options with Tuilagi. He has a Nonu like conversion and learns to pass and off-load or he goes to wing. I think the latter might be more realistic.
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Re: england backline
by Geordie Sat 13 Oct 2012, 2:00 pm
I dont want Tuilagi on the wing...likewise Joseph or Lowe or Trinder.
We have wingers.....They are outside centres...with the poss that eventually with time Tuilagi could move in to 12.
Its irrelevant anyway if the forwards deliver the same amount of carrying ability as they did in SA....
We have wingers.....They are outside centres...with the poss that eventually with time Tuilagi could move in to 12.
Its irrelevant anyway if the forwards deliver the same amount of carrying ability as they did in SA....
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Re: england backline
by kingelderfield Sat 13 Oct 2012, 2:05 pm
Right you are Geordie. Lancaster has to learn to pick a nasty mean pack otherwise its all irrelevent.
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Re: england backline
by kingelderfield Sat 13 Oct 2012, 8:00 pm
I told you Sarries backline was crap........ 
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Re: england backline
by mowgli Sat 13 Oct 2012, 9:32 pm
I am not on the WUM but isn't is rather alarming for English fans that no one has the faintest clue what the back line is/should be/will be....who owns their shirt from 9-15?
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Re: england backline
by ChequeredJersey Sat 13 Oct 2012, 10:39 pm
Tuilagi owns a shirt, probably 13.
Otherwise you are right, but at least in some positions it is because of several good players (9, 15) rather than no exceptional players
Otherwise you are right, but at least in some positions it is because of several good players (9, 15) rather than no exceptional players
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Re: england backline
by Geordie Sun 14 Oct 2012, 12:03 pm
Mowgli...
In a sense yes...it would be nice for the backline to pick itself....
Unfortunately we arent in that position.
Probably only Tuilagi and Ashton are set in stone...
Scrum half and full back im not concerned because we have excellent options...Youngs v Care, Foden v Brown v Goode.
The concern is 10, 12 and that spare wing spot...
Hopefully this AI, and 6n we can sort that out
In a sense yes...it would be nice for the backline to pick itself....
Unfortunately we arent in that position.
Probably only Tuilagi and Ashton are set in stone...
Scrum half and full back im not concerned because we have excellent options...Youngs v Care, Foden v Brown v Goode.
The concern is 10, 12 and that spare wing spot...
Hopefully this AI, and 6n we can sort that out
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Re: england backline
by Geordie Sun 14 Oct 2012, 4:28 pm
But i think its clear from todays game that Ben Youngs needs to be ignored these AI's to recover his game.
Give Care the shirt for the full set of games....along with Dickson at Saints.
Give Care the shirt for the full set of games....along with Dickson at Saints.
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Re: england backline
by Barney McGrew did it Sun 14 Oct 2012, 10:04 pm
SL won't be for experimenting except for injuries:
9 Care (Youngs on bench)
10 Flood
11 Monye/Sharples
12 Barritt
13 Tuilagi
14 Ashton
15 Goode/Brown
9 Care (Youngs on bench)
10 Flood
11 Monye/Sharples
12 Barritt
13 Tuilagi
14 Ashton
15 Goode/Brown
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Re: england backline
by mowgli Sun 14 Oct 2012, 10:21 pm
wtf happened to Jonny's mini-me...i thought farrell was the wonder boy?
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Re: england backline
by Norfolkinchance Sun 14 Oct 2012, 10:30 pm
Care 9
Burns 10
Wade/Sharples/Monye? 11
Twelvetrees 12
Tuilagi 13
Ashton 14
Brown 15
21 Youngs
22 Flood
23 Goode
Burns 10
Wade/Sharples/Monye? 11
Twelvetrees 12
Tuilagi 13
Ashton 14
Brown 15
21 Youngs
22 Flood
23 Goode
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Re: england backline
by robshaw4england Tue 16 Oct 2012, 10:39 pm
Simples... 
09. Care
10. Cipriani
11. Joseph
12. Waldouck
13. Tuilagi
14. Ashton
15. Brown
09. Care
10. Cipriani
11. Joseph
12. Waldouck
13. Tuilagi
14. Ashton
15. Brown
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Re: england backline
by mowgli Tue 16 Oct 2012, 10:45 pm
robshaw4england wrote:Simples...
09. Care
10. Cipriani
11. Joseph
12. Waldouck
13. Tuilagi
14. Ashton
15. Brown
cips...oh that's good...but then i suppose he will need to play for Eng if he is to be Lions 10
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