Scotland vs All Blacks @ 2.30pm Sunday 11 Nov Murrayfield

by cp10 Wed 24 Oct 2012, 10:09 am

First topic message reminder :

Scotland team:

Backs: S Hogg, S Lamont, N De Luca, M Scott, T Visser, G Laidlaw, M Blair

Forwards: Grant, Ford, Cross, Gray, Hamilton, Strokosch, Rennie, Brown (capt).

Subs: S Lawson, A Jacobsen, K Traynor, A Kellock, D Denton, H Pyrgos, R Jackson, M Evans

All Black squad :

15 - Israel Dagg
14 - Cory Jane
13 - Ben Smith
12 - Tamati Ellison
11 - Julian Savea
10 - Daniel Carter
9 - Piri Weepu

8 - Victor Vito
7 - Richie McCaw (c)
6 - Adam Thomson
5 - Sam Whitelock
4 - Luke Romano
3 - Owen Franks
2 - Andrew Hore
1 - Wyatt Crockett

Reserves:
16 - Dane Coles
17 - Tony Woodcock
18 - Ben Franks
19 - Ali Williams
20 - Sam Cane
21 - Tawera Kerr-Barlow
22 - Beauden Barrett
23 - Ma'a Nonu

Two new caps : Kerr-Barlow and Dane Coles

by beshocked Mon 05 Nov 2012, 9:36 am

You'll be pleased to know KB got through the Saracens game against Wasps unscathed. I think Saracens brought him off early on purpose - probably on request from Andy.

by Imperialbigdave Mon 05 Nov 2012, 10:25 am

RDW_Scotland wrote:Game week!

Anyone bumped into an All Black then? I've seen a few pictures on Facebook - one guy with Richie McCaw and Andrew Hore, and another one with Dan Carter in a nightclub!

Have to say my missus is scanning social media like a hawk to try and find out where she can 'bump' into Dan Carter...!

THey always seem to use the CSE for strength training during the week. In other news, I need to get back at the weights

by GLove39 Mon 05 Nov 2012, 10:27 am

RDW_Scotland wrote:
Have to say my missus is scanning social media like a hawk to try and find out where she can 'bump' into Dan Carter...!

she's not the only one! Think how unfortunate it would be if Mr Carter was to meet with a little accident..! (Cue evil laugh & stroking of my white cat)

by cp10 Mon 05 Nov 2012, 10:49 am

GLove39 wrote:
RDW_Scotland wrote:
Have to say my missus is scanning social media like a hawk to try and find out where she can 'bump' into Dan Carter...!
she's not the only one! Think how unfortunate it would be if Mr Carter was to meet with a little accident..! (Cue evil laugh & stroking of my white cat)

They'd play Aaron Cruden or Beauden Barrett - both better than anything we've got.

by aucklandlaurie Mon 05 Nov 2012, 10:52 am

GLove39 wrote:
RDW_Scotland wrote:
Have to say my missus is scanning social media like a hawk to try and find out where she can 'bump' into Dan Carter...!
she's not the only one! Think how unfortunate it would be if Mr Carter was to meet with a little accident..! (Cue evil laugh & stroking of my white cat)

You could use that wee knife you guys keep in your sock,,,

by RuggerRadge2611 Mon 05 Nov 2012, 11:58 am

Well if the current injury crisis has now engulfed the 2nd row our choices trully are growing thin. Under the circumstances my team is as follows :

1. Grant
2. Ford
3. Cross
4. Kellock
5. Hamilton
6. Brown
7. Rennie
8. Denton
9. Laidlaw
10. Jackson
11. S. Lamont
12. Scott
13. NDL
14. Visser
15. Hogg

16. Traynor
17. Hall
18. Jacobson
19. Gilchsirst
20. Barclay
21. Blair
22. Dunbar
23. Seymore

At least thats who I would send out with just under a week till game day.

by disneychilly Mon 05 Nov 2012, 12:02 pm

Still can't believe we won the World Cup without him. And with Donald. Apparently Beaver was in fine form in the last few minutes of Bath's game on the weekend.

Maybe that knife was thrown at Carter from a cheeky Scot hiding during NZ's captain's run against Canada...

by caz Mon 05 Nov 2012, 2:24 pm

Gordy Reid is training with the Scotland squad this afternoon (from twitter).

by RuggerRadge2611 Mon 05 Nov 2012, 2:26 pm

An interesting interview with Edinburgh strike winger Tim Visser in todays Herald.

Tried & tested
Alasdair Reid
Herald Scotland

I'm over the 22, the full-back is sprawled on the turf 10 yards back and it's a clear run to the line. What now? I could finish with a swallow dive, but maybe it's too dry for that. And what about the celebration? High-fives all round because this one's a match-winner, or just a handshake because it could still go either way? I'll start with a smile. I always smile.

Tim Visser was made to score tries. He goes beyond prolific. In six RaboDirect PRO12 games this season he has crossed the line nine times, including a hat-trick on the opening weekend. He has had three full seasons at Edinburgh and he has been the league's top scorer in every one of them. He's done a lot of smiling in his time.

So just as well that he is eligible to play for Scotland at last. The momentous day arrived on June 12, exactly three years after he had moved to Edinburgh from Newcastle and began his residence qualification period. On June 16 he took the field for Scotland against Fiji to win his first cap; he walked off it with two tries to his name.

It was a most unScotsmanlike way to behave. Over the course of their nine previous matches, Scotland had scored just four tries. On the six occasions they drew a blank, all the talk had been of how Visser would turn things around. Just as well he likes a bit of pressure too.

But then, you could argue that he made a rod for his own back with that brace against Fiji as well. He might have silenced the doomsayers who aired their doubts about his ability to deliver on the big stage, but he created a few expectations as well. Have those two touchdowns raised the bar even further?

"Maybe, yes," he says when the point is put to him. "But I was just continuing from my form at Edinburgh. I had been doing it for a few years before that, so I think it was good to live up to the hype. It was building and I was trying to ignore it a little bit but it was good to score those first two tries.

"It's also reassuring. Having played at Edinburgh for a few years, and scored a lot of tries, you hear people asking if you can do that at international level. Hopefully I have shown that I can now and it's time to see if I can do it against New Zealand as well, which will be a massive step up."

Just a bit. Edinburgh have been misfiring all over the pitch this season, a pattern that makes Visser's scoring feats all the more remarkable but which hardly amounts to the best preparation for going mano a mano with the best team in the world. So is he trying to stay sanguine about it all? Feigning nonchalance? Talking the whole thing down?

None of the above. "It will probably be the match of my life," he says. Well, we did say he likes the pressure.

Not since Kenny Logan has Scotland had a player who was so willing to put his proverbials on the chopping block. But then, the Dutch-born Visser missed out on that immersion in the national inferiority complex that is the burden and the birthright of every home-bred Scot. He might a Scot in terms of the International Rugby Board's regulations, but, frankly, there's something not very Scottish at all about the way he looks at the world.

So no hang-ups about the 100-plus years of history in which Scotland have failed to register one victory over the All Blacks? No monkey on that broad back?

He shrugs. "We need to put stuff like that to bed," he says. "You can't think of those things when you're going into a big game. We need to prepare for how they have been playing recently and adapt our game plan to that.

"The game is a game. I don't like to think of things in the past. You can beat a team five or six times and then suddenly lose against them, and it can happen the other way around. Every game is a game in itself.

"Sure, we don't have a good track record against the All Blacks, but that's mostly because of the quality team they are. Not a lot of teams have a good track record against them."

For the avoidance of doubt, Visser does not come over as an arrogant individual. But the absence of cringing self-deprecation still sets him apart. Just as he's happy to keep a tally of the number of tries he has scored, and just as he spares us the mumbo-jumbo about just being happy to contribute something to the team, there is a refreshing air of self-belief about the 25-year-old winger.

It's a Dutch thing apparently. "In Holland we like to believe in ourselves," he suggests. "We believe that we can do stuff. I think Scottish people sometimes like being the underdogs."

The irony of all this is that Visser's self-esteem took a heck of a kicking in the season before he moved north. At Newcastle he had been branded as a player who was pretty useful going forward, but was about as useful as an abandoned toffee wrapper when the other lot had the ball. To his credit, he acknowledged that there was work to be done on his game; Newcastle, the perennial relegation battlers, had other things to worry about.

"Newcastle said to me that they were not in a position to develop me as a player. They desperately needed finished articles. Did they get that when I left? I don't know, maybe they are still looking. But I can't blame them for that.

"It was disappointing to leave the club because they gave me the opportunity to come to the UK in the first place. They are part of the reason I am here. But it was pretty mutual: I needed developing and they needed someone who was better."

Visser pays tribute to Andy Robinson, who signed him for Edinburgh in 2009, and Rob Moffat, who took over as head coach when Robinson moved on to the Scotland job.

"I wasn't in a position to be thinking of international rugby then," he says. "I just wanted to establish myself as a player and get a first team spot. I was just looking forward to joining a good club like Edinburgh. They had just finished second in the league and were very competitive."

His first season at Edinburgh was far from perfect, but he scored tries, including an astonishing five-minute hat-trick against the Ospreys. He was then meant to suffer second-season syndrome but it didn't happen – he kept scoring tries. In his third season, the critics backed off, and he scored more tries. It's what he does.

But you can sense a certain prickliness on the matter still. "I work hard for it," he says firmly. "I don't believe in luck. I get myself around the pitch and I get myself in good positions and those are my fundamentals.

"If I keep my work rate up I seem to be able to get myself in the right position at the right time. If I do that tries will keep coming. I'm sure there will be a time when I have a bit of a drought, but I'll go with that when I get there. So long as they keep coming I know that what I'm doing is working."

have to say I do like Tim Visser, not just because he scores lots of tries, but also he seems to be a nice guy. I follow him on twitter and he seems to be witty, honest and commited to both Edinburgh and Scotland.

Have to agree the Newcastle guys appraisal of his ability to go AWOL in defence. Fr a guy his size I'm not 100% sure why he has such a small tackle count. He could be a monster in marshalling the defence, but instead seems to be as much use as a Jelly Pick axe. It is an area for concern in his game that he will have to seriously work on if he is to cement his place for Scotland.

by funnyExiledScot Mon 05 Nov 2012, 3:09 pm

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:Well if the current injury crisis has now engulfed the 2nd row our choices trully are growing thin. Under the circumstances my team is as follows :

1. Grant
2. Ford
3. Cross
4. Kellock
5. Hamilton
6. Brown
7. Rennie
8. Denton
9. Laidlaw
10. Jackson
11. S. Lamont
12. Scott
13. NDL
14. Visser
15. Hogg

16. Traynor
17. Hall
18. Jacobson
19. Gilchsirst
20. Barclay
21. Blair
22. Dunbar
23. Seymore

At least thats who I would send out with just under a week till game day.

According to The Times, Hamilton is out with a rib injury, so I suspect Tom Ryder will start alongside Kellock, with Gilchrist on the bench. Raises obvious question marks over the power of our front row, but they all ought to be conspicuous in the loose, and we'll need some of that.

Disagree about picking Laidlaw at 9 - I'd go with Mike Blair and have Laidlaw on the bench. I'd also have Strokosch on the bench in place of Barclay. Barclay either starts at 7, or not at all. I don't subscribe to the view that he covers 6 (yet) or 8 (ever). Switch Visser and Sean Lamont as well, with Visser on the left and S Lamont on the right. If S Lamont doesn't make it, I'd give Seymour his debut. Thought he was outstanding for Glasgow at the weekend, and Toonie was bang on to compliment his workrate off the ball. He's also a specialist right winger and prefers that wing, so would compliment Visser nicely.

It's a real shame that we have so many off form players and injuries for this one. Makes an already massive task close to insurmountable. Still, it's often in those circumstance that the players surprise us.

My selections for the three matches (based on injury reports):

NZ (and SA)

1.Grant 2.Ford 3.Cross (Murray) 4.Kellock 5.Ryder (Hamilton) 6.Brown (c) 7.Rennie 8.Denton 9.Blair 10.Jackson 11.Visser 12.Scott 13.NDL 14.S Lamont 15.Hogg

16.Traynor (Cross) 17.Hall 18.Jacobsen 19.Gilchrist 20.Strokosch 21.Laidlaw 22.Dunbar 23.Seymour

Tonga

1.Grant 2.Ford 3.Murray 4.Hamilton 5.Kellock 6.Brown (c) 7.Barclay 8.Denton 9.Blair 10.Jackson 11.Visser 12.Scott 13.Dunbar 14.Seymour 15.Hogg

16.Cross 17.Hall 18.Shiells 19.Gilchrist 20.Strokosch 21.Laidlaw 22.NDL 23.Murchie

If Horne were to be fit I'd use him at 12 against Tonga.

Apparently Richie Gray will be out for 2-3 weeks. Personally I'd let him recover properly. Let's not rush him back, we need him fully fit for the 6 Nations.

by RuggerRadge2611 Mon 05 Nov 2012, 3:14 pm

I really like Jackson, and think he has become a threat with the ball in hand, but lest we forget we need to keep that scoreboard ticking over Hence my placement of Laidlaw at 9 if only for kicking duties.

I'm still operating under the hope that Hamilton can and will recover. As for Barclay on the bench, Denton and Brown are interchangeable at 6/8 IMO so would rather have a specialist 7 as cover on the bench.

As for the wings.... as has already been discussed I don't really pay much attention to what goes on outside the fly half. In my defence though, being a Scotland fan not much has been happening outside the 10 for the last decade.

by UlstermaninGlasgow Mon 05 Nov 2012, 3:22 pm

I' be tempted to give Ryan Grant a rest against Tonga, maybe throw Chunk in there or Gordy Reid, if he's been called up now.

I think you're right about Laidlaw. Either he starts at 10 or on the bench. Also Pyrgos should start against Tonga.

Disagree about Strokosch, he's a fanatical tackler but Barclay is classy... I'm still not convinced that Rennie is in better form... I'd be tempted by Brown, Barclay, Denton and Stroks on the bench... But that's just me!

Tom Ryder will do a good job. He's been pushed this season so far by Swinson and hasn't let anyone down. Big ask to step up to play the ABs but I don't reckon it'll phase him much

by funnyExiledScot Mon 05 Nov 2012, 3:38 pm

Agreed on Ryder. He's an experienced pro and he knows his abilities. It's a big step up for him, but he's a consistent performer and his workrate is excellent. Quite an unsung hero for Glasgow in my view, and a big contributor to the work ethic of that pack. He lacks size to be a top class lock, and I'd take both Hamilton or Gray ahead of him, but both are injured, and Gilchrist just doesn't deserve his debut after some anonymous performances this season.

Barclay is a better 7 than Strokosch, but he is only a 7 in my view. Strokosch gives you more versatility, as Brown can be shifted to cover either 7 or 8. It's a close call though, and either Strokosch or Barclay on the bench wouldn't bother me hugely.

I'm pleased that Gordon Reid has been called up, but too early for a Scotland call in my view. I'd go with Sheills against Tonga if you want to rest Grant.

I know it's a big risk having Jackson as the kicker, but Laidlaw hasn't played nearly enough rugby at 9 to go up against Aaron Smith or Peri Weepu, and I don't think we should be taking that risk purely because of doubts over Jackson's kicking. We need our best distributors at 9, 10 and 12, and in my view that's Blair, Jackson and Scott. That trio is our best creative combination, and there's no point in having players like Visser and Hogg, both attacking players, if we aren't going to give them any sort of supply.

by **RDW** Mon 05 Nov 2012, 3:59 pm

FES - bit harsh on Gilchrist I think. He's been one of our better players this year, getting through a lot of work and doing loads of carrying.

in fact, very harsh on him!

by funnyExiledScot Mon 05 Nov 2012, 4:16 pm

I'm sorry but he's our enforcer, and I've seen our pack melt too often this season. I'm thinking of the Treviso game at Murrayfield in particular, when our pack was totally bullied out of the game in the first half. I thought both Gilchrist and Denton were too passive that day and just going through their paces.

I agree that he's been one of our better players, but that really isn't saying much is it?

I missed the Scarlets game though, so perhaps he was better in that game.

He has lots of potential, and I was delighted with his debut season, but I wouldn't put him higher than average this season. Harsh given the general malaise surrounding him at Edinburgh, and it's affected other players as well (Denton in particular), but based on performances this season I'd pick Ryder ahead of him.

by **RDW** Mon 05 Nov 2012, 5:16 pm

Fair enough. He was pretty good against scarlets - must have been one of our top carriers and lineout worked well.

Let's not forget he's also only 21!!!

by funnyExiledScot Mon 05 Nov 2012, 6:08 pm

The fact that he's only 21 is very exciting. In my view locks tend to peak around the late 20's, so the very fact that he's first choice at Edinburgh and breaking into the Scotland squad at 21 is excellent progress.

He, along with Nick Campbell and Richie Gray, fill me with hope for the Scotland boiler room over the next decade. A very promising trio. Add Rob McAlpine to those three and we're well stocked going forward in that department, assuming they can stay fit.

To be honest I'll be far more positive if things can just be turned around at Edinburgh. It's impossible to see Scotland being successful when one half of the pro set-up can't score a solitary point in two attempts in the HC.

by Imperialbigdave Mon 05 Nov 2012, 7:07 pm

Anyone else think Mcalpines future could be on the blindside? He doesnt seem to have grown too much since last season, which is a bit of a worry for a lock. Got the mobility and hands for the flank however, and obviously will still be a lineout option.

by AsLongAsBut100ofUs Mon 05 Nov 2012, 7:09 pm

Imperialbigdave wrote:Anyone else think Mcalpines future could be on the blindside? He doesnt seem to have grown too much since last season, which is a bit of a worry for a lock. Got the mobility and hands for the flank however, and obviously will still be a lineout option.

Can't see it to be honest, IBD, at 6'7" he seems a little tall for blindside, and hopefully he'll bulk out as he progresses thru his 20s

by MacKnocked-on Mon 05 Nov 2012, 9:29 pm

Many more injuries to our locks and I can see Andy Robinson asking Nathan Hines to make a comeback.

by justified sinner Mon 05 Nov 2012, 9:35 pm

Er he's banned just now, stamping this time IIRC.

by Scot Abroad Mon 05 Nov 2012, 9:52 pm

Final guess at the team for Sunday.

1 Grant
2 Ford
3 Cross
4 Kellock
5 Ryder
6 Brown
7 Rennie
8 Denton

9 Blair
10 Laidlaw
11 Visser
12 Scott
13 De Luca
14 Schlong
15 Hogg

16 SLawson
17 Shiells
18 Chunk/Traynor
19 Gilchrist
20 Strokosch
21 Pyrgos
22 Jackson
23 Evans

Pack loses a bit of weight without Gray and Hamilton. Is Gilchrist the only other fit lock in the training squad? Swinson hasn't been called up yet so maybe Robbo is hoping for Hamilton to make a speedy recovery. Backrow of Brown, Rennie and Denton with Stroks on the bench. The more I thought about it, the more I realized that Brown has to play 6. Barclay was on the bench on Friday so is out of contention. Stroks on the bench to come on and hit anything and everything that moves. Opted for Schlong on the wing due to his physical presence as I’m pretty sure our wingers will be doing more defending than attacking. I would have preferred Dunbar at 12 for that same reason but like Barclay, he played on Friday and so is out of contention. I really hope Laidlaw is fit for this. If Jackson comes in then we don’t have another 10 available as cover unless he moves Scott in one. Horne would have to come onto the bench to provide something of a safety net and take over kicking duties if he came on. I just hope we can limit the tries and keep the score reasonable, maybe even touching down once or twice. Fingers crossed! Braveheart

by **RDW** Mon 05 Nov 2012, 10:05 pm

Looks fairly spot on Scot abroad.

I still think there might be a surprise though!

by jimbopip Mon 05 Nov 2012, 10:17 pm

Scot abroad, you do look pretty much on the money. Which does add fuel to a conspiracy theory that has been simmering at the back of my mind: two wins out of three would represent a successful series for us (improved ranking and better seeding). Which two are the most likely wins? Not the ABs for sure. I think Strokes, Barclay and Dunbar will start against the Boks for exactly the reasons you suggest, but playing them in three successive matches might be asking too much from them. Don't forget that Tonga will be big hitters no matter what else they do or don't bring to the party.So a lighter more mobile back row to disrupt AB possession, what could go wrong?

by Cryptoyourisan Tue 06 Nov 2012, 1:13 am

Yes that team seems about right for Robinson. I have a bit of an issue with how little game time a handful of players have had recently, e.g. Evans, Laidlaw, Lawson, Rennie, Scott and, to an extent, Lamont.

by AsLongAsBut100ofUs Tue 06 Nov 2012, 7:02 am

The Hootsmon today lists a probably starting XV (assuming Gray is fit):

PROBABLE XV

15 S Hogg

14 S Lamont

13 N De Luca

12 M Scott

11 T Visser

10 G Laidlaw

9 M Blair

1 R Grant

2 R Ford

3 G Cross

4 R Gray

5 J Hamilton

6 A Strokosch

7 R Rennie

8 K Brown (capt)

Mistake leaving out Denton imo, otherwise kind of picks itself - last men standing. 'Ruck Inspector' Kellock to start if Gray misses out

Braveheart

by AsLongAsBut100ofUs Tue 06 Nov 2012, 7:04 am

Reidy in the Herald singing a similar tune:

Denton pays for poor form

by Alasdair Reid, Rugby reporter

Dave Denton, Scotland's outstanding player in last season's RBS 6 Nations Championship, will not be in the starting line-up when the team to face world champions New Zealand at Murrayfield on Sunday is announce this morning.
inShare

The head coach Andy Robinson has kept his cards close to his chest, but Herald Sport understands that Denton's unimpressive recent form has counted against him. The Edinburgh forward missed out on Scotland's summer tour to Australasia due to an ankle injury, and it appears his recent performances have not been good enough to force his way back into the team.

Al Strokosch, the Paisley-born flanker who now plays for French side Perpignan, is the beneficiary of Denton's misfortune. Strokosch will play in his specialist position on the blindside flank, with Kelly Brown, the new captain who plays most of his club rugby in that slot, moving over to the No.8 berth that Denton occupied for Scotland last season.

Robinson almost certainly made up his mind on the back-row selection after watching Edinburgh's two Heineken Cup matches against Saracens and Munster. The capital side lost those games 45-0 and 33-0 and Denton was largely anonymous in both matches. An improved performance against Scarlets in the RaboDirect PRO12 was not enough to save his place.

Greig Laidlaw, who has also struggled for form at Edinburgh, has been rather luckier, and is expected to be confirmed as the starting fly-half, getting the nod ahead of Glasgow's Ruaridh Jackson. Laidlaw made his debut against the All Blacks two years ago when he came on as a replacement, albeit in the scrum-half berth.

Glasgow winger Sean Lamont, who has not played for a number of weeks, is also expected to be named in the team.

Last night, the indications were that lock Richie Gray might just win his battle to be fit for the game, despite suggestions from Sale coach Steve Diamond that he would be unable to play.

by Guest Tue 06 Nov 2012, 7:22 am

Interesting motivational approach, not a bad idea, but hopefully Scotland look at what the ABs can do as well...

In a bid to boost morale for Monday morning's test at Murrayfield against the All Blacks, a team they have never beaten, Scotland coach Andy Robinson instructed the team's video analyst to put together a package of lowlights from the men in black.

The Scotsman newspaper reported Robinson's scheme, suggesting it was "an attempt to humanise the world leaders and highlight how they remain vulnerable to pressure''.

http://m.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/article.cfm?c_id=4&objectid=10845571

by **George Carlin** Tue 06 Nov 2012, 7:24 am

I have no doubt whatsoever that teams are leaked pre-emptively to the Scots rugby press (Reid in particular) so I have no doubt it's correct that Denton has had his chips as a starter.

I have no problem with Stroker there - he's starting most matches for Perpignan who have generally been competitive in Top 14 matches this season and let's not forget he put in some pretty huge shifts during the SH tour.

I'd love Gray to be fit but if he's not 100%, then I don't want to rush him back - I'd rather he was fit for the Bokke, whom I'm convinced that we can actually beat.

by **George Carlin** Tue 06 Nov 2012, 7:27 am

ebop wrote:Interesting motivational approach, not a bad idea, but hopefully Scotland look at what the ABs can do as well...

In a bid to boost morale for Monday morning's test at Murrayfield against the All Blacks, a team they have never beaten, Scotland coach Andy Robinson instructed the team's video analyst to put together a package of lowlights from the men in black.

The Scotsman newspaper reported Robinson's scheme, suggesting it was "an attempt to humanise the world leaders and highlight how they remain vulnerable to pressure''.

http://m.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/article.cfm?c_id=4&objectid=10845571

Good post ebop - I do think that the ABs have beaten most teams before a ball is kicked as my friend who is a sports psychologist always tells me, there is absolutely no benefit whatsoever in being intimidated by your opponents. It has nothing but a negative effect on your play, it services no positive purpose whatsoever. They're just athletes and prone to the same pressures as everyone else. It is not inevitable that they should win. If you're on the paddock, you can influence the game.

Just show them the second test against Ireland, where the Blackness got out of jail free in the last 2 minutes. That should do it.

by AsLongAsBut100ofUs Tue 06 Nov 2012, 9:18 am

What worries me about that selection, and I'm not saying that there are bags of alternatives, is that arguably 5-6 of those players wouldn't have made an international team for any other top tier nation (Italy aside). That's the true state of the Scotland team

Braveheart

by **Biltong** Tue 06 Nov 2012, 10:47 am

GUYS DON'T FORGET YOUR PREDICTIONS

https://www.606v2.com/t36082-autumn-internationals-inhouse-prediction-game

by **RDW** Tue 06 Nov 2012, 10:52 am

OK BILTONG!

by **Biltong** Tue 06 Nov 2012, 10:55 am

by caz Tue 06 Nov 2012, 10:56 am

teams out - Backs: S Hogg S Lamont N De Luca M Scott T Visser G Laidlaw M Blair...

Forwards: Grant, Ford, Cross, Gray, Hamilton, Strokosch, Rennie, Brown (c)

Subs S Lawson A Jacobsen K Traynor A Kellock D Denton H Pyrgos R Jackson M Evans

Ritchie Gray subject to a fitness test.

by tigertattie Tue 06 Nov 2012, 11:03 am

As good as it was going to get really!

by AsLongAsBut100ofUs Tue 06 Nov 2012, 11:05 am

As predicted. Stroks to tackle himself to a stand-still, with Dozer coming off the bench to 8 and Brown shuffling over to blindside around 60-65 mins.

by **RDW** Tue 06 Nov 2012, 11:05 am

Big call leaving Denton on the bench. We have a fetcher in Rennie, a defender in Stokosh and an All rounder in Brown - can't help but think we're missing a big ball carrier in there. Strokosh isn't exactly renowned for his ball carrying.

Still, the best we're going to get really apart from that!

Depressing that Traynor is on the bench.

by Captain_Sensible Tue 06 Nov 2012, 11:23 am

Does anyone else find it ridiculous that Edinburgh are propping up the bottom of the Rabo, and yet provide 6 starts to this team, while Glasgow are near the top and only provide 3?

It seems that AR's 'fit and on form' selection criteria has gone out the window. I know we have limited options in some areas but I'm still disappointed with this selection. We're going to get tanked.

by **George Carlin** Tue 06 Nov 2012, 11:25 am

Gray and Hamilton both there, which is nice. AR must be reasonably confident that Gray will be fit to be aggressive enough to list him. Of completely desperate. At least we know that if he doesn't make it, Big Al is the next choice.

Max on the bench is probably right. He's versatile and hasn't had that much game time for Castres lately so Lamont's defense (probably against Savea) will have got him the slot.

Funny thing is, if you'd given us that line up at the start of the season, we would have thought it was a good team. So what we're really worried about is form. That can change. Here's hoping the Edinburgh backline get their fingers out and Laidlaw can come out from the rock that he's been hiding under.

Difficult to suggest what a good score will be. If we can keep it to 21 points or less and get a try on the board, then I will (sadly) be reasonably happy with that.

by **RDW** Tue 06 Nov 2012, 11:26 am

Captain_Sensible wrote:Does anyone else find it ridiculous that Edinburgh are propping up the bottom of the Rabo, and yet provide 6 starts to this team, while Glasgow are near the top and only provide 3?

It seems that AR's 'fit and on form' selection criteria has gone out the window. I know we have limited options in some areas but I'm still disappointed with this selection. We're going to get tanked.

I think the 3 Edinburgh forwards are to be expected, but the problem with the Edinburgh backs is that all of the Glasgow alternatives, apart from Jackson, have no caps and have only just been called into the training squad. He's obviously gone with experience over form in the backs.

by RuggerRadge2611 Tue 06 Nov 2012, 11:35 am

Captain_Sensible wrote:Does anyone else find it ridiculous that Edinburgh are propping up the bottom of the Rabo, and yet provide 6 starts to this team, while Glasgow are near the top and only provide 3?

It seems that AR's 'fit and on form' selection criteria has gone out the window. I know we have limited options in some areas but I'm still disappointed with this selection. We're going to get tanked.

Can't really argue with his selection. Glasgow would have almost certainly provided a tighthead had Lowe or Cusack been fit.

Glasgow have been playing well but it has to be said that noone would pick Kellock ahead of Hamilton or send in Prygos to face Weepu.
Had Jackson's kicking been better I could agree with sending him out at 10.
Finally, would you really like to cap Dunbar & Horne against Nonu and Smith?

I think we'll see the new Glasgow guys shine in this tour but I can understand why Robinson would be hesitant to send them out against the all blacks.

by AsLongAsBut100ofUs Tue 06 Nov 2012, 11:49 am

The Coo would have to be Scots-qualified first

by Captain_Sensible Tue 06 Nov 2012, 11:57 am

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:
Captain_Sensible wrote:Does anyone else find it ridiculous that Edinburgh are propping up the bottom of the Rabo, and yet provide 6 starts to this team, while Glasgow are near the top and only provide 3?

It seems that AR's 'fit and on form' selection criteria has gone out the window. I know we have limited options in some areas but I'm still disappointed with this selection. We're going to get tanked.

Can't really argue with his selection. Glasgow would have almost certainly provided a tighthead had Lowe or Cusack been fit.

Glasgow have been playing well but it has to be said that noone would pick Kellock ahead of Hamilton or send in Prygos to face Weepu.
Had Jackson's kicking been better I could agree with sending him out at 10.
Finally, would you really like to cap Dunbar & Horne against Nonu and Smith?

I think we'll see the new Glasgow guys shine in this tour but I can understand why Robinson would be hesitant to send them out against the all blacks.

Is an uncapped, in form Dunbar at 12 going to be any worse than an out of form, three capped Matt Scott? At least Dunbar has shown a willingness and ability to tackle this season. Rennie's been out of form too, so why not play Barclay, or even Fusaro? Why play Ford when Hall has been much better for Glasgow? I'm not being flippant here, what's the point in players doing their best if form isn't rewarded, or lack of form punished?

by Imperialbigdave Tue 06 Nov 2012, 11:59 am

I dont think its as edinburgh biased as it looks at first glance. Theres only 3 in the pack, and had there been any other option at tighthead, only 2. A fair reflection.

In the backs, who else could you pick. Hogg and Lamont aside, Glasgows best backs are either injured, uncapped or NSQ. I really cannot see any reasonable alternative backline we could have played. Factor in the summer tour performers and I think thats a reasonable selection.

by Imperialbigdave Tue 06 Nov 2012, 12:03 pm

Captain_Sensible wrote:
RuggerRadge2611 wrote:
Captain_Sensible wrote:Does anyone else find it ridiculous that Edinburgh are propping up the bottom of the Rabo, and yet provide 6 starts to this team, while Glasgow are near the top and only provide 3?

It seems that AR's 'fit and on form' selection criteria has gone out the window. I know we have limited options in some areas but I'm still disappointed with this selection. We're going to get tanked.

Can't really argue with his selection. Glasgow would have almost certainly provided a tighthead had Lowe or Cusack been fit.

Glasgow have been playing well but it has to be said that noone would pick Kellock ahead of Hamilton or send in Prygos to face Weepu.
Had Jackson's kicking been better I could agree with sending him out at 10.
Finally, would you really like to cap Dunbar & Horne against Nonu and Smith?

I think we'll see the new Glasgow guys shine in this tour but I can understand why Robinson would be hesitant to send them out against the all blacks.

Is an uncapped, in form Dunbar at 12 going to be any worse than an out of form, three capped Matt Scott? At least Dunbar has shown a willingness and ability to tackle this season. Rennie's been out of form too, so why not play Barclay, or even Fusaro? Why play Ford when Hall has been much better for Glasgow? I'm not being flippant here, what's the point in players doing their best if form isn't rewarded, or lack of form punished?

Have you watched Edinburgh, or just assuming results == individual form. Two of the three players you have mentioned have been on form. Saraceens game aside, Rennie has been his usual self all season. He turned the tide of the scarlets game on three occasions only for teammates to man sausage up his good work. Matt Scott has also been in fine form, his suicide pass vs scarlets aside. Dunbar on the other hand hasnt hit the form he showed last season... The only one i agree with is Ford, but if Dougie Hall is the only alternative, id stick with Ford and hope that his Darts come good.

edit: thats not to say Dunbars out of form, but he got into international contention because of the final six-odd games of last season where he was immense. He has not replicated that to nearly the same extent this season.

by RuggerRadge2611 Tue 06 Nov 2012, 12:10 pm

I thought Scot played very well in the summer tour to Australia and the PI's. In addition Nick DeLuca has been one of the only Edinburgh players to be playing well at all this season. It seems Denton has paid the price fairly or unfairly however you want to look at it for Edinburgh's poor form.

I also thought Barclay and Rennie have both played well. Hard to pick between the 2 of them. Rennie hasn't done enough to merit being dropped and Barclay hasn't done enough to merit being picked.

As for Ford and Hall I won't even entertain that argument. Ford is a far superior player in almost every dynamic. Hall has made less mistakes this season, but I don't think thats enough to give him the nod over Ford who has been one of Scotlands best players for a while now and to my Knowlege has never let anyone down whilst playing for Scotland.

The following Glasgow players can consider themselves unlucky -
Barclay

The rest have reasons for being behind their Edinburgh counterparts.
Jackson - Kicking better would have gotten him the nod over Laidlaw IMO.
Horne & Dunbar - I wouldn't hand them their 1st caps against the All Blacks.
Seymore - Visser is the better player.

Lets not forget a lot of the Glasgow contingent are injured. I'm not sure why but there seems to be an expanding rift between the East and West coast fans..... normally only visable at XMAS time.... Sad

by **RDW** Tue 06 Nov 2012, 12:11 pm

Imperialbigdave wrote:

Have you watched Edinburgh, or just assuming results == individual form. Two of the three players you have mentioned have been on form. Saraceens game aside, Rennie has been his usual self all season. He turned the tide of the scarlets game on three occasions only for teammates to man sausage up his good work. Matt Scott has also been in fine form, his suicide pass vs scarlets aside. Dunbar on the other hand hasnt hit the form he showed last season... The only one i agree with is Ford, but if Dougie Hall is the only alternative, id stick with Ford and hope that his Darts come good.

edit: thats not to say Dunbars out of form, but he got into international contention because of the final six-odd games of last season where he was immense. He has not replicated that to nearly the same extent this season.

Agreed - a few people getting carried away here. Rennie hasn't been out of form at all - he's not stood out as much in some games, but had a stormer against the Scarlets.

As for Scott, well he has stood out in all the games he's played! Looks fit and strong and ha been making some impressive breaks.

And as has been mentioned Hall over Ford just isn't an option.

Fozzy, Barclay and Dunbar are good players but Fozzy and Dunbar haven't yet replicated last year's end of year form, and Barclay hasn't been setting the heather on fire either.

by Captain_Sensible Tue 06 Nov 2012, 12:14 pm

Re Ford, we've been waiting for his darts to come good for years. I'd bench him to to let him know he's not untouchable. He's been consistently inconsistent for Scotland for a few years now, and needs to apply himself to reach the heights we all know he's capable of. Oh for a fit and on form MacArthur - that would really make things interesting.

I can see where you're going with your points on Rennie and Scott, maybe I was a bit too harsh on them. I'm glad that Denton's been benched, as he really hasn't been all that good this season.

by **RDW** Tue 06 Nov 2012, 12:16 pm

Denton hasn't looked interested for Edinburgh all season until the Scarlets game, where he obviously realised his place was under threat and had a really good game.

Let's hope he's learned his lesson!

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