Scotland vs All Blacks @ 2.30pm Sunday 11 Nov Murrayfield

by cp10 Wed 24 Oct 2012, 10:09 am

First topic message reminder :

Scotland team:

Backs: S Hogg, S Lamont, N De Luca, M Scott, T Visser, G Laidlaw, M Blair

Forwards: Grant, Ford, Cross, Gray, Hamilton, Strokosch, Rennie, Brown (capt).

Subs: S Lawson, A Jacobsen, K Traynor, A Kellock, D Denton, H Pyrgos, R Jackson, M Evans

All Black squad :

15 - Israel Dagg
14 - Cory Jane
13 - Ben Smith
12 - Tamati Ellison
11 - Julian Savea
10 - Daniel Carter
9 - Piri Weepu

8 - Victor Vito
7 - Richie McCaw (c)
6 - Adam Thomson
5 - Sam Whitelock
4 - Luke Romano
3 - Owen Franks
2 - Andrew Hore
1 - Wyatt Crockett

Reserves:
16 - Dane Coles
17 - Tony Woodcock
18 - Ben Franks
19 - Ali Williams
20 - Sam Cane
21 - Tawera Kerr-Barlow
22 - Beauden Barrett
23 - Ma'a Nonu

Two new caps : Kerr-Barlow and Dane Coles

by Imperialbigdave Tue 06 Nov 2012, 12:20 pm

agree re Denton. Needed a kick up the bahookie, hopefully that was it.

by **RDW** Tue 06 Nov 2012, 12:33 pm

Big picture for him - if he's not picked for Scotland, he won't be picked for the Lions.

I think Denton offers a lot more for Scotland than Strokosh does or ever will, but you can see why Denton has been left out the starting team. Still think he should have started though!

by beshocked Tue 06 Nov 2012, 12:40 pm

Foolish IMO to play KB out of position. You don't play your best player and captain out of position unless you are Andy Robinson!

by **NeilyBroon** Tue 06 Nov 2012, 12:41 pm

I think Robbo's picked a fairly solid squad. Not sure there should be as many Edinburgh players but as said above, individuals shouldn't be punished for the teams performance if they're performing week-in week-out. Not a fan of Stroks but Dentons not done enough to be selected for the starting XV, it's good that this has been made clear. I suspect we'll be hammered but I'm still looking forward to the game! My prediction is Sco 10-35 NZ, I think Kelly Brown and NDL will lead a good defensive effort but we'll get knackered after the first half from the constant NZ attack.

by Tramptastic Tue 06 Nov 2012, 12:44 pm

In regards to Denton, does anyone remember how Richie Gray's first AI's were pretty good and then he lost form and didn't play much in the subsequent six nations? Everybody seems to disregard this when it comes to attacking Denton's form and the point is he's not a bad player at all, he's quite fantastic in fact but it is just unfortunate he's only had a couple of good games. I believe he will have a stormer coming off the bench for the last 20minutes, like sean lamont did against Wales in the 2011 six nations

by Tramptastic Tue 06 Nov 2012, 12:46 pm

Aye NeilyBroon has hit it on the head - It's good Robbo has identified that Denton has been off form and is trying to correct the matter by punishing him AND giving him a chance off the bench! It doesn't mean he's terrible though *cough* 21st Century *cough*

by Imperialbigdave Tue 06 Nov 2012, 12:51 pm

Tramptastic wrote:Aye NeilyBroon has hit it on the head - It's good Robbo has identified that Denton has been off form and is trying to correct the matter by punishing him AND giving him a chance off the bench! It doesn't mean he's terrible though *cough* 21st Century *cough*

even if the pro teams were the other way round all edinburgh players would still be worthless in his eyes.

by Tramptastic Tue 06 Nov 2012, 12:54 pm

Seen as he is an adamant objector of the National Team does that mean we won't hear from 21st for at least a month? Or are the pro teams playing during this time aswell?

by **RDW** Tue 06 Nov 2012, 12:57 pm

Tramptastic wrote: does that mean we won't hear from 21st for at least a month?

You can only hope! Whistle

Edinbrugh-Glasgow banter on here has started to cross the line recently into just slagging and WUMS and he's been one of the main culprits

by **NeilyBroon** Tue 06 Nov 2012, 1:01 pm

also by this logic, Richie Gray shouldn't be on the team because Sale are having an absolute shocker! Glad Bryan Redpath didn't end up on the Scotland coaching squad!

by funnyExiledScot Tue 06 Nov 2012, 1:03 pm

I'm surprised that both Hamilton and Gray are fully fit. If there are not, then their selections are a huge mistake. Hopefully they are, as a half fit boiler room won't cut it against the ABs.

Slightly surprised that Laidlaw has the nod over Jackson, but not a big deal.

I agree that I'd have picked Denton at 8 and Brown at 6, rather than playing Brown out of position, but AR is a big fan of Strokosch and Strokosch was excellent in the summer, and by all accounts having a strong season. This is a backrow picked for the breakdown.

It's a pretty strong squad, and hopefully those a tad unlucky to miss out, Barclay, Horne, Dunbar and Seymour, can get a game against Tonga.

by funnyExiledScot Tue 06 Nov 2012, 1:14 pm

On the Edinburgh/Glasgow bias, I do think there are a couple of Glasgow players who have a case actually.

Whilst both Hamilton and Gray are better players when fully fit, neither are (to my knowledge), and Kellock is having a fine season. I think he can count himself unlucky, especially given how big a help he could be to the lineout.

Similarly I think Barclay is a touch unlucky to miss out to Rennie, again on balance.

At fly half Laidlaw has been poor this season, and Jackson again going better on form. I'd also say the same of Horne vs Scott (although I believe Scott to be the better player and long term option at 12) and Dunbar vs NDL (although NDL has not played badly this season).

Seymour probably ought to be ahead of S Lamont on form, but that's a Glasgow vs Glasgow issue.

All of the above are very close calls, and I think ultimately AR will have gone with combinations. Hopefully we'll see how the Glasgow midfield gets on against Tonga.

One Edinburgh pick I really will defend though is Ford. He may not be playing well so far this season, but on a bad day with his shoe laces tied together he is still a better bet for Scotland than Hall. I remember Hall in a Scotland jersey under Hadden. His throwing used to fall apart even quicker than Ford's does now, and his contribution in the loose was laughable.

by Cryptoyourisan Tue 06 Nov 2012, 1:16 pm

I don't agree with Brown at number-eight or the argument that inexperience should stop us from capping players against the All Blacks. Let's be honest, we will lose by at least 25 points so having an experienced team needlessly slaughtered is fairly pointless. I'm not suggesting we put out a second-string team - were that even possible - but the South Africa game is a much more realistic prospect. We should be beating Tonga but can't chance it so we need to put out a strong team for that game.

I really hope the Edinburgh guys who are in 'fine form' despite the team being embarrassingly poor of late have a good game. Unfortunately due to Robinson's inclination for pragmatism over development, I believe we'll remain guessing about the potential of a lot of players for another week whilst having things we already know, e.g. de Luca is mince, Ford can't throw and Lamont isn't actually good defensively, confirmed.

by funnyExiledScot Tue 06 Nov 2012, 1:31 pm

It's all good and well just slating players, but it's all about how they rate against the alternatives. AR has to pick someone, he can't just spit out the dummy and say everyone is crap and therefore Scotland aren't going to field a team.

We know Ford has issues with his throwing under pressure, but who else do you suggest? Hall can't throw either, and adds nothing like as much in the loose as Ford, and whilst Lawson is lively in the loose and throws pretty well, he's underpowered and attracts penalties like they are going out of fashion.

You may well think that De Luca is mince, but the only other option in the squad is Dunbar, who played well at 12 last season, but hasn't had a stormer this season at Glasgow in the 13 jersey. I think there's little to call between the two, and assume that AR went with De Luca (a) because he played well in the summer, and (b) because he's proven he can link well with Scott and Visser. I'd have been fine with Dunbar at 13, but won't lose sleep over NDL playing on Sunday.

Re: Lamont, again, I'd have had no issue had either Evans or Seymour been picked on that wing. I suspect AR wants his ball carrying abilities to rescue sloppy ball (something we excel in), and try and win the contact with the Kiwi backs, most of whom have better breakdown skills than our forwards. Re: his defence, I agree that he's been exposed in the past. Tends to opt for the Hollywood tackle rather than the effective one, and no doubt Conrad Smith et al will look to expose that. He can also be a fearsome tackler though, and the ABs will be physical, so I can see merit in his selection.

by bsando Tue 06 Nov 2012, 1:33 pm

I had a feeling strockers would be in the starting lineup and I think he deserves to be. I think AR has probably got a good plan and I bet that it will be based on defence and getting the basics right, ie good line outs, solid scrum and set piece. Conservatism is what we need this sunday, have to prevent NZ from cutting loose. I think Blair said it in an interview, you can't let NZ get early points or else their confidence just sores and that is that.

2010 i think several try's came from breaks on the fringes so defence has to deal with ABs wide ball. Scotland will be struggling to catch Jane or Gear if they manage to break. Hopefully AB's will field Guildford, he's not as good in my opinion.

I'd say we should be defending wide when NZ have possession and committing large numbers to rucks when in possession to secure quick ball. Visser and Lamont can come in and I'd just keep it fairly narrow all game, avoiding any isolated players. Pretty boring rugby but the only way I can see Scotland winning really. If Scotland can keep possession in NZ half and force penalties we may just be able to frustrate them enough into making some bad decisions.

What are everyone else's thoughts on how Scotland should be aiming to play this weekend?

by Tramptastic Tue 06 Nov 2012, 1:46 pm

Keep it simple, hit up with the big players like gray, hamilton, ford, cross, rennie and brown and repeat until all blacks get sucked in, space develops and then spread it wide to visser or hogg. Essentially the old Edinburgh plan whch worked a dream last season as it was uncomplicated and gave space to the backs - very important against the all blacks - if we get in their half (IF) and are presented with points we have to take them. No kicking for touch with ford being dubious with his throws, just take the 3 points and move on.

by funnyExiledScot Tue 06 Nov 2012, 1:47 pm

The key will be reacting well to turnovers, as that's when NZ are at their most deadly, and it's something Edinburgh have been truly awful at this season.

I want to see us trust our ball retention skills as well. Kick the ball away needlessly and badly and Dagg will cut us to ribbons. If we have to kick, the ball needs to reach the stands, or the chase needs to be on top of the catcher and prevent a counter. Mike Blair has a big role here, as Laidlaw isn't the greatest of kickers. We need Blair to play well, and use his tactical nous.

We have good attacking players on the pitch, and whilst I don't advocate an Edinburgh style miracle pass tactic, we ought not to be afraid to use the likes of Hogg and Visser on the ball as much as possible. Yes, they may turn us over and counter-attack, so concentration is key, but we can't stuff the ball up the jumper for 80 minutes and expect to win. We have to be prepared to attack and make good use of the ball when we have it.

by bsando Tue 06 Nov 2012, 1:49 pm

Tottally agree Tramptastic! I just noticed an article on the BBC. AR is quoted saying "We will really need to start the game well and keep it simple" so I think you may be spot on Tramp

by **RDW** Tue 06 Nov 2012, 1:52 pm

We're not gonna win this game by kicking penalties so we need to get some tries at some point. If we score tries early on and keep the scoreboard ticking over you never know!

Anyone got some odds for the game yet?

by Tramptastic Tue 06 Nov 2012, 1:56 pm

Paddypower has us down for 16/1 which i might put a fiver on (seen as my student ticket was so godd*mn cheap!)... might go look at the odds for visser to score a try

by IanBru Tue 06 Nov 2012, 2:00 pm

Hmm... might be worth a cheeky tenner on Scotland on Sunday.

Frankly if we're that lucky, I'll also put a bet on having a threesome with Megan Fox and the tasty one off Countdown.

by Tramptastic Tue 06 Nov 2012, 2:01 pm

can't find any odds on visser yet, but will keep an eye out!

by ghad Tue 06 Nov 2012, 2:09 pm

IanBru - is that the best threesome you could come up with? I thought Megan fox was currently up the duff?

No real complaints about the team. Although think I would have preferred KB to start from 6 with Denton starting. Hoping Hamilton and Gray fully fit.

Congrats to Pyrgos on the bench. Hope his box kicking up to scratch if he comes on.

by AsLongAsBut100ofUs Tue 06 Nov 2012, 2:32 pm

RuggerRadge2611 wrote: I'm not sure why but there seems to be an expanding rift between the East and West coast fans..... normally only visable at XMAS time....

Feic that, Radge, lets get the gloves off early this year boxing

No more Scottish Mr Nice Guys, lets bring some edge to it all!!

Are you going on Sunday? Fancy a Ale

?

by RuggerRadge2611 Tue 06 Nov 2012, 2:48 pm

I am mate. Fancy meeting up in Teuchters post game?

PM me your number and we can get things arranged!

Be careful with the gloves coming off. Us Scottish guys will end up with 20 page epic threads like those drama queen Irish fans!

by **George Carlin** Tue 06 Nov 2012, 3:27 pm

I am already starting to enter the Scotland twilight zone, whereby I become misty eyed for the days of Irvine and Rutherford, then frantically worried about how much of a horsing we will sustain, then blase about how bad it can possibly be, then indifferent, hoping that the boys will miraculously take me by surprise. At the moment, I am in a fairly happy, faintly damp and optimistic place. This will dispel later in the week when I find out that they've chosen Savea, Jane, Dagg and Carter just to irritate me.

Am now drinking tea that I don't like and rocking up and down slightly. Why do we even play the ABs at all? Why can't Ireland play them another 3 times instead?

by **George Carlin** Tue 06 Nov 2012, 3:28 pm

Incidentally, I just don't think that there's any real Reekie/Weegie animosity. Seriously? Some good sledging is to be had, but that's fine for me. I'll take either Scottish team to win any day of the week.

by AsLongAsBut100ofUs Tue 06 Nov 2012, 4:14 pm

George Carlin wrote:Incidentally, I just don't think that there's any real Reekie/Weegie animosity. Seriously? Some good sledging is to be had, but that's fine for me. I'll take either Scottish team to win any day of the week.

+1. Too many brothers getting a bit namby-pamby about the banter - man up!! Wink

by Tramptastic Tue 06 Nov 2012, 4:24 pm

But we get modded for manning up Sad

by AsLongAsBut100ofUs Tue 06 Nov 2012, 4:52 pm

by aucklandlaurie Tue 06 Nov 2012, 5:47 pm

Robinson needs both Strokosh and Denton on the field and even better at the same time for as long as possible.

But what would I know from 10,000 miles away.

by AsLongAsBut100ofUs Tue 06 Nov 2012, 5:51 pm

aucklandlaurie wrote:
Robinson needs both Strokosh and Denton on the field and even better at the same time for as long as possible.

But what would I know from 10,000 miles away.

Apparently quite a lot! clap

The good news is that Richie Gray passes his fitness test this afternoon and is certain to play thumbsup

by Scot Abroad Tue 06 Nov 2012, 5:51 pm

Injury update: Gray has passed his medical and will be fit to play on Sunday

Braveheart

by aucklandlaurie Tue 06 Nov 2012, 5:59 pm

Thats excellant news, I was starting to get a bit of a hollow feeling about this game without Gray. Gray needs this game and scottish rugby needs him to have this game.

Not withstanding the result of this game it will be good to compare the young AB locks, (presuming that williams and Romano dont play) with the performance of Gray.

by **RDW** Tue 06 Nov 2012, 6:25 pm

When's the AB team announced?

by aucklandlaurie Tue 06 Nov 2012, 6:30 pm

RDW
We dont know but Wynne Gray posted this from edinburgh about two hours ago.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/article.cfm?c_id=4&objectid=10845604

by **RDW** Tue 06 Nov 2012, 6:39 pm

Quite a respectful article that -much better than the one published by that guy earlier in the week saying nz would hump everyone!

by aucklandlaurie Tue 06 Nov 2012, 6:50 pm

RDW

We have a lot of rugby jounalists in New Zealand, and it would be pretty boring if they all wrote the same thing.

The Herald alone has three writers in Edinburgh as we speak, all with varying/diverse opinion when it comes to rugby, and not just the game but also the politics of the game.

by **George Carlin** Tue 06 Nov 2012, 7:40 pm

RDW is referring to the spectacularly facile and juvenille piece from Chris Rattue. Tiny little man - his twinkie is so small and he's so desperately precious that he even blocked the Herald comments column about that article to prevent people telling him how moronic it was.

Scotland will, at the very least, be a decent hit out for any side in the world. We beat the Boks in 2010 (having come incredibly close the previous year) and of course have now won two against the Aussies on the bounce.

Rattue's misguided drivel seemed to focus on the fact that Scotland were not worth playing but apparently those Pacific Islanders (who really need the halo of the ABs) were. Ignoring entirely the fact that the Scots were the only team in recent memory who made a full PI tour.

Keen readers may have worked out that I like Gray much better.

by AsLongAsBut100ofUs Tue 06 Nov 2012, 7:44 pm

George Carlin wrote:RDW is referring to the spectacularly facile and juvenille piece from Chris Rattue. Tiny little man - his twinkie is so small and he's so desperately precious that he even blocked the Herald comments column about that article to prevent people telling him how moronic it was.

Scotland will, at the very least, be a decent hit out for any side in the world. We beat the Boks in 2010 (having come incredibly close the previous year) and of course have now won two against the Aussies on the bounce.

Rattue's misguided drivel seemed to focus on the fact that Scotland were not worth playing but apparently those Pacific Islanders (who really need the halo of the ABs) were. Ignoring entirely the fact that the Scots were the only team in recent memory who made a full PI tour.

Keen readers may have worked out that I like Gray much better.

These two points alone are enough to cause me to explode - what a prat!

by aucklandlaurie Tue 06 Nov 2012, 7:49 pm

You guys may not believe me, but on New Zealand television this morning Scotland has been described by Ian Foster as the only Northern hemisphere team to have an unbeaten tour of the Southern Hemisphere for years.

On the Rattue subject, sometimes it pays to look for another message in his articles..

by **RDW** Tue 06 Nov 2012, 7:55 pm

Do elaborate?

by Scot Abroad Tue 06 Nov 2012, 8:00 pm

Nearly invisible would be an accurate description of coverage of the All Blacks since they arrived in Scotland, but it hasn't had an adverse effect on ticket sales, with Murrayfield expected to sell out on Remembrance Day.

Only single seat tickets are available for a test that will be played on Sunday afternoon (Monday morning NZ time).

That's a big improvement on the last time the All Blacks visited Edinburgh: their 49-3 win in 2010 was played in front of 56,807 fans.

Tests between the two countries are few and far between, just four since 2002, but the predictability of the result and a cold night two years ago resulted in a poor turnout.

This time the famous ground is expected to reach its 67,144 capacity.

The national side is back in favour with the public after a disappointing World Cup campaign and Six Nations in 2011, and big wing Tim Visser is being touted as a superstar.

June's upset win over Australia in Newcastle and subsequent success against Fiji and Samoa has ignited some hope that they will at least compete with the All Blacks.

However, it has not stopped the local press being dominated by other sports, namely football, despite the All Blacks being in town.

There was a postage stamp-sized photo in the Daily Mail on Sunday of some players walking down Edinburgh's Golden Mile and since then nearly nothing.

The Scotsman ran a sizeable story on Ali Williams on Monday, but the Edinburgh Evening News managed two full pages of local rugby coverage without a mention of the men in black.

To be fair, the All Blacks have not done a lot of training as they recover from the long flight over, while the Scots' first public appearance was limited to 20 minutes of television and no interviews.

Coverage is expected to ramp up at the back end of the week with the naming of the two sides.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/all-blacks/7914674/Scottish-media-ignore-All-Blacks-before-test

Laugh

by aucklandlaurie Tue 06 Nov 2012, 8:05 pm

RDW_Scotland wrote:Do elaborate?

Saimone Taumoepeau etc etc..

by **RDW** Tue 06 Nov 2012, 9:02 pm

aucklandlaurie wrote:
RDW_Scotland wrote:Do elaborate?

Saimone Taumoepeau etc etc..

by aucklandlaurie Tue 06 Nov 2012, 9:06 pm

RDW_Scotland wrote:
aucklandlaurie wrote:
RDW_Scotland wrote:Do elaborate?

Saimone Taumoepeau etc etc..

Really? have you read the article?

by TJ1 Tue 06 Nov 2012, 9:16 pm

bsando wrote:I had a feeling strockers would be in the starting lineup and I think he deserves to be. I think AR has probably got a good plan and I bet that it will be based on defence and getting the basics right, ie good line outs, solid scrum and set piece. Conservatism is what we need this sunday,

"snip"

What are everyone else's thoughts on how Scotland should be aiming to play this weekend?

To me a typical crap Robinson selection. Laidlaw is completely out of sorts, Lamont is not the best winger we have. wrong back row. Its a conservative team to try not to get stuffed. Its a negative selection

He should be playing Scotlands best team of in form players.

I would rather scotland attacked and were beaten 50:14 than defended and got beat 30 nil.

Can we please get rid of Robinson. He is ruining the best generation of Scotland players I have seen in decades.

by **RDW** Tue 06 Nov 2012, 9:23 pm

aucklandlaurie wrote:
RDW_Scotland wrote:
aucklandlaurie wrote:
RDW_Scotland wrote:Do elaborate?

Saimone Taumoepeau etc etc..

Really? have you read the article?

You're gonna have to spell it out! His main point seems to be that the pacific islands are neglected in rugby terms, and that a tour to Europe is a waste...

by aucklandlaurie Tue 06 Nov 2012, 9:33 pm

So we can look forward to Scotland supporting New Zealand at the next IRB meeting when, New Zealand runs the remit again seeking that players , who have played for a tier one nations are allowed to return and play for their Pacific Islands of heritage or for any tier 2 nation?

What gets me is that countries in the Northern hemisphere are so good at telling the Pacific Island nations what is best for them, and ignoring what the Pacific Island nations are seeking.

Hopefully Scotland review their stance.

by **RDW** Tue 06 Nov 2012, 9:37 pm

Have to say this has come completely out of the blue and I'm not sure what the history to this is!

Are you saying Scotland are against allowing pacific island players going back to their home nations?

Which Northern Hemisphere teams are telling PI teams what to do?

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