Scotland vs All Blacks @ 2.30pm Sunday 11 Nov Murrayfield

I really cannot understand anyone who can support the notion of players turning out for two different international sides. In any sport.

Citing examples of it happening, in rugby or otherwise, do not strengthen the argument.

I can fully understand players having several options as regards who they turn out for, but once the decision is made to turn out for a country, in any sport, that should be it.

I will give Rattue credit for not solely pointing the finger at the NH sides using their veto to stamp out this stupid idea. He also points the finger at NZ for their selfish trial and error selection process, and for never playing in the PIs. Where he misses the point is that ultimately it's down to the players to take responsibility for their own actions. Individual responsibility and accountability is something that seems to be diminishing in rugby (how many times do coaches or refs get blamed rather than the players actually making the mistakes??). If these players feel that they are ABs, then choose the ABs. If they feel Tongan, then pick Tonga. If they want as much fame and glory as they can get, and don't want to play for a less successful rugby side, then pick the ABs, but don't come crying back when the ABs discard them.

Imagine if Jim Hamilton decided now that he wanted to play for England (and frankly they'd probably use him). It would make a complete mockery of international rugby if players could just pick and choose who they can play for (or is Rattue suggesting a special rule for the PIs?).

His comments on Scottish rugby are poorly written and badly made, but it's completely true that our record against them is awful. So is he suggesting that Scotland give up and the ABs not bother playing them? On that basis the ABs should really only bother playing Australia, SA, France and (once a decade) England. Not sure how that helps bring forward new rugby nations - which he seems to feel strongly about - or frankly make much sense at all. If teams only played sides of an equal level, sport would be pretty pointless.

My lasting impression of Rattue is that's he's both frustrated and confused. He clearly wants the PIs to thrive and international rugby to be open to new entrants, but then doesn't have a clear or sensible idea of how to achieve it. As a result, he just spits out the dummy and insults Scottish rugby. Don't worry, we can take it. If we can live with Guscott on the BBC, we can live with anything.

why are we wasting time and effort on this "journalist"

He's thrown some words at a page and is looking for a reaction. Poor journalisim at it's worse!

funnyExiledScot wrote:I really cannot understand anyone who can support the notion of players turning out for two different international sides. In any sport.

Citing examples of it happening, in rugby or otherwise, do not strengthen the argument.

I can fully understand players having several options as regards who they turn out for, but once the decision is made to turn out for a country, in any sport, that should be it.

I will give Rattue credit for not solely pointing the finger at the NH sides using their veto to stamp out this stupid idea. He also points the finger at NZ for their selfish trial and error selection process, and for never playing in the PIs. Where he misses the point is that ultimately it's down to the players to take responsibility for their own actions. Individual responsibility and accountability is something that seems to be diminishing in rugby (how many times do coaches or refs get blamed rather than the players actually making the mistakes??). If these players feel that they are ABs, then choose the ABs. If they feel Tongan, then pick Tonga. If they want as much fame and glory as they can get, and don't want to play for a less successful rugby side, then pick the ABs, but don't come crying back when the ABs discard them.

Imagine if Jim Hamilton decided now that he wanted to play for England (and frankly they'd probably use him). It would make a complete mockery of international rugby if players could just pick and choose who they can play for (or is Rattue suggesting a special rule for the PIs?).

His comments on Scottish rugby are poorly written and badly made, but it's completely true that our record against them is awful. So is he suggesting that Scotland give up and the ABs not bother playing them? On that basis the ABs should really only bother playing Australia, SA, France and (once a decade) England. Not sure how that helps bring forward new rugby nations - which he seems to feel strongly about - or frankly make much sense at all. If teams only played sides of an equal level, sport would be pretty pointless.

My lasting impression of Rattue is that's he's both frustrated and confused. He clearly wants the PIs to thrive and international rugby to be open to new entrants, but then doesn't have a clear or sensible idea of how to achieve it. As a result, he just spits out the dummy and insults Scottish rugby. Don't worry, we can take it. If we can live with Guscott on the BBC, we can live with anything.

Man you are good at this counter argument stuff? What do you do for a living again?

yeah i agree that players shouldn't be allowed to switch between the bigger nations but i don't see any harm between someone switching from a top country like australia, nz, england, scotland etc and going to a much lower nation say poland or someone of that level. They should only be allowed to play after so many years of not being capped by the top tier nation. I think this would help to boost the smaller emerging nations and help to spread rugby around the world or do people want it just to stay locked in with the top nations?

The difficulty would be the definition of a tier 2 nation - if you use the rankings, Scotland would have been close to a teir 3 recently - They flex and flow and would be up to legal changes and ranglings. I personally think it needs funding to grow the game in the developing nations as well as TV - the odd retired player is imo unlikly to make a blind bit of difference


Also, the fact that Scotland could be described as a tier 2 nation (rankings, money, players etc) does that mean we can pinch all the retired Ozzies.

Dan Parks - come on down!

Be careful up on that high horse lads! Scotland benefitted from (hooker) John Allan’s services at the end of his career with South Africa. I think he played about 8 games for you guys.

On the subject of Rattue’s article, if I were Kelly Brown I would rip out the last three sentences from the article and take it onto the pitch. After NZ have performed their haka, he should loudly proclaim to his players what Rattue thinks of them.

Then screw up the piece of paper and hurl it to the floor in disgust.

Did John Allan not play for Scotland (where he was born) before he then went on to play for South Africa?

Hound_of_Harrow wrote:Be careful up on that high horse lads! Scotland benefitted from (hooker) John Allan’s services at the end of his career with South Africa. I think he played about 8 games for you guys.

Who??

Hound_of_Harrow wrote:
On the subject of Rattue’s article, if I were Kelly Brown I would rip out the last three sentences from the article and take it onto the pitch. After NZ have performed their haka, he should loudly proclaim to his players what Rattue thinks of them.

Then screw up the piece of paper and hurl it to the floor in disgust.

Well we’ve covered a lot here haven’t we, so in terms of conversation points, here are my thoughts:

• The team looks as good as we could have hoped for, considering the injuries. I understand the view of some fans regarding the Glasgow players not being involved when as a team they are clearly in far better form that Edinburgh, but as has been mentioned before I wouldn’t fancy chucking some of the lads in for their first test against the ABs. If we’re doing well against Tonga then I could see them coming off the bench in that match. That is unless of course we’ve had a nightmare against the ABs and RSA.

• Players, who have a choice, should pick a nation and that’s the end of it, once you’ve declared your allegiance to one country you shouldn’t be able to move around when you’re no longer good enough for them. I get that we should look to help develop rugby in the PIs as well as other countries but I don’t agree that it should be done in this manner.

• The journalist lad who penned that lovely article, does make some valid points about us not being all that good (that must have taken hours of research) and this match being mainly financially driven, is all true, but doesn’t mean we can’t enjoy it. From a Scottish perspective, it’s always nice to test yourself against the best and from a NZ point of view, who doesn’t enjoy watching their team score tries and dominate the opposition!

I hope I'm not replicating something that's already been covered elsewhere; but does anyone know the exact scores we need to make the top 8 for the RWC draw?

I read somewhere that we need to beat the Tongans and the Welsh and the Irish need to beat Argentina. For us to squeeze into eighth at the expense of the Argies. Is that correct?

Or we need to beat the Saffers?

nickj wrote:I hope I'm not replicating something that's already been covered elsewhere; but does anyone know the exact scores we need to make the top 8 for the RWC draw?

I read somewhere that we need to beat the Tongans and the Welsh and the Irish need to beat Argentina. For us to squeeze into eighth at the expense of the Argies. Is that correct?

Or we need to beat the Saffers?

Tell you what - this thread has definitely had plenty of topics!

From memory we had to beat SA or NZ and hope the Argies get nothing from the rugby championship and the Autumn tests.

So I think it is a bit of a long shot, but someone more learned might be able to provide some numbers!

Not enough topics being covered in this thread yet, so

NZ tui beer vs Scottish Deuchars IPA
NZ maori vs Scottish Ned
NZ sheep vs Scottish sheep
NZ potany vs Scottish Salmon

Ooh I did like my Tui!

L&P versus Irn Bru? Actually there's defo only one winner there!

Aw come on now Risky, there's beer better than Deuchar's! Innis and Gunn is probably the best in the world, and the Brew Dog stuff is explosive!

Basically if Ireland lose to SA and Arg by 15+, and Scotland lose to SA and NZ but beat Tonga by 15+, Scotland and Arg get the last two top 8 slots...

RDW_Scotland wrote:Ooh I did like my Tui!

L&P versus Irn Bru? Actually there's defo only one winner there!

Aye but if you chuck in Monteith's Winter or Summer Ale, then there is a big fight on your hands.

As for the article.....I thought it was quite funny.

However, watching Mealamu's brief interview on the BBC website does slightly unnerve me. His eyes show some kind of payback from the Australia draw.

I do find the NZ press' reaction to the NZ draw quite funny. They keep going on about how it was a shambles, an embarrassment, the team massively under performed - we would be delighted with a draw against Australia!

RDW_Scotland wrote:I do find the NZ press' reaction to the NZ draw quite funny. They keep going on about how it was a shambles, an embarrassment, the team massively under performed - we would be delighted with a draw against Australia!

No, we wouldn't, RDW. That would mean our current form against the Aussies is slipping.

I think that people are ignoring the key point to this thread, which is that Speight's 5 Malt Old Dark or Gold Medal Ale is vastly superior to any of that murky old toiletwater that has been mentioned above.

I was talkin to Kev in the gym today, I didnt bring up the aus game, but he and the others didnt seem too beat up about it.

Hes nowhere near as big as i expected him to be, though he was curling 50kg dumbells, and im standing next to him doing 18kg's feeling like a weed.

Riskysports wrote:Also, the fact that Scotland could be described as a tier 2 nation (rankings, money, players etc) does that mean we can pinch all the retired Ozzies.

Does that mean England could borrow a couple of scots for a few years?

RDW_Scotland wrote:

Tramptastic wrote: does that mean we won't hear from 21st for at least a month?

You can only hope!

Edinbrugh-Glasgow banter on here has started to cross the line recently into just slagging and WUMS and he's been one of the main culprits

Here we go again - another (K)Nock on Nick/Denton love in ffs !!!!!

wondered when you were going to rear your head

A massive upset in Scotland already this week...

disneychilly wrote:A massive upset in Scotland already this week...

I'm not much of a football follower but what a fantastic result, let's do a Celtic on Sunday.

disneychilly wrote:A massive upset in Scotland already this week...

aye, 21st reappeared on the bored

Getting back to the game and Robinson's selections. Now i am not usually one to stand up for AR, but i dont think he has had that many options for many of the positions in this game but the AB's game.
What scares the hell out of me is the numer of players still carrying and/ or just returning from injury: Cross, Gray, Hamilton Laidlaw , Blair, NDL and Lamont in the starting team. Evans from the bench.
When you ally this to the lack of form of Ford, Jacobsen, Traynor (not international class), Lawson (now second choice hooker at Irish) it all looks rather worrying.

Good one Rattue...

The Scottish rugby team has responded to critical comments from a Herald sportswriter by blocking a journalist from nzherald.co.nz from their full media press conference in Edinburgh yesterday.

"I was asked who I was doing the video for by the Scotland media guy and I responded, 'The Herald'," said Berry.

"Is that the same paper as that guy Rattue? I was asked. I responded yes, however I must say I've never met the guy and don't share in many of his beliefs."

"I was then told - if that's the case I'm afraid our team is not interested in talking to The Herald."

http://m.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/article.cfm?c_id=4&objectid=10845934

Also, Scotland approaching it right I reckon

Former Special Air Service (SAS) soldier Floyd Woodrow, one of the youngest men ever chosen to serve in the elite regiment and a holder of the UK's second-highest award for gallantry - the Distinguished Conduct Medal - has been called in to help motivate Scotland players before Monday's test, the first of the All Blacks' European tour.

"Belief has to be shared through the team," Robinson said.

"It's not allowing anybody to get isolated. They've got to be together. We take this challenge on as a team. You don't take it on in ones and twos. We understand we have to have a very physical mindset."

Not even William Wallace could have said that better.

"We know what the history is," Robinson said. "The key to that is to go out and stand up against New Zealand, who are the best team in the world.

http://i.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/international/7920781/Scots-look-to-war-hero-for-help-in-mind-games

I don't think that we can embarass Rattue any more than his agricultural and witless 'writing' has already embarrassed himself.

agricultural writting?

he been talking about sheep and stuff now?

Sadly I think Rattue will be chuffed at the fuss that we have kicked up. He writes what he writes in order to get a reaction, thats his goal. He has a history of being controversial and inflammatory.

Recall Wales "are the village idiots of rugby union" - that was him.

He needs to be ignored. Simple.

Let's get Stephen Jones, Rattue and George Galloway in the same room with some sandwiches and 40 beers.

I would read the transcript of that.

Surely the NZ team will be out soon?

I think the All Blacks name their team tomorrow RDW?

Sorry to bang on about the rankings, but I think its an important element to this year's Autumn internationals. I know there are some members who think it doesn't matter but is the following correct?

For Scotland to get 8th ahead of Argentina; we need to beat the Tongans and the Welsh and the Irish need to beat Argentina.

For Scotland to get 8th instead of Ireland; we need Ireland to lose to SA and Arg by 15+, and Scotland lose to SA and NZ but beat Tonga by 15+.

Of course if we beat the Saffers, we have an even better chance of taking 8th spot.

RDW_Scotland wrote:Surely the NZ team will be out soon?

Being named on Friday apparently

See below (silly thing posted twice)

goodness knows what team they are putting out.

A 2nd string coz its "only scotland" or the 1st team in a backlash to the ozzie draw??????

When the team is announced I may start sobbing in the corner!

I think it's going to be a strong team, with McCaw playing and DC at 12 - seems to be the rumours anyway

Whichever side they select it'll be a better team on paper than ours, and personally I don't think it changes anything from a Scottish perspective, or our game plan.

AR seems to be saying all the right things. His reference to players not getting isolated and working as a team perhaps sheds light on the pick of Strokosch and Brown rather than Brown and Denton. Denton can sometimes fall into the trap of trying to take on the opposition all by himself, and risk getting isolated and turned over. Both Strokosch and Brown are team men through and through.

FES, It sounds like they want to play narrow and direct. Which makes sense considering the two closest calls for NZ this year (Ireland T2, Australia T3) were both kept narrow and tight in poor conditions and the ABs struggled to respond and were ponderous and ineffective at the defensive breakdown.

nickj wrote:Sorry to bang on about the rankings, but I think its an important element to this year's Autumn internationals. I know there are some members who think it doesn't matter but is the following correct?

For Scotland to get 8th ahead of Argentina; we need to beat the Tongans and the Welsh and the Irish need to beat Argentina.

For Scotland to get 8th instead of Ireland; we need Ireland to lose to SA and Arg by 15+, and Scotland lose to SA and NZ but beat Tonga by 15+.

Of course if we beat the Saffers, we have an even better chance of taking 8th spot.

I can't remember the exact permutations (they were set out in a news article that I can no longer find), but the above sounds about right. It's worth playing around at www.rawxing.org/ranking.php I'm depressed at how much time I wasted there last night.

IanBru wrote:

nickj wrote:Sorry to bang on about the rankings, but I think its an important element to this year's Autumn internationals. I know there are some members who think it doesn't matter but is the following correct?

For Scotland to get 8th ahead of Argentina; we need to beat the Tongans and the Welsh and the Irish need to beat Argentina.

For Scotland to get 8th instead of Ireland; we need Ireland to lose to SA and Arg by 15+, and Scotland lose to SA and NZ but beat Tonga by 15+.

Of course if we beat the Saffers, we have an even better chance of taking 8th spot.

I can't remember the exact permutations (they were set out in a news article that I can no longer find), but the above sounds about right. It's worth playing around at www.rawxing.org/ranking.php I'm depressed at how much time I wasted there last night.

Cheers fella. Will have a wee play...

Riskysports wrote:Not enough topics being covered in this thread yet, so
NZ tui beer vs Scottish Deuchars IPA
NZ maori vs Scottish Ned
NZ sheep vs Scottish sheep
NZ potany vs Scottish Salmon

Oh jesus Risky, don't even get me started on Scottish salmon. I am a staunch campaigner of Salmon farming and the damage it causes to the environment and wild salmon. For those of you who know very little of this environmental catastrophe i'll just say this. Any salmon you see in Tesco's, ASDA etc only has orange flesh because they feed them manufactured colorant to make the flesh look appealing and healthy. In reality it is muddy grey in colour, Yuck!!! many more nasty facts where that one came from...

funnyExiledScot wrote:Whichever side they select it'll be a better team on paper than ours, and personally I don't think it changes anything from a Scottish perspective, or our game plan.

AR seems to be saying all the right things. His reference to players not getting isolated and working as a team perhaps sheds light on the pick of Strokosch and Brown rather than Brown and Denton. Denton can sometimes fall into the trap of trying to take on the opposition all by himself, and risk getting isolated and turned over. Both Strokosch and Brown are team men through and through.

Think you've hit the nail on the head, let's just hope that the players have the skills, patience and commitment to keep to the gameplan for the full 80 minutes - at least the damage will be limited. I fear that if we try to open up from too early phases of possession, we'll get turned over and severely punished

Found this depressing little montage on the BBC website showing just how grim the and one sided the recent meetings have been http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/20217575

All Black team for Monday morning:

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/article.cfm?c_id=4&objectid=10846127

Nonu and Ellison to cover Smith.
Smith covers dagg.
So Barrett has to cover Carter.

It always gets messy when we play a fullback at centre...

15 Israel Dagg, 14 Cory Jane, 13 Ben Smith, 12 Tamati Ellison, 11 Julian Savea, 10 Daniel Carter, 9 Piri Weepu, 8 Victor Vito, 7 Richie McCaw (captain), 6 Adam Thomson, 5 Sam Whitelock, 4 Luke Romano, 3 Owen Franks, 2 Andrew Hore, 1 Wyatt Crockett.

Reserves: Dane Coles, Tony Woodcock, Ben Franks, Ali Williams, Sam Cane, Tawera Kerr-Barlow, Beauden Barrett, Ma'a Nonu.


Haven't really heard of that centre combo -.what they like?

That's a lethal back 3

Pretty solid team like the Front five especially,plus the young guns getting a run.Weepu in winter conditions isn`t a bad option plus a back up goalkicker
midfield could be a problem if Dagg is injured early.

GLove39 wrote:Found this depressing little montage on the BBC website showing just how grim the and one sided the recent meetings have been http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/20217575

Talk about one sided, in their playing history Scotland has absolutely muntered the All blacks by kicking 9 dropped goals to New Zealands nil.

emack2 wrote:Pretty solid team like the Front five especially,plus the young guns getting a run.Weepu in winter conditions isn`t a bad option plus a back up goalkicker
midfield could be a problem if Dagg is injured early.

Yes, thats right the midfield must suffer unless he was to look at Corey Jane back to FB and keep Smith on for 80 minutes which then reduces options in attacking style. lets hope its a hard and fast track because if theres one thing that backline isnt missing, is wheels.