Scotland vs All Blacks @ 2.30pm Sunday 11 Nov Murrayfield

by cp10 Wed Oct 24, 2012 10:09 am

First topic message reminder :

Scotland team:

Backs: S Hogg, S Lamont, N De Luca, M Scott, T Visser, G Laidlaw, M Blair

Forwards: Grant, Ford, Cross, Gray, Hamilton, Strokosch, Rennie, Brown (capt).

Subs: S Lawson, A Jacobsen, K Traynor, A Kellock, D Denton, H Pyrgos, R Jackson, M Evans

All Black squad :

15 - Israel Dagg
14 - Cory Jane
13 - Ben Smith
12 - Tamati Ellison
11 - Julian Savea
10 - Daniel Carter
9 - Piri Weepu

8 - Victor Vito
7 - Richie McCaw (c)
6 - Adam Thomson
5 - Sam Whitelock
4 - Luke Romano
3 - Owen Franks
2 - Andrew Hore
1 - Wyatt Crockett

Reserves:
16 - Dane Coles
17 - Tony Woodcock
18 - Ben Franks
19 - Ali Williams
20 - Sam Cane
21 - Tawera Kerr-Barlow
22 - Beauden Barrett
23 - Ma'a Nonu

Two new caps : Kerr-Barlow and Dane Coles

by GLove39 Sun Nov 11, 2012 11:12 pm

Back from Murrayfield, throat hoarse (not from booing) and wow what a fun day.
Some sublime rugby form NZ, Dan Carter playing like his 2005 Lions trouncing days. Simply amazing and a joy to watch notworthy

And so pleasing to see Scotland scoring tries, practically fell out of the top tier of the North Stand celebrating Visser's first! Yes defence wasn't great. But NZ were always going to cut lose.
As for next week I fully expect Scotland to beat South Africa Braveheart

by Imperialbigdave Sun Nov 11, 2012 11:15 pm

21st Century Schizoid Man wrote:Right then that confirms it - you ARE Andy Robinson - please resign then !

so instead of acknowledging the point ive just put across, you ignore it and resort to your pathetic anti-Robinson dribble.

Does your bumhole ever get jealous of the crap that comes out your mouth?

by Imperialbigdave Sun Nov 11, 2012 11:16 pm

GLove39 wrote:Back from Murrayfield, throat hoarse (not from booing) and wow what a fun day.
Some sublime rugby form NZ, Dan Carter playing like his 2005 Lions trouncing days. Simply amazing and a joy to watch

And so pleasing to see Scotland scoring tries, practically fell out of the top tier of the North Stand celebrating Visser's first! Yes defence wasn't great. But NZ were always going to cut lose.
As for next week I fully expect Scotland to beat South Africa

I was probably not far away from you mate. Noise for the first try was amazing.

by 21st Century Schizoid Man Sun Nov 11, 2012 11:20 pm

Try spell check, moron, before you accuse someone of dribble ! Btw - do we have to acknowledge your posts on here ? Quite a high opinion of yourself saddo ! Erm

by Imperialbigdave Sun Nov 11, 2012 11:27 pm

21st Century Schizoid Man wrote:Try spell check, moron, before you accuse someone of dribble ! Btw - do we have to acknowledge your posts on here ? Quite a high opinion of yourself saddo !

Considering you were in the middle of debating the merits of Matt Scott with me, it seemed rather typical of you to suddenly ignore the debate as soon as facts were placed in front of you. My statement had nothing to do with my opinion of myself.

Put it this way. If Alex Salmond was debating the referendum in the parliament and someone presented some facts to him that he didnt like because they didnt fit his argument, if he were to then just start hurling insults at the person and avoid presenting a rebuttle, he would be laughed out of the room by everyone including his own party.

That is exactly what you just did. It wasnt about acknowedging me personally, I couldnt give two Poopie what you think of me because i have no respect for your opinion, it was about acknowledging the debate you had entered yourself into.

by ChequeredJersey Mon Nov 12, 2012 12:33 am

Looking at the highlights, decent showing by Scotland, I still think they will have a few surprise Lions tourists and do better this year than last despite Edinburgh's drop in form. New Zealand are just another class though.

by blackcanelion Mon Nov 12, 2012 2:56 am

Imperialbigdave wrote:
21st Century Schizoid Man wrote:No missed tackles - where did this mysterious statistic come from ? The clean break and assist were self evident in Visser's 1st try but my standards !? Are you Andy Robinson by any chance ?

From the official stats page on scrum.com If you have a more reliable source that points otherwise id love to see it, but comparing his stats with the all black centres, he was actually better value for money than his opposite number taking into account how many times they each got the ball, and Try aside, Ben smith aswell.

How you can give someone who puts in those numbers against the all blacks a 2/10 is bewildering, but then again you are the guy who argued that Visser utter crap last week, so I dont know why im surprised.

http://www.ruckingoodstats.com/context/file?id=3344

This site doesn't publish all matches, but it's pretty good on those it does publish.

by **George Carlin** Mon Nov 12, 2012 5:43 am

Lads, lads, calm.

Schizoid, I do enjoy reading you feller and I love your passion but there's no need for the brickbats. I agree that Scott was anonymous at times but against an All Blacks midfield on his first domestic cap, I would find it hard to criticise him too much.

Missed some of the first half but watched everything else. Not our fault that we woke up in the middle of a Dan Carter highlights reel - I think that most commentators admit that. The crossfield kick for the second Savea try when he had Blair and Laidlaw in his face was an astonishing piece of skill and one that deserves nothing other than open-mouthed applause.

There are definitely good points here:

1. First to score 3 against the Blackness for a year. I'll take that as a compliment. England have to thank us for exposing the fact that they do make mistakes if under pressure.

2. We already knew this, but if we don't win matches in the coming international window, it won't be because our forwards aren't good enough. Apart from Hamilton, who didn't realise that a game of rugby broke out amongst the fighting and Cross, who once again has proven that there is a genuine scrummaging gulf between himself and Murray, I thought that we contested very well indeed and the players I was worried about did fine - Gray looked busy, Dozer looked hungry, Brown was quality.

3. Visser took his chances well. I'll say no more other than I can only hope the Visser cynics realise the ground that they're standing on is sinking into the Forth.

Things that weren't so good.

1. Rennie - dislocated shoulder is not a good injury for a loose forward and will doubtless affect his foraging, even when playing again. Time for John Barclay to step up again. He can definitely do it and we're lucky to have such an able replacement.

2. Centres - sometimes things are exactly what they looked like. DeLuca and Scott weren't in great form before the game and they weren't in great form during the game either. Time to see if Robinson is open minded enough to give the Glasgow pairing a run out against the Bokke. I think that he has to. There's nowhere to hide after that performance.

3. Full back - Hogg was taught a lesson in both positional play and in where his defensive frailties are. Let's hope he's learned from it.

4. Lamont - weird, I haven't seen the stats and I'm sure he put in his usual defensive shift, but I didn't hear his name mentioned once in attack.

by **RDW** Mon Nov 12, 2012 6:34 am

Imperialbigdave - it's not worth the effort. He could have scored a hatrick on his erse and 21st would still give him a 2 - purely because he's an Edinburgh player.

I'm surprised he's had the balls to admit his pre game abuse of Denton was a mistake!

by anotherworldofpain Mon Nov 12, 2012 7:56 am

I'm going to say right now and stick by it, that I think Scotland will get very very close to south Africa. It might even be a draw.

by **George Carlin** Mon Nov 12, 2012 8:06 am

High praise coming from you AWOP.

I fully expect the lads to win by 3 scores now.

by TJ1 Mon Nov 12, 2012 8:55 am

Just watched the game on iplayer. Some good performances in there from Scotland but boy are NZ good. the speed ( especially of thought) and the skills they have, Always a support player there, great passing.

I hate the brave defeats - but that was one. took the game to NZ and had a right good go at them

The scots pack was immense. Some good bits from the backs as well but clearly still not a decent player in every position. we need a bit more in the backs for sure.

by mystiroakey Mon Nov 12, 2012 8:57 am

Yeah i enjoyed the game- i though you guys played really well.

I think the only team you can have a brave defeat against is NZ.. I hate brave defeats against other nations...

by Morgannwg Mon Nov 12, 2012 9:00 am

Seems to be the same ol' for Scotland. Their forwards look like the best pack in the 6 Nations, but defence let them down on this occassion. In the last 6 Nations it was the backs and poor handling. Now they seem to have a backline. Learn to be more clinical and I think they'll be a similar team to the Ireland of 2003-09.

by RuggerRadge2611 Mon Nov 12, 2012 9:20 am

Well, well, well.

What about that then. Scotland really played well IMO. Sure we made some mistakes, 2 kick offs leading to 2 Scrums in the middle of the park cost us 14 points. The All Blacks are hard enough to beat when you are giving them attacking scrums like that. These are mistakes that are made bareable when you see the endevour of what Scotland were trying to do, play some attacking rugby!

The Short kicks looked like a training park move with Lamont and Gray Surging up to claim them at full tilt. They didn't work but could have been very effective if they had.

Onto Individuals :
Denton looked like his stint on the bench did him some good. He carried ferouciously and thundered into contact at every oppertunity.

Gray was incredible again, hope he hasn't made any plans for the summer.

Brown handled the captaincy well and was superb in defence against the All Blacks onslaught.

Blair had a very good game too.

As for the criticism of Scott and De Luca, not really sure what they did wrong. They passed well and from memory only knocked on once.... they defended reasonably well but the All Blacks were a class above, and seemed to generate overlaps from nohing.

Ross Ford hs taken some stick again, and we did lose 4 of our own lineouts. Worth considering is that we were up against Whitelock who was himself playing very well. Had Ford thrown a lot of squint ball I could understand the criticism, he didn't. The All Blacks just made a lot of very good intereceptions. Ford played well in the loose rumbling into the contact area and breaking the gain line. He did miss some tackles but so did everyone....

Scotland did play well and if they can carry that form into the South Africa game and tighten up the lineout a wee bit, there is no reason why we can't win the game.

by EWT Spoons Mon Nov 12, 2012 9:45 am

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:Ross Ford hs taken some stick again, and we did lose 4 of our own lineouts. Worth considering is that we were up against Whitelock who was himself playing very well. Had Ford thrown a lot of squint ball I could understand the criticism, he didn't. The All Blacks just made a lot of very good intereceptions. Ford played well in the loose rumbling into the contact area and breaking the gain line. He did miss some tackles but so did everyone....

First off I like Ford, I think he's a good player and don't think he should be dropped, but his lineouts were terrible. I don't know who's making the calls at the lineout but when his throwing is off (which it has been for a while), why persist with trying to hit the back of the lineout which we did whenever we were in their half. It didn't work and we just lost the ball from it, surely it would have made far more sense to take the easier option by hitting the front, secure the ball and build a platform from there.

Maybe I'm wrong, but for me that would have been the sensible option.

Agree with the rest of your points though.

by EST Mon Nov 12, 2012 10:00 am

Well, another decent performance - but after the game I couldn't help feeling it was an opportunity lost. I'm not suggesting we could have won, NZ looked like they were in about 3rd gear throughout much of the second half, but I feel there was a chance we could have made the game interesting going into the final 20.

Negatives:

Defence: It was so pedestrian throughout. Our line speed was non-existent, we let the AB's run at us the whole game. This was allied to basic poor tackling. After all the chat during the week about putting them under pressure, the fact that we we didn't was annoying.

Unforced errors: Restarts, lost line outs & scrums, knock on's under no pressure. These are basic skills - every time we built momentum, an error stopped us in our tracks.

Positives:

Some of our ball carrying was great, Denton put in a shift when he came on and when we went through the middle, we were quite effective.

Visser: Although he was dragged out of position in defence, his support running was fantastic - especially evident in the first try. In years gone by, nobody would have been on the shoulder of Scott.

Thoughts for next week:

Lets get aggressive in defence and try and cut out the unforced errors (easier said than done). Player wise, Ford has to sit this one out, he has been awful in recent weeks. I would also like to see a change in the center partnership, De Luca didnt play well, and hasn't really ever played well for Scotland. I would go for Scott/Dunbar.

AS for NZ, simply the best in the world by some margin - Carter was far too good for us yesterday.

by Guest Mon Nov 12, 2012 10:51 am

Thought the Scottish 'attitude' to how they played was a real credit to them. They played with positive intent, with ball in hand and rarely kicked aimlessly. Reckon they played the ABs at their own game and hence the enjoyable watch. Ref played his part to.

by R!skysports Mon Nov 12, 2012 11:00 am

ebop wrote:Thought the Scottish 'attitude' to how they played was a real credit to them. They played with positive intent, with ball in hand and rarely kicked aimlessly. Reckon they played the ABs at their own game and hence the enjoyable watch. Ref played his part to.

I agree totally - this is what we want - if we are going to go down, we are going to go down fighting (Just as my girlfriend sayes)

We need to continue to play without the fear and it will get better

by **George Carlin** Mon Nov 12, 2012 11:22 am

Agree with the posters on the other threads who say that:

(1) although it's fine to take the positives, we have to stop being happy with defeats, particularly when one of the main reasons (poor defensive alignment and execution) was the reason that the same team had won a number of tight games against the Boks and Wallabies previously;

(2) the reason for (1) is that we now have the personnel to expect more out of this team and we have to stop thinking that other teams are demonstrably better than us from the outset - that's just not true any more and especially when comparing forward packs.

I am absolutely confident that Visser's attitute around the camp has made an enormous difference. The interviews he gave in the run up to the game were great and I think that the potential new caps have contributed a lot to team confidence. As was said by Gavin Hastings a number of months ago, everyone likes this Scottish team - they are well respected as professionals - however, they are just not seen as winners and that's the thing that's going to have to change.

And this is serious now. Argentina beating Wales has made this very simple - unless we win both of the next games, we are in the third pool for the RWC. It almost guarantees that we won't make the quarters.

Robinson and His Kellybrows need to lift the team - this time, amazingly, I think that they actually could do it.

by Pat_Mustard Mon Nov 12, 2012 12:40 pm

George Carlin wrote:Agree with the posters on the other threads who say that:

(1) although it's fine to take the positives, we have to stop being happy with defeats, particularly when one of the main reasons (poor defensive alignment and execution) was the reason that the same team had won a number of tight games against the Boks and Wallabies previously;

(2) the reason for (1) is that we now have the personnel to expect more out of this team and we have to stop thinking that other teams are demonstrably better than us from the outset - that's just not true any more and especially when comparing forward packs.

I am absolutely confident that Visser's attitute around the camp has made an enormous difference. The interviews he gave in the run up to the game were great and I think that the potential new caps have contributed a lot to team confidence. As was said by Gavin Hastings a number of months ago, everyone likes this Scottish team - they are well respected as professionals - however, they are just not seen as winners and that's the thing that's going to have to change.

And this is serious now. Argentina beating Wales has made this very simple - unless we win both of the next games, we are in the third pool for the RWC. It almost guarantees that we won't make the quarters.

Robinson and His Kellybrows need to lift the team - this time, amazingly, I think that they actually could do it.

I've had a mess around with the rankings predictors, and it's not quite as simple as that thanks to SA beating Ireland. If I've got it right, even if we lose to SA by less than 15, we can still make 8th at the expense of Ireland if we beat Tonga and Ireland lose to Argentina, with the margin in at least one of those games being over 15.

Obviously we want win both remaining games to make sure though!

by anotherworldofpain Mon Nov 12, 2012 12:45 pm

Am I wrong or were Scotland the only home nation to score a try?

by **RDW** Mon Nov 12, 2012 12:45 pm

Apart from England...

by GLove39 Mon Nov 12, 2012 1:50 pm

Scotland are the only Celtic nation to score a try

by anotherworldofpain Mon Nov 12, 2012 1:53 pm

RDW_Scotland wrote:Apart from England...

I should have said, "against RC opposition". I'm really disregarding the games between first and second tier nations as irrelevancies.

by mystiroakey Mon Nov 12, 2012 1:57 pm

well france did an all.. they are not irrelvant in reagrds to the hn v sh!

by **RDW** Mon Nov 12, 2012 1:57 pm

GLove39 wrote:Scotland are the only Celtic nation to score a try

Is this not a harbinger of the Apocalypse or something??

by RuggerRadge2611 Mon Nov 12, 2012 2:00 pm

anotherworldofpain wrote:
RDW_Scotland wrote:Apart from England...

I should have said, "against RC opposition". I'm really disregarding the games between first and second tier nations as irrelevancies.

Funny although that comment is, it has to be said the England were very strong against Fiji, they looked really dangerous with the ball in hand and their set piece was very strong platform.

With Australia out of sorts England and to an extent New Zealand's acid test in this series of Autumn Internationals will be their match against each other. Wales are a shambles and will not likely pose a great threat to NZ.

Full credit to NZ for a fantastic display at the weekend. One of the best performances I have ever seen from Carter. An honour to be there.

by mystiroakey Mon Nov 12, 2012 2:02 pm

i dont think he was trying to be funny- just not using the game as a benchmark

by anotherworldofpain Mon Nov 12, 2012 2:12 pm

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:
anotherworldofpain wrote:
RDW_Scotland wrote:Apart from England...

I should have said, "against RC opposition". I'm really disregarding the games between first and second tier nations as irrelevancies.

Funny although that comment is, it has to be said the England were very strong against Fiji, they looked really dangerous with the ball in hand and their set piece was very strong platform.

With Australia out of sorts England and to an extent New Zealand's acid test in this series of Autumn Internationals will be their match against each other. Wales are a shambles and will not likely pose a great threat to NZ.

Full credit to NZ for a fantastic display at the weekend. One of the best performances I have ever seen from Carter. An honour to be there.

Put it this way.

After giving Fiji a hiding, SL said he was "keeping his feet on the ground". Implying he was tempted to be elated by the prospect of having won by roughly the number of points expected by their ranking difference...odd.

By contrast Richie McCaw described NZ's hammering of Scotland as "frustrating", "disappointing", and pointed to "a lot of things to work on".

We have to maintain perspective after these lop-sided games. At the top level a lot of teams a very close and if one shows up at 95% a comfortable victory can turn into a painful defeat.

I don't think it's fair to point to a couple of large margins and declare that those two sides are necessarily the best two.

by ChequeredJersey Mon Nov 12, 2012 2:41 pm

AWOP, our win over Fiji was still our biggest win over them ever. There were promising signs and we are not as good as the ABs. I do not see how you can extrapolate any kind of misplaced confidence out if Lancaster's statement. If you can you should go and be a journalist in the British press. We will have a much better idea of how England are doing in a couple of weeks' time but for once please don't try and create controversy where there is none and don't try to imply that it is unacceptable to not be weeping and begging for forgiveness for only scoring 7 tries against a Fijian side that several/many posters stated they'd thought we'd struggle to beat, especially when there was around the park attacking intent and creativity and all the things we've been missing on show. Now we can see if we can show this against the big 3 too, but as for "being clinical" (which is a terrible misnomer, wish I knew how to phrase that without that awful phrase in it), you can't take your chances if you don't make them first and I'll take 1/2 rather than 0/2... for now

by TJ1 Mon Nov 12, 2012 4:08 pm

RDW_Scotland wrote:
GLove39 wrote:Scotland are the only Celtic nation to score a try

Is this not a harbinger of the Apocalypse or something??

more like Alice in wonderland - 3 impossible things before breakfast

by Imperialbigdave Mon Nov 12, 2012 7:37 pm

Just noticed at 7.30 mins into the game, is Tamati Ellison trying to break Ryan Grants arm? Visser seems to get really rilled up by it.

by 123skelm Mon Nov 12, 2012 7:52 pm

Imperialbigdave

Absolutely spot on he should be cited for this it was totally out of order!

by **RDW** Mon Nov 12, 2012 8:00 pm

Here's what the Kiwi journos gave Scotland:

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/article.cfm?c_id=4&objectid=10846989

by goneagain Mon Nov 12, 2012 8:31 pm

123skelm wrote:Imperialbigdave

Absolutely spot on he should be cited for this it was totally out of order!

Well spotted, you are absolutely right. Blatantly striking Ellison's head long after the whistle had gone. Disgraceful.

by **NeilyBroon** Mon Nov 12, 2012 8:46 pm

ahh the kiwis know how to put it into perspective for sure.

Needless to say I feel the optimism is more justified this time, we're going in the right direction consistently at least!

Let's hope we can start pulling out the wins soon!

by TJ1 Mon Nov 12, 2012 8:48 pm

I still strongly believe that Scotland need to get rid of Robinson. Until we do we will consistently play below our potential as his selections are poor and often the tactics and motivational ability.

by Scot Abroad Mon Nov 12, 2012 8:52 pm

RDW_Scotland wrote:Here's what the Kiwi journos gave Scotland:

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/article.cfm?c_id=4&objectid=10846989

ah our old pals at the Herald. I think there's a bit of a sour taste in their mouths after the weekend. They don't half take themselves seriously.

by Imperialbigdave Mon Nov 12, 2012 9:10 pm

Scot Abroad wrote:
RDW_Scotland wrote:Here's what the Kiwi journos gave Scotland:

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/article.cfm?c_id=4&objectid=10846989

ah our old pals at the Herald. I think there's a bit of a sour taste in their mouths after the weekend. They don't half take themselves seriously.

Relative to the scores the all blacks got, i cant see much to complain about, but in saying that, i wouldve added a 1 to everyones score (including carter, taking him to 11/10).

by **RDW** Mon Nov 12, 2012 9:21 pm

Just watched the game on I player, and have a few further points:

Hamilton has taken over from Lawson as the penalty giving machine - I counted at least 3 pointless penalties

Cross actually had quite a poor game and should lose his place to Murray

Our line speed was so slow - we gave them far too much respect in attack

Ford had a pretty good game, the dodgy lineout throws aside. That missed lineout near their line when they were down to 14 was Brown's mistake - he dropped it.

Hogg has a massive boot - should use it more over Laidlaw!

Dan Carter is in incredible player - best of the best

by **George Carlin** Mon Nov 12, 2012 9:42 pm

Imperialbigdave wrote:
Scot Abroad wrote:
RDW_Scotland wrote:Here's what the Kiwi journos gave Scotland:

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/article.cfm?c_id=4&objectid=10846989

ah our old pals at the Herald. I think there's a bit of a sour taste in their mouths after the weekend. They don't half take themselves seriously.

Relative to the scores the all blacks got, i cant see much to complain about, but in saying that, i wouldve added a 1 to everyones score (including carter, taking him to 11/10).

I'll take it as a compliment that they've put Denton on the All Blacks side.

Rattue really does have tiny wiener syndrome. Roy and HG or the Jedi can do this with humour. Rattue can't do it at all and certainly does not write with any insight, grace or circumspection.

Describing Laidlaw as a "little bloke with little influence" is pathetic. Presumably Rattue spends a good deal of time dancing in front of cripples.

by 21st Century Schizoid Man Mon Nov 12, 2012 10:25 pm

RDW_Scotland wrote:Just watched the game on I player, and have a few further points:

Hamilton has taken over from Lawson as the penalty giving machine - I counted at least 3 pointless penalties

Cross actually had quite a poor game and should lose his place to Murray

Our line speed was so slow - we gave them far too much respect in attack

Ford had a pretty good game, the dodgy lineout throws aside. That missed lineout near their line when they were down to 14 was Brown's mistake - he dropped it.

Hogg has a massive boot - should use it more over Laidlaw!

Dan Carter is in incredible player - best of the best

Ok RD - agree wholeheartedly with all of your comments - but Ford had a good game ? Really ? Bloody hell I thought he was his usual gash self and that was not just his pitiful throwing at the l/os. Murray in for Cross (took his try well as saw McCaw was elsewhere engaged and dived in) is a good shout until we get Welsh back. Enough is enough for De Luca and Hamilton. Two players who have let the nation down abysmally and consistently. Ford to the naughty step but I doubt it will happen as he really must be IBD's, I mean Robinson's love child ! Whistle

by bsando Mon Nov 12, 2012 11:37 pm

Just back from great weekend in Edinburgh. Really enjoyed the game despite the loss. That 15 mins of madness in the first half was pretty shocking. Although the defence was bad from where I was sitting it seemed as though we just gave them all the time in the world to get quick ball and spread it wide into space. You could see the trys coming from a mile away. I was definitely surprised Scotland didn't try to disrupt NZ rucks more to prevent quick ball. Richie Gray was fantastic in defence, I saw him make some really good tackles.

Was a pleasure to watch NZ though, they are all so bloody quick! Dan carter was fantastic.

Scotland in attack were good although the last 20 mins or so was a bit rubbish. Also lineout was pretty awful which is strange as it used to be really good! Ford needs to sort his throws out. With Gray, Hamilton, kellock we should be dominating lineouts.

Of course, it had to be Tim Visser to score the first try. Another try as well in the second half, he is remarkable. Many have questioned his ability to perform at international level. All I want to know is, what the heck else does he have to do to prove these nay sayers wrong!?!? How many other players have scored 2 trys against the All Blacks this year?

Visser: 3 games and 4 trys or if you include baa baas appearance vs England, 4 games & 6 trys.

Max Evans: 31 games, 3 trys. Sean Lamont: 69 games, 8 trys.
Manu Tuilagi: 14 games, 7 trys. Ben Foden: 30 games, 7 trys.
Alex Cuthbert: 10 games, 4 trys. George North: 25 games, 11 trys.
Andrew Trimble: 55 games, 11 trys. Tommy Bowe: 50 games, 24 trys.
Digby Iaone: 29 games, 10 trys. Drew Mitchell: 59 games, 29 trys.
Cory Jane: 26 games, 14 trys. Hosea Gea: 13 games, 6 trys.

All I'm getting at is Visser has most certainly taken his Edinburgh form into international rugby, there is no doubt about it.

Looking forward to SA game this weekend, but defence has to improve. Things are looking positive but Scotland have to sort out some of the basic errors.

by emack2 Tue Nov 13, 2012 12:32 am

After just watching the All Blacks v Scotland game a brave effort by Scotland a lot of possession and territory.Three good trys, Scrum went fairly well Lineouts a bit iffy,good at the breakdown.
The best game I watched over the weekend for enjoyment,did`nt find the France match on Sky or BBC so missed it.England versus Fiji after the first 20 minutes was too one sided.England made too many errors under little pressure
for Lancaster to be totally happy but will be happy with the win.
Ireland did`nt catch it but seemed a game of two halves.Ireland winning the first the Boks the second from the reports many SA fans not happy but a win is a win.
Argentina played a sensible game,applied pressure and took the points as they came.Sad to see probably the end of Contempi career probably ended like that,Roberts injury did``nt help Wales either.Wales set piece went well except for a Scrum and lineout late in the game.First half when they got into Argentina`s half they did enough to force penalties.In the second they had penalty advantages they tried to score tries instead of taking the points .
Either way no need to panic a good win for Argentina but Wales can play better than that.They have`nt become rubbish overnight selecting on form or reputation is a difficult one.Form at Club level isn`t the same as Test level sometimes players cruise at one level.Then explode on the test circuit,many All Blacks for example may have indifferent S15 form but be right on the money.
When they wear a Black shirt Nonu,Mealamu,Muliana,and Cory jane are 4 examples of that.
The All Blacks played brilliantly in patches but were`nt consistent through out the match .They won`t be happy about leaking 3 tries either harsh words will be spoken with tough matches to come.Hopefully Dagg will recover for those.

by RuggerRadge2611 Tue Nov 13, 2012 9:29 am

I actually thought Ford had a pretty good game too. Destructive in the loose, carried well and his throwing seemed to be accurate for all but one squint throw. The fact that the All Blacks disrupted our line out with good counter jumping is not Fords fault.

Whoever was running the lineout (Hamilton Probably) should have gone for more easy ball since Whitelock and Romano were pinching and spoiling our lineout at will.

The only thing I can see that Ford did wrong was miss 2 important tackles. In one of them he was stepped by Dan Carter, something tells me he won't be alone in that bracket. However he really should have nailed Weepu in the other blatant tackle he missed.

I still think he brings a lot more to the table than any of the other Hookers at our disposal with the exception of Pat MacArthur. But he's not available so IMO I would persevere with Ford for the very physical Boks.

by **RDW** Tue Nov 13, 2012 9:32 am

I've tried and failed to find some lineout stats for the game, but having watched it back his throwing wasn't as bad as I remember - yes there were a few dodgy throws but as what radge said there were a few instances where the catcher dropped it (Kelly Brown), McCaw took our jumper out before he jumped, or they just read it well and got up before us.

Not saying his throwing was perfect but it is very easy to blame the hooker when sometimes it is the jumpers that have messed up, or the other team just read it well.

by lostinwales Tue Nov 13, 2012 9:36 am

Problem with turnstile tim is that the defense was a bit questionable. The ability to be in the right place at the right time to score the trys he did is indeed priceless, but with the defensive lapses overall he is only just in credit

by TJ1 Tue Nov 13, 2012 9:42 am

On the lineouts from what I remember two bad throws, the other 3 of the missed lineouts were good ( or dodgy) NZ play

by RuggerRadge2611 Tue Nov 13, 2012 9:44 am

Well Lostinwales funnily enough the Hootsman has publuished an article on that very thought.

http://www.scotsman.com/sport/rugby/top-rugby-stories/allan-massie-if-tim-visser-scores-two-tries-and-leaks-the-one-we-re-in-credit-1-2630143

From the Hootsmon

By ALLAN MASSIE
Published on Tuesday 13 November 2012 01:02

IT MIGHT have been worse. It might have been a lot worse. Nevertheless, there were far too many missed tackles – 21 according to a published statistic, as against 71 made. Curiously, the All Blacks had to make more tackles than the sum total we made and missed, while missing 11 themselves. But this just goes to show how misleading statistics can be. They had to make more tackles because we played a lot of pick-and-drive. In contrast, they moved the ball wide time and time again. One might add that if Dan Carter is faced by a prop and hooker, he will break between them nine times out of ten.

Carter and Richie McCaw: has any team ever had a better 10 and 7? No disrespect to their opposite numbers in the Scotland side, but if they had been switched with Carter and McCaw, I fancy the great duo would still have found themselves in the winner’s enclosure. Some have suggested McCaw had a quiet game. That wasn’t my impression. He was always on the spot when it mattered. To concede six tries is always bad, and at least three of them should have been stopped. “Stopped”, however, may be the wrong word. “Checked” or “delayed” might be better, for the chances are that if the tackles which were missed had been made, the All Blacks would have retained possession, re-cycled the ball and been at us again, and again, and again, till something gave. So, if in the run-up to the tries there were tackles conspicuously missed by Ross Rennie, Sean Lamont, Tim Visser, Geoff Cross, Ross Ford, Stuart Hogg and Max Evans – and by others, less conspicuously – the tries might all have been scored a phase or two later anyway. The All Blacks are that good at recycling the ball from the tackle point and moving it again.

Looking on the brighter side, we scored three tries , and for a team that has been notably try-shy – think of the World Cup a year ago – this was a welcome achievement. Young Matt Scott created the first one by his ability to read the play and intercept Carter’s pass. He then found Tim Visser on his shoulder, and that was that. Probably any of the candidates for the wing position would have scored that try – if, that is, he had had the wit to be there for the pass. Visser’s second try was even easier – a short run-in after Greig Laidlaw cleverly hoicked the ball out of the ruck and Mike Blair alertly took advantage of the unprotected blind side to pass to Visser. But again he had to be there, in the right place at the right time. As Tom English remarked yesterday, Visser’s defence is still a work in progress. Even if it doesn’t progress as far as we might wish, we should remember that several prolific try-scoring wings such as Tommy Bowe, Chris Ashton and Julien Malzieu are fallible in defence. One might add the greatest of them all, David Campese, to that list. If, like Visser – or Campese – you score two, and leak one, you, and your team, are in credit

For most of the game the Scottish forwards gave as good as they got, and often more than that. Ross Ford got pinged for a couple of squint throws and may fairly complain that his opposite number, Andrew Hore, got away with two or three that were at least equally off-line. Some of the Scottish mauling was very good. For a man who hadn’t played for a month, Richie Gray was terrific. In general the forwards’ display suggested that they will at least hold their own against any pack they come up against this season. I daresay Euan Murray will play against South Africa, though that will be rough on Geoff Cross, who had a storming game in the loose. Back-row selection will, as usual, be difficult, though it will be no surprise if, in Ross Rennie’s absence, Andy Robinson sticks with the three who played most of the match. This is all the more likely because young David Denton looks to be returning to last spring’s form. If he opts for a specialist 7, it’s still a difficult choice between John Barclay and Chris Fusaro.

I liked Greig Laidlaw’s restarts – though it was sad that he had to kick so many of them – and Mike Blair was very good, His durability is remarkable, given that he was first capped in 2002. Like all scrum-halves nowadays, he took it on himself to urge decisions on the referee, perhaps employing his developing mastery of the French language. In general, the referee, young Jerome Garces, had a good match. However, I hope he will note that in Cardiff, his compatriot Romain Poite twice whistled up scrum-halves for squint feeds at the scrum. Piri Weepu, however, was allowed repeatedly to put the ball into his second row. I daresay Blair’s feeds weren’t straight either, but one is always, of course, more conscious of the opposition’s illegalities.

A final note to put things in perspective. New Zealand beat Argentina 54-15 in La Plata a couple of months ago; on Saturday Argentina beat Wales 26-12. In their last match against a northern hemisphere country, the All Blacks beat Ireland  60-0. Yet Irish rugby is not exactly in ruins. They lost 12-16 to South Africa on Saturday, and know it is a game they should have won.

Mind you, it’s an up-and down game, as illustrated by Australia’s last two matches: an 18-18 draw with the All Blacks, a crushing 6-33 defeat at the hands of the French. This doesn’t mean France are better than New Zealand, or that the Wallabies are useless.

Defence is often a problem area for most wingers who are prolific scorers. "Little Shane" is a good example, and he was able to tighten up his defence with training.

Lets just say that Visser if he is trained properly and applies himself well will have a much greater defencive advantage than Shane Williams.

Lets face it a man that size should be putting people on their asses.

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