Irish Analysis and player ratings against S.Africa

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Tough game for sure. Not enjoyable for a neutral I'd say. Credit to S.Africa for coming out in the second half with a different mind set and getting the job done.

Good to see Lansdowne road back at full capacity or close enough. Strauss and Bent played well and it was great to see Strauss sing the anthem.

Anyways here it is:
Watching the game again and looking back at Irish general play to have a look in a bit more detail:

Earls in 2nd minute has a 2 on 1 and kicks it into his opposite number the man he was up against on the inside was their tighthead after good work from Darcy.

Unreal zebo under the high ball, good line kicking too.

Sexton kicking well out of hand early on.

Henry dealing with restarts well.

Murray's box kicks are too far for Ireland to challenge for.

Great turnover by POM. He then messes up a lineout badly.

Irish defensive line not coming up together off Saffa scrum. Doing much better off lineout in defence.

Great Irish scrum. First attacking angle run by Earls and Darcy (dummy switch 12 pop 13) knocked on by Earls. Sexton and POM handed off by Adriaan Strauss.

14th minute Irish go wide from inside their 22 they have the numbers but Earls and Trimble can't continue the continuity so kick it. Poor drawing of men.

First Irish lineout lost.

Fantastic steal from Healy after really good attacking play from S.Africa.

18th min good counterattack and then inside line by Zebo. Poor passing by Murray. Good switch from Sexton to Strauss gets over the gainline. Awful decision by Murray to feed McCarthy who was isolated.

Murray's box kicking improving hugely, another good take from Henry on restart.

Great man and ball tackle by McCarthy slowing SA ball down. Great turnover by Henry.

23min. Darcy has to take Murrays pass over his head and ruins attemp to take it up. McCarthy lays out one defender. Ball gets scrappy and Earls plays awful pass to McCarthy.

26min. Good take by Bowe then Sexton uses quick hands to release Earls on the right wing who steps past Hougaard beautifully but becomes isolated.

28min McCarthy fighting brilliantly in maul then turnover penalty won by Strauss. Quick one taken, Sexton feeds Bowe who makes halfbreak on the inside offloads to Murray who feeds Earls really well. Earls releases Zebo who runs well. Murray's passing poor. Great interchange between Bowe and Zebo and then drive by Healy. Momentum slowed due to murray passing slightly above or slightly behind the runner.

JP gets yellow. Ref tells Heaslip to make sure Sexton overreact.

McCarthy misses lineout, looks like a timing issue.

33min. Scrum penalty to ireland on Ross's side.
Penalty count to now is 4-10
Possession 58-42.

Murray wastes ball inside S.African 10m line by box kicking the ball away when maul doesn't work. Poor decision as Boks are still down to 14.

Lineout off the top, ball going straight to Darcy with Trimble and Sexton running wider lines but ball goes well above Darcy's head and the move breaks down.

Darcy challenges line again but very obvious due to no runners. POM carries well. Good carrying Healy after another poor Murray pass.

Ryan and Heaslip doing very well in lineout now. Good maul started on Ryan and Strauss runs over Lambie, ball goes wide and Earls throws the ball forward and in to touch.

Sexton misses his first kick 39min.

Good take by POM on restart, Heaslip goes to high in to contact and support are too slow.

40min. Great work at the breakdown by Murray who steps but offloads to the wrong side as Bowe was on the other shoulder. Henry then gives away idiotic penalty.

HALF TIME.

Zebo clears well from kickoff.

Henry claims ball and offloads to POM who runs approx 15m left and 3m forward.

Good up and under from Sexton Bowe nearly wins it for the second time.

S.Africa counter and Sexton, Earls and Henry are pushed back in contact, then McCarthy absolutely empties Estebenz.

Healy goes off with suspected concussion, Kilcoyne on. S.Africa go for touch instead of points.

McCarthy doesn't get near Estenbez in lineout but does well defending the maul but S.Africa still going forward. Held up eventually by Bowe and Heaslip.

Heaslip sent to the bin for entry in the maul, looked like Ross or Ryan but ref said that Heaslip was the most recent transgression.

McCarthy and Strauss sack maul again, S.Africa go blind and Murray makes a try saving tackle. Sexton and Darcy weak in contact against Adriaan Strauss then very poor pillar defending by Ryan as Pienaar goes in for the try.

45min. Takes Ireland a while to call lineout (must have been Heaslip's job) but the 5 man works and Trimble is sent up the middle on a switch to mediocre effect. Murray immediately then attacks the blind side which is poorly executed by the team. Murray then kicks the ball far too deep and JP takes ball relatively easily and Ireland end up back on halfway from the mark.

47min. Exact same call is made. 5 man lineout, switch with Trimble. Attack the blindside with Murray switching with POM which would work well if the Boks hadn't seen it 2mins before and be prepared for it. Continuing attacking blind side. Poor passing, Irish guys taking it standing still. Poor cross kick from Sexton and returned with interest and trimble knocks it in to touch by mistake.

DeVilliers runs over Darcy then drags Earls with him. Darcy and Henry don't stand up to lambie physically who wins cheap yards.

Another great tackle by McCarthy and steal by Healy. Ball goes through Earls' hands and then Trimble with the entire backfield unoccupied finds a poor touch just outside the 22 when he could have kicked long.

Ryan and Healy working hard in tackle and ruck. Positive contacts. Darcy misses another tackle then POM gives away a penalty for not releasing the tackled player.

53min. Great lineout take again by Ryan, ball is fed to Sexton then Darcy. S.Africa don't put anyone in ruck but the ball is still slow for some reason. Murray takes a while to get there. Great hands from Zebo releases Bowe on the right. Quicker ball not utilised very well at all. Zebo makes some head way again. Darcy and then Earls both attack the blindside to no gain. Strauss and Healy carry very well. Good continuity play. Murray looks unfit takes a while to get to the ruck and when we go through a few phases he just doesn't get there in time and by the time he does the spaces that the quick ball had created are gone. Penalty eventually conceded.
This phase of possession lasted over 3 minutes but we only made it from halfway to just before their 22 yard line. Most yards made by Bowe and Zebo in this attack.

57min. Great maul defence (Healy, McCarthy) but DeVilliers gets over the gainline and supplies quick ball far too easily. Great turnover by Strauss and McCarthy.

58min. Good lineout by McCarthy and nice line running by Darcy and Sexton to put Sexton in the secondary but the S.African defence read it and Sexton has to throw a high pass to McFadden (now on the wing) which kills momentum. Great carry Heaslip and Zebo uses great feet to make yards. Murray and Sexton give hospital passes to POM and McCarthy respectively, lose of yards/momentum.

Excellent feet by Earls to make a halfbreak but he gets caught and doesn't have the strength to stop himself being driven back by Hougaard.

Sexton misses kick from 55m.

More good lineout work but poor contact in midfield. Fringe attack by forwards is very good. Ball becomes far too slow.

64mins. Ross concedes first penalty in the scrum.

POM concedes penalty for taking man in the air. Missed kick and cleared by Zebo. POM knocks on the high bomb after a few phases McCarthy wins the ball back with a huge tackle. Ross concedes another penalty at the scrum won by McCarthy.

72mins. Better scrum with Bent and DOC in. On the second scrum he wins a penalty.

73min. Quick ball from reddan see's Healy go through 3 tackles and then Bent through 2. Negative carries by Ryan stunt momentum and ball lost when ball slows further.

76min. Promising scrum then carry by Heaslip. Good move off the back but Zebo unfortunately loses ball in contact.

79min. Strange seeing the way ROG and Sexton are playing. Insead of all the runners coming off the 10 position they are now running off the 12 position. ROG is almost acting like a second scrumhalf, he gets the ball from Reddan and feeds Sexton who then makes the call on who receives the ball next. We are missing a 12 in this passage of play but we have two 10's which gets the ball wider but also limits the space for second phase possession.

80min. Lineout off top from Heaslip, play in the midfield, Bowe is caught from Zebo's nice inside pass. Play slows. ROG goes blind and chips the ball on for Henderson to chase.

Ireland lose the game.

1-Worst performance you have ever seen
2-Very very bad
3-Bad
4-Below par
5-Average
6-Above average
7-Good
8-Very good
9-Excellent
10-Best performance you've ever seen

Healy- 7.
Good carrying and did well in the rucks and scrummaging.

Strauss- 7.
Some good steals. Lineout went well after few blips. Carried well at times.

Ross- 5.
Some good and bad carries. Still quite ponderous. Good in scrum but unfit.

Ryan- 5.
Poor defence for try. Good lineout. Not much carrying and not enforcing in rucks.

McCarthy- 8.5
Huge workrate on small things. Ruck, maul and tackle was outstanding.

POM- 3.
Not physical enough. Poor discipline. Won a turnover or two I think though.

Henry- 5.5
He made some good carries off restart. Good in ruck. Underpowered at times though. Was rarely a link either.

Heaslip- 4.
Unlucky to be sin binned. Good in defence and lineout but not much in attack.

Murray- 3.
His accuracy of passing was atrocious. Service marginally quicker. Box kicks ok. Decision making poor.

Sexton- 5.5.
Started the game very well but couldn't kick on. Not as great in defence as before, passed well and goal kicking was ok. Will be disappointed.

Trimble- 4.
Didn't get used anywhere near enough. Made a few very basic mistakes but Ireland really need to get the ball in to his hands more often.

Darcy- 5.
Carried well at the start and his defence was good too. Later in the game he really seemed to lose steam. Murray's pass did him no favours.

Earls- 4.5.
Didn't get over the gainline often enough. In wider channels used great feet. His defence was good but never kept his man from getting over the gainline.

Bowe- 7.5
Came off his wing really well and looked for work. Linked brilliantly with Zebo. Nearly won some offensive high balls. Defended well.

Zebo- 8.
He was very good. Very dangerous runner and wasn't underpowered against the Boks. High ball and kicking was good. Great game at 15.

Positives:
1) Scrum was excellent overall
2) Rucking was pretty good in parts as was defence.
3) I thought the lineout was good.
4) McCarthy, Zebo, Bowe, Healy.

Negatives:
1) This team doesn't know how to attack.
2) Maul defence.
3) Mental strength.
4) Murray, Earls, POM.

I am confused by a few things.

A) Why we called the same play twice. It was a phase play idea (the opposite of playing with your heads up) and I was really disappointed that Ryan, Sexton, POM and Henry as the leaders on the pitch in Heaslip's absence didn't do the sensible thing and call a different one.

B) How we are so toothless. earls' break aside we never really looked dangerous and even that was very isolated. Bowe and Zebo did well and looked really good at certain points but we don't seem to know "how to attack". For a side that scored the most tries in the 6N we never once looked remotely like scoring yesterday.

C) Decision making. Rog kicking it in the last play. Madness. Why was he even on? Very disappointing.

D) Physicality was a big issue we just couldn't deal with them once they got out of second gear. You rarely see Sexton getting pushed back very far, he was really strong against SBW for instance but the Saffa's were dominating everyone other than McCarthy and Healy really.

E) We need a proper scrumhalf.

What you guys think? Feel free to vent away about any points I've made or any you have.

For all the Trimble bashers out there that say he is just not good enough,
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pjd7IHPpRyY

I know this is from 2006 with BOD etc at the height of their powers, but Trimble shows up well and has been great for Ulster this season and last.

I can't believe this is descending into tribal warfare. What is the point of slagging each others players? There are always going to be individual mistakes, some will be more obvious than others. The coach cannot bare the responsibility for individuals making basic errors (other than drop the culprit if they are repeated contiually) but MUST take the responsibility when his team seems bereft of ideas.

rapidsnowman wrote:For all the Trimble bashers out there that say he is just not good enough,
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pjd7IHPpRyY

I know this is from 2006 with BOD etc at the height of their powers, but Trimble shows up well and has been great for Ulster this season and last.

I can't believe this is descending into tribal warfare. What is the point of slagging each others players? There are always going to be individual mistakes, some will be more obvious than others. The coach cannot bare the responsibility for individuals making basic errors (other than drop the culprit if they are repeated contiually) but MUST take the responsibility when his team seems bereft of ideas.

I see what they did there, what with the way they passed to him and included him in an attacking move. Genius really.

rapidsnowman wrote:
I can't believe this is descending into tribal warfare. What is the point of slagging each others players? There are always going to be individual mistakes, some will be more obvious than others. The coach cannot bare the responsibility for individuals making basic errors (other than drop the culprit if they are repeated contiually) but MUST take the responsibility when his team seems bereft of ideas.

Well said sir. The underlying issue for me is unquestionably coaching and has been for 3 seasons. Players need to take responsibility for individual performance but when its a collective fault then it goes beyond the players.

The attacking alignment, support play, running lines were as poor as I've seen from an international side. That aligned with slow ruck ball and poor decision making led us to just throw that game away.

SA have got the size and power to just truck it up with slow ball and still get over the gainline but we didn't have the players on Saturday to play that way. We lacked carriers in the pack and had a small midfield that were just bullied about the place. To make things worse our kicking game is awful.

We were lucky we were up against a Boks side who decided not to turn up for the first 35 min. NZ would hvae put another 60 points on us.

If Kidney doesn't go after the Pumas game then the 6N will be a very painful experience I fear.

by our standards this post mortem has not been too tribal yet anyway.

the sheer cluelessness of our attacking game can only be truly appreciated when you see this Ireland team in the flesh. Saturday was as bad as i have seen under Kidney. The fact we only lost by 4 points is neither here nor there.

South Africa were there for the taking, we got ourselves 9points ahead on the basis of great defense and breakdown work, sat back and deservedly lost. The defensive mindset when playing against 14 was so frustrating. If we tacked on 7-10 points during this period we would have gone on to win comfortably. That box kick by Murray when we were 40metres away from their try line was beyond daft. Should have kept the ball, make them defend. We do not make teams defend enough due to our obsession with kicking it away. Jesus even when we made a half break we booted it away.

Credit to Henry,McCarthy,Healy,Bowe,Zebo who were the best of a bad bunch

Dont know what can be done other than change the head coach at this stage. The whole thing is rotten. Of course the players have not delivered at times but the coaching ticket is trying to implement a reduntant style of rugby that only South Africa on a good day have the bulk to play.

It will decent into tribalness when Rog starts in Thomond next week : )

I wouldnt fancy tackling Willem Alberts. An absolute tank. They were so limited but deserved their win.

I agree 100% on that Dave. Spot on sir.....except I'd sort that Alerts fella out no bother....

We're getting close to as bad as we're going to be for a long time lads.

It's always darkest before the dawn...

It's really the Summer Tour during the Lions when the rebuilding phase will begin though.

rapidsnowman wrote:For all the Trimble bashers out there that say he is just not good enough,
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pjd7IHPpRyY

I know this is from 2006 with BOD etc at the height of their powers, but Trimble shows up well and has been great for Ulster this season and last.

I can't believe this is descending into tribal warfare. What is the point of slagging each others players? There are always going to be individual mistakes, some will be more obvious than others. The coach cannot bare the responsibility for individuals making basic errors (other than drop the culprit if they are repeated contiually) but MUST take the responsibility when his team seems bereft of ideas.

Yes note the popped pass to Trimble for the first try or the skipped passes on the gainline.....pity we dont have an OH with the ability to get his backline moving.....

Brave words Mickado, I hope you're right.

I have supported Ireland through the 80's and 90's and things can get pretty bad!

dublin_dave wrote:South Africa were there for the taking, we got ourselves 9points ahead on the basis of great defense and breakdown work, sat back and deservedly lost. The defensive mindset when playing against 14 was so frustrating. If we tacked on 7-10 points during this period we would have gone on to win comfortably. That box kick by Murray when we were 40metres away from their try line was beyond daft. Should have kept the ball, make them defend. We do not make teams defend enough due to our obsession with kicking it away. Jesus even when we made a half break we booted it away.

No mate, you got a lead because SA was illdisciplined, unable to adapt to the referee and made handling errors every time they took the ball up.

DOD
Is it the OH with the ability to get the backline moving or the gameplan to get the backline moving?

Because Sexton seems to be able to get his backline moving at Leinster.

Although EOS seemed to have run his course with Ireland, it can't be denied that under him the backline had some great moves and played some wonderful rugby. Much as I think ROG has been a great servant of Irish rugby, you can't say that he was the sole or even main reason why the back line functioned better.

I have to agree with biltong tbh.

South Africa were abysmal in the first half, and whilst it was encouraging to take a 9-point lead into half time whatever the circumstances we owed a lot of it to their poor performance.

I have to also agree they were there for the taking. They are a good side, but not one to be feared like the All Blacks for example and when they play like they did in the first 40 most sides in the 6N would fancy their chances. Given we were 9 points ahead at half-time and South Africa were looking seriously off-form, it was a game we should have won.

To not score at all in the second half shows just how bad our attacking play really is.

rapidsnowman wrote:DOD
Is it the OH with the ability to get the backline moving or the gameplan to get the backline moving?

Because Sexton seems to be able to get his backline moving at Leinster.

Although EOS seemed to have run his course with Ireland, it can't be denied that under him the backline had some great moves and played some wonderful rugby. Much as I think ROG has been a great servant of Irish rugby, you can't say that he was the sole or even main reason why the back line functioned better.

Sexton is the one who calls the moves for Leinster. So it is Sexton who gets the backline moving for Leinster anyway.

Rog was in his pomp in 2006 and Eddie for all his conservative selections and poor man management was an excellent innovative backs coach.

I think my post was concurring with that LeinsterFan4life

rapidsnowman wrote:I think my post was concurring with that LeinsterFan4life

I know Im backing you up.

a 9 point lead is a sizable lead in test match rugby. whether it was down to irish pressure or south african incompetence is not relevant

It is a young Springbok side with a massive pack and some good young players but i do not think England or Wales would have coughed up a 9point lead against them.

Leinster and Munster of old have given numerous examples of how how to play against 14 men. Keep the ball be patient and go for the juglar. We should have smelt blood at 12-3 against 14 men.

oh well. 2 big games coming up. I think their will be minimal changes for Fiji game

Given the Ireland are not awarding caps for the game, does the game count towards IRB ranking?

Don't believe so Aukster.

dublin_dave wrote:Rog was in his pomp in 2006 and Eddie for all his conservative selections and poor man management was an excellent innovative backs coach.

ROG could also vary his attacking game - equally good at passing to either side, long skip passes, crossfield kicks, dinks in over the opposition - could always keep the opposition guessing. Very quick thinker as well (look at that video and how quickly he reacted to the ball blowing over).

Sexton's has two main strings to his bow - a very good defender and he can kick his points. He only has a short passing game to one side. He has a break, but rarely uses it at international level. His tactical kicking is poor (tactical kicking is not kicking the corners).

Shaun Edwards wrote an article in the Guardian last week about analysis - said they don't really bother too much at club level because with a game each week it would be just information overload - but for international rugby they analyse everything - so they would know exactly how far Sexton can pass etc.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/blog/2012/nov/01/analysts-edge-autumn-tests-shaun-edwards

Looking at that video as well - its a while since we've seen an Irish No. 8 knocking back the opposition the way Denis Leamy was doing. Our No. 8 wasn't doing it on saturday anyway.

I honestly do think that in that game, against that SA side, Paul Marshall would have devastated them.

But then again, back to the same old problem. Individual performances are only a small part of the bigger equation that Kidney has not yet been able to solve.

If you want to look at Ulster as an example. Its a ridiculously risky style of rugby at times. But you know what, it works more times than it doesn't, and even when it doesn't work, its the type of game that keeps the opposition guessing.

Kidney doesn't like that kind of play. He must have concerns about his heart or something. He clearly instructs the team do do nothing that could potentially be silly.

In fairness, ROG made a stupid kick, and at the worst time in the match, but perhaps it came from frustration at sitting on a bench watching a team too fearful to risk anything.

LeinsterFan4life wrote:

rapidsnowman wrote:DOD
Is it the OH with the ability to get the backline moving or the gameplan to get the backline moving?

Because Sexton seems to be able to get his backline moving at Leinster.

Although EOS seemed to have run his course with Ireland, it can't be denied that under him the backline had some great moves and played some wonderful rugby. Much as I think ROG has been a great servant of Irish rugby, you can't say that he was the sole or even main reason why the back line functioned better.

Sexton is the one who calls the moves for Leinster. So it is Sexton who gets the backline moving for Leinster anyway.

I wasnt saying he was the reason the backline got moving but he had all the requirements/vision/armory to be one of the reasons the backline was very good during the 06-08 timeframe. Sexton is ok but hasnt any variation in his game unfortunately. Watching the ABs yesterday the replacement OH came on for Dagg (Barrett)... in the lead up to Savea's first try his miss pass in midfield made the space and on a couple of occassions his passing ability was evident (without even mentioning Carter). The only OH in Ireland with that sort of ability is Madigan at the moment I dont think Keatley has it and possibly Jackson but not sure. It was the reason O'Gara was good in his time and it is what is needed...

clivemcl wrote:I honestly do think that in that game, against that SA side, Paul Marshall would have devastated them.

But then again, back to the same old problem. Individual performances are only a small part of the bigger equation that Kidney has not yet been able to solve.

If you want to look at Ulster as an example. Its a ridiculously risky style of rugby at times. But you know what, it works more times than it doesn't, and even when it doesn't work, its the type of game that keeps the opposition guessing.

Kidney doesn't like that kind of play. He must have concerns about his heart or something. He clearly instructs the team do do nothing that could potentially be silly.

In fairness, ROG made a stupid kick, and at the worst time in the match, but perhaps it came from frustration at sitting on a bench watching a team too fearful to risk anything.

I'm so sick of the brain dead gameplan Ireland employ.Up n unders are a standard tactic from this team,they are proof alone that the management are choosing how we play,not the players.Sexton doesn't kick aimless up n unders for Leinster,I can remember a cross field kick in our own 22 v Cardiff and the kick for Nacewas try v Llanelli in the HC this year but both of those were high percentage kicks.He spotted the opposition were out of position and found his winger with an inch perfect kick.

Contrast to saturday when on the half way line he launched several big bombs,they were decent in quality and gave the chasers a chance but we were never the favourites to win back the ball.

Honestly the most enjoyment I got from that game was the craic in the pub as my mates slagged me,apparently I'm a dead ringer for Pat Lambie.

There must have been what...all of three up and unders....yep thats the tactic alright. Maybe you spent more time looking in the mirror than at the game

DOD wrote:There must have been what...all of three up and unders....yep thats the tactic alright. Maybe you spent more time looking in the mirror than at the game

I would count box kicks as up n unders DOD, they amount to the same thing.

Box kicks are box kicks. Not Up and unders.

Box kicks are fine, actually, if they are executed well. I never saw a box kick go up where we had a chance of regaining the ball.

The stats make for depressing reading, Heaslip wasn’t good enough (but I didn’t need the stats to tell me that), no ball carries and our scrum half kicked away more ball than our out half.

I could go on but i'd rather eat my own foot...

clivemcl wrote:

DOD wrote:There must have been what...all of three up and unders....yep thats the tactic alright. Maybe you spent more time looking in the mirror than at the game

I would count box kicks as up n unders DOD, they amount to the same thing.

Maybe you missed it DOD but I posted in another thread to tell you I have you on ignore so no need to waste your time replying to me.The only pity is I still get to read your ignorant tripe when another poster quotes you.

a box kick against 14 men in the oppositions half is not fine.

rugby has moved on, it was a nice evening to play some rugby. hang onto the ball make them defend take it to them as opposed to hand them the ball and hope they make some mistakes - the kidney way

Madigan is a talent but would be like a fish up a tree in this Irish team.

He thrives on good service and quick ball neither of which he will get.

Notch wrote:Box kicks are box kicks. Not Up and unders.

Box kicks are fine, actually, if they are executed well. I never saw a box kick go up where we had a chance of regaining the ball.

Notch, I was saying that in the case of the original complaint a poster made, they amount to the same thing. They both have similar objectives. High kick, chaser tries to get under it.

Both can fail similarly if they are too long, or don't have a decent chase.

Notch wrote:Box kicks are box kicks. Not Up and unders.

Box kicks are fine, actually, if they are executed well. I never saw a box kick go up where we had a chance of regaining the ball.

Notch they are effectively the same thing just one is slightly further behind the gainline. Ideally you'd win both back. Just because there were no good box kicks doesn't mean they weren't boxkicks.

Healy-Strauss-Ross
Ryan-McCarthy
Henderson-POM-Henry (c)
Reddan-Sexton
Darcy-Bowe
Earls-Zebo-Trimble

Cronin-Kilcoyne-Bent-Tuohy-McLaughlin-Marshall-Jackson-Marshall

Am I going crazy, or did a mod remove one of my posts?

If so, why? Do you not normally tell the person why?

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:

Notch wrote:Box kicks are box kicks. Not Up and unders.

Box kicks are fine, actually, if they are executed well. I never saw a box kick go up where we had a chance of regaining the ball.

Notch they are effectively the same thing just one is slightly further behind the gainline. Ideally you'd win both back. Just because there were no good box kicks doesn't mean they weren't boxkicks.

Eh? There were lots of box kicks.

I would see box kicks as mainly being used when a team is on the backfoot in its own territory. Up and unders are generally used when attacking between the 22s and the defence is well organised.

Oh grand I thought you were saying there weren't any and thought you were mad!

I'd agree with your summary on the pair of them. Personally I think it makes more sense to box kick than kick the up and under as you don't sacrifice the gainline to the same extent also means your forwards are immediately onside.

Either way Notch it kind of shows an element of desperation, and lack of belief in breaking the defence with ball in hand. It also doesn't help if the kicks are poor. I've never got up n unders really. What are the percentages in up n unders working out positively for the team in attack.

I think more often than not the defending team gather the ball, and boot it back down to where you were when you had the possession in the first place.

Exactly the kind of thing you would opt to do if you had no idea how to break a defence with a backline.

clivemcl wrote:Either way Notch it kind of shows an element of desperation, and lack of belief in breaking the defence with ball in hand. It also doesn't help if the kicks are poor. I've never got up n unders really. What are the percentages in up n unders working out positively for the team in attack.

I think more often than not the defending team gather the ball, and boot it back down to where you were when you had the possession in the first place.

Exactly the kind of thing you would opt to do if you had no idea how to break a defence with a backline.

Plus normally your back 3 are the chasers so your best counter attackers are up the field and you will have maybe a backrow forward or your outhalf recieviong the kick.

Box kicks and/or up and unders usually work better when they land outside the oppositions 22 and are weighted enough to allow your chasers to put some pressure on the opposition catcher....

Some of Murrays box kicks were just moronic...clearly he learnt his trade from TOL.

Sextons kicking from hand has been very poor as well.....although there were a couple early garryowens that Bowe was able to gather. Not sure why we didn't use that tactic more instead of kicking long and aimlessly or running ourselves into trouble off slow ruck ball.

The up and under works well if you have someone like Kearny or Bowe with great aerial skills. Kearny is especially good here as he can just pluck them out of the air and then step on the accelerator straight away, putting his football skill to good use. We were missing Kearney and bowe was being stretched all over the back line. So that tactic was null and void.

Also there was a distinct look of anger and frustration on Bowes face when our few attack moves crumbled, whereas Zebo was all smiles. Would that have wound Bowe up further. You can see him on occasion screaming at Zebo to pass the ball prior to running into contact. To be honest Zebo did a lot better that I though he would, to the point where I would retain him at 15 but I do feel he should try and offload prior to contact. He did this in the latter stages of the second half and it worked well but for most of the match he would just crash ball, even though he had men in support. It's a small issue but a crucial one all the same as it just halts any momentum.

clivemcl wrote:Either way Notch it kind of shows an element of desperation, and lack of belief in breaking the defence with ball in hand. It also doesn't help if the kicks are poor.

No, you're wrong.

You don't complain when Ulster box kick, and box kicks have been something we've used a lot this season. Difference is, Marshall and Pienaar have been very accurate with their box kicks and it's caused problems for the defending team. It's not desperation at all. Even attacking sides use the box kick when they are on the back foot. This is a normal tactic.

Box kicks are not the problem, that is a complete red herring. The situations where Ireland box kicked are not situations we would have looked to attack from anyway. The issue with box kicking is fairly average execution and no chase or real attempt to regain possession.

The issue that we have absolutely no idea what we're doing with the ball in hand once we are in a position to attack has no relation to box kicking.

Notch wrote:

clivemcl wrote:Either way Notch it kind of shows an element of desperation, and lack of belief in breaking the defence with ball in hand. It also doesn't help if the kicks are poor.

No, you're wrong.

You don't complain when Ulster box kick, and box kicks have been something we've used a lot this season. Difference is, Marshall and Pienaar have been very accurate with their box kicks and it's caused problems for the defending team. It's not desperation at all. Even attacking sides use the box kick when they are on the back foot. This is a normal tactic.

Box kicks are not the problem, that is a complete red herring. The situations where Ireland box kicked are not situations we would have looked to attack from anyway. The issue with box kicking is fairly average execution and no chase or real attempt to regain possession.

The issue that we have absolutely no idea what we're doing with the ball in hand once we are in a position to attack has no relation to box kicking.

yea I see what your saying Notch. Fair play.

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:Healy-Strauss-Ross
Ryan-McCarthy
Henderson-POM-Henry (c)
Reddan-Sexton
Darcy-Bowe
Earls-Zebo-Trimble

Cronin-Kilcoyne-Bent-Tuohy-McLaughlin-Marshall-Jackson-Marshall

Would go with

Kilcoyne – Strauss – Bent
McCarthy – Touhy
Henderson – Heaslip (c) – Henry
Marshall – Jackson
Trimble – Marshall – Earls – Bowe
Zebo

Cronin – Healy – Ross – Ryan – POM – Murray – Sexton – McFadden

Reddan is injured as far as I know.

Notch wrote:

clivemcl wrote:Either way Notch it kind of shows an element of desperation, and lack of belief in breaking the defence with ball in hand. It also doesn't help if the kicks are poor.

No, you're wrong.

You don't complain when Ulster box kick, and box kicks have been something we've used a lot this season. Difference is, Marshall and Pienaar have been very accurate with their box kicks and it's caused problems for the defending team. It's not desperation at all. Even attacking sides use the box kick when they are on the back foot. This is a normal tactic.

Box kicks are not the problem, that is a complete red herring. The situations where Ireland box kicked are not situations we would have looked to attack from anyway. The issue with box kicking is fairly average execution and no chase or real attempt to regain possession.

The issue that we have absolutely no idea what we're doing with the ball in hand once we are in a position to attack has no relation to box kicking.

Spot on Notch.

Started a new thread for the Fiji game lads.

BelfastDickVet wrote:
Also there was a distinct look of anger and frustration on Bowes face when our few attack moves crumbled, whereas Zebo was all smiles. Would that have wound Bowe up further. You can see him on occasion screaming at Zebo to pass the ball prior to running into contact. To be honest Zebo did a lot better that I though he would, to the point where I would retain him at 15 but I do feel he should try and offload prior to contact. He did this in the latter stages of the second half and it worked well but for most of the match he would just crash ball, even though he had men in support. It's a small issue but a crucial one all the same as it just halts any momentum.

I thought Zebo and Earls just crabbed across the field and cut down Bowe and Trimbles space. On the occiasions Trimble kicked away (poorly) because he simply had no room and the guys inside were just shuffling across and putting us under pressure and not creating any overlaps or space.

Earls made two decent breaks but on the first got isolated and penalised and on the second got picked up and driven backwards.

Everyone was aligned too deep, probably because Murrays slow service was allowing the boks defence to move up on us. D'arcy was taking crash ball 5metres behind the gainline and on the few occaisions we made half breaks there was no support runners.

Sexton ran too many times when he should have kicked and the men outside just isolated themselves and got nailed behind the gainline. The whole thing was a comedy of errors, the kind of thing you would show U-13 school boys so they know how not to play rugby.....

BelfastDickVet wrote:The up and under works well if you have someone like Kearny or Bowe with great aerial skills. Kearny is especially good here as he can just pluck them out of the air and then step on the accelerator straight away, putting his football skill to good use. We were missing Kearney and bowe was being stretched all over the back line. So that tactic was null and void.

Also there was a distinct look of anger and frustration on Bowes face when our few attack moves crumbled, whereas Zebo was all smiles. Would that have wound Bowe up further. You can see him on occasion screaming at Zebo to pass the ball prior to running into contact. To be honest Zebo did a lot better that I though he would, to the point where I would retain him at 15 but I do feel he should try and offload prior to contact. He did this in the latter stages of the second half and it worked well but for most of the match he would just crash ball, even though he had men in support. It's a small issue but a crucial one all the same as it just halts any momentum.

I thought Zebo was one of our best performers after Healy, Bowe and McCarthy. He claimed all the high balls sent his way bar 1 which Pietersen knocked on, he attacked quite well with Bowe both setting each other up with inside passes. He had a few passages where he got the ball quite regularly and looked dangerous. His kicking was long but kind of aimless granted. He also fed Bowe on the right flank in the first half with some really quick hands Felix Jones style.

What did everyone think of this detail I noticed?

79min. Strange seeing the way ROG and Sexton are playing. Insead of all the runners coming off the 10 position they are now running off the 12 position. ROG is almost acting like a second scrumhalf, he gets the ball from Reddan and feeds Sexton who then makes the call on who receives the ball next. We are missing a 12 in this passage of play but we have two 10's which gets the ball wider but also limits the space for second phase possession.

I find it weird I have to say hard to describe and would urge people to have a look at it again and see how unorthodox it is

It's not surprising considering our attack coach is a RL player who never played the game.

Breaking down defences is easy in RL. The game is designed to allow tries to be scored a plenty.

Kidney bringing in Foley and putting Kiss in charge of attack is the stupidest descision I've ever heard.

As BOD said the other night even the players don't have a clue what Kidney wants. I don't think he does himself.

rodders wrote:It's not surprising considering our attack coach is a RL player who never played the game.

Breaking down defences is easy in RL. The game is designed to allow tries to be scored a plenty.

Kidney bringing in Foley and putting Kiss in charge of attack is the stupidest descision I've ever heard.

As BOD said the other night even the players don't have a clue what Kidney wants. I don't think he does himself.

In fairness to Kidney this is the IRFU's fault,they obviously won't sanction paying big bucks to a new attack coach (and let's be honest who'd join this lame duck coaching ticket for the last 6-8 months of their regime).

By renewing Kidneys contract and now refusing to do the decent thing and put him out of his misery they have basically thrown away an entire season.We are playing a waiting game until the Kidney clock ticks down,it's sad to say but Kidney is the perfect example of the Peter Principle.