Irish Analysis and player ratings against S.Africa

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Tough game for sure. Not enjoyable for a neutral I'd say. Credit to S.Africa for coming out in the second half with a different mind set and getting the job done.

Good to see Lansdowne road back at full capacity or close enough. Strauss and Bent played well and it was great to see Strauss sing the anthem.

Anyways here it is:
Watching the game again and looking back at Irish general play to have a look in a bit more detail:

Earls in 2nd minute has a 2 on 1 and kicks it into his opposite number the man he was up against on the inside was their tighthead after good work from Darcy.

Unreal zebo under the high ball, good line kicking too.

Sexton kicking well out of hand early on.

Henry dealing with restarts well.

Murray's box kicks are too far for Ireland to challenge for.

Great turnover by POM. He then messes up a lineout badly.

Irish defensive line not coming up together off Saffa scrum. Doing much better off lineout in defence.

Great Irish scrum. First attacking angle run by Earls and Darcy (dummy switch 12 pop 13) knocked on by Earls. Sexton and POM handed off by Adriaan Strauss.

14th minute Irish go wide from inside their 22 they have the numbers but Earls and Trimble can't continue the continuity so kick it. Poor drawing of men.

First Irish lineout lost.

Fantastic steal from Healy after really good attacking play from S.Africa.

18th min good counterattack and then inside line by Zebo. Poor passing by Murray. Good switch from Sexton to Strauss gets over the gainline. Awful decision by Murray to feed McCarthy who was isolated.

Murray's box kicking improving hugely, another good take from Henry on restart.

Great man and ball tackle by McCarthy slowing SA ball down. Great turnover by Henry.

23min. Darcy has to take Murrays pass over his head and ruins attemp to take it up. McCarthy lays out one defender. Ball gets scrappy and Earls plays awful pass to McCarthy.

26min. Good take by Bowe then Sexton uses quick hands to release Earls on the right wing who steps past Hougaard beautifully but becomes isolated.

28min McCarthy fighting brilliantly in maul then turnover penalty won by Strauss. Quick one taken, Sexton feeds Bowe who makes halfbreak on the inside offloads to Murray who feeds Earls really well. Earls releases Zebo who runs well. Murray's passing poor. Great interchange between Bowe and Zebo and then drive by Healy. Momentum slowed due to murray passing slightly above or slightly behind the runner.

JP gets yellow. Ref tells Heaslip to make sure Sexton overreact.

McCarthy misses lineout, looks like a timing issue.

33min. Scrum penalty to ireland on Ross's side.
Penalty count to now is 4-10
Possession 58-42.

Murray wastes ball inside S.African 10m line by box kicking the ball away when maul doesn't work. Poor decision as Boks are still down to 14.

Lineout off the top, ball going straight to Darcy with Trimble and Sexton running wider lines but ball goes well above Darcy's head and the move breaks down.

Darcy challenges line again but very obvious due to no runners. POM carries well. Good carrying Healy after another poor Murray pass.

Ryan and Heaslip doing very well in lineout now. Good maul started on Ryan and Strauss runs over Lambie, ball goes wide and Earls throws the ball forward and in to touch.

Sexton misses his first kick 39min.

Good take by POM on restart, Heaslip goes to high in to contact and support are too slow.

40min. Great work at the breakdown by Murray who steps but offloads to the wrong side as Bowe was on the other shoulder. Henry then gives away idiotic penalty.

HALF TIME.

Zebo clears well from kickoff.

Henry claims ball and offloads to POM who runs approx 15m left and 3m forward.

Good up and under from Sexton Bowe nearly wins it for the second time.

S.Africa counter and Sexton, Earls and Henry are pushed back in contact, then McCarthy absolutely empties Estebenz.

Healy goes off with suspected concussion, Kilcoyne on. S.Africa go for touch instead of points.

McCarthy doesn't get near Estenbez in lineout but does well defending the maul but S.Africa still going forward. Held up eventually by Bowe and Heaslip.

Heaslip sent to the bin for entry in the maul, looked like Ross or Ryan but ref said that Heaslip was the most recent transgression.

McCarthy and Strauss sack maul again, S.Africa go blind and Murray makes a try saving tackle. Sexton and Darcy weak in contact against Adriaan Strauss then very poor pillar defending by Ryan as Pienaar goes in for the try.

45min. Takes Ireland a while to call lineout (must have been Heaslip's job) but the 5 man works and Trimble is sent up the middle on a switch to mediocre effect. Murray immediately then attacks the blind side which is poorly executed by the team. Murray then kicks the ball far too deep and JP takes ball relatively easily and Ireland end up back on halfway from the mark.

47min. Exact same call is made. 5 man lineout, switch with Trimble. Attack the blindside with Murray switching with POM which would work well if the Boks hadn't seen it 2mins before and be prepared for it. Continuing attacking blind side. Poor passing, Irish guys taking it standing still. Poor cross kick from Sexton and returned with interest and trimble knocks it in to touch by mistake.

DeVilliers runs over Darcy then drags Earls with him. Darcy and Henry don't stand up to lambie physically who wins cheap yards.

Another great tackle by McCarthy and steal by Healy. Ball goes through Earls' hands and then Trimble with the entire backfield unoccupied finds a poor touch just outside the 22 when he could have kicked long.

Ryan and Healy working hard in tackle and ruck. Positive contacts. Darcy misses another tackle then POM gives away a penalty for not releasing the tackled player.

53min. Great lineout take again by Ryan, ball is fed to Sexton then Darcy. S.Africa don't put anyone in ruck but the ball is still slow for some reason. Murray takes a while to get there. Great hands from Zebo releases Bowe on the right. Quicker ball not utilised very well at all. Zebo makes some head way again. Darcy and then Earls both attack the blindside to no gain. Strauss and Healy carry very well. Good continuity play. Murray looks unfit takes a while to get to the ruck and when we go through a few phases he just doesn't get there in time and by the time he does the spaces that the quick ball had created are gone. Penalty eventually conceded.
This phase of possession lasted over 3 minutes but we only made it from halfway to just before their 22 yard line. Most yards made by Bowe and Zebo in this attack.

57min. Great maul defence (Healy, McCarthy) but DeVilliers gets over the gainline and supplies quick ball far too easily. Great turnover by Strauss and McCarthy.

58min. Good lineout by McCarthy and nice line running by Darcy and Sexton to put Sexton in the secondary but the S.African defence read it and Sexton has to throw a high pass to McFadden (now on the wing) which kills momentum. Great carry Heaslip and Zebo uses great feet to make yards. Murray and Sexton give hospital passes to POM and McCarthy respectively, lose of yards/momentum.

Excellent feet by Earls to make a halfbreak but he gets caught and doesn't have the strength to stop himself being driven back by Hougaard.

Sexton misses kick from 55m.

More good lineout work but poor contact in midfield. Fringe attack by forwards is very good. Ball becomes far too slow.

64mins. Ross concedes first penalty in the scrum.

POM concedes penalty for taking man in the air. Missed kick and cleared by Zebo. POM knocks on the high bomb after a few phases McCarthy wins the ball back with a huge tackle. Ross concedes another penalty at the scrum won by McCarthy.

72mins. Better scrum with Bent and DOC in. On the second scrum he wins a penalty.

73min. Quick ball from reddan see's Healy go through 3 tackles and then Bent through 2. Negative carries by Ryan stunt momentum and ball lost when ball slows further.

76min. Promising scrum then carry by Heaslip. Good move off the back but Zebo unfortunately loses ball in contact.

79min. Strange seeing the way ROG and Sexton are playing. Insead of all the runners coming off the 10 position they are now running off the 12 position. ROG is almost acting like a second scrumhalf, he gets the ball from Reddan and feeds Sexton who then makes the call on who receives the ball next. We are missing a 12 in this passage of play but we have two 10's which gets the ball wider but also limits the space for second phase possession.

80min. Lineout off top from Heaslip, play in the midfield, Bowe is caught from Zebo's nice inside pass. Play slows. ROG goes blind and chips the ball on for Henderson to chase.

Ireland lose the game.

1-Worst performance you have ever seen
2-Very very bad
3-Bad
4-Below par
5-Average
6-Above average
7-Good
8-Very good
9-Excellent
10-Best performance you've ever seen

Healy- 7.
Good carrying and did well in the rucks and scrummaging.

Strauss- 7.
Some good steals. Lineout went well after few blips. Carried well at times.

Ross- 5.
Some good and bad carries. Still quite ponderous. Good in scrum but unfit.

Ryan- 5.
Poor defence for try. Good lineout. Not much carrying and not enforcing in rucks.

McCarthy- 8.5
Huge workrate on small things. Ruck, maul and tackle was outstanding.

POM- 3.
Not physical enough. Poor discipline. Won a turnover or two I think though.

Henry- 5.5
He made some good carries off restart. Good in ruck. Underpowered at times though. Was rarely a link either.

Heaslip- 4.
Unlucky to be sin binned. Good in defence and lineout but not much in attack.

Murray- 3.
His accuracy of passing was atrocious. Service marginally quicker. Box kicks ok. Decision making poor.

Sexton- 5.5.
Started the game very well but couldn't kick on. Not as great in defence as before, passed well and goal kicking was ok. Will be disappointed.

Trimble- 4.
Didn't get used anywhere near enough. Made a few very basic mistakes but Ireland really need to get the ball in to his hands more often.

Darcy- 5.
Carried well at the start and his defence was good too. Later in the game he really seemed to lose steam. Murray's pass did him no favours.

Earls- 4.5.
Didn't get over the gainline often enough. In wider channels used great feet. His defence was good but never kept his man from getting over the gainline.

Bowe- 7.5
Came off his wing really well and looked for work. Linked brilliantly with Zebo. Nearly won some offensive high balls. Defended well.

Zebo- 8.
He was very good. Very dangerous runner and wasn't underpowered against the Boks. High ball and kicking was good. Great game at 15.

Positives:
1) Scrum was excellent overall
2) Rucking was pretty good in parts as was defence.
3) I thought the lineout was good.
4) McCarthy, Zebo, Bowe, Healy.

Negatives:
1) This team doesn't know how to attack.
2) Maul defence.
3) Mental strength.
4) Murray, Earls, POM.

I am confused by a few things.

A) Why we called the same play twice. It was a phase play idea (the opposite of playing with your heads up) and I was really disappointed that Ryan, Sexton, POM and Henry as the leaders on the pitch in Heaslip's absence didn't do the sensible thing and call a different one.

B) How we are so toothless. earls' break aside we never really looked dangerous and even that was very isolated. Bowe and Zebo did well and looked really good at certain points but we don't seem to know "how to attack". For a side that scored the most tries in the 6N we never once looked remotely like scoring yesterday.

C) Decision making. Rog kicking it in the last play. Madness. Why was he even on? Very disappointing.

D) Physicality was a big issue we just couldn't deal with them once they got out of second gear. You rarely see Sexton getting pushed back very far, he was really strong against SBW for instance but the Saffa's were dominating everyone other than McCarthy and Healy really.

E) We need a proper scrumhalf.

What you guys think? Feel free to vent away about any points I've made or any you have.

I just found it really strange, that we were doing the same moves just further out in the field leaving us with less space to attack overall. Was a waste of a player as well, as all ROG was doing was shovelling it further wide.

rodders wrote:It's not surprising considering our attack coach is a RL player who never played the game.

Breaking down defences is easy in RL. The game is designed to allow tries to be scored a plenty.

Kidney bringing in Foley and putting Kiss in charge of attack is the stupidest descision I've ever heard.

As BOD said the other night even the players don't have a clue what Kidney wants. I don't think he does himself.

Les Kiss has had nothing to do with rugby league for at least 20 years. Since then he has been coaching rugby union with SA, Stormers, Bulls, Cats, Warratahs, Australia A and Aus U21s. He has also coached in Japan.

It should be noted that Ireland were the top try scoring nation in the last 6Ns.

Link please to where BOD said the players don't have a clue what Kidney wants.

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:

BelfastDickVet wrote:The up and under works well if you have someone like Kearny or Bowe with great aerial skills. Kearny is especially good here as he can just pluck them out of the air and then step on the accelerator straight away, putting his football skill to good use. We were missing Kearney and bowe was being stretched all over the back line. So that tactic was null and void.

Also there was a distinct look of anger and frustration on Bowes face when our few attack moves crumbled, whereas Zebo was all smiles. Would that have wound Bowe up further. You can see him on occasion screaming at Zebo to pass the ball prior to running into contact. To be honest Zebo did a lot better that I though he would, to the point where I would retain him at 15 but I do feel he should try and offload prior to contact. He did this in the latter stages of the second half and it worked well but for most of the match he would just crash ball, even though he had men in support. It's a small issue but a crucial one all the same as it just halts any momentum.

I thought Zebo was one of our best performers after Healy, Bowe and McCarthy. He claimed all the high balls sent his way bar 1 which Pietersen knocked on, he attacked quite well with Bowe both setting each other up with inside passes. He had a few passages where he got the ball quite regularly and looked dangerous. His kicking was long but kind of aimless granted. He also fed Bowe on the right flank in the first half with some really quick hands Felix Jones style.

I agree that he played well but he limited our game slightly, ( not nearly half as much as murry did) as he almost always crashed the ball up instead of distributing it. Our backs are designed for a more dynamic game not a crash ball style. But in fairness to him at least he was trying to show some attacking spirit, trying to ignite some form of attack form our back line, I would just like him to pass prior to contact abit more.

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:I just found it really strange, that we were doing the same moves just further out in the field leaving us with less space to attack overall. Was a waste of a player as well, as all ROG was doing was shovelling it further wide.

It was 5 minutes from the end. The game was lost in the other 75 mins.

Sin é wrote:
Les Kiss has had nothing to do with rugby league for at least 20 years. Since then he has been coaching rugby union with SA, Stormers, Bulls, Cats, Warratahs, Australia A and Aus U21s. He has also coached in Japan.

It should be noted that Ireland were the top try scoring nation in the last 6Ns.

Link please to where BOD said the players don't have a clue what Kidney wants.

No it shouldn't we finished 4th.

BOD said it in the build up to the game. You'll probably find it on youtube. Also said that Kidney talks a bit at half time, then there's a specific defensive analysis but no specialist attacking analysis done during the game. Not surprising because anyone with a bit of wit and decent view could see what the problems were.

rodders wrote:

Sin é wrote:
Les Kiss has had nothing to do with rugby league for at least 20 years. Since then he has been coaching rugby union with SA, Stormers, Bulls, Cats, Warratahs, Australia A and Aus U21s. He has also coached in Japan.

It should be noted that Ireland were the top try scoring nation in the last 6Ns.

Link please to where BOD said the players don't have a clue what Kidney wants.

No it shouldn't we finished 4th.

BOD said it in the build up to the game. You'll probably find it on youtube. Also said that Kidney talks a bit at half time, then there's a specific defensive analysis but no specialist attacking analysis done during the game. Not surprising because anyone with a bit of wit and decent view could see what the problems were.

What's our try scoring record against teams in the top 8 of the world rankings?

He linked really well with Bowe I felt the two of them worked really well together IMO. They fed each other on inside lines a few times and in the second half Zebo displayed great hands to release Bowe on the right wing.

Lets face it. BOD goes to work with Leinster and probably learns something new every day with Joe Schmidt. Goes to work with Ireland and learns absolutly nothing from Kidney because he ran out of ideas three years ago when we lost to Scotland in croke park. Its no surprise no one has a clue what Kidney is on about. He probably doesnt even know himself.

so 6 points up at half time and all they talked about was battening down the hatches. would make sense really

and our defensive master plan went out the window with healy off and heaslip sin binned. all of a sudden we are a whopping one point down and have no idea what to do against a big bruising springbok side who upped it 2nd half.

Hah! Come on, the game was lost across 80 minutes. Try counts the same in the 80th minute as the 1st minute. And we didn't have a baldy clue how to score one before and after ROG came on.

I agree with Sin. Let it be noted that Ireland were the top try scoring side in the Six Nations. Let it also be noted that Ireland rely on their pack going forward to create space to attack around the ruck. Let it be recognised that when Ireland come up against a team that can match us up front and don't slip off easy tackles- essentially any decent international rugby side- we genuinely don't know what to do. If our ball carriers in the pack are not making yards at every phase of play, we are impotent and clueless.

If you watched the game at the weekend and you don think Ireland have a problem with attack then you're in denial.

Notch wrote:Hah! Come on, the game was lost across 80 minutes. Try counts the same in the 80th minute as the 1st minute. And we didn't have a baldy clue how to score one before and after ROG came on.

I agree with Sin. Let it be noted that Ireland were the top try scoring side in the Six Nations. Let it also be noted that Ireland rely on their pack going forward to create space to attack around the ruck. Let it be recognised that when Ireland come up against a team that can match us up front and don't slip off easy tackles- essentially any decent international rugby side- we genuinely don't know what to do. If our ball carriers in the pack are not making yards at every phase of play, we are impotent and clueless.

It just isn't acceptable to be able to be found out so easily. It is so far below par it is scary. I really think we need a Kiwi coach in the Joe Schmidt mould who will teach us how to play good rugby which is where our strength lies

rodders wrote:

Sin é wrote:
Les Kiss has had nothing to do with rugby league for at least 20 years. Since then he has been coaching rugby union with SA, Stormers, Bulls, Cats, Warratahs, Australia A and Aus U21s. He has also coached in Japan.

It should be noted that Ireland were the top try scoring nation in the last 6Ns.

Link please to where BOD said the players don't have a clue what Kidney wants.

No it shouldn't we finished 4th.

BOD said it in the build up to the game. You'll probably find it on youtube. Also said that Kidney talks a bit at half time, then there's a specific defensive analysis but no specialist attacking analysis done during the game. Not surprising because anyone with a bit of wit and decent view could see what the problems were.

Sin you say that every time on an Ireland thread, can you come up with something new please. That was a 6 nations to forget.

we will do well to finish 4th this year on current form.

dublin_dave wrote:we will do well to finish 4th this year on current form.

Italy away is going to be extremely tough and Scotland can easily beat us on current form.

[quote="rodders"]

Sin é wrote:
Les Kiss has had nothing to do with rugby league for at least 20 years. Since then he has been coaching rugby union with SA, Stormers, Bulls, Cats, Warratahs, Australia A and Aus U21s. He has also coached in Japan.

It should be noted that Ireland were the top try scoring nation in the last 6Ns.

Link please to where BOD said the players don't have a clue what Kidney wants.

No it shouldn't we finished 4th.

Our problem in the 6Ns was in the last game with the Greg Feek coached Irish scrum (the only 6Ns game we didn't score any tries in).

BOD said it in the build up to the game. You'll probably find it on youtube. Also said that Kidney talks a bit at half time, then there's a specific defensive analysis but no specialist attacking analysis done during the game. Not surprising because anyone with a bit of wit and decent view could see what the problems were.

How can I find it on youtube if I haven't a clue where, when or why. Can you not at least say what programme it was on and approx. what time if it If it was on BBC, maybe you might look it up as the BBCplayer is not accessible to us in the ROI and quote exactly what he said.

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

rodders wrote:

Sin é wrote:
Les Kiss has had nothing to do with rugby league for at least 20 years. Since then he has been coaching rugby union with SA, Stormers, Bulls, Cats, Warratahs, Australia A and Aus U21s. He has also coached in Japan.

It should be noted that Ireland were the top try scoring nation in the last 6Ns.

Link please to where BOD said the players don't have a clue what Kidney wants.

No it shouldn't we finished 4th.

BOD said it in the build up to the game. You'll probably find it on youtube. Also said that Kidney talks a bit at half time, then there's a specific defensive analysis but no specialist attacking analysis done during the game. Not surprising because anyone with a bit of wit and decent view could see what the problems were.

What's our try scoring record against teams in the top 8 of the world rankings?

Way better than Leinster's in this season's Heineken Cup.

[quote="Sin é"]

rodders wrote:

Sin é wrote:
Les Kiss has had nothing to do with rugby league for at least 20 years. Since then he has been coaching rugby union with SA, Stormers, Bulls, Cats, Warratahs, Australia A and Aus U21s. He has also coached in Japan.

It should be noted that Ireland were the top try scoring nation in the last 6Ns.

Link please to where BOD said the players don't have a clue what Kidney wants.

No it shouldn't we finished 4th.

Our problem in the 6Ns was in the last game with the Greg Feek coached Irish scrum (the only 6Ns game we didn't score any tries in).

BOD said it in the build up to the game. You'll probably find it on youtube. Also said that Kidney talks a bit at half time, then there's a specific defensive analysis but no specialist attacking analysis done during the game. Not surprising because anyone with a bit of wit and decent view could see what the problems were.

How can I find it on youtube if I haven't a clue where, when or why. Can you not at least say what programme it was on and approx. what time if it If it was on BBC, maybe you might look it up as the BBCplayer is not accessible to us in the ROI and quote exactly what he said.

Are you kidding me Sin. Dont even try to suggest Greg Feek is a bad coach. He has done wonders with the Leinster scrum. We all know why the scrum went bad. That shouldnt happen again with 23 man squads.

MrsP wrote:Pete,

Just had a wee search for that Bod quote that Eirebilly mentioned.

It was just as the teams were running out.

Gabby: Declan Kidney under pressure with less than a year to go on his contract. Is he a man that let's that pressure effect the way he performs? I mean, he always seems very contained when we see him at his post match interviews.

BO'D: Yeah, I've been involved in teams with Declan for the guts of 10 years and I'm still trying to work him out. (Sounds like it was said with a little smile!)He definately has his own way of doing things but this week he'll definately have revved the boys up for a proud performance and a gutsy performance and if we can get at least parity up front then I think that could set the foundations for our backline to do something...

If we are talking about what BOD said in the prematch thing then he most certainly did not say that the the players don't have a clue what Kidney wants.

See above for a transcript for those who can't watch it on the BBC iplayer. Fot those who can it was a throw away comment in response to Gabby Logan and was said just after the players had appeared on the pitch.

You're spinning your wheels man. Greg Feek coached scrum? You can't deflect blame onto Leinster forever, I think everyone sees through you but sooner or later you're just going to be forced to admit we're not cutting it in attack. That we look poorly coached. That we're not delivering what we are capable of.

LeinsterFan4life wrote:

rodders wrote:

Sin é wrote:
Les Kiss has had nothing to do with rugby league for at least 20 years. Since then he has been coaching rugby union with SA, Stormers, Bulls, Cats, Warratahs, Australia A and Aus U21s. He has also coached in Japan.

It should be noted that Ireland were the top try scoring nation in the last 6Ns.

Link please to where BOD said the players don't have a clue what Kidney wants.

No it shouldn't we finished 4th.

BOD said it in the build up to the game. You'll probably find it on youtube. Also said that Kidney talks a bit at half time, then there's a specific defensive analysis but no specialist attacking analysis done during the game. Not surprising because anyone with a bit of wit and decent view could see what the problems were.

Sin you say that every time on an Ireland thread, can you come up with something new please. That was a 6 nations to forget.

People say that the attack is a problem because Kiss is supposedly a defence coach. Wayne Smith was the attack/backs coach of the all blacks, he is now the defence coach of the Chiefs. People see those jobs as interchangeable.

Our attack wasn't the problem in the 6Ns. (Our scrum and defence was).

Would you like to comment on our attacking play in the last four test matches?

Would you like to assess how our attack is coached based on our last test match, perhaps?

Sin é wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:

rodders wrote:

Sin é wrote:
Les Kiss has had nothing to do with rugby league for at least 20 years. Since then he has been coaching rugby union with SA, Stormers, Bulls, Cats, Warratahs, Australia A and Aus U21s. He has also coached in Japan.

It should be noted that Ireland were the top try scoring nation in the last 6Ns.

Link please to where BOD said the players don't have a clue what Kidney wants.

No it shouldn't we finished 4th.

BOD said it in the build up to the game. You'll probably find it on youtube. Also said that Kidney talks a bit at half time, then there's a specific defensive analysis but no specialist attacking analysis done during the game. Not surprising because anyone with a bit of wit and decent view could see what the problems were.

Sin you say that every time on an Ireland thread, can you come up with something new please. That was a 6 nations to forget.

People say that the attack is a problem because Kiss is supposedly a defence coach. Wayne Smith was the attack/backs coach of the all blacks, he is now the defence coach of the Chiefs. People see those jobs as interchangeable.

Our attack wasn't the problem in the 6Ns. (Our scrum and defence was).

Ok then if thats what you think then fair enough. Your wrong but ok.
Our attack is without a doubt a major problem now though. It was embarrasing agianst SA.

LeinsterFan4life wrote:Are you kidding me Sin. Dont even try to suggest Greg Feek is a bad coach. He has done wonders with the Leinster scrum. We all know why the scrum went bad. That shouldnt happen again with 23 man squads.

I'm not saying he is a bad coach, but you have to admit the scrum went wrong against England. Why wasn't Court up to speed at TH. He had him for about 6 weeks coaching at that stage.

If you are blaming coaches for poor performances, Feek should be in there as well.

Sin é wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:Are you kidding me Sin. Dont even try to suggest Greg Feek is a bad coach. He has done wonders with the Leinster scrum. We all know why the scrum went bad. That shouldnt happen again with 23 man squads.

I'm not saying he is a bad coach, but you have to admit the scrum went wrong against England. Why wasn't Court up to speed at TH. He had him for about 6 weeks coaching at that stage.

If you are blaming coaches for poor performances, Feek should be in there as well.

Ye 6 weeks is usually long enough to get a guy up to speed at TH. I mean thats why props usually peak in their late 20s to 30s after all.

Come on Sin your making yourself look stupid now.

MrsP wrote:


If we are talking about what BOD said in the prematch thing then he most certainly did not say that the the players don't have a clue what Kidney wants.

See above for a transcript for those who can't watch it on the BBC iplayer. Fot those who can it was a throw away comment in response to Gabby Logan and was said just after the players had appeared on the pitch.

Thank you Mrs P. for that.

Certainly the decision to pick Court at tighthead at all was transparently wrong and whoever made that call- Kidney or Feek- needs to hold his hand up.

But I would like you to answer the question; you've quoted the try scoring stats in the Six Nations as evidence we don't have a problem with attack. Do you feel we have attacked well in the last four test matches and if so, why?

ah the old ireland have no scrum argument that the pro deccie media spun after the England game. It was a bad day at the office no more. 23man squads and having Bent and Fitzpatrick in reserve should ensure we don't see a repeat of that mauling

It was used as a smokescreen to distract from our utter incompetence as an attacking force. We are at the level of Italy and Scotland when it comes to backplay at the moment. I cannot see how it will improve in the current set up with Murray as a shoe in at scrum half regardless of his form.

Hope Marshall and Jackson get a go at the weekend

Notch wrote:You're spinning your wheels man. Greg Feek coached scrum? You can't deflect blame onto Leinster forever, I think everyone sees through you but sooner or later you're just going to be forced to admit we're not cutting it in attack. That we look poorly coached. That we're not delivering what we are capable of.

I'm hoping that some day you will see that we don't have the players and thats why. Ireland is going through transition and probably won't come out the other end for another 4/5 years when the young Henderson & Hanrahan can show the way (and they are no POC & BOD).

Sin é wrote:
People say that the attack is a problem because Kiss is supposedly a defence coach. Wayne Smith was the attack/backs coach of the all blacks, he is now the defence coach of the Chiefs. People see those jobs as interchangeable.

Our attack wasn't the problem in the 6Ns. (Our scrum and defence was).

No our attack is a problem because Kidney is head coach and picks the team and supposedly tactics. He's moved our best coach, along with Feek, from his specialist position into one he knows nothing about.

Kiss is not the problem with our attack but he certainly is not the solution.

Given the ease with which Pienaar got over under the sticks from a ruck pick up, and how comfortably the BOKs breached our gainline, then maybe Foley's credentials at this level need to be looked at to.

Sin é wrote:

Notch wrote:You're spinning your wheels man. Greg Feek coached scrum? You can't deflect blame onto Leinster forever, I think everyone sees through you but sooner or later you're just going to be forced to admit we're not cutting it in attack. That we look poorly coached. That we're not delivering what we are capable of.

I'm hoping that some day you will see that we don't have the players and thats why. Ireland is going through transition and probably won't come out the other end for another 4/5 years when the young Henderson & Hanrahan can show the way (and they are no POC & BOD).

I love how willing you are to accept failure despite the fact we've as much talent at our disposal as the Welsh. Amazing the difference a competent coach and a gameplan makes.

I defy you to look at our performances in the last five tests and say there are no areas we could play better with the same personnel.

GET HIM NOTCH!

ok sin lets leave injuries aside here. are you saying the below sides natural level is say 4th in the 6nations and we are doing as well as we possibly can given our "limited" resources:

Kearney,Bowe,Drico,Darcy,Earls,Sexton,Reddan,Heaslip,Sob,Ferris,OConnell,Ryan,Ross,Best,Healy Subs: Court,Bent,Strauss,Tuohy/McCarthy,Henry,Murray,Jackson,McFadden

Not starting a selection debate so just the first 23 that came into my head. Ageing midfield aside i think its a very good side.

I personally think we have the players to at least be having a reasonable tilt at winning the 6 nations given our provinces have beaten the cream of what Europe has to offer at club level regularly over the last 5years.

There is step up of course but its not as much as some make out. Clermont,Toulouse,Leicester,Edinburgh,Ospreys (well maybe a poor choice) are rammed full of international players and are dispatched regularly.

I think the real step up is at management level and Kidney after a promising start has not been able to make it.

As for Henderson and Hanrahan. If they are good enough why should we wait 5 years. Etzebeth is a South African regular and he is the same age as Henderson.

Can people please stop quoting Sin? The ignore button doesn't work if people quote him and I have to read his drivel. It was great over the weekend when he wasn't around. Now he's back and he's managed to turn this thread to crud. Kind of like Declan Kidney of 606v threads. Awk, now that's unfair. Kidney is more intelligent and intelligible. Your mothers would be ashamed, ashamed I said. My mother always taught me not to feed the trolls. Wise words.

Hookisms and Hyperbole wrote:Can people please stop quoting Sin? The ignore button doesn't work if people quote him and I have to read his drivel. It was great over the weekend when he wasn't around. Now he's back and he's managed to turn this thread to crud. Kind of like Declan Kidney of 606v threads. Awk, now that's unfair. Kidney is more intelligent and intelligible. Your mothers would be ashamed, ashamed I said. My mother always taught me not to feed the trolls. Wise words.

+1

rodders wrote:

Sin é wrote:
People say that the attack is a problem because Kiss is supposedly a defence coach. Wayne Smith was the attack/backs coach of the all blacks, he is now the defence coach of the Chiefs. People see those jobs as interchangeable.

Our attack wasn't the problem in the 6Ns. (Our scrum and defence was).

No our attack is a problem because Kidney is head coach and picks the team and supposedly tactics. He's moved our best coach, along with Feek, from his specialist position into one he knows nothing about.

Kiss is not the problem with our attack but he certainly is not the solution.

Given the ease with which Pienaar got over under the sticks from a ruck pick up, and how comfortably the BOKs breached our gainline, then maybe Foley's credentials at this level need to be looked at to.

I know already what you think of Kidney Rods

He hasn't moved Feek from his specialist position. And Les last job was as an attack coach.

At least 4/5 defence coach's head should be on the block if Axel's head should be there (going on the fact that SA have scored at least one try against their last 5 opponents and 5 against the No. 2 Country in the world!

Notch wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Notch wrote:You're spinning your wheels man. Greg Feek coached scrum? You can't deflect blame onto Leinster forever, I think everyone sees through you but sooner or later you're just going to be forced to admit we're not cutting it in attack. That we look poorly coached. That we're not delivering what we are capable of.

I'm hoping that some day you will see that we don't have the players and thats why. Ireland is going through transition and probably won't come out the other end for another 4/5 years when the young Henderson & Hanrahan can show the way (and they are no POC & BOD).

I love how willing you are to accept failure despite the fact we've as much talent at our disposal as the Welsh. Amazing the difference a competent coach and a gameplan makes.

I defy you to look at our performances in the last five tests and say there are no areas we could play better with the same personnel.

Wayne Smith doesn't think we have the same talent at our disposal as the Welsh (and my, didn't they do well at the weekend anyway).

v. SA - if you look at the vid supplied above with Andrew Trimble try against SA in 2006, you will notice at one stage off the back of a scrum, Stringer picks up the ball and hands it to the No. 8 who pushes and run gaining about 10 metres, pulling in about 4 SA defenders. I have never seen Heaslip doing that off the back of a scrum.

V. NZ - test no 3. This test should not have been played after the long season that Ireland had. Completely exhausted and D'Arcy & Heislip were a big miss.

v. NZ - test no. 2. Great performance. A poor reffing decision was the reason we lost.

v. NZ - Test no. 1. Some very uncharacteristic errors from Brian O'Driscoll. I'd put the whole thing down jet lag, fatigue etc.

v. England - Scrum was the major problem. A TH would have made the difference.

Hookisms and Hyperbole wrote:Can people please stop quoting Sin? The ignore button doesn't work if people quote him and I have to read his drivel. It was great over the weekend when he wasn't around. Now he's back and he's managed to turn this thread to crud. Kind of like Declan Kidney of 606v threads. Awk, now that's unfair. Kidney is more intelligent and intelligible. Your mothers would be ashamed, ashamed I said. My mother always taught me not to feed the trolls. Wise words.

Talking about looking for attention. What age are you? Have you no self-control? There is no evidence you read everything you see here, let alone understand it.

Anyone watch Against the Head (RTE2). The Nordies will have a fatwa on Victor Costelloe for dissing Chris Henry!

(Said that DOC should have started for his ability in the lineout and Mike McCarthy put in the backrow instead of Henry).

Victors blind clearly he is stuck in his age where you didn't need a proper 7 that's turns over ball or carries more than anyone in the backrow

neilthom7 wrote:Victors blind clearly he is stuck in his age where you didn't need a proper 7 that's turns over ball or carries more than anyone in the backrow

Victor played in the backrow with Leinster & Ireland with Keith Gleeson (and probably Shane Jennings).

Obviously Ireland have a very limited player pool so can't expect to compete with the big boys. A Slam about every 60 years reflects the country's underlying ability and general lack of depth...

Then again since the game became professional Ireland have been consistently challenging for the 6N and been as high as 3 in the world rankings. Those teams were generally acknowledged to have only a handful of "world class" players in much the same way the current team has. Eddie O'Sullivan wasn't a great coach but it is amazing how the team has gone backwards since he was ousted.

Kidney's problem is that he doesn't know how to run a modern Test team. His approach is to cherry pick all the 'best' players (in his eyes) and hope that they will magically perform when they are introduced to each other. The problem is that Test rugby doesn't allow years of character building mistakes before the team finally gels. Eddie O knew that he had to pick combinations that worked rather than create his own eclectic mix, and that sometimes meant the best individuals didn't fit in with the team plan.

Scotland had the most linebreaks in the last 6N so statistics can be misleading regarding the attacking health of a team. However it was obvious against the Boks that Ireland weren't going to score a try in the first half. Why - because they didn't have the power in the pack to draw in the defence and so there were never any gaps for the backs to exploit. So at halftime and with perfect playing conditions, did Kidney direct the team to adopt the offloading game that the provinces have been playing all season? Apparently not. Instead Meyer told his team to cut out the penalties and so stop Ireland scoring. He further told them to use their physical superiority in the pack to grunt it up and let Pienaar direct the whole thing. Easy peasy.

It is a cop out to say that players who outplay their Welsh, English and French counterparts at club level aren't good enough to do so at Test level. There are enough good Irish players to be better than ninth in the world, and it is high time a coach looked at their strengths and blend the team accordingly.

Notch wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Notch wrote:You're spinning your wheels man. Greg Feek coached scrum? You can't deflect blame onto Leinster forever, I think everyone sees through you but sooner or later you're just going to be forced to admit we're not cutting it in attack. That we look poorly coached. That we're not delivering what we are capable of.

I'm hoping that some day you will see that we don't have the players and thats why. Ireland is going through transition and probably won't come out the other end for another 4/5 years when the young Henderson & Hanrahan can show the way (and they are no POC & BOD).

I love how willing you are to accept failure despite the fact we've as much talent at our disposal as the Welsh. Amazing the difference a competent coach and a gameplan makes.

I defy you to look at our performances in the last five tests and say there are no areas we could play better with the same personnel.

Pathetic isn't it,I will take him off ignore when we get a new coach and our results start to improve within 6 months.I feel supremely confident that if Mike Ruddock takes over we will again become a team that can challenge for the 6 Nations and win 80% + of our home matches.We have more talent at our disposal than any time in Irish rugby history and it's being wasted because the IRFU are too tight to admit they made a mistake appointing Kidney for another term.

He has been promoted to his level of incompetence.

The Great Aukster wrote:Obviously Ireland have a very limited player pool so can't expect to compete with the big boys. A Slam about every 60 years reflects the country's underlying ability and general lack of depth...

Then again since the game became professional Ireland have been consistently challenging for the 6N and been as high as 3 in the world rankings. Those teams were generally acknowledged to have only a handful of "world class" players in much the same way the current team has. Eddie O'Sullivan wasn't a great coach but it is amazing how the team has gone backwards since he was ousted.

Kidney's problem is that he doesn't know how to run a modern Test team. His approach is to cherry pick all the 'best' players (in his eyes) and hope that they will magically perform when they are introduced to each other. The problem is that Test rugby doesn't allow years of character building mistakes before the team finally gels. Eddie O knew that he had to pick combinations that worked rather than create his own eclectic mix, and that sometimes meant the best individuals didn't fit in with the team plan.

Scotland had the most linebreaks in the last 6N so statistics can be misleading regarding the attacking health of a team. However it was obvious against the Boks that Ireland weren't going to score a try in the first half. Why - because they didn't have the power in the pack to draw in the defence and so there were never any gaps for the backs to exploit. So at halftime and with perfect playing conditions, did Kidney direct the team to adopt the offloading game that the provinces have been playing all season? Apparently not. Instead Meyer told his team to cut out the penalties and so stop Ireland scoring. He further told them to use their physical superiority in the pack to grunt it up and let Pienaar direct the whole thing. Easy peasy.

It is a cop out to say that players who outplay their Welsh, English and French counterparts at club level aren't good enough to do so at Test level. There are enough good Irish players to be better than ninth in the world, and it is high time a coach looked at their strengths and blend the team accordingly.

Well said

I'm well aware of who Victor is Sin what I was pointing out is henry had a number of turnovers and carried further than any of our backrow did you maybe think that Victor just didn't want to criticise the great captain Heaslip who in my opinion hasn't done anything great to warrant O'Brien not starting at 8 in quite some time for Ireland.

It is a cop out to say that players who outplay their Welsh, English and French counterparts at club level aren't good enough to do so at Test level.

Remind me again where the Springbok's scrumhalf plays his rugby!

neilthom7 wrote:I'm well aware of who Victor is Sin what I was pointing out is henry had a number of turnovers and carried further than any of our backrow did you maybe think that Victor just didn't want to criticise the great captain Heaslip who in my opinion hasn't done anything great to warrant O'Brien not starting at 8 in quite some time for Ireland.

What he wanted to do was get DOC on the pitch as a better lineout operator than McCarthy, but his physicality was needed. I presume he wanted to retain O'Mahony because he is a decent jumper in the lineout.

stand - your comments about combinations. Kidney does it where he can. For instance the front row was the Leinster one. 2nd row was a combo - but everyone wanted rid of DOC. The backrow usually has a combo of 2 leinster players + Ferris when all is fit.

Some development work is needed for SH as Boss & Reddan are well into their 30s.

Centre combo is generally a Leinster one with a Leinster full back and the wings then are Munster & Ulster.

A lot of second choice players out there on Saturday.

Sin é wrote:

It is a cop out to say that players who outplay their Welsh, English and French counterparts at club level aren't good enough to do so at Test level.

Remind me again where the Springbok's scrumhalf plays his rugby!

...so what?

Notch wrote:

Sin é wrote:

It is a cop out to say that players who outplay their Welsh, English and French counterparts at club level aren't good enough to do so at Test level.

Remind me again where the Springbok's scrumhalf plays his rugby!

...so what?

club level = Irish provinces do well
international level = Ireland doesn't do well

not all players who play for the provinces play for Ireland (so its doesn't follow that just because the provinces do well, Ireland should do well).

Yeah, its true the provinces do have access to other non-Irish players who are influential.

But it's not so much that provinces do well so Ireland should do well, or even about the players at all really. Its that there are very obvious things that Ireland as a team could be doing better, very obvious wrong decisions that are being taken in terms of players being played out of position and an evident lack of gameplan. We could pick the exact same team and do so much better with a few tweaks in how we play, but these have not been addressed in two years.

This is what you continually ignore. Your refusal to actually engage with this is so tiresome...