Irish Analysis and player ratings against S.Africa

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Tough game for sure. Not enjoyable for a neutral I'd say. Credit to S.Africa for coming out in the second half with a different mind set and getting the job done.

Good to see Lansdowne road back at full capacity or close enough. Strauss and Bent played well and it was great to see Strauss sing the anthem.

Anyways here it is:
Watching the game again and looking back at Irish general play to have a look in a bit more detail:

Earls in 2nd minute has a 2 on 1 and kicks it into his opposite number the man he was up against on the inside was their tighthead after good work from Darcy.

Unreal zebo under the high ball, good line kicking too.

Sexton kicking well out of hand early on.

Henry dealing with restarts well.

Murray's box kicks are too far for Ireland to challenge for.

Great turnover by POM. He then messes up a lineout badly.

Irish defensive line not coming up together off Saffa scrum. Doing much better off lineout in defence.

Great Irish scrum. First attacking angle run by Earls and Darcy (dummy switch 12 pop 13) knocked on by Earls. Sexton and POM handed off by Adriaan Strauss.

14th minute Irish go wide from inside their 22 they have the numbers but Earls and Trimble can't continue the continuity so kick it. Poor drawing of men.

First Irish lineout lost.

Fantastic steal from Healy after really good attacking play from S.Africa.

18th min good counterattack and then inside line by Zebo. Poor passing by Murray. Good switch from Sexton to Strauss gets over the gainline. Awful decision by Murray to feed McCarthy who was isolated.

Murray's box kicking improving hugely, another good take from Henry on restart.

Great man and ball tackle by McCarthy slowing SA ball down. Great turnover by Henry.

23min. Darcy has to take Murrays pass over his head and ruins attemp to take it up. McCarthy lays out one defender. Ball gets scrappy and Earls plays awful pass to McCarthy.

26min. Good take by Bowe then Sexton uses quick hands to release Earls on the right wing who steps past Hougaard beautifully but becomes isolated.

28min McCarthy fighting brilliantly in maul then turnover penalty won by Strauss. Quick one taken, Sexton feeds Bowe who makes halfbreak on the inside offloads to Murray who feeds Earls really well. Earls releases Zebo who runs well. Murray's passing poor. Great interchange between Bowe and Zebo and then drive by Healy. Momentum slowed due to murray passing slightly above or slightly behind the runner.

JP gets yellow. Ref tells Heaslip to make sure Sexton overreact.

McCarthy misses lineout, looks like a timing issue.

33min. Scrum penalty to ireland on Ross's side.
Penalty count to now is 4-10
Possession 58-42.

Murray wastes ball inside S.African 10m line by box kicking the ball away when maul doesn't work. Poor decision as Boks are still down to 14.

Lineout off the top, ball going straight to Darcy with Trimble and Sexton running wider lines but ball goes well above Darcy's head and the move breaks down.

Darcy challenges line again but very obvious due to no runners. POM carries well. Good carrying Healy after another poor Murray pass.

Ryan and Heaslip doing very well in lineout now. Good maul started on Ryan and Strauss runs over Lambie, ball goes wide and Earls throws the ball forward and in to touch.

Sexton misses his first kick 39min.

Good take by POM on restart, Heaslip goes to high in to contact and support are too slow.

40min. Great work at the breakdown by Murray who steps but offloads to the wrong side as Bowe was on the other shoulder. Henry then gives away idiotic penalty.

HALF TIME.

Zebo clears well from kickoff.

Henry claims ball and offloads to POM who runs approx 15m left and 3m forward.

Good up and under from Sexton Bowe nearly wins it for the second time.

S.Africa counter and Sexton, Earls and Henry are pushed back in contact, then McCarthy absolutely empties Estebenz.

Healy goes off with suspected concussion, Kilcoyne on. S.Africa go for touch instead of points.

McCarthy doesn't get near Estenbez in lineout but does well defending the maul but S.Africa still going forward. Held up eventually by Bowe and Heaslip.

Heaslip sent to the bin for entry in the maul, looked like Ross or Ryan but ref said that Heaslip was the most recent transgression.

McCarthy and Strauss sack maul again, S.Africa go blind and Murray makes a try saving tackle. Sexton and Darcy weak in contact against Adriaan Strauss then very poor pillar defending by Ryan as Pienaar goes in for the try.

45min. Takes Ireland a while to call lineout (must have been Heaslip's job) but the 5 man works and Trimble is sent up the middle on a switch to mediocre effect. Murray immediately then attacks the blind side which is poorly executed by the team. Murray then kicks the ball far too deep and JP takes ball relatively easily and Ireland end up back on halfway from the mark.

47min. Exact same call is made. 5 man lineout, switch with Trimble. Attack the blindside with Murray switching with POM which would work well if the Boks hadn't seen it 2mins before and be prepared for it. Continuing attacking blind side. Poor passing, Irish guys taking it standing still. Poor cross kick from Sexton and returned with interest and trimble knocks it in to touch by mistake.

DeVilliers runs over Darcy then drags Earls with him. Darcy and Henry don't stand up to lambie physically who wins cheap yards.

Another great tackle by McCarthy and steal by Healy. Ball goes through Earls' hands and then Trimble with the entire backfield unoccupied finds a poor touch just outside the 22 when he could have kicked long.

Ryan and Healy working hard in tackle and ruck. Positive contacts. Darcy misses another tackle then POM gives away a penalty for not releasing the tackled player.

53min. Great lineout take again by Ryan, ball is fed to Sexton then Darcy. S.Africa don't put anyone in ruck but the ball is still slow for some reason. Murray takes a while to get there. Great hands from Zebo releases Bowe on the right. Quicker ball not utilised very well at all. Zebo makes some head way again. Darcy and then Earls both attack the blindside to no gain. Strauss and Healy carry very well. Good continuity play. Murray looks unfit takes a while to get to the ruck and when we go through a few phases he just doesn't get there in time and by the time he does the spaces that the quick ball had created are gone. Penalty eventually conceded.
This phase of possession lasted over 3 minutes but we only made it from halfway to just before their 22 yard line. Most yards made by Bowe and Zebo in this attack.

57min. Great maul defence (Healy, McCarthy) but DeVilliers gets over the gainline and supplies quick ball far too easily. Great turnover by Strauss and McCarthy.

58min. Good lineout by McCarthy and nice line running by Darcy and Sexton to put Sexton in the secondary but the S.African defence read it and Sexton has to throw a high pass to McFadden (now on the wing) which kills momentum. Great carry Heaslip and Zebo uses great feet to make yards. Murray and Sexton give hospital passes to POM and McCarthy respectively, lose of yards/momentum.

Excellent feet by Earls to make a halfbreak but he gets caught and doesn't have the strength to stop himself being driven back by Hougaard.

Sexton misses kick from 55m.

More good lineout work but poor contact in midfield. Fringe attack by forwards is very good. Ball becomes far too slow.

64mins. Ross concedes first penalty in the scrum.

POM concedes penalty for taking man in the air. Missed kick and cleared by Zebo. POM knocks on the high bomb after a few phases McCarthy wins the ball back with a huge tackle. Ross concedes another penalty at the scrum won by McCarthy.

72mins. Better scrum with Bent and DOC in. On the second scrum he wins a penalty.

73min. Quick ball from reddan see's Healy go through 3 tackles and then Bent through 2. Negative carries by Ryan stunt momentum and ball lost when ball slows further.

76min. Promising scrum then carry by Heaslip. Good move off the back but Zebo unfortunately loses ball in contact.

79min. Strange seeing the way ROG and Sexton are playing. Insead of all the runners coming off the 10 position they are now running off the 12 position. ROG is almost acting like a second scrumhalf, he gets the ball from Reddan and feeds Sexton who then makes the call on who receives the ball next. We are missing a 12 in this passage of play but we have two 10's which gets the ball wider but also limits the space for second phase possession.

80min. Lineout off top from Heaslip, play in the midfield, Bowe is caught from Zebo's nice inside pass. Play slows. ROG goes blind and chips the ball on for Henderson to chase.

Ireland lose the game.

1-Worst performance you have ever seen
2-Very very bad
3-Bad
4-Below par
5-Average
6-Above average
7-Good
8-Very good
9-Excellent
10-Best performance you've ever seen

Healy- 7.
Good carrying and did well in the rucks and scrummaging.

Strauss- 7.
Some good steals. Lineout went well after few blips. Carried well at times.

Ross- 5.
Some good and bad carries. Still quite ponderous. Good in scrum but unfit.

Ryan- 5.
Poor defence for try. Good lineout. Not much carrying and not enforcing in rucks.

McCarthy- 8.5
Huge workrate on small things. Ruck, maul and tackle was outstanding.

POM- 3.
Not physical enough. Poor discipline. Won a turnover or two I think though.

Henry- 5.5
He made some good carries off restart. Good in ruck. Underpowered at times though. Was rarely a link either.

Heaslip- 4.
Unlucky to be sin binned. Good in defence and lineout but not much in attack.

Murray- 3.
His accuracy of passing was atrocious. Service marginally quicker. Box kicks ok. Decision making poor.

Sexton- 5.5.
Started the game very well but couldn't kick on. Not as great in defence as before, passed well and goal kicking was ok. Will be disappointed.

Trimble- 4.
Didn't get used anywhere near enough. Made a few very basic mistakes but Ireland really need to get the ball in to his hands more often.

Darcy- 5.
Carried well at the start and his defence was good too. Later in the game he really seemed to lose steam. Murray's pass did him no favours.

Earls- 4.5.
Didn't get over the gainline often enough. In wider channels used great feet. His defence was good but never kept his man from getting over the gainline.

Bowe- 7.5
Came off his wing really well and looked for work. Linked brilliantly with Zebo. Nearly won some offensive high balls. Defended well.

Zebo- 8.
He was very good. Very dangerous runner and wasn't underpowered against the Boks. High ball and kicking was good. Great game at 15.

Positives:
1) Scrum was excellent overall
2) Rucking was pretty good in parts as was defence.
3) I thought the lineout was good.
4) McCarthy, Zebo, Bowe, Healy.

Negatives:
1) This team doesn't know how to attack.
2) Maul defence.
3) Mental strength.
4) Murray, Earls, POM.

I am confused by a few things.

A) Why we called the same play twice. It was a phase play idea (the opposite of playing with your heads up) and I was really disappointed that Ryan, Sexton, POM and Henry as the leaders on the pitch in Heaslip's absence didn't do the sensible thing and call a different one.

B) How we are so toothless. earls' break aside we never really looked dangerous and even that was very isolated. Bowe and Zebo did well and looked really good at certain points but we don't seem to know "how to attack". For a side that scored the most tries in the 6N we never once looked remotely like scoring yesterday.

C) Decision making. Rog kicking it in the last play. Madness. Why was he even on? Very disappointing.

D) Physicality was a big issue we just couldn't deal with them once they got out of second gear. You rarely see Sexton getting pushed back very far, he was really strong against SBW for instance but the Saffa's were dominating everyone other than McCarthy and Healy really.

E) We need a proper scrumhalf.

What you guys think? Feel free to vent away about any points I've made or any you have.

Ireland play dumb rugby. The worst thing that happened to Kidney in his career was the ELVs came in. Since then Ireland have been on a downward spiral.

Kidney picks a mobile pack against the Boks but the overall attack is so blunt its a waste of time. They might have well gone for size and played a territorial game.

As much as I'd like to see changes, the main problem by far is the Irish attack. They literally look clueless. BOD admited a few months back that they were confused. It was crying out for the attack to be more varied but they kept doing the same thing over and over again, like robots. Why no kicks in behind the defense? Get them turning and make them think. ROG did it but what a time to do it. And having ROG on ment Ireland had even less running options when they needed a try.

In my opinion, Kidney's whole rugby philosophy (which brought him a lot of success) and Ireland's current crop of players, are not very compatible. And any flirtations Deccie has made with attacking rugby (Scotland 2010) have been just as unsuccessful as when he sticks to what he knows. He's not the man for the job.

But we also have a huge gap where BOD once was. The guy was a genius. A freakish combination of attack, defence and inspirational leadership. Even when he plays again for Ireland, he won't be the BOD of the mid 00's. Back then, we won when he played, and we generally lost when he was injured.

And now without him, our midfield is utterly bereft of any spark whatsoever. Our pack generally huffs and puffs and competes well enough. But Murray/Sexton/D'arcy/Earls are creating almost nothing against the top teams. How much is the coaches fault and how much is it the players fault? I don't know. But we have a serious problem in attack. We look like we don't know what we're doing. The team don't even look like they believe they can score. There are absolutely no idea's. I don't even blame ROG for his chip because we were going nowhere. He put us out of our misery.

I'd replace Murray with someone else. Anyone.
I'd put Earls on the wing where he's very good.
I'd get Bowe or Fitzgerald into the 13 jersey.
I'd retire ROG, and start Madigan at 10.
I'd play Sexton at 12 until he promises to play like he does for Leinster at 10.
I'd ruthlessly drop anyone who kicks the ball away when he shouldn't; or doesn't offload when he should.

I'd rather constantly lose playing attacking rugby than constantly lose playing Kidney rugby. Forget about the rankings. We pretty much deserve to be a 3rd seed anyway so who cares? Let's just change what's obviously not working and maybe we can at least start enjoying it again.

P.S.
I told yiz Heaslip was not captain material.

Feckless Rogue wrote: I'd replace Murray with someone else. Anyone.
I'd put Earls on the wing where he's very good.
I'd get Bowe or Fitzgerald into the 13 jersey.
I'd retire ROG, and start Madigan at 10.
I'd play Sexton at 12 until he promises to play like he does for Leinster at 10.
I'd ruthlessly drop anyone who kicks the ball away when he shouldn't; or doesn't offload when he should.

I'd rather constantly lose playing attacking rugby than constantly lose playing Kidney rugby. Forget about the rankings. We pretty much deserve to be a 3rd seed anyway so who cares? Let's just change what's obviously not working and maybe we can at least start enjoying it again.

P.S.
I told yiz Heaslip was not captain material.

I have been saying this for some time now. I honestly believe that Madigan is the better option at 10 than Sexton right now. The plus is, Sexton can be a very good 12.

LeinsterFan4life wrote:

The Great Aukster wrote:Obviously Ireland have a very limited player pool so can't expect to compete with the big boys. A Slam about every 60 years reflects the country's underlying ability and general lack of depth...

Then again since the game became professional Ireland have been consistently challenging for the 6N and been as high as 3 in the world rankings. Those teams were generally acknowledged to have only a handful of "world class" players in much the same way the current team has. Eddie O'Sullivan wasn't a great coach but it is amazing how the team has gone backwards since he was ousted.

Kidney's problem is that he doesn't know how to run a modern Test team. His approach is to cherry pick all the 'best' players (in his eyes) and hope that they will magically perform when they are introduced to each other. The problem is that Test rugby doesn't allow years of character building mistakes before the team finally gels. Eddie O knew that he had to pick combinations that worked rather than create his own eclectic mix, and that sometimes meant the best individuals didn't fit in with the team plan.

Scotland had the most linebreaks in the last 6N so statistics can be misleading regarding the attacking health of a team. However it was obvious against the Boks that Ireland weren't going to score a try in the first half. Why - because they didn't have the power in the pack to draw in the defence and so there were never any gaps for the backs to exploit. So at halftime and with perfect playing conditions, did Kidney direct the team to adopt the offloading game that the provinces have been playing all season? Apparently not. Instead Meyer told his team to cut out the penalties and so stop Ireland scoring. He further told them to use their physical superiority in the pack to grunt it up and let Pienaar direct the whole thing. Easy peasy.

It is a cop out to say that players who outplay their Welsh, English and French counterparts at club level aren't good enough to do so at Test level. There are enough good Irish players to be better than ninth in the world, and it is high time a coach looked at their strengths and blend the team accordingly.

Well said

Seconded. Great post Aukster .

rodders wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:

The Great Aukster wrote:Obviously Ireland have a very limited player pool so can't expect to compete with the big boys. A Slam about every 60 years reflects the country's underlying ability and general lack of depth...

Then again since the game became professional Ireland have been consistently challenging for the 6N and been as high as 3 in the world rankings. Those teams were generally acknowledged to have only a handful of "world class" players in much the same way the current team has. Eddie O'Sullivan wasn't a great coach but it is amazing how the team has gone backwards since he was ousted.

Kidney's problem is that he doesn't know how to run a modern Test team. His approach is to cherry pick all the 'best' players (in his eyes) and hope that they will magically perform when they are introduced to each other. The problem is that Test rugby doesn't allow years of character building mistakes before the team finally gels. Eddie O knew that he had to pick combinations that worked rather than create his own eclectic mix, and that sometimes meant the best individuals didn't fit in with the team plan.

Scotland had the most linebreaks in the last 6N so statistics can be misleading regarding the attacking health of a team. However it was obvious against the Boks that Ireland weren't going to score a try in the first half. Why - because they didn't have the power in the pack to draw in the defence and so there were never any gaps for the backs to exploit. So at halftime and with perfect playing conditions, did Kidney direct the team to adopt the offloading game that the provinces have been playing all season? Apparently not. Instead Meyer told his team to cut out the penalties and so stop Ireland scoring. He further told them to use their physical superiority in the pack to grunt it up and let Pienaar direct the whole thing. Easy peasy.

It is a cop out to say that players who outplay their Welsh, English and French counterparts at club level aren't good enough to do so at Test level. There are enough good Irish players to be better than ninth in the world, and it is high time a coach looked at their strengths and blend the team accordingly.

Well said

Seconded. Great post Aukster .

Good summary. That last line is crucial in my opinion.

Just to play devils advocate (in order for me to better understand where someone is coming from I’ll try to imagine I have their opinion).

Ireland don’t have players who are good enough to beat South Africa, Wales, England, France or New Zealand.

We also scored more tries than anyone else in a tournament 8 months ago so our attack coach is not a problem, it’s the players.

The step from provincial rugby to international rugby is so large that good players become bad, and dreadful players become world beaters.

If Wayne Smith says it, it must be true.
Nah, I’m still not buying it….

Wayne Smith is getting far too much press recently

You would swear that our provinces were rammed to the hilt with foreigners for their Heiniken cup wins.

Saying we do not have the player to compete with NZ and France on a regular basis is pragmatic. Saying we do not have the players to compete with England,Wales,Australia and South Africa is absolute loser talk

Looking forward to the 6 nations it would be a might achievement to avoid the wooden spoon mighty

Mickado wrote:Just to play devils advocate (in order for me to better understand where someone is coming from I’ll try to imagine I have their opinion).

Ireland don’t have players who are good enough to beat South Africa, Wales, England, France or New Zealand.

We also scored more tries than anyone else in a tournament 8 months ago so our attack coach is not a problem, it’s the players.

The step from provincial rugby to international rugby is so large that good players become bad, and dreadful players become world beaters.

If Wayne Smith says it, it must be true.
Nah, I’m still not buying it….

What Wayne Smith said was without Brian O'Driscoll & Paul O'Connell, Ireland are fairly ordinary. From a leadership point of view, losing those two is massive. All good teams have one or two special players.

Take out the next layer of players like SOB & Ferris, throw in an aging ROG & D'Arcy and the future doesn't look too bright.

General consensus from Bernard Jackman analysis last night was that after the first 40 mins, Ireland lost their shape. The panelists put that down to inexperience and lack of leadership.

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:Wayne Smith is getting far too much press recently

Well, he is a top coach - the type of coach some of you think will be dying to coach Ireland once kidders contract is up

dublin_dave wrote:You would swear that our provinces were rammed to the hilt with foreigners for their Heiniken cup wins.

Saying we do not have the player to compete with NZ and France on a regular basis is pragmatic. Saying we do not have the players to compete with England,Wales,Australia and South Africa is absolute loser talk

Looking forward to the 6 nations it would be a might achievement to avoid the wooden spoon mighty

Munster would not have won their two Heineken Cups without Trevor Halstead (only NIQ starter in 2006). It wasn't that he was a really special player - it was that he filled vital position that Munster couldn't fill. In 2008 the key player was Rua Tipoki. There were a lot better players in the two teams than those two, but they were the two problem positions.

Similar story for their first HCup. Rocky Elsom made it happen for them - SOB stepped up to the mark and filled the Rocky void.
Leinster brought in Hines then to cover for Mal. They were not able to replace him internally and had to bring in Brad Thorn. Its going to be an interesting year for Leinster to see what they do to manage their lock situation.

Ireland can't do any of these things when they lose players like Ferris/SOB or lose Paul O'Connell's leadership.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/20310010?

Saying that Leinster wouldn't have won the HC without Thorn when he only played 2 games is a bit sensationalist.

:sin scurries off to find a passage from Donal Lenihan or Neil Francis where they say we couldn't have won it without him:

Mickado wrote:Saying that Leinster wouldn't have won the HC without Thorn when he only played 2 games is a bit sensationalist.

:sin scurries off to find a passage from Donal Lenihan or Neil Francis where they say we couldn't have won it without him:

He was only needed for one really (Clermont).

By the way, he played in 3 Heineken Cup games - v. Cardiff, v. Clermont & v. Ulster.

They put it down to a lack of leadership, but we've seen all the same problems in the team with O'Driscoll and/or O'Connell there. There have been plenty of awful performances with those two in the side over the last three years.

Mickado wrote:Saying that Leinster wouldn't have won the HC without Thorn when he only played 2 games is a bit sensationalist.

:sin scurries off to find a passage from Donal Lenihan or Neil Francis where they say we couldn't have won it without him:

You know we probably wouldn't have won it without Thorn.Equally we wouldn't have won it without Healy,Kearney,Sexton,BoD,SoB,Reddan etc...

Would Toulouse have won in 2010 without Byron Kelleher,what about Wasps in 2007 without Reddan and Ibanez or the Tigers in 2002 without Geordan Murphy?

Notch wrote:They put it down to a lack of leadership, but we've seen all the same problems in the team with O'Driscoll and/or O'Connell there. There have been plenty of awful performances with those two in the side over the last three years.

That's very true,whatever team he picks Kidney can't get a decent performance out of them more than once in a blue moon.I have nothing left to add to this debate as my hopes for Irish rugby are on hold until the Kidney clock hits zero.

Notch wrote:They put it down to a lack of leadership, but we've seen all the same problems in the team with O'Driscoll and/or O'Connell there. There have been plenty of awful performances with those two in the side over the last three years.

Since the last Lions tour, one or other of them has been missing and if not missing carrying an injury.

Brian O'Driscoll was carrying an injury for the world cup (came home to a shoulder operation).

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

Mickado wrote:Saying that Leinster wouldn't have won the HC without Thorn when he only played 2 games is a bit sensationalist.

:sin scurries off to find a passage from Donal Lenihan or Neil Francis where they say we couldn't have won it without him:

You know we probably wouldn't have won it without Thorn.Equally we wouldn't have won it without Healy,Kearney,Sexton,BoD,SoB,Reddan etc...

Would Toulouse have won in 2010 without Byron Kelleher,what about Wasps in 2007 without Reddan and Ibanez or the Tigers in 2002 without Geordan Murphy?

Read my post again

Munster would not have won their two Heineken Cups without Trevor Halstead (only NIQ starter in 2006). It wasn't that he was a really special player - it was that he filled vital position that Munster couldn't fill. In 2008 the key player was Rua Tipoki. There were a lot better players in the two teams than those two, but they were the two problem positions.

Similarly Leinster ......

Hard to know what to say because, surprisingly, I don't feel like putting the boot in anymore.

You criticise all aspects over and over and it makes no difference, all you end up doing is needlessly attacking players and needlessly attacking coaches....and repeating the same criticisms over and over. It's all become boring; - the after-match inquests - the players that would change it, the players that need to retire, the coach that can't hack it, the know-all journalists who give their performance scores... etc, etc. Boring.

So... I'm not going to blame individual players and I'm not going to blame Kidney. They are doing their best - as a unit - all of them. They are doing their best.

Some will tell me it ain't so - that is not the best Ireland can do. I'll repeat it is the best this Irish unit ,with the selected players, with the given coaches and with the inbuilt mental philosophy that Ireland bring to each game because of the particular unit dynamic that currently exists - yes, that's the best this Irish unit can do.

Would it all be so much better with a different coaching team or very different player selections? That's the future - nobody knows whether it would be better or whether it would be worse.

We have a present; and the current Irish set up are going as far with it as they can.... yes, it needs changing because the present isn't productive enough to support the idea that the risk of change is too great.

Without blaming any individual then for the continuing inevitability of the present - Ireland needs change, not of individual players or strategy, it unfortunately needs the inevitable 'new era' change - for good or bad. If we have to blame anything, let's blame fate itself.

And Sin E never stop winding people up.

Best ignored. Please stop quoting him. He moonlights as one "munstermicko" don't you know.

Anyway, the way Kidney runs the "show" can be summed up in his insistence on giving Ronan O'GoHome CHEAP CAPS.

Yes, cheap caps others are more deserving of, least alone Irish Rugby.

I am a member on several French speaking forums (cypervulcans to name one) and the French think that Kidney is trying to be humorous putting this joke on the pitch for more CHEAP CAPS game after game.

They are not stupid. Most French fans I speak with know the Rabo and speak of Jackson and Madigan but cannot understand how inept Turnip Head Kidney is.

It is self serving, cute hoor (time to change your name, NOTCH), ignorant, jobs for the lads attitude which is ruining this team. Unless Kidney gets the BOOT.

NO MORE CHEAP O'GoHome CAPS !!!

I mean, everyone agrees how Munster is struggling. Yet O'GoHome can only make their bench....

Is Kidney trying to win a bet? There is form on that score ..... didn't O'GoHome have an issue with the gg's??

Sin é wrote:General consensus from Bernard Jackman analysis last night was that after the first 40 mins, Ireland lost their shape. The panelists put that down to inexperience and lack of leadership.

The problem with that is that we didn't have any shape in the first half either. We got lucky because the springboks didn't waken up for 35 minutes.

Even in the first half we manufactured nothing and repeadedly got penalised as our ball carriers were getting isolated and struggling to break the gainline.

The writing was on the wall after 30 minutes.

Kidney is the guy in the stands with the overall view and video analysis, it's his job to communicate what is going on tactially and make changes, not the captain or fly half or anyone else.

Mickado wrote:Just to play devils advocate (in order for me to better understand where someone is coming from I’ll try to imagine I have their opinion).

Ireland don’t have players who are good enough to beat South Africa, Wales, England, France or New Zealand.

We also scored more tries than anyone else in a tournament 8 months ago so our attack coach is not a problem, it’s the players.

The step from provincial rugby to international rugby is so large that good players become bad, and dreadful players become world beaters.

If Wayne Smith says it, it must be true.
Nah, I’m still not buying it….

You see those arguments all the time. The only thing it proves is Ireland are thee most inconsistent team in world rugby. Why is that? It comes down to the coach. Kidney is very inconsistent and very consistent. Its hard to get your head around that and no wonder.

To me Kidneys greatest flaw is he has no overall strategy. He hires coaches and lets them get on with their area. The Irish play isn't very joined up as a result of no overall strategy. Team selection seems to be the same.

rodders wrote:

Sin é wrote:General consensus from Bernard Jackman analysis last night was that after the first 40 mins, Ireland lost their shape. The panelists put that down to inexperience and lack of leadership.

The problem with that is that we didn't have any shape in the first half either. We got lucky because the springboks didn't waken up for 35 minutes.

Even in the first half we manufactured nothing and repeadedly got penalised as our ball carriers were getting isolated and struggling to break the gainline.

The writing was on the wall after 30 minutes.

Kidney is the guy in the stands with the overall view and video analysis, it's his job to communicate what is going on tactially and make changes, not the captain or fly half or anyone else.

I don't know if you watched Against the Head (its on the RTE player), but the examples that Jackman showed Ireland playing with width. They were punch drunk from the physicality of the Boks and did lose their shape.

Now if BOD (or ROG for that matter) were on the pitch, they'd be telling the backs what to do, where to go, etc.

If POC was playing, we'd be winning all our lineouts and possibly stealing one or two which is as important as winning a scrum psychologically. Ireland score most their trys from lineouts which gives our backs a bit more space to operate in.

Kidney is the man who does have the overall view and has the video analysis. But he can't replace some players like-for-like (Ferris, SOB, POC). Hope you were not one of the ones giving him stick for selecting McCarthy over Tuohy last week!

profitius wrote:

Mickado wrote:Just to play devils advocate (in order for me to better understand where someone is coming from I’ll try to imagine I have their opinion).

Ireland don’t have players who are good enough to beat South Africa, Wales, England, France or New Zealand.

We also scored more tries than anyone else in a tournament 8 months ago so our attack coach is not a problem, it’s the players.

The step from provincial rugby to international rugby is so large that good players become bad, and dreadful players become world beaters.

If Wayne Smith says it, it must be true.
Nah, I’m still not buying it….

You see those arguments all the time. The only thing it proves is Ireland are thee most inconsistent team in world rugby. Why is that? It comes down to the coach. Kidney is very inconsistent and very consistent. Its hard to get your head around that and no wonder.

To me Kidneys greatest flaw is he has no overall strategy. He hires coaches and lets them get on with their area. The Irish play isn't very joined up as a result of no overall strategy. Team selection seems to be the same.

Nonesense. Kidney has to try and put a plan together to suit the players he has at his disposal. Unlike provincial/club level, he can't bring in a player to plug a whole (a la CJ Stander for Munster, Pienaar for Ulster, Thorn for Leinster, quite a few in the Connacht team).

Its also interesting to note that Wayne Smith commented in a blog that he could see what the French gameplan was! (implying that he could see what the game plan was for the other 6Ns teams).

Sin é wrote:

profitius wrote:

Mickado wrote:Just to play devils advocate (in order for me to better understand where someone is coming from I’ll try to imagine I have their opinion).

Ireland don’t have players who are good enough to beat South Africa, Wales, England, France or New Zealand.

We also scored more tries than anyone else in a tournament 8 months ago so our attack coach is not a problem, it’s the players.

The step from provincial rugby to international rugby is so large that good players become bad, and dreadful players become world beaters.

If Wayne Smith says it, it must be true.
Nah, I’m still not buying it….

You see those arguments all the time. The only thing it proves is Ireland are thee most inconsistent team in world rugby. Why is that? It comes down to the coach. Kidney is very inconsistent and very consistent. Its hard to get your head around that and no wonder.

To me Kidneys greatest flaw is he has no overall strategy. He hires coaches and lets them get on with their area. The Irish play isn't very joined up as a result of no overall strategy. Team selection seems to be the same.

Nonesense. Kidney has to try and put a plan together to suit the players he has at his disposal. Unlike provincial/club level, he can't bring in a player to plug a whole (a la CJ Stander for Munster, Pienaar for Ulster, Thorn for Leinster, quite a few in the Connacht team).

Its also interesting to note that Wayne Smith commented in a blog that he could see what the French gameplan was! (implying that he could see what the game plan was for the other 6Ns teams).

It doesnt matter what players we have on the pitch so long as Kidney is coach. Even Dan Carter wouldnt be able to do anything in this current setup. Dont you understand that there is no sturcture at all in our play. No matter who we have on the pitch.

Sin é wrote: Hope you were not one of the ones giving him stick for selecting McCarthy over Tuohy last week!

I'm still giving him stick for it this week Sin

Sin é wrote:
Nonesense. Kidney has to try and put a plan together to suit the players he has at his disposal. Unlike provincial/club level, he can't bring in a player to plug a whole (a la CJ Stander for Munster, Pienaar for Ulster, Thorn for Leinster, quite a few in the Connacht team).

If this was the great big issue you say it is, how come the second best SH in the country is the so called 'hole', Ulster have 'plugged'. And only second best to potentially the best scrum-half in the world.

The IRFU don't allow all four provinces to have NIQs in the same positions for this reason. You can't use that to excuse Kidney, the safeguards are in place. There are enough good players in each position to be doing better. Simple as that.

Sin é wrote:

Notch wrote:They put it down to a lack of leadership, but we've seen all the same problems in the team with O'Driscoll and/or O'Connell there. There have been plenty of awful performances with those two in the side over the last three years.

Since the last Lions tour, one or other of them has been missing and if not missing carrying an injury.

Brian O'Driscoll was carrying an injury for the world cup (came home to a shoulder operation).

I see. So his leadership and communication is what we were missing when he injured his shoulder. He was so focused on his sore shoulder that he forgot to talk to his teammates.

Notch wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Notch wrote:They put it down to a lack of leadership, but we've seen all the same problems in the team with O'Driscoll and/or O'Connell there. There have been plenty of awful performances with those two in the side over the last three years.

Since the last Lions tour, one or other of them has been missing and if not missing carrying an injury.

Brian O'Driscoll was carrying an injury for the world cup (came home to a shoulder operation).

I see. So his leadership and communication is what we were missing when he injured his shoulder. He was so focused on his sore shoulder that he forgot to talk to his teammates.

In fairness a sore shoulder is very distracting,I should know.

The other thing that bugs me is that the only thing Declan ever says publicly, as if excusing himself, is that its not just about picking best players, its about picking best units.

If he cares so much about units? How does he think Darcy and Earls are a good unit? What does it even mean anyway?

Full backs are a unit with wingers, centers are unit, half backs are units, you could talk about the number 8 being a unit with the scrum-half, you can talk about balancing the flankers and second rows all day long. And all these units join together with interplays becoming an even bigger unit, we call a team.

But ultimately, you just can't do it. Unless you pick 90% of the XV from one province. So for me, he has no excuse not to play the form players. Earls has experience at full back, and hasn't played THAT much 13 this year yet, Cave is the best 13 in the country.

If Declan thinks that Cave wouldn't work with D'arcy for whatever reason, he should grab the two of them, explain his concern and say do this or do that differently. He's a coach for goodness sake. Its not like a partnership on the pitch needs to be soul mates.

And sorry to flog a dead donkey, but Wallace at 12 with Cave outside would have done a hell of a better job against that SA side. FACT.

clivemcl wrote:
And sorry to flog a dead donkey, but Wallace at 12 with Cave outside would have done a hell of a better job against that SA side. FACT.

I don't think so. They'd be taking up slow ball off Murray and Sexton and get smashed too. The first thing to address is the half back combination then the midfield.

D'arcy and Earls lack of size and creativity just exasperated the problem, the slow ball and lack of control and direction at 8-9-10.

We're not a million miles off, but with Kidney at the helm we may as well be.

rodders wrote:

clivemcl wrote:
And sorry to flog a dead donkey, but Wallace at 12 with Cave outside would have done a hell of a better job against that SA side. FACT.

I don't think so. They'd be taking up slow ball off Murray and Sexton and get smashed too. The first thing to address is the half back combination then the midfield.

D'arcy and Earls lack of size and creativity just exasperated the problem, the slow ball and lack of control and direction at 8-9-10.

We're not a million miles off, but with Kidney at the helm we may as well be.

I just said it would be better, not that it would solve everything. Darcy/Earls did squander a few moves i think. There were some occasions when Earls didnt make the right decisions. Also, Paddy Wallace as a second kicking option might have been able to mix it up more and limit the rushed defense from SA.

But yea... you are right, we actually need P. Marshall and paddy Jackson in there too to make it really work

Darcy made some really good yards in the tackle, if you have a backrow that can get in quickly and protect the ball and a scrum half that can whip it away quickly, that's a very good weapon to have in your attack.

clivemcl wrote:
But yea... you are right, we actually need P. Marshall and paddy Jackson in there too to make it really work

Honestly yeah we do along with Reddan and Sexton. Two functioning halfback units that can link with each other. One on the pitch and one on the bench.

The Murray-Sexton sham has to end. It just does not work.

The scrum was a decent enough platform to launch at least one decent attack but they couldn't even manage that.

At one point we had a centre field scrum going forward... Heaslip thinks about keeping the ball in and squeezing the Penalty...then changes his mind... Murray runs right in a telegraphed dummy run and Heaslip picks and passes left to Sexton who drifts out against an organised Boks defence who just ignore Murrays obvious decoy....

No one commits any defenders, the whole thing is so slow and disjointed you'd think the players had never met before.

Flip even the Baa-baas can come together an play a bit of rugby.....

Thats what I really don't understand. He talks about combinations and then picks Murray and Sexton together. Two perfectly good players who don't combine well together at all.

Mickado wrote:Darcy made some really good yards in the tackle, if you have a backrow that can get in quickly and protect the ball and a scrum half that can whip it away quickly, that's a very good weapon to have in your attack.

+1

Also agree with the need for better combinations real combinations. Murray sexton doesn't work

LeinsterFan4life wrote:

Sin é wrote:

profitius wrote:

Mickado wrote:Just to play devils advocate (in order for me to better understand where someone is coming from I’ll try to imagine I have their opinion).

Ireland don’t have players who are good enough to beat South Africa, Wales, England, France or New Zealand.

We also scored more tries than anyone else in a tournament 8 months ago so our attack coach is not a problem, it’s the players.

The step from provincial rugby to international rugby is so large that good players become bad, and dreadful players become world beaters.

If Wayne Smith says it, it must be true.
Nah, I’m still not buying it….

You see those arguments all the time. The only thing it proves is Ireland are thee most inconsistent team in world rugby. Why is that? It comes down to the coach. Kidney is very inconsistent and very consistent. Its hard to get your head around that and no wonder.

To me Kidneys greatest flaw is he has no overall strategy. He hires coaches and lets them get on with their area. The Irish play isn't very joined up as a result of no overall strategy. Team selection seems to be the same.

Nonesense. Kidney has to try and put a plan together to suit the players he has at his disposal. Unlike provincial/club level, he can't bring in a player to plug a whole (a la CJ Stander for Munster, Pienaar for Ulster, Thorn for Leinster, quite a few in the Connacht team).

Its also interesting to note that Wayne Smith commented in a blog that he could see what the French gameplan was! (implying that he could see what the game plan was for the other 6Ns teams).

It doesnt matter what players we have on the pitch so long as Kidney is coach. Even Dan Carter wouldnt be able to do anything in this current setup. Dont you understand that there is no sturcture at all in our play. No matter who we have on the pitch.

It seems most the pundits think that its the fault of the players (inexperience and lack of leadership).

Notch wrote:Thats what I really don't understand. He talks about combinations and then picks Murray and Sexton together. Two perfectly good players who don't combine well together at all.

Looking to the future, Reddan or Boss won't be around for the next world cup. Not too sure if there is any scrumhalf at Leinster who will be international class in the next year or so.

With that in mind, he has to get on with working with Murray & Sexton (who have only started about 6 games together so really haven't had a lot of time to build up a decent partnership).

Not too many international class SHs around.

clivemcl wrote:

Sin é wrote:
Nonesense. Kidney has to try and put a plan together to suit the players he has at his disposal. Unlike provincial/club level, he can't bring in a player to plug a whole (a la CJ Stander for Munster, Pienaar for Ulster, Thorn for Leinster, quite a few in the Connacht team).

If this was the great big issue you say it is, how come the second best SH in the country is the so called 'hole', Ulster have 'plugged'. And only second best to potentially the best scrum-half in the world.

The IRFU don't allow all four provinces to have NIQs in the same positions for this reason. You can't use that to excuse Kidney, the safeguards are in place. There are enough good players in each position to be doing better. Simple as that.

I think you are being a bit over-sensitive to how I phrased that.

By the way, the Saffers have much the same attitude to Pienaar as some Irish fans have to Murray and for the same reasons (except they think Pienaar's defence is lousy).

Pienaars defense is lousy but you don't pick a scrum half for his defensive capabilities, unless you are planning on playing without the ball (or are an idiot), you pick him for his his ability to control the game and implement a particular game plan from the base of the ruck.

Pienaar is perfectly suited to SA's power game and uses his footballing brain and skills to direct those around him.

By contrast Irelands smallish backline reguires a scrum half who can produce quick ball and get our fly half (maybe the best attacking 10 in the NH) running onto the ball, rather than stuck back 5m behind the gainline to avoid being nailed due to the slow service.

Thats not to absolve Sexton and Heaslip who aren't producing the required control and direction either but a big problem is Murrays poor control and service at 9.

Would Marmion be worth a shot,even just for a game like next week to see how he'd do.He has stepped up to HC rugby very well and is a very promising player.

After him Ulster have Heaney who I haven't seen a lot of but seems to have potential and Leinster have McGrath who seems to have all the skills but is very small so I can see it taking him a bit longer to be able to handle senior rugby.I don't know if Munster have any more 9's coming through.

Obviously a change at 9 wouldn't fix the problems with our gameplan but right now I'm just happy to see us develop options so the next coach can concentrate on fixing Deccie's mess.

asoreleftshoulder wrote:Would Marmion be worth a shot

I think so yes. Maybe not for this game. I'd go with Marshall maybe with Reddan for experience but Marmiom should be ahead of Murray.

There's that other Munster scrum half too ?

I'm watching Against the Head on RTE Player... I can't believe these guys, total omerta on the real issues facing this team. There are number of elephants in the room being ignored.

-Attacking play
-Earls suitability as a 13
-Slow Tempo, poor continuity play and poor support play.

Ireland 14 wins out of the 34 test matches. And nobody in the mainstream media is even considering we might have bigger problems than a few guys out missing or a bit of ring rustiness.

Yeah it's laughable isn't it,Tony Ward wrote an awful piece in the Indo basically saying the players aren't good enough and sure shouldn't we all be grateful that Deccie is there to steer these sub standard players along.

Notch wrote:I'm watching Against the Head on RTE Player... I can't believe these guys, total omerta on the real issues facing this team. There are number of elephants in the room being ignored.

-Attacking play
-Earls suitability as a 13
-Slow Tempo, poor continuity play and poor support play.

Ireland 14 wins out of the 34 test matches. And nobody in the mainstream media is even considering we might have bigger problems than a few guys out missing or a bit of ring rustiness.

Yes but that would involve criticising Munster and indeed Leinster players which doesn't go down well with the bulk of viewers and ticket buyers.

It's much easier to blame Henry or Trimble.

BBCNI are just as bad. We have a divided media and a divided fan base thats just the way things are.

The Munster fans beside me had no idea who Chris Henry was and cheered when Trimble went off.

The Ulster fans on the other side of us cheered when Pienaar scored.

Irish rugby is what it is...we're our own worst enemies I'm afraid

Notch wrote:I'm watching Against the Head on RTE Player... I can't believe these guys, total omerta on the real issues facing this team. There are number of elephants in the room being ignored.

Elephants, what elephants? These guys were all tacticians and playmakers in their day... weren't they? Despite often giving the impression they may only have caught the youtube highlights five minutes before broadcast, these legends are indispensible in shaping popular opinion for those who can't think for themselves. Of course they know on which side their RTE bread is buttered and it must be quite challenging to pick their way around the elephant doodoo without ever stepping in it.

No, they didn't blame Henry or Trimble rodders. They made some good points, no doubt they all know the game. Costello I saw got some stick from Ulster fans for saying Henry should be dropped but he didn't really say that. He said McCarthy should be moved to 6 to give us more lineout options and Henry would miss out because of that. I don't necessarily agree but it's not a bad point given our lineout looked shaky.

But they very carefully avoided addressing the hard questions that are so evidently accumulating after a protracted period of very poor form. I don't know what they might say behind closed doors but there is a party line in the Irish media that is being stuck to. It is frustrating.

As for the fans, the people who go to international matches sometimes... this time wasn't so bad where we were but I've been sat next to some massively ignorant people at Irish Rugby internationals over the past few years. From all provinces really.

Notch wrote:No, they didn't blame Henry or Trimble rodders. They made some good points, no doubt they all know the game. Costello I saw got some stick from Ulster fans for saying Henry should be dropped but he didn't really say that. He said McCarthy should be moved to 6 to give us more lineout options and Henry would miss out because of that. I don't necessarily agree but it's not a bad point given our lineout looked shaky.

But they very carefully avoided addressing the hard questions that are so evidently accumulating after a protracted period of very poor form. I don't know what they might say behind closed doors but there is a party line in the Irish media that is being stuck to. It is frustrating.

As for the fans, the people who go to international matches sometimes... this time wasn't so bad where we were but I've been sat next to some massively ignorant people at Irish Rugby internationals over the past few years. From all provinces really.

It's just shuffling the deckchairs though isn't it.I mean McCarthy had an excellent game on Saturday and he surprised me but does he regularly play at 6 or is he like Donnacha Ryan who is an excellent lock capable of covering the backrow but not really HC class never mind international there.