Ireland vs Argentina, Build-Up and Match Thread

[Notch]

First topic message reminder :

Ireland's date with destiny fast approaches. Win and we are absolutely certain of a Second Tier seeding at the 2015 RWC. Lose... and we are at the mercy of other results. Argentina sit just ahead of us in the World Rankings table in sixth and will also be looking to copper-fasten their spot. There'll be no love lost between the two sides; these games are always confrontational and Argentina have a fair bit of momentum coming into this with a very credible win in Cardiff. They failed to register a win in their debut rugby championship season but the lessons learned make them a much more dangerous beast than the naive bruisers we've faced in the past. They've kept all their passion and physicality, but now have a fine young generation of elusive and skillful backs and a much better balance to their game. Two of those- Horacio Agulla and Lucas Amorosino- have been omitted by Santiago Phelan for this game but watch out for Juan Jose Imhoff and Gonzalo Camacho.

http://www.planetrugby.com/story/0,25883,3885_8259078,00.html

Argentina: Marcos Ayerza, Marcelo Bosch, Maximiliano Bustos, Gonzalo Camacho, Manuel Carizza, Santiago Cordero, Agustín Creevy, Tomas Cubelli, Tomas De la Vega, Julio Farias Cabello, Juan Martín Fernandez Lobbe (capt), Santiago Fernandez, Francisco Gomez Kodela, Juan Cruz Guillemain, Eusebio Guinazu, Juan Martin Hernandez, Juan Jose Imhoff, Martín Landajo, Juan Manuel Leguizamon, Tomas Leonardi, Nahuel Lobo, Manuel Montero, Bruno Postiglioni, Federico Sanchez, Leonardo Senatore, Gonzalo Tiesu, Joaquin Tuculet, Tomás Vallejos, Nicolas Vergallo.

Talking of backs, Ireland coach Declan Kidney has a number of decisions to make after a much-changed backline ran rampant against against an admittedly under-strength and uncommitted Fijian side. Media and fans have been clamouring to see more of the likes of Craig Gilroy, Luke Marshall and Paddy Jackson but when he selects his side the Cork man has to counter-balance their obvious potential against the naivety of our last opponents and the value of experience. It would be no surprise if he mainly stuck to the conservative option; expect a few new faces but no radical, fundamental change. He'll be hoping Johnny Sexton recovers from an injury picked up in the warm-up on Saturday; he's scheduled to return to training on Thursday, the same day the team is named.

Teams to be edited in when they are announced. Discuss.

[profitius]

15 Earls
14 Bowe
13 BOD
12 McSharry/Marshall
11 Gilroy
10 Sexton
9 Murray

1 Healy
2 Best
3 Ross
4 Ryan
5 POC
6 Ferris
7 Henry
8 SOB

One thing I think must happen is more rotation and form players rewarded. It doesn't matter what reputation players have, it counts for nothing if they're off form.

[theslosty]

Refusing to make any changes to the Argentina game is just silly - D'arcy hasn't been the player he was for over a year now and Earls is clearly not an international centre.
I guess it depends on where your priorities lie - would you rather beat Wales and give us a great chance for the Grand Slam or would you rather show that nobody can walk back into the team. But if the returning guys don't get a look in in the first game, when will they be brought in? After somebody has an atrocious run of form and has to be dropped?
Yes we have a bad history of picking conservatively and yes we need to bring in younger blood but in terms of winning test matches, are Henry and POM better than Ferris and SOB? Is McCarthy better than POC? Is Zebo really a better full back than Kearney?
It's all about getting the balance right.

[rodders]

One thing I think must happen is more rotation and form players rewarded. It doesn't matter what reputation players have, it counts for nothing if they're off form.

I think nearly all of us agree on that...even if the teams we'd pick may differ slightly.

[theslosty]

The other problem with picking purely on form is that there aren't too many internationals to prove yourself and people often disregard Heino/Rabo performances. That means the only way of picking on form would be if a player is actually out of form and has to be dropped.
Not to mention whilst we moan at Kidney for the lack of cohesiveness in our team a constantly changing team would not help matters - just look at Lievremont's France.

If the team was playing Wales tomorrow and everybody was fit I'd go for:
1. Healy
2. Best
3. Bent
4. Ryan
5. POC
6. Ferris
7. POM - harsh on Henry but POM has more potential and we need a line out guy in the back row
8. O'Brien - Heaslip out of form
9. Murray - just
10. Sexton
11. Tough call between Zebo and Gilroy - maybe Gilroy as impact sub as Zebo is more all round player - Earls is still quality but out of form
12. Marshall - tempted to pick Fitz though
13. BOD
14. Bowe
15. Kearney

16. Strauss
17. Kilcoyne
18. McCarthy
19. Henderson
20. P Marshall
21. Jackson
22. Earls
23. Gilroy

[mrsuperclear]

The other problem with picking purely on form is that there aren't too many internationals to prove yourself and people often disregard Heino/Rabo performances. That means the only way of picking on form would be if a player is actually out of form and has to be dropped.
Not to mention whilst we moan at Kidney for the lack of cohesiveness in our team a constantly changing team would not help matters - just look at Lievremont's France.

If the team was playing Wales tomorrow and everybody was fit I'd go for:
1. Healy
2. Best
3. Bent
4. Ryan
5. POC
6. Ferris
7. POM - harsh on Henry but POM has more potential and we need a line out guy in the back row
8. O'Brien - Heaslip out of form
9. Murray - just
10. Sexton
11. Tough call between Zebo and Gilroy - maybe Gilroy as impact sub as Zebo is more all round player - Earls is still quality but out of form
12. Marshall - tempted to pick Fitz though
13. BOD
14. Bowe
15. Kearney

16. Strauss
17. Kilcoyne
18. McCarthy
19. Henderson
20. P Marshall
21. Jackson
22. Earls
23. Gilroy

A 23 man bench for the first time and you go for one, eh, inexperienced prop to cover both sides of the scrum? Best of luck....

Ah, I'm being harsh...I actually like your team. I think I'd pick Henry ahead of POM and we need to see how Bent does before we parachute him in. Yes, he looks good. But lets see how he does for Leinster before making him our number one tighthead. Again, I admire the idea of picking Marshall, but he needs to play well for Ulster first and in the Heineken cup too. I'd say he'll have both the green and white jersey by the end of the year though. On the left wing? Zebo/Gilroy/Earls...doesn't really matter, they'll all score tries. Pick the form one and go with that. Earls will have the bench on account of his alleged versatility though, so one of Zebo and Gilroy will obviously miss out completely. Kind of harsh, but it's nice to finally have that level of competition for places

[Golden]

Anyone else think POC is crocked? Every time he comes back he seems to get injured in the next few games. I hope hes not but whats the longest string of games hes had injury free over the last couple of years?

[theslosty]

With all respect to Henry he is a very goo player but considering POM is five years younger I think he has to go.

[tecphobe]

The other problem with picking purely on form is that there aren't too many internationals to prove yourself and people often disregard Heino/Rabo performances. That means the only way of picking on form would be if a player is actually out of form and has to be dropped.
Not to mention whilst we moan at Kidney for the lack of cohesiveness in our team a constantly changing team would not help matters - just look at Lievremont's France.

If the team was playing Wales tomorrow and everybody was fit I'd go for:
1. Healy
2. Best
3. Bent
4. Ryan
5. POC
6. Ferris
7. POM - harsh on Henry but POM has more potential and we need a line out guy in the back row
8. O'Brien - Heaslip out of form
9. Murray - just
10. Sexton
11. Tough call between Zebo and Gilroy - maybe Gilroy as impact sub as Zebo is more all round player - Earls is still quality but out of form
12. Marshall - tempted to pick Fitz though
13. BOD
14. Bowe
15. Kearney

16. Strauss
17. Kilcoyne
18. McCarthy
19. Henderson
20. P Marshall
21. Jackson
22. Earls
23. Gilroy

If we go with the team that started against Argentina you have the option of bringing on replacements with 30 mins to go. your hardly going to throw marshall in at 12 first 6 nations match for his debut so darcy stays or drico comes in at 12. Anyone with any reading of the international game knows Bod dosnt have the gas anymore to play 13 however he still has a step excellent passing and awesome defence so pick him at 12 or coming of the bench to replace darcy. Gilroy cant be droped deserves to keep his shirt. The Irish backrow is playing as a unit sob and ferris as impact subs Earls at 13 leave zebo at fullback did a great job has more pace than kearney to the bench. Again the irish lineout worked well the men in posssesion are the future why drop them again POC a great man to bring on of the bench

[theslosty]

BOD excellent passing? I'd say that's his only weakness, even in his prime - I'm unconvinced he would work at 12.
And btw how big is this bench that you have in mind?

[theslosty]

Other thing is although its not really relevant to overall discussion with guys like Earls Gilroy and Darcy we'd be completely overpowered by Wales back line again.

[tecphobe]

Other thing is although its not really relevant to overall discussion with guys like Earls Gilroy and Darcy we'd be completely overpowered by Wales back line again.

Bods pasing has improved greatly hes worked on it soft quick hands. You talk about guys being overpowered by the welsh backline and then talk about bringing an untried player into make his début whose defence can at times be suspect.This isn't an anti ulster thing by the way. Luke Marshall will play for Ireland i don't doubt that just not yet. You stop the big welsh backs by depriving them of the ball by blitzing in defence slowing down their ball at the ruck. droping big king burgers for mikey phillips to munch on thus delaying his arrival to the ruck. While not a monster physically Gilroy is no Shane Williams Gilroy is 6ft and 15 stone which coincidentally is exactly the same physical attributes as rob Kearney. As an aside GIlroy like a lot of irelands better rugby player also played Gaelic Football at underage level.

[UlstermaninGlasgow]

IF and I mean if we had to pick a team for the Wales game now, and there was a guarantee that all the players would be fit and on form at the time, my team would be

1. Healy
2. Best
3. Bent
4. Ryan
5. O'Connell
6. Ferris
7. Henry
8. O'Brien

9. Murray
10. Sexton
11. Gilroy
12. Marshall
13. O'Driscoll
14. Bowe
15. Kearney

16. Strauss 17. Court 18. Ross 19. McCarthy 20. O'Mahoney 21. Marshall 22. Jackson 23. Zebo

[Notch]

See Goebbels Thornleys latest effort;

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/sport/2012/1127/1224327142444.html

Sigh.

Let's wait and see what the Six Nations holds before we anoint Kidney as the Chosen one eh? Does he not remember arguably better performances against England and Australia that were followed by inconsistency and mediocrity? I think my favourite line is;

"The provinces might now tap into the feel good factor"

Because the provinces are the ones struggling! Jeez. I remember when Gerry Thornley was a half-decent journalist. Now he's a PR man. Like the last time we produced a performance, I'm waiting to see if it can be backed up. Last two times I decreed it a turning point in the Kidney era. I'm not going to be so hasty again, but I will say what I said after we denied England the Grand Slam;

This latest win represents a new minimum level of performance which must be at least matched in every test. If we can play like that once, with key players injured, we can play like it in every game. And if we don't its not good enough. Consistency is the mark of champions.

[rodders]

Other thing is although its not really relevant to overall discussion with guys like Earls Gilroy and Darcy we'd be completely overpowered by Wales back line again.

Gilroy is a big lad and very powerful too. He bounced off Doug Howlett in the Ulster v Munster game a few months ago for example, and he's one of the best tacklers around. I'd say he's one of the most powerful 3/4s we have.

Earls and D'arcy are good tacklers though both can be weak front on against bigger men and positionally aren't the best at times. D'arcy is much better alongside O'Driscoll and they form a very solid defensive unit.

The key thing with Wales, as has been shown this Autumn, is that the defense comes up and takes them on the gainline. Don't over commit at the breakdown and hit their big men backwards.

Attack is the most important thing though. We can't be going out in the 6N with the mentality of shutting down other teams and just defending...we have to go out and play some rugby, try and beat teams rather than avoid losing.

[tecphobe]

Other thing is although its not really relevant to overall discussion with guys like Earls Gilroy and Darcy we'd be completely overpowered by Wales back line again.

Gilroy is a big lad and very powerful too. He bounced off Doug Howlett in the Ulster v Munster game a few months ago for example, and he's one of the best tacklers around. I'd say he's one of the most powerful 3/4s we have.

Earls and D'arcy are good tacklers though both can be weak front on against bigger men and positionally aren't the best at times. D'arcy is much better alongside O'Driscoll and they form a very solid defensive unit.

The key thing with Wales, as has been shown this Autumn, is that the defense comes up and takes them on the gainline. Don't over commit at the breakdown and hit their big men backwards.

Attack is the most important thing though. We can't be going out in the 6N with the mentality of shutting down other teams and just defending...we have to go out and play some rugby, try and beat teams rather than avoid losing.

Find Myself broadly in agreement with you rodders though i would persist with earls for a while yet. I also agree with notch in so much as Ireland have to back the performace up. That means picking the same team and beating Wales. From what ive seen of Wales previously it looks like their about to embark on another period of implosion/infighting. Minimum requirment for me this year is a triple crown especially with us having 3 homes games

[rodders]

Yeah tec...my feeling is that if the next game was next week then I'd pick the same side.

There's a lot for rugby between now and February. Players will get injured, come back, gain form and lose form. Its too early to pick the side.

However one thing I can say is that Gilroy and Zebo have added a spark to the backline thats been missing for a few seasons now. We absolutley cannot just go back to the old dependables...most of whom aren't that dependable anyways.

There's a few different options in the pack now so I'm not too concerned there but we must be bold with the backline and let the next generation come through.

We have only scratched the surface this autumn.

I'd say 4 wins should be the minimum target. Two home wins plus 2 on the road. All the home nations look beatable and we must start showing some ambition again.

Its time to believe again...this is rugby country...

[Sin é]

The other problem with picking purely on form is that there aren't too many internationals to prove yourself and people often disregard Heino/Rabo performances. That means the only way of picking on form would be if a player is actually out of form and has to be dropped.
Not to mention whilst we moan at Kidney for the lack of cohesiveness in our team a constantly changing team would not help matters - just look at Lievremont's France.

If the team was playing Wales tomorrow and everybody was fit I'd go for:
1. Healy
2. Best
3. Bent
4. Ryan
5. POC
6. Ferris
7. POM - harsh on Henry but POM has more potential and we need a line out guy in the back row
8. O'Brien - Heaslip out of form
9. Murray - just
10. Sexton
11. Tough call between Zebo and Gilroy - maybe Gilroy as impact sub as Zebo is more all round player - Earls is still quality but out of form
12. Marshall - tempted to pick Fitz though
13. BOD
14. Bowe
15. Kearney

16. Strauss
17. Kilcoyne
18. McCarthy
19. Henderson
20. P Marshall
21. Jackson
22. Earls
23. Gilroy

I think BOD is living a bit on reputation here. In the NZ test, he was pretty awful for the 1st test, ok for the 2nd test and very poor again for the 3rd test. Then he seemed to have had difficulty understanding the Ireland attack and who to tal to about it - its going to be much harder for him now, considering all these new guys have just spent a month together and seem to have finally got a good understanding going and he won't be back to Leinster until mid-January.

I'd say the same for Paul O'Connell & Kearney coming back. Happy enough for the backrowers to come back in - though I'd like to keep Henry at 7 for the Wales game and maybe have SOB at 8, dropping Heaslip.

[mystiroakey]

Sin e you must be a happy boy- A couple of good wins for your beloved Irland!

[Sin é]

Sin e you must be a happy boy- A couple of good wins for your beloved Irland!

Yes, I'm pleased that we've stayed in the Top 8. Its exciting to see a new team emerging as well.

[mystiroakey]

your looking good

[rodders]

Happy with the new captain Sin?......

[Warthog]

Happy with the new captain Sin?......

Were you one of the Munchkins booing him off the park in Limerick?

[rodders]

No the only player I boo is ROG.....

[rodders]

....that was a joke by the way..booing players is just wrong...even ROG.

[LeinsterFan4life]

....that was a joke by the way..booing players is just wrong...even ROG.

ROG got by far the largest cheer in the ARG game.

[rodders]

....that was a joke by the way..booing players is just wrong...even ROG.

ROG got by far the largest cheer in the ARG game.

Hence we are 6th in the world and not 4th.....

[Sin é]

Happy with the new captain Sin?......

No (but we may be stuck with him).

[clivemcl]

....that was a joke by the way..booing players is just wrong...even ROG.

ROG got by far the largest cheer in the ARG game.

You mean his woeful 22 drop out? I think that was more a jeer than a cheer to be fair!

[rodders]

Can anyone give a rundown on the injured players and when they're due back?

Best
Ferris
SOB
BOD
Kearney
Fitzgerald

I don't think anyone truly knows what's hapening in relation to POC.

Injury updates here:

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/sport/2012/1127/1224327142404.html?via=mr

“Brian and Rob, mid-January is their expected return-to-play date. We’ll be guided by the surgeons and the specialists as to what sort of state they are in.”

That makes the continuing progress of Eoin O’Malley (knee) and Luke Fitzgerald (neck) more important than ever. O’Malley was initially tipped to return in November only to suffer a minor setback. Fitzgerald has yet to take full contact.

Great shape

“Luke is in great shape,” Schmidt continued. “I think if you see him out there training he is extremely sharp on his feet. It is just a matter of waiting for the all clear for him to take full contact again. That might be one, two, three or four weeks away. I don’t expect it to be any more than that. He has made really good progress.

“He’s ahead of schedule. We got a bit excited that he might be a bit further ahead than that but unfortunately we have to be patient because he is a top-quality member of our environment.

“Eoin O’Malley is a guy who could possibly be involved this weekend (at home to Zebre) or next weekend (in Clermont Auvergne).”

Meanwhile, Johann Muller (thumb) is due to return as Ulster captain in Llanelli on Sunday with Rory Best (neck/shoulder) targeting the trip to Northampton on December 7th, while Stephen Ferris (ankle ligaments) is aiming for Northampton’s visit to Ravenhill on December 15th.

Paul O’Connell will not train with Munster this week but number eight James Coughlan looks likely to return from a groin strain, while Tommy O’Donnell’s ankle problem is expected to clear up.

[SecretFly]

Schmidt is working for his wages this year.... if he pulls off anything reasonable at all, from either contest, then he'll be proving that he's also a non-fair weather coach, and I'll be impressed.

[Mickado]

Just read that Ulster are poised to offer Muller a contract extension. Are IRFU rules about foreign players gone out the window at this stage? Hopefully they are…

[rodders]

You have a source Mick? Rava mentioned that a few week ago I think.

[RuggerRadge2611]

So is Kidney's job safe again? After just about everyone saying he should go after the NZ tour in the summer?

[SecretFly]

So is Kidney's job safe again? After just about everyone saying he should go after the NZ tour in the summer?

We're a generous people, Radge. Please us and we're easy. Rock us and it's a thousand years of war. Kidney - on last weekend and at this time of the day (said in my best Obama accent) - pleases us. If he even looks crooked or utters a silly word between now and Friday, he'll be back on the hit list.

We're Irish - did you really think we'd be consistent on wanting rid of him?

[Mickado]

It was in the indo this morning Rods.

Radge, he’s not off the hook that easily!

[rodders]

I still think we need a new coaching set up but he should be afforded some breathing space until after the 6N I think.

Anything less than 4 wins and 5 good performances and I don't think he should be leading the summer tour.

[SecretFly]

I still think we need a new coaching set up but he should be afforded some breathing space until after the 6N I think.


Anything less than 4 wins and 5 good performances and I don't think he should be leading the summer tour.

2nd behind a resurgent France, playing an eye catching brand of attacking rugby, scoring tries eaily by design rather than by individual moments of erratic splendour... having a forward muscle anchor of aggression and power and playing with consistent intent to win well. If Kidney and his crew can muster up all that then it would be an ungracious and silly man that would call for his head so that a new show pony could prepare it even better for the WC.

But the 6 Nations have to look very astute indeed. We have to finally look like we know what we're about in all five games.

[Warthog]

He should still be given the boot. Even if we win a grand slam.

Why don't we have faith in ourselves as a rugby nation. We have the players. Better players than Kidney's rubbish rugby is producing..

[profitius]

Just read that Ulster are poised to offer Muller a contract extension. Are IRFU rules about foreign players gone out the window at this stage? Hopefully they are…

Hopefully they're not. I think the players that are already here can stay but they're the exceptions. Thats fair enough.

[SecretFly]

He should still be given the boot. Even if we win a grand slam.

Why don't we have faith in ourselves as a rugby nation. We have the players. Better players than Kidney's rubbish rugby is producing..

Don't quite get that...as it's the Provinces that are producing the players and Kidney, fellow coaches and often players themselves that have often made it all go pear shaped when the national side is the deal.

But if we win a Grand Slam then yes, Kidney still might go - but if he does it'll be on his terms, for his reasons. He certainly won't be asked to go, or sacked, if he brings in another Slam.

[rodders]

Another GS followed by Kidney getting the chop..... if Carlesberg made super saturdays.......

[Rava]

You have a source Mick? Rava mentioned that a few week ago I think.

Strong rumors that the IRFU have given permission to Ulster to extend Muller's contract by another year. That would keep him in place until the end of the 2013/14 season.
Would love that to be true.

http://www.newsletter.co.uk/sport/rugby/ulster-await-clearance-on-potential-muller-contract-extension-1-4501136

[Mickado]

Rumours on the Leinster website that we’re in the final stages of signing a “very good” lock. Nobody has any clue who it might be but with Quinn Roux now ruled out for 5 months we might even need a medical joker at this stage.

BBBT should be good for another 2 or 3 years I’d say.

[Rava]

Rumours on the Leinster website that we’re in the final stages of signing a “very good” lock. Nobody has any clue who it might be but with Quinn Roux now ruled out for 5 months we might even need a medical joker at this stage.

BBBT should be good for another 2 or 3 years I’d say.

Mick, don't be surprised if its Ryan Caldwell. Heard last week he was in discussions about a move back home.

[Mickado]

That's certainly one of the names being thrown aboot. Wouldn't be a bad singing at all. He's been going well for Bath.

[thebandwagonsociety]

He seems well settled in Bath, would he be interested in a move to Ireland? Would he fill the need?

Cullen has 2 years left in him at max (you can already see the early drop off that big Mal showed towards the end).
Toner doesn't seem to have the support/confidence of management.
Browne is a grafter and gives it his all -- but he isn't top quality
Denton? is it too early to say? is he around?
Roux? Young and injured more than once already
Flanagan - only a youngster, no sign of him after good glimpses last season.
Marshall - flanker playing second row in the A games
KMcL - flanker stepping in at lock some of last season when needed

A lot of bodies but not a lot of quality, does Caldwell drastically improve the above?

[Warthog]

does Caldwell drastically improve the above?

An emphatic no.

[Warthog]

Plus I'd be very surprised to see Leo play in 2014.

[GunsGerms]

He should still be given the boot. Even if we win a grand slam.

Why don't we have faith in ourselves as a rugby nation. We have the players. Better players than Kidney's rubbish rugby is producing..

Of course we have good players. Last three ERC player of the year has been Irish. ireland is also the most nominated NH country for IRB player of the year.

Can never understand why my own countrymen have such a lack of confidence in our own players. Its such nonsense.

[Gibson]

Rumours on the Leinster website that we’re in the final stages of signing a “very good” lock. Nobody has any clue who it might be but with Quinn Roux now ruled out for 5 months we might even need a medical joker at this stage.

BBBT should be good for another 2 or 3 years I’d say.

Mick, don't be surprised if its Ryan Caldwell. Heard last week he was in discussions about a move back home.

Christ, not Caldwell please. We need quality, not mediocrity.

Schmidt & Gibbes were excited by Quinn Roux in training. A lot of homework was done on him. He was being primed to be the next Hines. Then he has 2 long-term injuries in-a-row. He is so young yet. He will get more chances to prove and to improve himself. We just need high-class cover for the HC knockouts.

It has to be Cullen and Toner till then. They are a pretty good combo. We´ll never lose a lineout or a fight.

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