Ireland vs Argentina, Build-Up and Match Thread

[Notch]

First topic message reminder :

Ireland's date with destiny fast approaches. Win and we are absolutely certain of a Second Tier seeding at the 2015 RWC. Lose... and we are at the mercy of other results. Argentina sit just ahead of us in the World Rankings table in sixth and will also be looking to copper-fasten their spot. There'll be no love lost between the two sides; these games are always confrontational and Argentina have a fair bit of momentum coming into this with a very credible win in Cardiff. They failed to register a win in their debut rugby championship season but the lessons learned make them a much more dangerous beast than the naive bruisers we've faced in the past. They've kept all their passion and physicality, but now have a fine young generation of elusive and skillful backs and a much better balance to their game. Two of those- Horacio Agulla and Lucas Amorosino- have been omitted by Santiago Phelan for this game but watch out for Juan Jose Imhoff and Gonzalo Camacho.

http://www.planetrugby.com/story/0,25883,3885_8259078,00.html

Argentina: Marcos Ayerza, Marcelo Bosch, Maximiliano Bustos, Gonzalo Camacho, Manuel Carizza, Santiago Cordero, Agustín Creevy, Tomas Cubelli, Tomas De la Vega, Julio Farias Cabello, Juan Martín Fernandez Lobbe (capt), Santiago Fernandez, Francisco Gomez Kodela, Juan Cruz Guillemain, Eusebio Guinazu, Juan Martin Hernandez, Juan Jose Imhoff, Martín Landajo, Juan Manuel Leguizamon, Tomas Leonardi, Nahuel Lobo, Manuel Montero, Bruno Postiglioni, Federico Sanchez, Leonardo Senatore, Gonzalo Tiesu, Joaquin Tuculet, Tomás Vallejos, Nicolas Vergallo.

Talking of backs, Ireland coach Declan Kidney has a number of decisions to make after a much-changed backline ran rampant against against an admittedly under-strength and uncommitted Fijian side. Media and fans have been clamouring to see more of the likes of Craig Gilroy, Luke Marshall and Paddy Jackson but when he selects his side the Cork man has to counter-balance their obvious potential against the naivety of our last opponents and the value of experience. It would be no surprise if he mainly stuck to the conservative option; expect a few new faces but no radical, fundamental change. He'll be hoping Johnny Sexton recovers from an injury picked up in the warm-up on Saturday; he's scheduled to return to training on Thursday, the same day the team is named.

Teams to be edited in when they are announced. Discuss.

[tecphobe]

I wonder what will happen come 6 nations time if Ferris and SOB are fit.

Kidney said after the game that he was impressed with Henry, but if Ferris and SOB are fit will they go back to 6 and 7, or will just one of them be at 6 and the other on bench? means Henderson drops to wolfhounds?

Is it better to have a top 6 play 7, or a good 7 (as Henry is now) play 7?

Wings, Bowe Trimble Gilroy, Zebo, Earls and would Fizgerald be back? all pushing for two spots.

some tough decisions to be made, even center at 12 is Marshall plays well could become a talking point

As i have said i hope Kidney goes with the team that started in against Argentina they have earned there shirts making them earn them back. Ireland have had a kind of Gerrard/Lampard issue with Ferris and SOB can they play in the same team. Personally id have both on the bench and playing the last 30. The only change i might consider is Bod for Darcy but again that works of the bench also

[rodders]

I wonder what will happen come 6 nations time if Ferris and SOB are fit.

Kidney said after the game that he was impressed with Henry, but if Ferris and SOB are fit will they go back to 6 and 7, or will just one of them be at 6 and the other on bench? means Henderson drops to wolfhounds?

Is it better to have a top 6 play 7, or a good 7 (as Henry is now) play 7?

Wings, Bowe Trimble Gilroy, Zebo, Earls and would Fizgerald be back? all pushing for two spots.

some tough decisions to be made, even center at 12 is Marshall plays well could become a talking point

SOB and Ferris will start if fit. Henry for me is a top 7 but O'Brien is a better one.

In terms of the back 3 well it will be Bowe and Kearney plus A.N. Other .... likely Earls if BOD is fit.

Fitzgerald is nowheresville, yesterdays man ..... but Gilroy, Zebo, McFadden and Trimble are competing for a bench spot unless there is an injury.

Not saying I agree with that but I'd say thats what Kidney will go with.

[Warthog]

Paddy will I suspect get game time in the 6 Nations.

It won't happen unless Kidney goes or is removed (which won't happen).

It's a given that ROG will continue to get cheap caps at the expense of developing the team as long as Kidney is the coach.

[Mickado]

I wonder what will happen come 6 nations time if Ferris and SOB are fit.

Kidney said after the game that he was impressed with Henry, but if Ferris and SOB are fit will they go back to 6 and 7, or will just one of them be at 6 and the other on bench? means Henderson drops to wolfhounds?

Is it better to have a top 6 play 7, or a good 7 (as Henry is now) play 7?

Wings, Bowe Trimble Gilroy, Zebo, Earls and would Fizgerald be back? all pushing for two spots.

some tough decisions to be made, even center at 12 is Marshall plays well could become a talking point

SOB and Ferris will start if fit. Henry for me is a top 7 but O'Brien is a better one.

In terms of the back 3 well it will be Bowe and Kearney plus A.N. Other .... likely Earls if BOD is fit.

Fitzgerald is nowheresville, yesterdays man ..... but Gilroy, Zebo, McFadden and Trimble are competing for a bench spot unless there is an injury.

Not saying I agree with that but I'd say thats what Kidney will go with.

I'm sure Kidney will sit up an notice if Fitzgerald gets back to form. An in form Fitzgerald is pretty hard to ignore.

[dublin_dave]

If Rog does not want to retire from International Rugby he should have the decision made for him. He has had two very poor cameos in the Autumn internationals and more importantly he is 35. YES 35. We have secured our place in the 2nd tier for the next World Cup so now should be building for said World Cup.

I concede that his goalkicking is superior to Jackson,Madigan and Keatley however his overall game is no longer up to it and he is behind all 3 of the above. I am willing to trade off his superior place kicking for the youthful exuberance of Jackson and Madigan. Introducing ROG seems to be codeword for kicking the ball away every time we get it. Would prefer we tried to "close off" games by continuing to attack keeping hold of possession and finishing off inferior teams like we did on Saturday

Time moves on if we need to be ruthless with BOD and POC as a next step we may well have to do it for the good of the team. We will see how they both fair when they come back

[Warthog]

Fitzgerald is nowheresville, yesterdays man

Yesterday's man? Bizarre statement considering he is 25 and has had a savage run of injuries.

[rodders]

I'm sure Kidney will sit up an notice if Fitzgerald gets back to form. An in form Fitzgerald is pretty hard to ignore.

Well he ignored him the last two times he was on form. I do rate Fitzgerald but Kidney doesn't seem to...or at least they don't seem to get on the best.

I really can't see him involved with the national side any time soon, certainly not whilst Kidney is in charge.

[Warthog]

1 Healy
2 Strauss
3 Ross / Bent
4 Ryan
5 POC
6 Fez
7 SOB
8 Heaslip
9 Reddan / Marshall
11 Gilroy
12 BOD
13 Bowe
14 Zebo
15 Kearney

[tecphobe]

Fitzgerald is nowheresville, yesterdays man

Yesterday's man? Bizarre statement considering he is 25 and has had a savage run of injuries.

Not Bizzare in light of said savage run of injuries if he has lost pace due to the injuries then sad as it may sound he may well be done for

[Warthog]

At 25? I very much doubt it.

[pete (buachaill on eirne)]

Something they said on a Whiff of Cordite:

"Is Keith Earls the Odd Man Out? Keith Earls singularly failed to grab his chance at 13, and could find himself struggling for selection in the Six Nations, when BOD will be back. His much-stated desire to play 13 should preclude his selection on the wing, where one of Gilroy and Zebo will have to miss out in any case. He could be in a tight spot … unless BOD continues to do his best to play himself off the team!"

If BOD comes back and takes 13 and then Marshall, Darcy/McFadden are challenging for 12 will that leave Earls out of the team? With Gilroy, Bowe, Kearney, Zebo all possibles for starting positions in the back 3.

Earls didn't really impress me in any of the games, he did better against the Pumas but in a game that others were excelling in he did very little and made some very elementary mistakes. He rarely wins the battle for the gainline, he doesn't get the space (or create space) as often at 13 as he does in the back 3.

So what will happen?

[rodders]

Fitzgerald is nowheresville, yesterdays man

Yesterday's man? Bizarre statement considering he is 25 and has had a savage run of injuries.

Not Bizzare in light of said savage run of injuries if he has lost pace due to the injuries then sad as it may sound he may well be done for

No I don't mean he's done as player but he's fallen well out of favour with Kidney since the RWC warm-ups.

He was on fire just below the 6N and didn't even make the extended squad.... I'd say hes well out of the picture now.

[Mickado]

Fitzgerald is nowheresville, yesterdays man

Yesterday's man? Bizarre statement considering he is 25 and has had a savage run of injuries.

Not Bizzare in light of said savage run of injuries if he has lost pace due to the injuries then sad as it may sound he may well be done for

But...? But...? He's likely to be named against Zebre this weekend. And in the last run of games that he had he tore the Bath defence to shreds with his pace.

[SecretFly]

All this surmising is going to make for a very interesting remainder of the Pro12 and HEC...very interesting. Players now have to do their impressing in those spheres and realise nothing is written in stone. Ulster players certainly have a heady!!! head start in every department - provincial and International.
Leinster and Munster, meanwhile, look like very fragile beasts indeed when their big boys are away or injured and only just a little level above that when they're present!

Time for quite a number of players to prove their worthiness in domestic and European rugby.

[tecphobe]

1 Healy
2 Strauss
3 Ross / Bent
4 Ryan
5 POC
6 Fez
7 SOB
8 Heaslip
9 Reddan / Marshall
11 Gilroy
12 BOD
13 Bowe
14 Zebo
15 Kearney

What exactly has Reddan done to get back in naff all. I've never seen him play well for Ireland Murry was excellent against Argentina. He is also the younger player and will improve. Reddan will be 34 by the time world cup comes round. SO a long term option he is not. Allowing Kearney to walk back into the side same with ferris and Sob wrong message

[tecphobe]

Fitzgerald is nowheresville, yesterdays man

Yesterday's man? Bizarre statement considering he is 25 and has had a savage run of injuries.

Not Bizzare in light of said savage run of injuries if he has lost pace due to the injuries then sad as it may sound he may well be done for

But...? But...? He's likely to be named against Zebre this weekend. And in the last run of games that he had he tore the Bath defence to shreds with his pace.

I personally rate him if he can stay fit. I hope he hasn't lost any pace just point ing out that injuries can make players lose half a yard which in test match rugby you will get found out on

[rodders]

Something they said on a Whiff of Cordite:

"Is Keith Earls the Odd Man Out? Keith Earls singularly failed to grab his chance at 13, and could find himself struggling for selection in the Six Nations, when BOD will be back. His much-stated desire to play 13 should preclude his selection on the wing, where one of Gilroy and Zebo will have to miss out in any case. He could be in a tight spot … unless BOD continues to do his best to play himself off the team!"

If BOD comes back and takes 13 and then Marshall, Darcy/McFadden are challenging for 12 will that leave Earls out of the team? With Gilroy, Bowe, Kearney, Zebo all possibles for starting positions in the back 3.

Earls didn't really impress me in any of the games, he did better against the Pumas but in a game that others were excelling in he did very little and made some very elementary mistakes. He rarely wins the battle for the gainline, he doesn't get the space (or create space) as often at 13 as he does in the back 3.

So what will happen?

Whiff of Cordite must be on the sauce...Keith Earls will be the first name on the teamsheet....

[pete (buachaill on eirne)]

Do you think he should be though Rods? And why?

[rodders]

No of course I don't.... but I do believe that he is a firm favourite with Kidney and if BOD is out he'll start at 13 and if he isn't then he'll start at 11.

I'd bet my last euro on it......

[tecphobe]

Do you think he should be though Rods? And why?

He has to be given the chance i thought earls was much improved on the weekend. If i was bringing bod back into the midfield i would pick him and at 12 not 13 as i dont believe bod has the pace for 13 any more he does however have the skill set for an international 12 much in the same way the AB's moved Umanga to the centre to prolong his career.Personally BOD and earls would of been playing centre for me since 2010

[SecretFly]

...don't worry about that last Euro...it's due to be restocked heavily when the 'southern hemisphere' shopping splurge really kicks in.

[rodders]

Any word on BOD?

Is it worth me betting my second last euro that he'll play on until the next RWC?

[pete (buachaill on eirne)]

Do you not think he has played better for Ireland on the wing, in my mind he was poor enough this autumn. That's my opinion anyways, I was just wondering if anyone else thought he could fall between stools (centre and wing) and be left out of the team as a result?

[rodders]

Pete I don't think he's played well for Ireland full stop ,bar v England in 2011 and a few flashes of quality here and there.

He believes he's a centre and so does Kidney and both have been pretty vocal about it. If he doesn't get the nod in the centre, he'll start on the wing...I've no doubt about that.

I personally think there are better wingers and better centres but hey I don't pick the team man....

[asoreleftshoulder]

Fitzgerald is nowheresville, yesterdays man

Yesterday's man? Bizarre statement considering he is 25 and has had a savage run of injuries.

Not Bizzare in light of said savage run of injuries if he has lost pace due to the injuries then sad as it may sound he may well be done for

But...? But...? He's likely to be named against Zebre this weekend. And in the last run of games that he had he tore the Bath defence to shreds with his pace.

I personally rate him if he can stay fit. I hope he hasn't lost any pace just point ing out that injuries can make players lose half a yard which in test match rugby you will get found out on

His latest injury was a neck problem I think and he had shown a huge improvement in for and no lack of pace prior to that so as long as he remains injury free I can see Fitzgerald challenging for the shirt again.

However before this his only real competition for the left wing spot was Earls but in the time he's been out both Zebo and Gilroy have come in and performed so he has a lot of work to do before he can get that shirt back.

[rodders]

He has to get past Fionn Carr first.....

[Kingshu]

1 Healy
2 Strauss
3 Ross / Bent
4 Ryan
5 POC
6 Fez
7 SOB
8 Heaslip
9 Reddan / Marshall
11 Gilroy
12 BOD
13 Bowe
14 Zebo
15 Kearney

What exactly has Reddan done to get back in naff all. I've never seen him play well for Ireland Murry was excellent against Argentina. He is also the younger player and will improve. Reddan will be 34 by the time world cup comes round. SO a long term option he is not. Allowing Kearney to walk back into the side same with ferris and Sob wrong message

and why would Best not be at hooker? he had a good world cup, some injuries since but when played has been the best hooker in Ireland, Strauss for me is on th ebench unless Best is injuried or very out of form.
Murry at 9 for me, wouldn't mind seeing Kieran Marmion called up to Wolfhounds, Marshall may be about there as well.

11 Gilroy/Trimble (Kidney loves dropping Trimble its his Favourite game, but to drop him he has to pick him, so Trimble to start first game of 6 Nations then DK drops him from squad and has his little laugh)
12 D'arcy (Marshall could play himself in by 6 nations)
13 BOD
14 Bowe
15 Kearney

[MunsterMac]

Can anyone give a rundown on the injured players and when they're due back?

Best
Ferris
SOB
BOD
Kearney
Fitzgerald

I don't think anyone truly knows what's hapening in relation to POC.

[rodders]

Heard Rory Best was playing for Belfast Harlequins last weekend so he must be well on the mend....

Hope thats right anyways because Ulsters line has been a shambles lately ....

SOB was playing for Leinster there wasn't he?

[Kingshu]

Pete I don't think he's played well for Ireland full stop ,bar v England in 2011 and a few flashes of quality here and there.

He believes he's a centre and so does Kidney and both have been pretty vocal about it. If he doesn't get the nod in the centre, he'll start on the wing...I've no doubt about that.

I personally think there are better wingers and better centres but hey I don't pick the team man....

I have to agree with Rodders on this, while I think Earls is a good player I don't think hes deserved all of his 37 (?) caps. DK always fits him in either wing or center, and to be fair for Ireland, I think the best 13's are in order BoD, Cave/Earls and Eoin Griffin.
Wings Bowe, Gilroy/Zebo/Trimble/Earls (all about same level), too many below that.

[Kingshu]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/20500838

Ulster hooker Best targets Heineken Cup return against Saints

[wolfball]

Below is the team I would pick for 6 nations. It really saddens me that some of my favorite players like Trimble wont get a lookin, but I finally feel we have the makings of a squad.

1 Healy
2 Best
3 Ross / Bent
4 Ryan
5 POC
6 Fez
7 SOB
8 Heaslip
9 Murray
11 Gilroy
12 Marshall
13 BOD
14 Bowe
15 Kearney

16 Court
17 Strauss
18 Ross/Bent
19 McCarthy
20 Henry (or Henderson horses for courses, POM to replace Heaslip if Heaslip deteriorates further)
21 Redden
22 Paddy Jackson (a 1 season stop gap until Madigan/Hanrahan get more provincial gametime)
23 Earls (the embodiment of a utility back I'm sad to say)

[asoreleftshoulder]

He has to get past Fionn Carr first.....

[Warthog]

and why would Best not be at hooker? he had a good world cup, some injuries since but when played has been the best hooker in Ireland, Strauss for me is on th ebench unless Best is injuried or very out of form.

Why? Cause he's a foreigner? You would seriously take an out of form best over Strauss? (you mentioned very out of form. I presume, just out of form and Best would get the nod)?

A tad, er, provincial dont you think?

[SecretFly]

Warthog - are you DOD, having an inverted laugh?

[asoreleftshoulder]

That's a bit of an O.T.T. reaction Warthog,I'd take Best ahead of Strauss too and I'm a leinster fan.

There's no need to start having an argument based on him using the word "very".Also I think the insinuation of xenophobia is way out of line,there's no reason to think that's why he rates Best higher.

[rodders]

and why would Best not be at hooker? he had a good world cup, some injuries since but when played has been the best hooker in Ireland, Strauss for me is on th ebench unless Best is injuried or very out of form.

Why? Cause he's a foreigner? You would seriously take an out of form best over Strauss? (you mentioned very out of form. I presume, just out of form and Best would get the nod)?

A tad, er, provincial dont you think?

I think the best player should play. Best has been one of Irelands best and most consistant players over the past 2 years... but Strauss really showed what he can do this Autumn and will really challenge for the no 2 jersey.

I think its really important that we have two quality options because Cronin has gone backwards and Sherry is some way off yet.

[SecretFly]

Leinster have gone backwards (seems to suggest a kind of a miss hit timing on form for the whole squad - or!!! - a dead spot-on timing )... I wouldn't pinpoint Cronin so much in isolation and I certainly wouldn't count him out of contention at this stage in the year.

He's the most explosive speedster Hooker on the island and would sit in nicely into a more expansive running Ireland side if we were playing such a game for extended periods during the 6N.

[rodders]

Leinster have gone backwards (seems to suggest a kind of a miss hit timing on form for the whole squad - or!!! - a dead spot-on timing )... I wouldn't pinpoint Cronin so much in isolation and I certainly wouldn't count him out of contention at this stage in the year.

I would...he couldn't hit a barn door with a banjo and isn't as quick as he was a few seasons ago.....he's miles off the level of Best and Strauss ..... in my humble opinion of course

[Golden]

I think Strauss is better at the expansive game than Cronin anyway. He may not have his pace but hes a much better offloader and his all round game is a lot better.

[MunsterMac]

Just heard on the radio that Leinster have said that next weekend's match has come just too soon for Fitzgerald so he can't be far off getting back.

Hopefully he can steer clear of injuries for the foreseeable future.

[theslosty]

Admittedly Earls doesn't possess the skills or the physicality for centre but it is amazing how short some people's memories are, at wing he is arguably the best finisher in the team... not to mention his pace and footballing skills. Having said that he shouldn't be in the team if the 6N started tomorrow - but it doesn't...
As for Fitz, he has the talent and was in great form prior to his injury but it remains to be seen if he can recover. Luke Marshall is one for the future but at the moment Ireland's favourite son Paddy Wallace remains ahead of him up North.
Most importantly, we need to get the balance right between bringing in fresh blood and actually picking our best team. To be fair to SOB, Best, Ferris and particularly Kearney they haven't done an awful lot wrong to be dropped.
That may have sounded a little Kidney-esque but before these AIs not very many were calling for the likes of Zebo and Gilroy. Those two have done brilliantly but whilst they have earned international experience they haven't jumped up another level in the space of two weeks. Their inclusion in the 6N team will depend on whether they can maintain that form, especially Gilroy who needs to nail down an Ulster starting spot.
For me Kidney's failings haven't really been his selections (bar ROG obviously), he has actually brought in a lot more talent than people have given him credit for. Particularly Sexton was brought in on the basis of a performance against Fiji.
What does concern me about Kidney is the way you hear about big team talks firing up the team from guys like BOD, POC and even Jerry Flannery - England 2011 especially. It's as if Kidney is unable to motivate his players - which is what half of his job is. You also don't hear praise heaped on Kidney by the players whereas Schmidt has been commended by BOD, Healy, Sexton etc.

[SecretFly]

Leinster have gone backwards (seems to suggest a kind of a miss hit timing on form for the whole squad - or!!! - a dead spot-on timing )... I wouldn't pinpoint Cronin so much in isolation and I certainly wouldn't count him out of contention at this stage in the year.

I would...he couldn't hit a barn door with a banjo and isn't as quick as he was a few seasons ago.....he's miles off the level of Best and Strauss ..... in my humble opinion of course

Oh your humble opinions are always taken into account Rodders. But I'll just do my usual little "Well, we'll see....... "

I'll bet my crumpled up Pound note that he'll come in photogenically handy for Leinster at some point after Christmas."

[dublin_dave]

big time. his development has certainly been stunted by injuries but he is still only 25. Was never lightning quick in the first pace just an elusive runner with a great step

Lots of important provincial rugby to go before im even going to have a stab at picking a squad/22 for 6 nations. SOB, Ferris, Kearney, POC, Drico are hopefully 100% for the 6 nations, if so we will have real competition for places. Play the style of rugby we played on Saturday and we are going the right direction

[rodders]

...save that pound note for your Xmas shopping fly

[Gibson]

I wonder what will happen come 6 nations time if Ferris and SOB are fit.

Kidney said after the game that he was impressed with Henry, but if Ferris and SOB are fit will they go back to 6 and 7, or will just one of them be at 6 and the other on bench? means Henderson drops to wolfhounds?

Is it better to have a top 6 play 7, or a good 7 (as Henry is now) play 7?

Wings, Bowe Trimble Gilroy, Zebo, Earls and would Fizgerald be back? all pushing for two spots.

some tough decisions to be made, even center at 12 is Marshall plays well could become a talking point

As i have said i hope Kidney goes with the team that started in against Argentina they have earned there shirts making them earn them back. Ireland have had a kind of Gerrard/Lampard issue with Ferris and SOB can they play in the same team. Personally id have both on the bench and playing the last 30. The only change i might consider is Bod for Darcy but again that works of the bench also

Could not agree more Tec. That group took us safely to the top 6 in the rankings, when the pressure was really on. And how. They are the incumbents. NO one walks back in and takes that shirt off any of them. I don't care who. BOD, POC, Kearney, SOB... Let them earn it back.

Can I say Donnacha Ryan? Ok, Donnacha Ryan.

The man is a revelation. As is his partnership with McCarthy. His time has truly come. They compliment each other beautifully. Its an excellent unit. One major plus from the AI's. As is the boy Gilroy.
A few more fortuitous injuries and Kidney may end up with a young, exciting and vital squad. As long as he is not let inherit it, at this late stage.

Believe.

[Notch]

That's a bit of an O.T.T. reaction Warthog,I'd take Best ahead of Strauss too and I'm a leinster fan.

There's no need to start having an argument based on him using the word "very".Also I think the insinuation of xenophobia is way out of line,there's no reason to think that's why he rates Best higher.

I think Best will need to play well between now and the Six Nations, if Strauss is playing better take the man on form! But if Best is playing like he was before he got injured it would be very hard not to recall him as he's another leader and another Captain.

[tecphobe]

We win well and people are looking at the team to make changes crowbar their provincial players into the team Never heard the phrase dont change a winning team

[Feckless Rogue]

I think Best was the best NH hooker at the RWC and in the last 6N. The one thing I don't like about him though is the fact that our lineout can tend to unravel when under pressure. Some might say it's not all down to his throwing. But it's happened on numerous occasions. And it's an area where I think Strauss is better.

[rodders]

I think that's a fair shout Feckless. Strauss is a better thrower than Best I think but its an area where Best has really improved. I think Ulster had the best line out stats in the HEC last season.

I think Best has been phenomenal since the RWC but Strauss will really challenge him for the no2 jersey in a way he hasn't been since Flannery retired. Hopefully that competition will bring out the best in both, and Cronin too.

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