Assessing Stuart Lancaster's performance so far

First topic message reminder :

With some fanfare about a year ago SL was appointed Archbishop of Twickenham (elect). And formally anointed last March.

How do you feel he's faring?

Given that it was a foregone conclusion that the England squad was going to be dismantled (especially after the shenanigans of senior players in the RWC), young blood was inevitable whoever was in charge.

But performances thus far are not exactly inspiring are they?

England stuttered their way on the back of two entertaining games in a very mediocre 6Ns last year to second spot, endured a very disappointing summer and have one realistic chance (however slim) of salvaging any semblance of respectability out of the autumn.

OK. the players are new and inexperienced. But are they being managed properly. Are SL's new lieutenants up to the job?

I want to see progress but what I sense is flat-lining.
SL appears to be fortunate with flush of talent from the academies providing some semblance of depth but can he bring that talent to the fore?

Or should MJ not have bowed to the media pressure to resign for the culpability of senior, trusted players (Jonny apart) going AWOL?
We'll never know.

LondonTiger wrote:Beshocked.


Why do you always need to be so damned aggressive and petulant?

Apologies reading the rubbish porntoy and jimpy come up with makes me like that. Funny you criticise me but not them. I wonder why......

I just don't like all this one sided and unreasonable bashing of players.

I can add balance if I want. I have been critical of Parling. I thought he had a good game - ran the line out well.
Most of the woe in the scrum was down to lack of experience IMO. I feel Waldron is a scapegoat. Not great but the whole back row unit didn't work well.

I like the look of this side. Depends which Youngs shows up - Jekyll or Hyde whether England's backs will get good ball.

beshocked wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:Beshocked.


Why do you always need to be so damned aggressive and petulant?

Apologies reading the rubbish porntoy and jimpy come up with makes me like that. Funny you criticise me but not them. I wonder why......

I just don't like all this one sided and unreasonable bashing of players.

I can add balance if I want. I have been critical of Parling. I thought he had a good game - ran the line out well.
Most of the woe in the scrum was down to lack of experience IMO. I feel Waldron is a scapegoat. Not great but the whole back row unit didn't work well.

I like the look of this side. Depends which Youngs shows up - Jekyll or Hyde whether England's backs will get good ball.

I'm prepared to answer any specific criticism.
But I can't handle a whole fistful of generalisations as it would just be so fudgy as to be pointless.

Not sure Waldrom is a scapegoat, it looks like SL is mixing & matching his no8 & back row options, 2 games each for the 2 no8s. Plus some selection complications from injury returns e.g. Wood & Corbs.

Some might say AI vs the big 3 is not a good time to do a lab experiment, others might say well, why not ? What better time to match your various green boys vs the world's best ? (ok Waldrom not green, but you see what I mean)

Damned if you do, damned if you don't. Too easy and it's not a true test. Too hard and it's not a fair test.

If Morgan does play in both the next two games it'll be a real test of where he is in his development

Although in truth Thunor, SL will be ultimately measured on the Bokke result than anything compared with the ABs game in which anything less than a 25 point loss could be construed under the heading of 'acceptable'.

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:

damage_13 wrote:there must be a reason that was flagged up, fitness, strength, defence stats etc

Has he been part of the EPS at all yet, maybe he rubbed other players or the coaches up the wrong way?

Not really. Lack of gametime at Tigers would be the most obvious, followe dby injury at the wrong time. And Brad Barrit deservedlty getting the call up when he did. ... lets not forget he also earned a lot of credit for his tackling and workrate in the 6 nations, he did "do a job".

Twelvetrees is on the edges of the England sqaud still, and is a Lancaster Saxon. If/When they finaly get over having a pure boshing/tackling center he is at the frnt of the queue.

As for pace outside him, Tuilagui is hardly lacking in that department. He may not quite have the Tait/JSD headless chicken danciness of JJ/May but he makes up for that by his threat of physical power and ability to run through as well as past players.

I think theyd make a great combination, but as with any player (except Ashton) 36 does have to earn a spot in the side by performances at club level.

To be fair we all know coaches have their favourites, for Lancaster it's Wood and Ashton (to an extent Botha and Farrel as well) to be fair it could be worse and be some of the coaches fave's of old; Hape, Tins, Moody, Fourie, Banahan...

Well, still not convinced about Lancaster's appointment (and I said that I wouldn't be so after an at best moderate S and AIs until after the 6Ns).

This 6Ns has mirrored the 2011 campaign with a slow decline in performance with a team that MJ (albeit with a different coaching squad). And with the same shuddering end.

It's not SL I'm really concerned about but still his insistent choice of Andy Farrell.

SL is lucky with the timing of this man-sausage-up. He's got the summer to experiment a bit, without too much pressure with some (only a few I hope) players in Oz, and some on r&r. Then he can blame senior player fatigue for the AI. By the time the next real test comes in the 6N 2014 it'll probably be too late in the RWC cycle to replace him, even if he deserved it.

From a welshmans pov I think Lancaster's done pretty well.

His 6 nations record reads played 10, won 8, both losses coming against Wales who won the tournament each time.

England have beaten NZ, something pretty much everyone else in the NH fails to do (regardless of questions makrs around illness etc, you can only beat whats in front of you).

He's developed a new core of young players with the potential throughout the team to challenge for honours in any international competition.

The team are still learning, I think the media/pundits have built this side up on the back of the NZ victory and its come back to bite them after a loss like this weekends. I dont think the coach or the team bigged themselves up and put themselves in this position.

This weekends game against Wales was the best result in Welsh history against England, I wouldnt read too much into it unless England fail to learn from this experience. something like 10 players in the side hadnt come to the MS before?

They're not worldbeaters yet, but I think he's done well so far and should be given until the world cup (unless things go very downhill, very quickly).

He's made some mistakes, but every coach will, look at Howley for a prime example and how his selection has improved since he originally took over the welsh squad in Oz.

Extreme highs (NZ victory) and extreme lows (Wales loss) always seem to take away peoples balanced rationale. They weren't as good as they were made out to be pre-6nations and they're certainly not as bad as some fans/sections of the media are making out after this loss.

you give me some Comfort

Losing 30-3 to Wales will be the best thing to happen to Stuart Lancaster's England. Just like when Scotland beat England 19-13 in 2000, or Ireland beating England 20-14 in 2001. The pain of this defeat, will drive England on to bigger and better things in the future.

Lancaster is doing a fine job so far. Let us not forget, he has won 8 out of 10 Six Nations games so far, both losses are to Wales, so we have a 100% record over France and Ireland. Also, we've won 4 out of the last 5 games. Argentina await in the summer, with the best England players off on Lions duty, it is a superb chance to give experience and gametime to the up and coming players who will provide fierce competition for a place in the autumn.

The future of English rugby has never looked better.

He just needs to stop making selections based upon the Phillipe StAndre guide to team selection!

I all ways think that when a new coach comes in like SL they should be given at least untill the RWC comes around.

Their what a lott of new caps in that team who so far have not done too bad in my opinion. The loss on saturday was a big shock for England. Not the loss its self wales was the better team on the day.

I do believe that SL will go over the video time and time again, he will see the mistakes he made Brown on the wing for example.

England will get better this summer tour should bring in some new talent for future of England rugby.

majesticimperialman wrote:I all ways think that when a new coach comes in like SL they should be given at least untill the RWC comes around.

Their what a lott of new caps in that team who so far have not done too bad in my opinion. The loss on saturday was a big shock for England. Not the loss its sel2f wales was the better team o8n the day.

I do believe that SL will go over the video time and time again, he will see the mistakes he made Brown on the wing for example.

England will get better this summer tour shou6ld bring in some new talent for future of England rugby.

This golden generation would have come along anyway madge. It would probably been the same lot anyway under MJ.

We don't have a cohesive back five in the pack. And the back6s' performa6nce is going down as predictably as lady of prostitute's drawers (without the fascination of the 4stockings). And that's A.Farrell's fault through a defence-first approach. Uninspired, unimaginative and predictable. In the backs I don't fault the personnel. I blame the game plan.

GT, who is claiming the 'golden generation' tag? It's true we have a fair few gifted players at an early stage in their careers but 'golden generation', I don't think so. Unless they prove themselves the equal of the 2003 lot then it's misplaced. Ideally we could have done with an extra year before the WC but we haven't and this means SL has to have the courage go with form players and if they are very young give them the grounding they will need in quick time. We are going to learn a lot about the guy this summer and about his his vision. There's talent aplenty out there and I hope he's as open minded as he claims to be.

I'm a fan of his but even I have to say the jury's out for now, as it must be after just 14 or so months.

Well if you're getting rid of him can we have him ?

Tell you what, he might just have been tailormade for you guys but no, you can't have him, not unless he cocks it up big style.

i never wanted sl - definition of madness and all that.....rfu shambles/ripples continue to pervade.....G&T's all round ah rob

Hold your nerve guys. SL is doing a huge amount right. However, the selections made in one or two areas smack of over analysis by boffins sitting at computer screens trying to fit certain players in to certain mythical roles. They must get back to basics with their selections. Use common sense. I mean! Why play a flanker at No8 for goodness sake? Why play a full back on the Wing? Why play a winger who avoids contact at every opportunity?

If SL can get back to the basics and go with gut instinct rather than a computer model we will improve.

Would Nick Mallett have done any better??

One criticism placed on SL door is that he is a little slow to spot issues with his players. He's a little too loyal to his players IMO.

Guys like Brown came in and did a sterling job on the wing but it was only time before his lack of pace got found out and in a bad way. Same with Tom Youngs... it was only time before a big hooker came in and sent him packing... had Bismarck been playing in the AI or Youngs played in SA I feel it could have come there.

I don't think Mallett would have been that naive.

Then again.. he does seem to have a rapport with the players, they seem to play for him, for the team which is rare. You can't develop that... you can develop awareness and a ruthless streak (for the overall benefit of the team).

Personality - 9 out of 10
Public Utterances - 9 out of 10
Coaching - 7 out of 10
Stone Faced Expression as your World Collapses - 10 out of 10.

NH wins 8 out of 10 or something ?
SH top3 wins - 1 out of 6

People calling for SL's head?!

As a Welshman, please do sack him, you can replace him with Andy Robinson, or maybe bring Johnson back

Lancaster has done a huge amount right in correcting problems with English rugby, and you have to remember it takes time to build a team - 11 of the players on Saturday hadn't played at the MS before.

Give him a chance to correct his mistakes, if he is still selecting an out of form Ashton and selecting Lawes at 6 in a year, then by all means, sack him.

I'm not calling for SL's head.

I'm just not sure he was the correct choice in the first place.

I'd take a virtual Samurai sword to Andy Farrell though. Christ he's crap.

And I fear that we are about to do as much with this golden generation as the footy team did with the 90's one.

And we have a golden generation.

greytiger wrote:I'm not calling for SL's head.

I'm just not sure he was the correct choice in the first place.

I'd take a virtual Samurai sword to Andy Farrell though. Christ he's crap.

And I fear that we are about to do as much with this golden generation as the footy team did with the 90's one.

And we have a golden generation.

Why not? He's proven he can get his players to play crisp attacking rugby...stodgy wet weather rugby, has beaten the All Blacks, has won as many games this 6N as the holders of the title (with all the experience Wales have).

And now because the promised land wasn't reached, the rot begins to take hold again in the minds of fans? That pressure will now only grow on Lancaster. This is what some of us keep saying about England. Much too impatient and yet it's the impatience that keeps changing the leadership and stopping any chance of consistency being formed.

The players had a bad day at the office...a terrible day at the office. And probably a lot of the bad day revolved around yet again being dragged into these battles of superiority verses underdog attitude that Lancaster was said to have removed from his side.

The English players and some of the coaches muttered that they were prepared for the storm Wales would bring...but in truth, no - they weren't ready. And they weren't ready because they didn't expect the storm in reality. And they didn't expect it because they'd already planted in their subconscious (after one unfinished season) that they were the superior side again in Europe and wouldn't need too many gear shifts to take the crown.

Can't blame Lancaster for the mood sliding away again from humility. But does the defeat mean there should be yet again another succession, whereby a new head coach comes in - changes the team again, has a few losses again..begins to start winning again... begins to look promising again, begins to think less of the opposition again...begins to lose again..begins to look for a new coach again?

It's so easily indentifiable as an obsession or an addiction to the idea that a new head coach is always the answer. Ireland have the same head coach for five years now. We have an excuse for wanting rid of him England don't yet have sufficient evidence that their guy is the wrong man.

Well said Fly. English press mostly cannot be bothered with rugby, and totally lose their heads when they intermittently pay heed and notice things went well / went badly.
We have the right coach and sadly the wrong sportwriters.

SecretFly wrote:

greytiger wrote:I'm not calling for SL's head.

I'm just not sure he was the correct choice in the first place.

I'd take a virtual Samurai sword to Andy Farrell though. Christ he's crap.

And I fear that we are about to do as much with this golden generation as the footy team did with the 90's one.

And we have a golden generation.

Why not? He's proven he can get his players to play crisp attacking rugby...stodgy wet weather rugby, has beaten the All Blacks, has won as many games this 6N as the holders of the title (with all the experience Wales have).

And now because the promised land wasn't reached, the rot begins to take hold again in the minds of fans? That pressure will now only grow on Lancaster. This is what some of us keep saying about England. Much too impatient and yet it's the impatience that keeps changing the leadership and stopping any chance of consistency being formed.

The players had a bad day at the office...a terrible day at the office. And probably a lot of the bad day revolved around yet again being dragged into these battles of superiority verses underdog attitude that Lancaster was said to have removed from his side.

The English players and some of the coaches muttered that they were prepared for the storm Wales would bring...but in truth, no - they weren't ready. And they weren't ready because they didn't expect the storm in reality. And they didn't expect it because they'd already planted in their subconscious (after one unfinished season) that they were the superior side again in Europe and wouldn't need too many gear shifts to take the crown.

Can't blame Lancaster for the mood sliding away again from humility. But does the defeat mean there should be yet again another succession, whereby a new head coach comes in - changes the team again, has a few losses again..begins to start winning again... begins to look promising again, begins to think less of the opposition again...begins to lose again..begins to look for a new coach again?

It's so easily indentifiable as an obsession or an addiction to the idea that a new head coach is always the answer. Ireland have the same head coach for five years now. We have an excuse for wanting rid of him England don't yet have sufficient evidence that their guy is the wrong man.

I think the temptation is to say 'Oh it's the English being arrogant and getting ahead of themselves again.' Firstly, if that is true then it takes away the one major reason people waxed lyrical about SL. Secondly, it allows people to use a tired old cliche to gloss over glaring deficiencies in selection, coaching (unless they imply don't listen to the coaches) and tactics.

Personally, i didn't want SL as coach. He deserves some time to see if can rectify mistakes but, if i'm honest, I don't think he's capable of it and I think we've wasted an opportunity to get a top coaching team in place before a home WC.

There is absolutely no single area other than discipline that I can see England have markedly improved under SL. The breakdown looked promising but has taken a giant leap backwards after the Scotland game.

I've said it before and I'll say it again. It's not solely Stuart Lancaster that's a worry, it's the whole inexperienced coaching team.

We have:

Lancaster- Smart PR man and very good at coming across as humble and timid. But can he actually coach? Hasn't said anything in any interviews to point towards his input during the weeks spent coaching, other then getting a few famous sportmen to come and chat to the guys about winning, oh and a random footballer or two to sign autographs presumabely.

Catt- Brilliant playmaker in his day, no real coaching experience at any level except for an appallingly out of kilter London Irish. Did nothing to show he was a good coach, but was handily free over the summer for the SA tour (where we then did nothing).

A Farrel- Well known hard nut and no nonsense league player, don't talk about his union career. He played league so he must be amazing in defence. Oversaw Saracens backs at a time when they played the most god awful boring rugby going. He played league so is now our defence coach.

Rowntree- Has literally scrummaged against Neanderthal man. Has seen three different coaching regimes come and go and is credited with always getting the best from the pack in the scrum. Not sure if he had any coaching experience before this but he seems honest so is a good fit.

Now does that sound like a coaching set up that will challenge the best in the world, tier 1 or 2 teams or even Wales regularly?

If rowntree is so good then as scrum coach how did he manage to believe that a front five of Marler, youngs, cole, parling and launchbery could perform well against Wales' front five inc. the inform hooker of the 6N and 3 test lions?

They started Hartley over France due to his extra bulk.. But were confident enough to go with youngs against Wales?

Or does he have no say in players..... He's coached Jenkins, jones and jones on the last lions tour... Surely he should have known their relative tactics, strengths and weaknesses? England had no answers even though they had inside information.

Perhaps he was actually expecting us to be playing the gameplan that's successful for us? You know with faster forwards who offload out of contact and keep momentum building.

I also think he was expecting a lot more from Cole who's look really tired this 6N's

Was just reading the ESPN rugby pages and found this article.

The only thing is that this Argentina tour is going to have little relevance as Argentina won't have any of their overseas professionals and therefore wont field a strong team worthy of a decent test.


Lancaster ready to unleash young stars
ESPN Staff
March 20, 2013


Stuart Lancaster is ready to use the "critical" summer tour of Argentina as a vehicle to ramp up the pressure on established members of the England team - including captain Chris Robshaw.

Lancaster will be without a number of his senior players for the four-match trip to South America in June, with the likes of Robshaw, Tom Croft and Dan Cole among those set for British and Irish Lions duty. Lancaster will use his captain's absence as a golden chance to take a close look at Worcester's Matt Kvesic, Saracens' Will Fraser and Robshaw's Harlequins understudy Luke Wallace.

Wales, as Australia did in the autumn, proved the value of playing with an out-and-out ball-winning openside flanker against an England back row that was committed but unbalanced in Saturday's Six Nations decider. Cole has missed only one Test since his debut in 2010 but forwards coach Graham Rowntree is excited by the prospect of blooding Sale's Henry Thomas on the summer tour.

Lancaster is also ready to give Billy Twelvetrees another opportunity in midfield after the Gloucester centre was dropped to the bench two games into the Six Nations. The entire England back three are under pressure. Chris Ashton's form has plummeted while Alex Goode's full-back claims would be weakened by the inclusion of Twelvetrees as a ball-playing centre.

Lancaster has acknowledged the need for speed and power, which could precipitate Manu Tuilagi being moved to the wing while he also has the exciting trio of Christian Wade, Marland Yarde and Jonny May pressing their claims hard.

Two Tests in Argentina, against a side heading into their second season in the Rugby Championship, will be a fierce examination of those England youngsters - which is exactly what Lancaster is after.

"Argentina will be critical for us because we go to a hostile environment and put ourselves under pressure," Lancaster said. "That is why we want midweek games as well. It gives us a chance to work with a wider group of players and (see) which players can make the transition from club to country and play and deliver in a hostile environment.

"I don't see wholesale changes taking places. I see increased pressure on certain players, definitely, which is what should happen.

"In your back line you've got to have a balance of ball-carriers, finishers and creators - that's an important balance to achieve.

"Billy Twelvetrees is in our squad. We have him in our thoughts and now we've got him he'll be pushing very hard because a ball-player at 12 definitely helps.

"We need to look at players who can be the point of difference, players who can beat people one-on-one or go through a hole."

Lancaster will hold talks with each member of his squad before they head off on tour to ensure the lessons of Cardiff 2013 are channelled into turning England into world beaters.

"There are too many lessons to be learned from what happened at the weekend not to have those talks," Lancaster said, reflecting on the 30-3 Millennium Stadium loss.

England play two midweek matches, the first in Uruguay, and then two Tests on the summer tour.

That's pretty much everything I wanted to hear from Stuart Lancaster right about now. Great stuff.

He is very good at the media side of things isn't he.

Yeh, he seems to be. The thing I most like is that he doesn't make the England Elite squad seem insular to the everyday fan. He lets us know what is going on, and about the plans for the future.

Of course, given our poor performance at the weekend, basically what he has said is very obivous- we need to blood new talent who can attack and are exciting with ball in hand. It's just nice to hear a coach admit that.