Assessing Stuart Lancaster's performance so far

First topic message reminder :

With some fanfare about a year ago SL was appointed Archbishop of Twickenham (elect). And formally anointed last March.

How do you feel he's faring?

Given that it was a foregone conclusion that the England squad was going to be dismantled (especially after the shenanigans of senior players in the RWC), young blood was inevitable whoever was in charge.

But performances thus far are not exactly inspiring are they?

England stuttered their way on the back of two entertaining games in a very mediocre 6Ns last year to second spot, endured a very disappointing summer and have one realistic chance (however slim) of salvaging any semblance of respectability out of the autumn.

OK. the players are new and inexperienced. But are they being managed properly. Are SL's new lieutenants up to the job?

I want to see progress but what I sense is flat-lining.
SL appears to be fortunate with flush of talent from the academies providing some semblance of depth but can he bring that talent to the fore?

Or should MJ not have bowed to the media pressure to resign for the culpability of senior, trusted players (Jonny apart) going AWOL?
We'll never know.

greytiger wrote:You reckon that three years out you can consider England's RWC chances are unrealistic Ruby?

That's a bit harsh innit?

I think its fine to have realistic expectations but I don't think anyone will criticise SL for not winning the RWC in 2015 and I don't believe he is under pressure per se to do that, that would be unrealistic and unfair IMO - His goal is to try to get a team that's firstly able to compete with the 3 SH sides consistently and then perhaps start winning a few of them. If he can do that then IMO it would be a succesful tenure irrespective of RWC outcomes.

greytiger wrote:How many RWCs have been won since 1987 by a national coach on his first attempt?

I don't know.

But that's what's on Lancaster's plate with the added pressure of it being at home

Sill records (if there is one) are there to be broken I suppose.

There's only 2 coaches been given a 2nd crack after failing, SCW and Henry. The others all succeeded on their 1st attempt

SL has done a fantastic job considering the low point from where he started.

The Aus result last week was a brick wall which brought England rugby to a shuddering halt. Until then things had been going just fine. But here is my take :-

England played enough rugby to win that match in the second half. Flood and Robshaw decided to kick for touch in stead of taking the 3 points with 20 mins to go. This was a CATASTROPHIC decision in terms of the match result. That sort of wrong thinking under pressure should be able to be sorted very quickly as long as the team buy in to the idea that 3 points in a close match is better than no-try.

SL is doing just great and he will get better as long as people around him keep calm and carry on.

englandglory4ever wrote:SL has done a fantastic job considering the low point from where he started.

What, 6 nations champions and with a higher IRB ranking than they have now?
We even lose to Australia now.
Fantastic

PSB I'm talking about the debacle that was the RWC. We had over bloated old men who were crocked with serious injury hobbling around the pitch for England. They were good at dwarf throwing and drinking but not much cop at rugby.

"We had over bloated old men who were crocked"

That's a good point, now SL had brought in more dynamism with Waldrom, Morgan and Barritt

Regarding Stewart Lancster Performance so far. So Far So Good.

It is far to soon to be thinking about game losses. You cannot expect to win every game England play, i think he did rather well in the 6ns, better than i thought he would do to be honest. In the summer tour ok England did not get whitewashed lost 2 and drawn 1.

This Ais though has given England a rude wake up call, realising that their is still alot work to do. He also needs to look at the players that he is selecting. Owen Farrel? Is he realy good enough coming off the bench? Should he get put to one side ( dropped ) and Freddie Burns brought in instead. A win against SA will get all the England Douters off his back. But then how the last game against NZ goes. well that could be the icing on the cake.( if England win ) that is.

How the next 6ns goes will tell us more, not only about Stewart Lancaster. But also his coaching of the England team.

Pros:
1) He's brought the group together.
2) Despite Saturdays blip....the actual scrum has been very strong.
3) There has been a noticeable improvement at the breakdown.

Cons:
1) Selection issues still dog the england management...Farrell, Dowson, Garvey not even looked at in a position we are crying out for...etc
2) The Breakdown has not improved enough
3) The defence is not as secure as many seem to think...

When he was chosen I felt that he was too inexperienced and unproven. The coaching team that he selected around himself just reinforces this for me aswell.

He has done very well at winning over the press (although he's losing them now as results get away from him) but I really wish we ahd someone with real experience either above him or under him.

yappysnap wrote:When he was chosen I felt that he was too inexperienced and unproven. The coaching team that he selected around himself just reinforces this for me aswell.

He has done very well at winning over the press (although he's losing them now as results get away from him) but I really wish we ahd someone with real experience either above him or under him.

You've got Rob Andrew there Yappy

GeordieFalcon wrote:Pros:
1) He's brought the group together.
2) Despite Saturdays blip....the actual scrum has been very strong.
3) There has been a noticeable improvement at the breakdown.

Cons:
1) Selection issues still dog the england management...Farrell, Dowson, Garvey not even looked at in a position we are crying out for...etc
2) The Breakdown has not improved enough
3) The defence is not as secure as many seem to think...

In terms of technical preparation - particularly of an inexperienced squad - there are a lot of positives. England were in the game with Australia right to the end, had multiple chances to win it, and would probably have been closer but for some poor reffing of the scrum by the assistant ref (repeat after me: if the LH fails to make a bind because the TH is binding on the end of the sleeve, it's a penalty to the LH's side).

There are two big question marks open at the moment - and it's hard to tell whether these are coaching issues or an inevitable result of having a squad so inexperienced that if you put Jason Leonard on the bench, the total caps would go up by 50%:
1) Mental preparation - in both the Aus game and the first two SA games, England did not come into the game at full tilt, and got hit because of it
2) Decision-making on the field. To be honest, the decision to go for the try and not the 3 pointer felt to me like the right thing to do at the time; that it didn't come off led to a bad outcome. But across the field there was evidence of bad decision-making - not enough commitment to rucks, failure to pass, back three out of position...

These are the two things that SL needs to improve in the squad - and fast - but to be fair to him, we have to acknowledge that he's working with a group of players who haven't got experience of doing it at international level, and his most experienced players (Flood, Hartley, Care) are not noted for having been great decision-makers in the past. It took SCW nearly 4 years to get this consistently right with a much more experienced group of players, but to be realistic contenders against the SH England need to learn how to make those calls quickly.

GeordieFalcon wrote:Pros:
1) He's brought the group together. Has he? He's talked about it but how do you measure that?
2) Despite Saturdays blip....the actual scrum has been very strong. It was strong before, due to Rowntree. Johnson had brought in Hartley, Cole, Doran-Jones, Corbisiero and Wilson. Marler wasn't ready. I can't seen much difference personally
3) There has been a noticeable improvement at the breakdown.Has there? Some games it's good, others it's bad. Same as before (remember in 2009 we had quick ball in the 6 nations and scored loads of tries)

Cons:
1) Selection issues still dog the england management...Farrell, Dowson, Garvey not even looked at in a position we are crying out for...etc this will always be an issue. Partly becasue everyone has different opinions and partly because us fans only have tiny bit of information about players to go on (on field stuff)
2) The Breakdown has not improved enough Still variable and is the same at club level in Europe
3) The defence is not as secure as many seem to think...Some bad organisation, new players often have that but the team is relatively settled now so should know better. Two new guys in the back three though

Has Lancaster actually done anyhting different to Johnson other than discipline (which at the World Cup was taken out of his hands wasn't it? I seem to remember reading that Andrew hired a discipline specialist)

Draging Andrew into this debate is a cute and relevant diversion - he's the General Melchett of the whole Blackadder SL comes fourth debate.

How does he sit in a bunker miles behind the lines (except occasionally from a comfy chair to witness the carnage) and get away with it? He was the man early in the disaster that was the RWC Somme re-enactment who bravely stayed at home.

HammerofThunor wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:Pros:
1) He's brought the group together. Has he? He's talked about it but how do you measure that?
2) Despite Saturdays blip....the actual scrum has been very strong. It was strong before, due to Rowntree. Johnson had brought in Hartley, Cole, Doran-Jones, Corbisiero and Wilson. Marler wasn't ready. I can't seen much difference personally
3) There has been a noticeable improvement at the breakdown.Has there? Some games it's good, others it's bad. Same as before (remember in 2009 we had quick ball in the 6 nations and scored loads of tries)

Cons:
1) Selection issues still dog the england management...Farrell, Dowson, Garvey not even looked at in a position we are crying out for...etc this will always be an issue. Partly becasue everyone has different opinions and partly because us fans only have tiny bit of information about players to go on (on field stuff)
2) The Breakdown has not improved enough Still variable and is the same at club level in Europe
3) The defence is not as secure as many seem to think...Some bad organisation, new players often have that but the team is relatively settled now so should know better. Two new guys in the back three though

Has Lancaster actually done anyhting different to Johnson other than discipline (which at the World Cup was taken out of his hands wasn't it? I seem to remember reading that Andrew hired a discipline specialist)

Yes hes picked Brown who Johnson dropped for his first games in charge oafter his poor discpline on the toru led by Rob Andrew

I don’t believe the loss to Aus was a blip – it was a reality check. We lost a game we absolutely had to win if only to convince us that England are making progress. The current England is a worse side than Jonno’s best in most respects (apart apparently from attitude – which is nice). It shows to me that with a few injuries we are somewhere between average and half-decent; at least we have 3 years to sort it. If we could decide on a 1st choice side and keep it fit, available and in form we’d be able to fully compete with the SH, but injuries are a way of life in professional rugby. We were out-thought (and outplayed) by Aus. And we are routinely out-muscled (and outplayed) by SA.

If we beat SA I’ll be a full-on SL supporter. But I think a mark of a good manager/coach is the ability of the people he surrounds himself with. And SL’s coaching team looks a bit lightweight to me. He needs at least a proven experienced backs attack coach, and maybe some help for Rowntree. England shouldn't being a proving ground for new and inexperienced coaches (just players ).

Barney - MJ's team were blown away by France in the RWC, SL's developing team beat them in Paris. I think most of this is unfair on SL

RubyGuby wrote:Barney - MJ's team were blown away by France in the RWC, SL's developing team beat them in Paris. I think most of this is unfair on SL

19-12 is hardly blown away. Its more defending Johnosn against unfair criticism and historical revisionism than attacks on Lancaster, the fact is that despite the "debacle" of the world cup where they only beat rubbish teams like Argentia Johnsons England had a better last 6 natiosn than Lancasters did, and a better last summer tour, and so far a better last lot of AI's too. Yet Lancatser get praised on his record and Johnson hammered for his.

*shrug*

I said Jonno's best. Jonno lost his nerve, and that was not his best

Tempus fugit Barney.

That three years you are speaking of is already just 2½.

I suppose that there is no practicable way to remove SL (maybe a wooden spoon in the 6Ns might provide enough impetus even for the RFU to admit a mistake (if indeed they have made one).

And then they would have to find a new replacement by picking the sweetest confectionery on the shelf.

I seem to recall that just a few weeks prior to Lancaster's appointment there was a run on Mallinder bars.

Next time - who knows? Cockerill crunch? Deano vampire bites perhaps...?

Touch of the melodrama Barney. We've gone from a lucky charge down try win over to Scotland to pushing the world no.2 side in less than a year. What more do you want?

"Johnsons England had a better last 6 natiosn than Lancasters did,"

Both won 4/5, one with an experienced team and one with a raw new team. France were 16-0 up and England scrambled in the end. Which of MJ's revisions are you trying to rethink here as he was not developing the team

MJ did bring in Manu, Ashton, Foden, Barritt, robshaw, Attwood, Corbs, PDJ so there was a fair bit of development going on.

It would have been interesting to see how he dealt with Tins, Sheridan, Wilkinson, Hape and Shaw retiring or moving abroad.

See this is the thing...on one side we have a Lancasterian claiming hes done well for turning the sh1te he put out his first game to the sort of side who can lose to Australia (so on a par with Wales at their best)...then we have another claiming his 6 nations side was brilliant....in which case shouldnt we be bemoaning that they have slipped?

Yknow its all a matter of spin isnt it. Which was my point.

Lets not get carried away if ENG Beat the boks on Saturday... They are heavily depleted after a long season and will go into the match without their first choice loose head, hooker, lock, openside, fly half, wing and inside centre.

Not just that, the boks haven't been this lacking in experience since 2004.

A win on its own vs the boks at home won't necessarily mean that they're on the right track... Win well and then back it up vs. the ABs then I will agree with the optimists... Until then I lack a little faith in SL.

For me he just doesn't have any ideas into how to crack down top quality defences. Sure he knows how to organise a defence but for England to mount a serious challenge in 3 years time they need to start to building momentum now.

The team have many talented individuals... They just need a little guidance, a little spark of imagination... Something we've yet to see.

fa0019 wrote:Lets not get carried away if ENG Beat the boks on Saturday... They are heavily depleted after a long season and will go into the match without their first choice loose head, hooker, lock, openside, fly half, wing and inside centre.

Not just that, the boks haven't been this lacking in experience since 2004.

A win on its own vs the boks at home won't necessarily mean that they're on the right track... Win well and then back it up vs. the ABs then I will agree with the optimists... Until then I lack a little faith in SL.

For me he just doesn't have any ideas into how to crack down top quality defences. Sure he knows how to organise a defence but for England to mount a serious challenge in 3 years time they need to start to building momentum now.

The team have many talented individuals... They just need a little guidance, a little spark of imagination... Something we've yet to see.

Similar scenario as to Johnsons AI's during 2010?

SL has a target of winning the next RWC. He has selected a team of young guns which are way off being world beaters in the hope that they will come good by 2015. These early results are not something that will worry them too much at this stage as long as they are there or there abouts. ie, As long as they don't get turned over by 3rd tier teams and they continue to show improvement all will be well.

Currently the England pack hasn't got the required grunt or composure under pressure to beat the big teams. Plenty of energy but just not strong enough. Hopefully this will improve over the next couple of years. If it doesn't then we are in trouble and so is SL.

eg4e, If however England don't beat the Boks (as it's safe to say the have a snowball's chance in Hell against the ABs), then some or many representatives of the press and the media pundits will be mustering slowly like vultures in circling over dying carrion.

Nobody will be fooled by the fact that whilst England are rebuilding, Aus and the Saffers are equally in their own ways, shadow sides

Then the pressure on England in the 6Ns will mount and SL will be under extreme pressure to deliver results - and with some style.

A victory over the Boks is a must if only to buy time.

If that is true greytiger them the problem is with the fans expectations at this stage and not with SL

"A victory over the Boks is a must if only to buy time."

GTiger I'm not sure a win is a 'must' at this stage but they must get pretty close to them that's for sure. A loss will be mighty disappointing for everyone but in reality this England side is not going to start beating the world's best over night.

I hope to see some composure and a very close scoreline. Win or lose. If we get humped that will be a bigger problem.

The fans will be happy enough as long as we see that the team is moving in the right direction. The media however, are another issue entirely.

I'm not sure that the media lead fans' expectations or vice versa or both.

Scotland, Wales and Ireland each have media pressures on their national coaches.

But the pressure to produce is ever-present.

Ozzy3213 wrote:The fans will be happy enough as long as we see that the team is moving in the right direction. The media however, are another issue entirely.

I can't see a lot of forward motion Oz. As I stated and described in the OP.

-1 point after the latest team selection.

obviously I don't know how well training has gone and how team dynamics are effected but I would have benched Manu as an impact sub and started JJ instead.

We have a centre who cannot do his job which is to run spaces, or draw players and offload and ONLY crash ball it if the defence is flaky.

the Saffie defence is NOT going to be flaky and even if Manu take two people with him the overlap is wasted as he doesn't have the hands or the vision to past the bloody ball!!!

You see i dont find the problem is Tuilagi...i find the problem is Barritt...hes again shown nothing like the required ability offensively...though can i stress that he's not had much help from his pack.

Put Twelvetrees who can pass beside Tuilagi and it will be better.

Abramovich for Director of Rugby ?
He can 'assess' his team managers.. had loadsa practice.

I agree with GF.Manu has the ability to pass. And he's not Alesana who was just a bosh winger par excellence.

Barritt just doesn't seem to have a creative bone in his body. I'd pick 36 inside Manu and a de-Farrelled Ashton/Sharples outside.

Blimey only just seen the latest slections ...very choppy, but no sign of any fundamental change in the way England will be shaped and approach the game.
With Care...are we back to the days of "one bad game and youre out" ?



Geordie...the problem is with both of them together, its very one dimensional and the sort of combination that Johnson got hammeered for picking. The Fiji game offered a glimmer using Goode in the midfield when attacking which I assume is why hes persisting with it...that plus we know the Boks will try and shove England off the park.
If it came down to just one of them it really depends who comes in...if its JJ then youre looking for a 12, frnakly Manu is wasted there and becomes a battering ram. He cant/wont pass or offload and we are back to Banahan. If its 36 coming in the obviously Manu keeps his place and hopefuly the line gets a bit more spark and unpredictability from 36s all round game.

I think even with Twelvetrees you need a player who can add pace and pass at outside centre to complement him.

Look at some of your previously successful partnerships in midfield, Carling Guscott, Carling strong, abrasive but also had a good pass, kick and create space. Guscott fast and an elusive runner who knew a great angle.

Greenwood and Tindall similarly, Greenwood was a great footballer with fantastic vision and endeavour.

Twelvetrees looks to have the endeavour and ability of a Greenwood-esq player just needs a partner who can pass and has pace.


I dont understand why Twelvetrees hasn't been given any opportunity yet?

there must be a reason that was flagged up, fitness, strength, defence stats etc

Has he been part of the EPS at all yet, maybe he rubbed other players or the coaches up the wrong way?

maestegmafia wrote:I think even with Twelvetrees you need a player who can add pace and pass at outside centre to complement him.

Look at some of your previously successful partnerships in midfield, Carling Guscott, Carling strong, abrasive but also had a good pass, kick and create space. Guscott fast and an elusive runner who knew a great angle.

Greenwood and Tindall similarly, Greenwood was a great footballer with fantastic vision and endeavour.

Twelvetrees looks to have the endeavour and ability of a Greenwood-esq player just needs a partner who can pass and has pace.


I dont understand why Twelvetrees hasn't been given any opportunity yet?

That's the EPS system for you maes.

You can't go on just picking the best team.

You have to get on with the rules laid out by Brains Trust currently embodied by Squeaky and the PRL.

Now there's a font of wisdom for you...

36 didn't get the most game time exposure at Tigers.
We are glad to have him here at Glos, where he making a significant contribution this season. Leave him be for now, but I'd be surprised if he is not in the EPS (is there a time window ? ) for the 6N.

greytiger wrote:I agree with GF.Manu has the ability to pass. And he's not Alesana who was just a bosh winger par excellence.

Barritt just doesn't seem to have a creative bone in his body. I'd pick 36 inside Manu and a de-Farrelled Ashton/Sharples outside.

Typical rubbish expected from you porntoy.

Who made the pass to Tuilagi when he scored his try?

Tuilagi needs to learn to pass the bloody ball.

You Tigers fans like to stick your heads in the sand - it's never our players' fault.

Oh Youngs had another appalling game when he came on. What's the excuse this time? When he's bad he's very bad.

Youngs (hooker) is lauded as a hero yet his missed some tackles including one which led to the Aussie try.

Flood was mediocre. No more than that. Not enough creativity from him. No effort on his part to bring the wingers into the game.

Beshocked.


Why do you always need to be so damned aggressive and petulant?

gregortree wrote:36 didn't get the most game time exposure at Tigers.
We are glad to have him here at Glos, where he making a significant contribution this season. Leave him be for now, but I'd be surprised if he is not in the EPS (is there a time window ? ) for the 6N.

I thought he was in the squad. The greater squad at least...?

Just checked and you have Allen there who would surely be better.

damage_13 wrote:there must be a reason that was flagged up, fitness, strength, defence stats etc

Has he been part of the EPS at all yet, maybe he rubbed other players or the coaches up the wrong way?

Not really. Lack of gametime at Tigers would be the most obvious, followe dby injury at the wrong time. And Brad Barrit deservedlty getting the call up when he did. ... lets not forget he also earned a lot of credit for his tackling and workrate in the 6 nations, he did "do a job".

Twelvetrees is on the edges of the England sqaud still, and is a Lancaster Saxon. If/When they finaly get over having a pure boshing/tackling center he is at the frnt of the queue.

As for pace outside him, Tuilagui is hardly lacking in that department. He may not quite have the Tait/JSD headless chicken danciness of JJ/May but he makes up for that by his threat of physical power and ability to run through as well as past players.

I think theyd make a great combination, but as with any player (except Ashton) 36 does have to earn a spot in the side by performances at club level.

Anthony Allen is a very good club player, but not good enough for international Rugby.

LondonTiger wrote:Beshocked.


Why do you always need to be so damned aggressive and petulant?

You could ask Danny Care the same question

or like ROG (on another thread btw)

maestegmafia wrote:

gregortree wrote:36 didn't get the most game time exposure at Tigers.
We are glad to have him here at Glos, where he making a significant contribution this season. Leave him be for now, but I'd be surprised if he is not in the EPS (is there a time window ? ) for the 6N.

I thought he was in the squad. The greater squad at least...?

Just checked and you have Allen there who would surely be better.

He called up alongside Burns for injury cover I think.

Gregortree, 5 or 6 changes in January for the actual EPS squad (not counting injury replacements)

thanks Hammer