Keeping the Wheels on - AKA England's next EPS

First topic message reminder :

After a remarkable finish to the Autumn series Stuart Lancaster and his coaches next mission will be the new years EPS. Chosen in January it will not be open for change until Sep that year (except swaps for injuries) so he'll need to plan well and pick not only on current form but prior experience and future potential.

In the final game of the AI's the starting team that day showed the route that England rugby needs to take on the pitch; hard and aggressive up front with the pack sharing the duties of fetching, carrying and rucking amongst a core group of multi skilled players rather then selecting various specialists for one or two specific roles. In the backs we say a few glimpses of the Catt/Farrel/Lancaster triumvirate in action with Youngs getting some quick ball and kicking well, and the 10 drawing his centres up to the line at pace and actually giving Tuilagi good ball to use. The left wing and full back then create momentum from the back by beating their first man when countering and staying tall in the tackle to wait for support.

Of course there were players who failed to cover themselves in glory like wise others who were never deemed good enough to get a chance or who were only in because of multiple injuries. These I expect to see fall by the road side next year.

The current England Elite Player Squad

Forwards (17)
Props
Alex Corbisiero (London Irish), Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers), Joe Marler (Harlequins), David Wilson (Bath Rugby), Mako Vunipola (Saracens)
Hookers
Dylan Hartley (Northampton Saints), Rob Webber (Bath Rugby) Tom Youngs (Leicester Tigers), David Paice (London Irish)
Locks
Mouritz Botha (Saracens), Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints), Tom Palmer (London Wasps), Geoff Parling (Leicester Tigers) Joe Launchberry (London Wasps)
Flankers
Tom Croft (Leicester Tigers), Phil Dowson (Northampton Saints), Tom Johnson (Exeter Chiefs), Chris Robshaw (Harlequins), Tom Wood (Northampton Saints) James Haskell (London Wasps)
No 8's
Ben Morgan (Gloucester Rugby), Thomas Waldrom (Leicester Tigers)


Backs (15)
Scrum Halfs
Lee Dickson (Northampton Saints), Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers), Danny Care (Harlequins)
Fly Halfs
Owen Farrell (Saracens), Toby Flood (Leicester Tigers), Freddie Burns (Gloucester Rugby)
Centers
Anthony Allan (Leicester Tigers), Brad Barritt (Saracens), Manusamoa Tuilagi (Leicester Tigers), Jordan Turner-Hall (Harlequins), Johnathen Joseph (London Irish) Billy Twelvetrees (Gloucester Rugby)
Wings
Chris Ashton (Northampton Saints), Charlie Sharples (Gloucester Rugby), (Ugo Monye (Harlequins))
Fullbacks
Mike Brown (Harlequins), Ben Foden (Northampton Saints), Alex Goode (Saracens)

Players in italics were the latest changes allowed through injury or retirement (potentially the most likely to lose their spots again).

So to me the bulk of that 32 man squad looks about right, there are still quite a few players that are potentially a little worried about their places now:

Mako Vunipola (only came in for an injured Corbs but didn't look too comfy at times)
Rob Webber (Youngs looked a lot better and Hartley is still first choice)
David Paice (only came in for an injured Webber, didn't play better then Youngs or Hartley)
Mauritz Botha (just not an international lock, shown up completely by Launchberry)
Tom Palmer (anonymous around the park and not good enough at lineout time)
Courtney Lawes (injured a lot, is he big enough to partner Parling or athletic enough to partner Launchberry)
Tom Johnson (just doesn't play the style that England seem to need)
Tom Croft (injured and does his style fit England)
Phil Dowson (over 30 and can't make the match day 23)
James Haskell (Only came in for injuries, not sure if he did enough to stay)
Thomas Waldrom (pushed out of the starting lineup and hardly likely to make the bench)
Lee Dickson (can't make the match day 23)
Anthony Allan (can not make the 23, average club player)
Brad Barritt (bar one game looked out of his depth, potentially a new Noone)
Jordan Turner Hall (Like Barritt but less pace and no real vision, injured at a bad time)
Chris Ashton (A media darling but lazy in defence and pretty anonymous in most games, riding on rep at the moment)
Ugo Monye (only called up for injuries, didn't do enough)
Charlie Sharples (poor defence let him down)
Ben Foden (unlucky with an injury and now has two critical players in front of him)

Now I don't think all of these players will go, but there are a few who are near certainties.

Yappysnap's Elite Player Squad
Forwards (17)
Props
Alex Corbisiero (London Irish), Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers), Joe Marler (Harlequins), David Wilson (Bath Rugby), Nick Wood (Gloucester Rugby)
Hookers
Dylan Hartley (Northampton Saints), Tom Youngs (Leicester Tigers)
Locks
Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints), Geoff Parling (Leicester Tigers), Joe Launchberry (London Wasps), David Attwood (Bath Rugby)
Flankers
Tom Croft (Leicester Tigers), Chris Robshaw (Harlequins), Tom Wood (Northampton Saints), James Haskell (London Wasps)
No 8's
Ben Morgan (Gloucester Rugby), Billy Vunipola (London Wasps)

Backs (15)
Scrum Halfs
Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers), Danny Care (Harlequins)
Fly Halfs
Owen Farrell (Saracens), Toby Flood (Leicester Tigers), Freddie Burns (Gloucester Rugby)
Centers
Brad Barritt (Saracens), Manusamoa Tuilagi (Leicester Tigers), George Lowe (Harlequins), Billy Twelvetrees (Gloucester Rugby), Kyle Eastmond (Bath)
Wings
Chris Ashton (Northampton Saints),Christian Wade (Wasps)
Fullbacks
Mike Brown (Harlequins), Ben Foden (Northampton Saints), Alex Goode (Saracens)

The changes are
David Wilson did enough to get in to the EPS permanently
Nick Wood comes in to replace Vunipola as a trial
Tom Youngs replaces Webber as very real competition for Hartley
Dave Attwood comes in for Palmer to add some bulk and physicality if needed
James Haskell takes Johnsons place as he adds a bit more physicality and covers the back three
Billy Vunipola is trialled in Waldroms place to see his carrying game
Freddue Burns gets a permanent spot for Hodgeson
George Lowe, Billy Twelvetrees and Kyle Eastmond all come in to the squad to trial different attributes in the centres as well as cover the wings if needed.
Christian Wade comes in on the wing

Cumbrian wrote:

viewtothegym wrote:Why so much deliberating over a matter any of you have zero control over?

Lets just tear the flesh off the subject and bring it down to it's bare bones-

Who said the wheels are on the wagon?
Worlds largest and richest Union wins a 6 nation championship in a decade,no slam or crown just beat Italy by more than everyone else that year.
Beat a virus ridden AllBlacks team,even Lancaster looked shocked at the win.

No obvious game plan beyond inside ball and defend.

A raft of Journey men have made England a harder team to beat but not world class, Scotland and Italy can be hard to beat.

Hard facts along with a healthy dose of reality is prescribed for you lot from Doctor View, take twice daily.

That's not even true either, Six Nations 2011 England finished on 8 points whilst France, Ireland and Wales finished on 6. The number of points scored against Italy had nothing to do with it in the end.

Well done on winning a championship on 8 points with no slam or crown! kind of like watching porn pix elated

Thanks, but we don't need your applause.

What's up with you today anyway? This is the second rather tart post I've seen from you in as many minutes. You seem to be roving around the board like a bear with a bad head.

Bored,hate the snow,wish i was tanning my back on he French riviera,missus is ill in bed,got three kids around my feet,my team Scarlets got manshamed.
Get the point? got to pay this badness forward only then can equilibrium be achieved.

Could be worse you could be a Saints fan.

Oh and as much as I wouldn wish injury on any one, it was a little ironic to see Callum Clark have to leave the pitch early with a possible dislocation of the shoulder. What goes around comes around and all that...

See Freddie Burns is awaiting knee ligament scan results...

Deacon is a very good club player and solid at international level, personally I want a bit more than he is able to offer though. Unless there is an injury whoever is called up is unlikely to play, so I'd rather England take the opportunity to look at and develop the likes of Kitchener or Slater. If Parling gets injured and we need a lineout leader, fine call up Deacon, shove him straight in and with his experience he'll be ready to go.

Quite aside from all that, I really wouldn't be confident about Deacon staying injury free for any amount of time, which would just be training time lost for any player that is eventually called in to replace him.

I agree on Deacon...id rather we brought through one of Kitchener, Slater or Kruis...all looking impressive..

To be honest, Louis Deacon has played 29 tests and I can't ever think of anything of note that he has done in that time. He's a good solid professional that is decent at Premiership/ Heineken Cup level, but at 32 I don't think decent is enough. If you're going to include a guy of his age he (IMO) needs to be head and shoulders above his competitors.

The question is, is he that much better than his rivals? Also consider that he may be a bit better than them right now and for the next year or so, but not after that. Then you'll be in a position where you've got a promising lock that could have had international experience (but doesn't) and a retired Louis Deacon.

GeordieFalcon wrote:See Freddie Burns is awaiting knee ligament scan results...

Lets hope it is not that bad and he will play in the 6ns.

Louis Deacon gets man of the match vs Tolouse today including a couple of steals in the lineout. There's a time and place for the big man and if England need some grunt in the pack then he's the man to call up. As a player in the Saxons, nah, those games are better for the younger guys. I expect him to be released back to Tigers unless Launchbury picks up an injury.

I've heard a rumour Brookes may be called up to the Saxons which would be an odd call.

The England coaches obviously feel Brookes has more potential than Cockerill does.

I don't think there is any more point in calling up Deacon than in calling up Easter.

Burns has a medial injury - if he misses the 6 Nations that's a shame but at least it isn't a possible cruciate.

The Saxons' squad is interesting - either Daly or May at fullback, and it's not clear what position Eastmond is seen as covering (I'm wondering about inside centre or even FH).

Kvesic, Botha & Monye have been called up as cover for Johnson, Clark & Burns in the EPS gathering in Leeds tonight.

The Saxons are adding Gibson & Crane as replacements for Kvesic & Vunipola; then Buchanan, Wood, Kruis & Brookes as cover for Paice, Catt, Palmer & Thomas.

http://www.espnscrum.com/six-nations-2013/rugby/story/175908.html

Brookes has been injured. He missed nearly all of last season and by the time he was fit this season he was behind the younger Balmain. Tigers DR'd him with Doncaster to get game time where he picked up another injury. I can't imagine he's been back long and because of the new A league structure limited time for him to take Balmain and the big guns on in the pecking order.

Good replacements generally, but, Botha?

And who replaces Burns if he drops out? Heathcote might have jumped too early - who else is there?

Farrell and Flood then I suppose Ford? 36 as cover? Or a real tyro like Joel Hodgson?

Sorry Hodgson was a silly suggestion, ignore that one

Options would be:

- Myler
- Lamb
- Cipriani
- Geraghty (just showing the first faint hints of form by the sounds of it)
- Ask Hodgson (or Wilkinson) to come out of retirement temporarily
- Play Alex Goode there

I'd probably favour the last of these.

Is Botica EQed? If Clegg had left Quins a year or two back he may have been a contender.

formerly known as Sam wrote:Brookes has been injured. He missed nearly all of last season and by the time he was fit this season he was behind the younger Balmain. Tigers DR'd him with Doncaster to get game time where he picked up another injury. I can't imagine he's been back long and because of the new A league structure limited time for him to take Balmain and the big guns on in the pecking order.

I know he's been injured, and he may well have legitimately fallen behind Balmain, but the England coaches obviously rate him and I see he's being linked with Bath (as is Micky Young, in addition to George Ford). Just looks like one of those moves which hasn't worked out.

Botica has an British passport but isn't EQed yet, as his time in the UK was before he played rugby

Myler is competent but doesnt sound like he'd be that great an option. Lamb and Clegg seem to have fallen by the wayside.

Cipriani should be good enough but isnt - certainly at the moment.

Geraghty is another who should have kicked on. He's been unlucky. I also cant remember hearing about him kicking much

Ford isnt ready yet

So we might still end up rolling one of the retirees (or even Wigglesworth) out onto the bench in the event of an injury to Farrell or Flood.

Alex Goode is injured. I wouldnt mind seeing him there either - kicking may be an issue again.

ChequeredJersey wrote:Sorry Hodgson was a silly suggestion, ignore that one

Yes i think we'll let that one go

Maybe a look in the Saxons next season however...

DaveM wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:Brookes has been injured. He missed nearly all of last season and by the time he was fit this season he was behind the younger Balmain. Tigers DR'd him with Doncaster to get game time where he picked up another injury. I can't imagine he's been back long and because of the new A league structure limited time for him to take Balmain and the big guns on in the pecking order.

I know he's been injured, and he may well have legitimately fallen behind Balmain, but the England coaches obviously rate him and I see he's being linked with Bath (as is Micky Young, in addition to George Ford). Just looks like one of those moves which hasn't worked out.

Just add him to the list...Alex Gray, Rory Clegg, Davy Wilson ....notice a trend....

Yeah,they all came from the ffamous falcons academy.was rob miller another?

They did...but i think the key is they were so desperate to move to "bigger better "clubs that they sacrificed what they needed at their age...regular games which they would have got with us...Nevermind.

Yes Rob Miller was another one...

No doubt they would of developed quicker if they stayed put until they were say 23/25 in the case of clegg and young in particular.just goes to show the lack of loyalty in professional sport nowadays.shame really!!

lostinwales wrote:Myler is competent but doesnt sound like he'd be that great an option. Lamb and Clegg seem to have fallen by the wayside.

Cipriani should be good enough but isnt - certainly at the moment.

Geraghty is another who should have kicked on. He's been unlucky. I also cant remember hearing about him kicking much

Ford isnt ready yet

So we might still end up rolling one of the retirees (or even Wigglesworth) out onto the bench in the event of an injury to Farrell or Flood.

Alex Goode is injured. I wouldnt mind seeing him there either - kicking may be an issue again.

Alex Goode is actually a good place kicker. Admittedly he hasn't kicked in a while. Hasn't played at 10 for a long time either.


Geordiefalcon why don't you re-sign those players? I am sure they might consider it.

To be honest mate we have players coming through in their positions so we dont really need them....its other positions we need.

And on a personal note...im not sure i would want to take back players who were so desperate to get away...

I wouldn't seeing Wilson pull on a Falcons shirt again, I seem to remember that he said he’s like to return to the North East at some point.

I wouldn’t mind Alex Gray back either, I reckon Richards could do a lot to improve his game.

Cleggy is beginning to look like a busted flush unfortunately.

I’d tear your arm off to get Rob Miller back.

Maybe they just stood out more in a poor team *shrug*

couldn't hack it in the big boy clubs

timhen wrote:Kvesic, Botha & Monye have been called up as cover for Johnson, Clark & Burns in the EPS gathering in Leeds tonight.

The Saxons are adding Gibson & Crane as replacements for Kvesic & Vunipola; then Buchanan, Wood, Kruis & Brookes as cover for Paice, Catt, Palmer & Thomas.

http://www.espnscrum.com/six-nations-2013/rugby/story/175908.html

So which of them is covering FH

It does appear that Lancatser doesnt have much faith in the depth of his resources here, unless he considers the like of Goode and 36 as potential injury/replacement cover

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:

timhen wrote:Kvesic, Botha & Monye have been called up as cover for Johnson, Clark & Burns in the EPS gathering in Leeds tonight.

The Saxons are adding Gibson & Crane as replacements for Kvesic & Vunipola; then Buchanan, Wood, Kruis & Brookes as cover for Paice, Catt, Palmer & Thomas.

http://www.espnscrum.com/six-nations-2013/rugby/story/175908.html

So which of them is covering FH

It does appear that Lancatser doesnt have much faith in the depth of his resources here, unless he considers the like of Goode and 36 as potential injury/replacement cover

Monye will show his versatility. After his successful performance at FB for England he will show that he can have an equal impact at fly half.

Impact is definitely the word! Not sure if it'll be a performance that any fly half will ever manage to copy though...

I assume Farrel, Flood, 36 and Goode between them can cover the 10 position, don't forget that Barritt played fly half once but we may need a psychiatrist to get those memories out of him now.

I think people's views on Clegg are a bit harsh, actually. He is, if anything, a better distributor of the ball than Evans and, when he has had a run in the team for Quins, he's done a good job of running the game in some difficult circumstances.

He's got three problems - i) he's in the middle of an extended slump in his place-kicking; ii) he's not the attacking threat that Evans is with ball-in-hand (who is?) but tends to try and play in a similar style, rather than knowing when to run; iii) the team takes time to adapt to his style, so he's less effective coming on as a replacement.

Ben Botica plays in a very similar way to Evans and slots into the team much more easily, hence he's become Quins' #2. But I think that a team that was prepared to commit to Rory as their first choice could make a very good player out of him without much effort.

yappysnap wrote:Impact is definitely the word! Not sure if it'll be a performance that any fly half will ever manage to copy though...

I assume Farrel, Flood, 36 and Goode between them can cover the 10 position, don't forget that Barritt played fly half once but we may need a psychiatrist to get those memories out of him now.

They can offer matchday emergency replacement cover, but neither 36 nor Goode are realistic long term possible England 10's surely.
This suggests that beyond Flood Burns and Farrell, plus Hodgson as crisis cover, Lancaster doesnt see anyone else as worth wasting time on currently.

timhen wrote:Kvesic, Botha & Monye have been called up as cover for Johnson, Clark & Burns in the EPS gathering in Leeds tonight.

The Saxons are adding Gibson & Crane as replacements for Kvesic & Vunipola; then Buchanan, Wood, Kruis & Brookes as cover for Paice, Catt, Palmer & Thomas.

http://www.espnscrum.com/six-nations-2013/rugby/story/175908.html

England count cost of brusing weekend? Why don't these people making these articles use spellchecker?

beshocked wrote:

timhen wrote:Kvesic, Botha & Monye have been called up as cover for Johnson, Clark & Burns in the EPS gathering in Leeds tonight.

The Saxons are adding Gibson & Crane as replacements for Kvesic & Vunipola; then Buchanan, Wood, Kruis & Brookes as cover for Paice, Catt, Palmer & Thomas.

http://www.espnscrum.com/six-nations-2013/rugby/story/175908.html

England count cost of brusing weekend? Why don't these people making these articles use spellchecker?

Because when you're adding Kvesic, Botha, Monye, Vunipola, Buchanan and Kruis to your article, a spellchecker is going to do more harm than good...

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:

yappysnap wrote:Impact is definitely the word! Not sure if it'll be a performance that any fly half will ever manage to copy though...

I assume Farrel, Flood, 36 and Goode between them can cover the 10 position, don't forget that Barritt played fly half once but we may need a psychiatrist to get those memories out of him now.

They can offer matchday emergency replacement cover, but neither 36 nor Goode are realistic long term possible England 10's surely.
This suggests that beyond Flood Burns and Farrell, plus Hodgson as crisis cover, Lancaster doesnt see anyone else as worth wasting time on currently.

Basically I think that's right. Monye is in as cover for Burns I assume and going back to last year Lancs only picked 2 FHs in the summer EPS. Ford is clearly the next to step in but it's agreed he's not ready yet.

Heathcote probably bolted too early but he saw four or five FHs ahead of him and clearly didn't feel confident enough in ousting any of them. It would be interesting to see Eastmond play at FH, not that I necessarily think that's the best position for him. It looks like he's covering that in the Saxons though. The next young cab off the rank would probably be Tommy Bell but I haven't seen anything particularly spectacular from him as yet.

On the Clegg front the best move for him in my opinion would be to go to Northampton. I could see him developing well there with the help of Alex King and a decent pack. He could be a quality player but needs a run and to establish come confidence.

They can offer matchday emergency replacement cover, but neither 36 nor Goode are realistic long term possible England 10's surely.
This suggests that beyond Flood Burns and Farrell, plus Hodgson as crisis cover, Lancaster doesnt see anyone else as worth wasting time on currently..

And i totally agree...name a FH outside of that group that you would have in...Ford? Not getting much gametime. Clegg...similar....MIller considered a FB now. Joel Hodgson...playing in the championship and still has much to learn...far from ready. Lamb & Myler...probably not...i still believe Lamb should have been a SH not a FH.
I would say Farrell is 1st Choice...and probably Burns edging Flood.

Hope to see Burns come through the leg knock as I agree he looks like he'd be ousting Flood from the XXIII

GeordieFalcon wrote:

They can offer matchday emergency replacement cover, but neither 36 nor Goode are realistic long term possible England 10's surely.
This suggests that beyond Flood Burns and Farrell, plus Hodgson as crisis cover, Lancaster doesnt see anyone else as worth wasting time on currently..

And i totally agree...name a FH outside of that group that you would have in...Ford? Not getting much gametime. Clegg...similar....MIller considered a FB now. Joel Hodgson...playing in the championship and still has much to learn...far from ready. Lamb & Myler...probably not...i still believe Lamb should have been a SH not a FH.
I would say Farrell is 1st Choice...and probably Burns edging Flood.

He's just waiting for Botica's EQP to come through.... ;-)

I know he's been injured, and he may well have legitimately fallen behind Balmain, but the England coaches obviously rate him and I see he's being linked with Bath (as is Micky Young, in addition to George Ford). Just looks like one of those moves which hasn't worked out.

That might change Dave. With Castro possibly going to Toulon Brookes may see himself promoted to third choice with Cole guarenteed to be with England for a third of the season and likely to miss the start of next season due to the Lions enforced rest period. Straight shoot out for the backup TH spot with a younger prop and lots of game time on offer.

Chjw131 wrote:
On the Clegg front the best move for him in my opinion would be to go to Northampton. I could see him developing well there with the help of Alex King and a decent pack. He could be a quality player but needs a run and to establish come confidence.

+1 on that. I think that could be a great move for the Saints and England. People only think Clegg has missed the boat because he caused big noise when he was very young. He's only 22/23 now so easily has enough time to mature into a decent playmaker. Since seeing him in the age groups I've always felt the guy was a special talent just due to his passing let alone a decent kicking game and being quite physical for a 10.

Clegg wouldn't be a good fit for Saints they need a reliable goal kicker first. Then again if they can find a 9, 12 or 15 that could lick reliably he could o a job as a playmaker.

formerly known as Sam wrote:Clegg wouldn't be a good fit for Saints they need a reliable goal kicker first. Then again if they can find a 9, 12 or 15 that could lick reliably he could o a job as a playmaker.

Clegg has everything it takes to be a top notch kicker (and to be fair is still consistently hitting match- winning kicks when it really counts), but he' got an extended bout of the yips. Alex King ought to be able to sort him out, though.

BIG SHOCK!

Robshaw has been retained as England captain for the 6N's.

Is everyone pleased with this? Or could it have been worth while trying out some different options/combos?

Poorfour wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:Clegg wouldn't be a good fit for Saints they need a reliable goal kicker first. Then again if they can find a 9, 12 or 15 that could lick reliably he could o a job as a playmaker.

Clegg has everything it takes to be a top notch kicker (and to be fair is still consistently hitting match- winning kicks when it really counts), but he' got an extended bout of the yips. Alex King ought to be able to sort him out, though.

Exactly, the kicking issue is majorly OTT, apparently he's kicked well at Leeds now as well.

His passing game would be perfect for the Saints gameplan as its just like a better version of Lambs currently. Saints like to keep the ball very tight and then quickly spread it to the wings and Clegg would do that easily.

yappysnap wrote:BIG SHOCK!

Robshaw has been retained as England captain for the 6N's.

Is everyone pleased with this? Or could it have been worth while trying out some different options/combos?

Big shock indeed!

I'm happy with him retaining the captaincy, for sure. He leads by example and by the way he plays, which I like. Sure, he needs to improve his decision making, but I think he's the right choice.

I wouldn't mind him being rested for one 6N game possibly and have Wood captain, and trying out another backrow combo.

You don't rest and try out players in the 6 nations. The first ai, the barbarians game and the summer tour exist for that.