Keeping the Wheels on - AKA England's next EPS

First topic message reminder :

After a remarkable finish to the Autumn series Stuart Lancaster and his coaches next mission will be the new years EPS. Chosen in January it will not be open for change until Sep that year (except swaps for injuries) so he'll need to plan well and pick not only on current form but prior experience and future potential.

In the final game of the AI's the starting team that day showed the route that England rugby needs to take on the pitch; hard and aggressive up front with the pack sharing the duties of fetching, carrying and rucking amongst a core group of multi skilled players rather then selecting various specialists for one or two specific roles. In the backs we say a few glimpses of the Catt/Farrel/Lancaster triumvirate in action with Youngs getting some quick ball and kicking well, and the 10 drawing his centres up to the line at pace and actually giving Tuilagi good ball to use. The left wing and full back then create momentum from the back by beating their first man when countering and staying tall in the tackle to wait for support.

Of course there were players who failed to cover themselves in glory like wise others who were never deemed good enough to get a chance or who were only in because of multiple injuries. These I expect to see fall by the road side next year.

The current England Elite Player Squad

Forwards (17)
Props
Alex Corbisiero (London Irish), Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers), Joe Marler (Harlequins), David Wilson (Bath Rugby), Mako Vunipola (Saracens)
Hookers
Dylan Hartley (Northampton Saints), Rob Webber (Bath Rugby) Tom Youngs (Leicester Tigers), David Paice (London Irish)
Locks
Mouritz Botha (Saracens), Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints), Tom Palmer (London Wasps), Geoff Parling (Leicester Tigers) Joe Launchberry (London Wasps)
Flankers
Tom Croft (Leicester Tigers), Phil Dowson (Northampton Saints), Tom Johnson (Exeter Chiefs), Chris Robshaw (Harlequins), Tom Wood (Northampton Saints) James Haskell (London Wasps)
No 8's
Ben Morgan (Gloucester Rugby), Thomas Waldrom (Leicester Tigers)


Backs (15)
Scrum Halfs
Lee Dickson (Northampton Saints), Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers), Danny Care (Harlequins)
Fly Halfs
Owen Farrell (Saracens), Toby Flood (Leicester Tigers), Freddie Burns (Gloucester Rugby)
Centers
Anthony Allan (Leicester Tigers), Brad Barritt (Saracens), Manusamoa Tuilagi (Leicester Tigers), Jordan Turner-Hall (Harlequins), Johnathen Joseph (London Irish) Billy Twelvetrees (Gloucester Rugby)
Wings
Chris Ashton (Northampton Saints), Charlie Sharples (Gloucester Rugby), (Ugo Monye (Harlequins))
Fullbacks
Mike Brown (Harlequins), Ben Foden (Northampton Saints), Alex Goode (Saracens)

Players in italics were the latest changes allowed through injury or retirement (potentially the most likely to lose their spots again).

So to me the bulk of that 32 man squad looks about right, there are still quite a few players that are potentially a little worried about their places now:

Mako Vunipola (only came in for an injured Corbs but didn't look too comfy at times)
Rob Webber (Youngs looked a lot better and Hartley is still first choice)
David Paice (only came in for an injured Webber, didn't play better then Youngs or Hartley)
Mauritz Botha (just not an international lock, shown up completely by Launchberry)
Tom Palmer (anonymous around the park and not good enough at lineout time)
Courtney Lawes (injured a lot, is he big enough to partner Parling or athletic enough to partner Launchberry)
Tom Johnson (just doesn't play the style that England seem to need)
Tom Croft (injured and does his style fit England)
Phil Dowson (over 30 and can't make the match day 23)
James Haskell (Only came in for injuries, not sure if he did enough to stay)
Thomas Waldrom (pushed out of the starting lineup and hardly likely to make the bench)
Lee Dickson (can't make the match day 23)
Anthony Allan (can not make the 23, average club player)
Brad Barritt (bar one game looked out of his depth, potentially a new Noone)
Jordan Turner Hall (Like Barritt but less pace and no real vision, injured at a bad time)
Chris Ashton (A media darling but lazy in defence and pretty anonymous in most games, riding on rep at the moment)
Ugo Monye (only called up for injuries, didn't do enough)
Charlie Sharples (poor defence let him down)
Ben Foden (unlucky with an injury and now has two critical players in front of him)

Now I don't think all of these players will go, but there are a few who are near certainties.

Yappysnap's Elite Player Squad
Forwards (17)
Props
Alex Corbisiero (London Irish), Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers), Joe Marler (Harlequins), David Wilson (Bath Rugby), Nick Wood (Gloucester Rugby)
Hookers
Dylan Hartley (Northampton Saints), Tom Youngs (Leicester Tigers)
Locks
Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints), Geoff Parling (Leicester Tigers), Joe Launchberry (London Wasps), David Attwood (Bath Rugby)
Flankers
Tom Croft (Leicester Tigers), Chris Robshaw (Harlequins), Tom Wood (Northampton Saints), James Haskell (London Wasps)
No 8's
Ben Morgan (Gloucester Rugby), Billy Vunipola (London Wasps)

Backs (15)
Scrum Halfs
Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers), Danny Care (Harlequins)
Fly Halfs
Owen Farrell (Saracens), Toby Flood (Leicester Tigers), Freddie Burns (Gloucester Rugby)
Centers
Brad Barritt (Saracens), Manusamoa Tuilagi (Leicester Tigers), George Lowe (Harlequins), Billy Twelvetrees (Gloucester Rugby), Kyle Eastmond (Bath)
Wings
Chris Ashton (Northampton Saints),Christian Wade (Wasps)
Fullbacks
Mike Brown (Harlequins), Ben Foden (Northampton Saints), Alex Goode (Saracens)

The changes are
David Wilson did enough to get in to the EPS permanently
Nick Wood comes in to replace Vunipola as a trial
Tom Youngs replaces Webber as very real competition for Hartley
Dave Attwood comes in for Palmer to add some bulk and physicality if needed
James Haskell takes Johnsons place as he adds a bit more physicality and covers the back three
Billy Vunipola is trialled in Waldroms place to see his carrying game
Freddue Burns gets a permanent spot for Hodgeson
George Lowe, Billy Twelvetrees and Kyle Eastmond all come in to the squad to trial different attributes in the centres as well as cover the wings if needed.
Christian Wade comes in on the wing

Don't rule out the possibility of reuniting Launchbury with his U20s partner-in-crime Charlie Matthews in a year or so, too. Another in the new breed, and on Lancaster's radar

Absolutely Poorfour...

Lancs has already named him aswell hasnt he.

Kitchener, Matthews, Kruis, Launchbury.....

The future's bright, the future's white ;-)

Poorfour wrote:The future's bright, the future's white ;-)

DEFINITELY not regal purple!

bluestonevedder wrote:

Poorfour wrote:The future's bright, the future's white ;-)

DEFINITELY not regal purple!

Nooooooooooooooooooooo Bluestone! nooooooooooooooooooooo! My Mrs has picked me up the Regal Purple top for Chrimbo! Vive le Regal Purple! You'll be changing your tune when we rinse eveyone in regal purply goodness!

I see Kruis is listed in the ESP lions team of the week....at 6.

That's because they're all a little crazy Geordie.

Still not that sold on Matthews at the moment, yes he looks solid but i'd say Kruise looks to be ahead of him.

AlastairW wrote:

bluestonevedder wrote:

Poorfour wrote:The future's bright, the future's white ;-)

DEFINITELY not regal purple!

Nooooooooooooooooooooo Bluestone! nooooooooooooooooooooo! My Mrs has picked me up the Regal Purple top for Chrimbo! Vive le Regal Purple! You'll be changing your tune when we rinse eveyone in regal purply goodness!

Haha, sorry mate. Speaking out of opinion only of course. I actually heard that it was a HUGE seller this autumn, so lots of people did like it!

bluestonevedder wrote:

AlastairW wrote:

bluestonevedder wrote:

Poorfour wrote:The future's bright, the future's white ;-)

DEFINITELY not regal purple!

Nooooooooooooooooooooo Bluestone! nooooooooooooooooooooo! My Mrs has picked me up the Regal Purple top for Chrimbo! Vive le Regal Purple! You'll be changing your tune when we rinse eveyone in regal purply goodness!

Haha, sorry mate. Speaking out of opinion only of course. I actually heard that it was a HUGE seller this autumn, so lots of people did like it!

... Now all we need to do is not get tonked whilst wearing it! Hopefully won't be waiting that long

I think i'm in a minority of one, i really like the purple kit! Going to take myself outside and give myself a good talking to!

Effervescing Elephant wrote:I think i'm in a minority of one, i really like the purple kit! Going to take myself outside and give myself a good talking to!

I did that not too long ago, we both came to a perfectly amicable agreement eventually.

Effervescing Elephant wrote:I think i'm in a minority of one, i really like the purple kit! Going to take myself outside and give myself a good talking to!

Sorry EE, I was purely speaking from personal perspective. Of course it's perfectly acce[table to like it!

The only bad away kit in recent times was that charcoal patches one.

Oh and the Eng 7's fiery orange Poopie!

yappysnap wrote:That's because they're all a little crazy Geordie.

Still not that sold on Matthews at the moment, yes he looks solid but i'd say Kruise looks to be ahead of him.

Right now I'd agree with you, but Matthews seems to be improving fast, and is known to be complementary to Launchbury. It'll take something to get ahead of Parling in the short term, but by 2013-14

You may be right there, but he needs to displace Robson first which will me a massive ask. I wouldn't expect George to be out of the side until after the 2015 WC, unless Matthews going to bulk up a lot more and replace Kohn.

It's interesting the number of locks coming through that seem just as or only marginally less happy at blindside as in the 2nd row, Launchbury, Lawes, Savage, Slater, Garvey, Kruis & Craig (not mentioned so far I think because although putting in some very good performances last season he's been injured all of this). As long as the core lock attributes are still at the forefront I like what these sort of players can bring elsewhere around the park.

It is true to some extent that Sir Clive left the team when for various reasons the team got old together like AB`s 1991 and 1998.
Not strictly true a lot of the players are just club strength for all his faults "Sqeeky the Teflon Kid " developed a good A side and Academy for thathe should be praised.
Rob Andrew is no longer involved with the test side nowbut he did lay foundations.

To be fair to Clive, if Stuart Abbott had stayed fit he would have been a more than able replacement for Greenwood, likewise worsley and moody in the backrow coming in for Hill and Back.
Sadly injuries didn't help matters.

There seems to be so many young players being pushed for the senior eps...who maybe in the past would have went in to the Saxons...this leaves the question...

So who'd you have in the Saxons?

Injury cover?

Bathman_in_London wrote:To be fair to Clive, if Stuart Abbott had stayed fit he would have been a more than able replacement for Greenwood, likewise worsley and moody in the backrow coming in for Hill and Back.
Sadly injuries didn't help matters.

Also Woodman retired due to injury soon after. Wilko of course was injured from 03-07. Cohen and Balshaw also lost form worryingly quickly. Robinson retired earlier than expected from Internationals but did make a comeback. All in all the coaches from 03-07 may not have helped themselves in some cases but luck wasn't with them in many cases either.

On the current squad I'd go for.

LH - Corbisiero, Marler
Hooker - Hartley, Youngs
TH - Cole, Wilson
Lock - Parling, Launchberry, Lawes, Palmer - Palmer only just hangs onto his place with Garvey,Attwood and Kitchener banging on the door
Blindside - Wood, Croft, Haskell
Openside - Robshaw
No 8 - Morgan, Vunipola

SH - Youngs, Care, Dickson
FH - Flood, Burns, Farrell
IC - Barritt, Twelvetrees
OC - Tuilagi, Joseph
Wing - Ashton, Foden, JSD - I know people will criticise picking JSD but he is still electric in attack and much better in defence than Wade,Shaples or even Ashton
FB - Goode, Brown

When you add in Sheridan/Mulipola, Kitchener/Garvey, Johnson, Waldrom, Allen and Sharples/Wade as cover the only place we're really struggling for cover is tighthead and hooker, as with Webber injured there isn't a huge amount after Hartley and Youngs in case of injury. With Wood capable of playing 7 well Robshaw being the only specialist openside in the squad isn't as much of an issue. As a side note I'd still very happily see Sheridan in the squad as back up to Corbisiero as I still think he's better in the scrum than Marler or Mako.

At Hooker, Grey, or Lindsay

At tighthead, it's going to be a couple of seasons before we see much depth

Personally I'd put Grey and Lindsay in the same bracket at Doran-Jones and Nathan Catt in that they're very talented but still raw. To be fair Tom Youngs proved in the autumn how quickly you can change peoples perspectives with a good performance!

At the moment I'd say Dan Cole's our best player though so it shouldn't really be a surprise to me that he's the player I'd be the most worried about trying to replace him in case of injury.

Lindsay's throwing is the worst of all the potential hookers! He is a big unit at least though but well off Int standards. Grey is the opposite so potentially too small? Hopefully Hartley, Youngs and Webber will be more then enough.

In a few seasons time we'll have Synckler and Marfo to cover Dan Cole and then we should (fingers crossed) have strength in depth everywhere.

Is Vickery still playing?

Gray is over 16 stone, so not tiny even by international standards - but he's tall for a hooker (6'2" IIRC), which makes him look a bit skinny. I'd like to see him get a shot as he's been consistently good for Quins, especially throwing. He may eventually be overtaken by Buchanan, though, who looks more like an international hooker.

Purely on form Charlie Hodgson should be Englands fly half. Steve Borthwick wouldnt be a bad shout either, he'd certainly help out Englands line out.
Nick Easter has been the best 8 in the Jeff this year. Matt Stevens and Sheridan have both been showing their class too recently.

Pity for them we dont need a 50 cap cavalry.

What about Tom Varndell? What has he got to do? 10 premiership tries to Asthons 3, he has scored as many as last years Pfremiership top try scorer and more this season that the 2nd and third place scorers combined?

[quote="Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler"]Purely on form Charlie Hodgson should be Englands fly half. Steve Borthwick wouldnt be a bad shout either, he'd certainly help out Englands line out.
Nick Easter has been the best 8 in the Jeff this year. Matt Stevens and Sheridan have both been showing their class too recently.

Pity for them we dont need a 50 cap cavalry.[/quote]

Borthwick????? WIth Parling and Launchbury? Why not roll out Bill Beaumont as well. Did you see the second row stats in the AI's? Borthwick was poor 5 years ago - we need to move on.

On Hodgson he's always been a really good Prem fly-half and if he'd played in a better side than the England one he had his first few chances in would've done very well IMO. I thought his retirement came at a good time for himself, his club and England though realistically - which isn't something you can say for many players these days so he deserve praise for it!

With Flood as the experienced FH in the squad, Farrell/Burns offering different options but lots of talent and the likes of Ford coming up 10, hopefully wont be a problem in the future. It's a shame Rory Clegg hasn't kicked on because he was once a great prospect. The potential in his passing game was phenomenal at one point.

I'd very happily see Sheridan back in the squad though. Whilst I agreed with Lancaster dropping many older player excluding them for the sake of it when they offer a good option is unnecessary. We need to build for the next RWC yes but we've also got a 6N coming up we want to win. Also winning games is the best way for the young players to gain confidence and the team to build momentum. Pick the best side for the job!

Stevens...even in the dire TH back up spot we're in...NO THANKS

As for Sheridan...never rated him when he was in the England team and wouldnt want him back. Wood should have been englands LH over him every day of the week.

ANd with Corbs and Marler (yes still a work in progress) and Vunipola coming through no need for him.

Borthwick, is a classy lineout operator but doesnt offer much else...which i think you need at international level now. Parlng seems to have a little more and did very well in the lineout in the AI's.
Need some of the other young pretenders like kitchener really putting their hand up.

Im not doubting experience...but only when that experience is worthy of the spot...likewise youngsters should only come in IF they are better...

Stevens, Sheridan, Borthwick and Hodgeson have all proven they're quality club players but all have failed to bring it to International level. The youngsters that we have now contribute far more at the top levels and still have a lot more to give.

Depending upon what happens with the Lions I think it could be very worthwhile getting Sheridan involved again. Our tour to Argentina is pretty much concurrent with the Lions tour and our prop resources could be much stretched. Dan Cole will (in my opinion) definitely be picked by the Lions and Corbisiero has a good chance of making the touring squad too.

This leaves Mako Vunipola (4 Caps), Joe Marler (5 Caps), David Wilson (22 Caps) and Paul Doran-Jones (4 Caps). It isn’t a terrible selection of players to choose from, but some of them are still pretty raw and/ or untested. You can guarantee that they will be given a tough and hostile examination in Argentina and if they lose it up front, they are likely to lose the tests. Sheridan could add a little extra experience and power to the touring party.

The others would be a step back in my opinion.

It will be very interesting to see who tours in the summer to Argentina...

1) I cant see a huge number of Englishmen going to Oz with the lions...so i think we could have the options of almost a full strength squad.

2) But then the other question do you take the full strength squad or do we use it as a development giving your seniors a grerat opportunity of a summers rest...which most wont have had for a while....

PS Im not taking Argentina lightly...just think this is a great opportunity to try out some of the fringe players / young pretenders...such as Tight Head and the array of second rowers coming through like Kruis, Kitchener etc..cenres like Joseph, Daly etc whilst Tuilagi is away.

Players I think will definitely tour with the Lions:

Dan Cole
Manu Tuilagi
Ben Youngs/ Danny Care

Decent chance of touring:

Alex Corbisiero
Dylan Hartley/ Tom Youngs
Geoff Parling
Chris Robshaw
Tom Wood/ Tom Croft
Ben Foden/ Alex Goode/ Mike Brown
Chris Ashton

Outside Chance:

Joe Launchbury (They always take a bolter and I just have a feeling that it might be him)
Courtney Lawes (Becomes a lot more of an option if he has a good Six Nations)
Ben Morgan
Owen Farrell
Brad Barritt

I suppose this is why these threads are difficult to comment on, I can see anywhere from three to ten first teamers being in OZ. In some positions we have ready made cover like:

Manu Tuilagi------> Jon Joseph
Ben Youngs------> Danny Care (Or vice versa)


But in other positions this isn't so. I reckon as you say there will be a fair bit of experimentation.

Interesting list marra, and your probably spot on. A good 6n and i Launchbury will be there aswell ...he looks the real deal to me.

Interesting Joseph as Tuilagis replacement...seems Lancs has him as that...but young Daly at wasps is one hell of a prospect...and a kicker aswell i believe.

We badly need a TH to come through.

Be interesting to watch and only a couple of months to the 6n...

TH is our biggest problem for the summer and going forward. Cole is up there with the best in the world but if he's injured (or with the lions in summer) our team gets a hell of a lot worse immediately. We lose a lot from our two main strengths; the scrum and forward work in the tight exchanges.

Apparently Burns is definitely going to be in the EPS when it's changed next week. Will we have three fly halves in the 32 man squad or will Flood drop to the Saxons until he can show that he can play consistently without picking up injuries?

From what I heard Burns is going to come in as a replacement for Jordan Turner-Hall rather than Flood. Apparently the thinking is that Farrell and Joseph can cover the centre positions. It suggest Billy 36 will be in the Saxons too.

36 only in the Saxons? I was kind of hoping that he'd be in the EPS too.

And if Flood gets done for the apparent spear tackle yesterday, you think Twelvetrees would come in for Flood?

Yeah I reckon so, but I'm not an oracle, I am just relaying some of the things I've read around the internet. I could be entirely wrong.

On a side note, how long do players normally get for a spear tackle? I can't imagine Flood will be banned for all that long, he's a pretty clean player and I can't think of any previous. So what, a couple of weeks maybe?

Turner-Hall and Dowson are the two guys I'd say don't really add too much too the EPS at the moment.

Twelvetrees remaining in the Saxons would be disappointing but Barritt/Allen are both quality players. Whilst Barritt is exceptional in defense I think Allen could get the most out of Tuilagi in attack and 36 could actually bring the wingers into play with his passing game.

Not sure the suspension time for spear/tip tackles. I know players have gotten in the 4+ weeks recently. But the Flood tackle was not so bad (in my opinion), and combined with a pretty clean record, probably at the low end of whatever the time period would be. Besides how can anyone suspend a person named Toby?

Agreed KC, Dowson and Turner-Hall should be going as I really just don't see them as Int quality players. Add to that Botha, Palmer, Johnson, Dickson and Allan.

Cumbrian I'd imagine that he'll get 3-4 weeks once they've taken his clean record and good Christian family man character in to it. Which in itself isn't too much time away, but he still hasn't actually hit any form yet since the AI's and will be missing key Euro games which would have been his chance to prove that he is still the first choice for England.

yappysnap

I'd agree on Dowson, JTH and Botha.

Palmer I'd argue simply because with Croft unlikely to make the 6N Parling would be the only guy in the squad who could run the line-out really well. For that reason I'd want either Deacon or Palmer still in the squad in case Parling gets injured to add some line-out nous and experience.

Johnson I'd keep in the squad with Croft unlikely to make it. I accept Johnson isn't in the class of Wood/Croft but he's still a very good player who offers a like for like replacement should Wood be injured. I can't realistically see another guy who offers what Johnson does at a consistent rate in the Jeff - he's had a lot of unwarranted criticism since the AI's IMO.

Allen may make way for 36. Out of Barritt, Allen and 36 I'd say Allen is the best all round IC we have though. Barritt is exceptional defensively but offers very little in attack (those skills also wont adapt at Saracens), whilst Twelvetrees has a great passing game and kicking game but Allen is now very good in defence plus shows week in week out he knows how to get the best out of Tuilagi.

doctor_grey wrote: Besides how can anyone suspend a person named Toby?

...or Tobias Geriant Albert Lieven more to the point

ARE YOU KIDDING ME?
Cripe, put him in a convent, or something.

King_Carlos, all very good points and I think you're probably totally right about the need for Palmer and Johnson now that I think about it!

One point about Twelvetrees though, he is at the moment one of the top tacklers in the league and I believe has won more turn overs then anyone else as well. Add to that his accurate howitzer of a boot, the ability to kick at goal, experience playing at 13 or 10 and 3 seasons playing along side Manu for Tigers before he left and I'd say that anything Allan can do 36 can do better.

yappysnap

I knew 36's groundwork had always been strong but didn't realise he'd had that effect at Gloucs with turnovers! Very impressive, it's important to remember he didn't play a massive number of games with Tuilagi due to Allen's presence but no doubt the experience they had playing together would help. As said I'd be very happy to see him in the squad instead of Allen, I was more alluding to the fact that if JTH keeps his place over either of them...

Glad you mentioned his kicking as his ridiculously big boot would be a huge asset to England IMO. Alongside some poor forward running (Robshaw standing still mainly) in the AI's the one thing that consistently annoyed me was some useless kicking, usually an up and under going way to long, from all 4 half-backs used and Goode at FB. That's something Twelvetrees' kicking could help alleviate as it would take pressure of the usual kickers.

Add to that Goode's usually decent kicking or Brown's big left boot at FB and hopefully we'd see less aimless kicking all round.