Keeping the Wheels on - AKA England's next EPS

First topic message reminder :

After a remarkable finish to the Autumn series Stuart Lancaster and his coaches next mission will be the new years EPS. Chosen in January it will not be open for change until Sep that year (except swaps for injuries) so he'll need to plan well and pick not only on current form but prior experience and future potential.

In the final game of the AI's the starting team that day showed the route that England rugby needs to take on the pitch; hard and aggressive up front with the pack sharing the duties of fetching, carrying and rucking amongst a core group of multi skilled players rather then selecting various specialists for one or two specific roles. In the backs we say a few glimpses of the Catt/Farrel/Lancaster triumvirate in action with Youngs getting some quick ball and kicking well, and the 10 drawing his centres up to the line at pace and actually giving Tuilagi good ball to use. The left wing and full back then create momentum from the back by beating their first man when countering and staying tall in the tackle to wait for support.

Of course there were players who failed to cover themselves in glory like wise others who were never deemed good enough to get a chance or who were only in because of multiple injuries. These I expect to see fall by the road side next year.

The current England Elite Player Squad

Forwards (17)
Props
Alex Corbisiero (London Irish), Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers), Joe Marler (Harlequins), David Wilson (Bath Rugby), Mako Vunipola (Saracens)
Hookers
Dylan Hartley (Northampton Saints), Rob Webber (Bath Rugby) Tom Youngs (Leicester Tigers), David Paice (London Irish)
Locks
Mouritz Botha (Saracens), Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints), Tom Palmer (London Wasps), Geoff Parling (Leicester Tigers) Joe Launchberry (London Wasps)
Flankers
Tom Croft (Leicester Tigers), Phil Dowson (Northampton Saints), Tom Johnson (Exeter Chiefs), Chris Robshaw (Harlequins), Tom Wood (Northampton Saints) James Haskell (London Wasps)
No 8's
Ben Morgan (Gloucester Rugby), Thomas Waldrom (Leicester Tigers)


Backs (15)
Scrum Halfs
Lee Dickson (Northampton Saints), Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers), Danny Care (Harlequins)
Fly Halfs
Owen Farrell (Saracens), Toby Flood (Leicester Tigers), Freddie Burns (Gloucester Rugby)
Centers
Anthony Allan (Leicester Tigers), Brad Barritt (Saracens), Manusamoa Tuilagi (Leicester Tigers), Jordan Turner-Hall (Harlequins), Johnathen Joseph (London Irish) Billy Twelvetrees (Gloucester Rugby)
Wings
Chris Ashton (Northampton Saints), Charlie Sharples (Gloucester Rugby), (Ugo Monye (Harlequins))
Fullbacks
Mike Brown (Harlequins), Ben Foden (Northampton Saints), Alex Goode (Saracens)

Players in italics were the latest changes allowed through injury or retirement (potentially the most likely to lose their spots again).

So to me the bulk of that 32 man squad looks about right, there are still quite a few players that are potentially a little worried about their places now:

Mako Vunipola (only came in for an injured Corbs but didn't look too comfy at times)
Rob Webber (Youngs looked a lot better and Hartley is still first choice)
David Paice (only came in for an injured Webber, didn't play better then Youngs or Hartley)
Mauritz Botha (just not an international lock, shown up completely by Launchberry)
Tom Palmer (anonymous around the park and not good enough at lineout time)
Courtney Lawes (injured a lot, is he big enough to partner Parling or athletic enough to partner Launchberry)
Tom Johnson (just doesn't play the style that England seem to need)
Tom Croft (injured and does his style fit England)
Phil Dowson (over 30 and can't make the match day 23)
James Haskell (Only came in for injuries, not sure if he did enough to stay)
Thomas Waldrom (pushed out of the starting lineup and hardly likely to make the bench)
Lee Dickson (can't make the match day 23)
Anthony Allan (can not make the 23, average club player)
Brad Barritt (bar one game looked out of his depth, potentially a new Noone)
Jordan Turner Hall (Like Barritt but less pace and no real vision, injured at a bad time)
Chris Ashton (A media darling but lazy in defence and pretty anonymous in most games, riding on rep at the moment)
Ugo Monye (only called up for injuries, didn't do enough)
Charlie Sharples (poor defence let him down)
Ben Foden (unlucky with an injury and now has two critical players in front of him)

Now I don't think all of these players will go, but there are a few who are near certainties.

Yappysnap's Elite Player Squad
Forwards (17)
Props
Alex Corbisiero (London Irish), Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers), Joe Marler (Harlequins), David Wilson (Bath Rugby), Nick Wood (Gloucester Rugby)
Hookers
Dylan Hartley (Northampton Saints), Tom Youngs (Leicester Tigers)
Locks
Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints), Geoff Parling (Leicester Tigers), Joe Launchberry (London Wasps), David Attwood (Bath Rugby)
Flankers
Tom Croft (Leicester Tigers), Chris Robshaw (Harlequins), Tom Wood (Northampton Saints), James Haskell (London Wasps)
No 8's
Ben Morgan (Gloucester Rugby), Billy Vunipola (London Wasps)

Backs (15)
Scrum Halfs
Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers), Danny Care (Harlequins)
Fly Halfs
Owen Farrell (Saracens), Toby Flood (Leicester Tigers), Freddie Burns (Gloucester Rugby)
Centers
Brad Barritt (Saracens), Manusamoa Tuilagi (Leicester Tigers), George Lowe (Harlequins), Billy Twelvetrees (Gloucester Rugby), Kyle Eastmond (Bath)
Wings
Chris Ashton (Northampton Saints),Christian Wade (Wasps)
Fullbacks
Mike Brown (Harlequins), Ben Foden (Northampton Saints), Alex Goode (Saracens)

The changes are
David Wilson did enough to get in to the EPS permanently
Nick Wood comes in to replace Vunipola as a trial
Tom Youngs replaces Webber as very real competition for Hartley
Dave Attwood comes in for Palmer to add some bulk and physicality if needed
James Haskell takes Johnsons place as he adds a bit more physicality and covers the back three
Billy Vunipola is trialled in Waldroms place to see his carrying game
Freddue Burns gets a permanent spot for Hodgeson
George Lowe, Billy Twelvetrees and Kyle Eastmond all come in to the squad to trial different attributes in the centres as well as cover the wings if needed.
Christian Wade comes in on the wing

With England showing there's more depth of talent in many positions than for a long time I think SL will continue testing new squad members with a view to having a wide base of players who have experience of the EPS and who can be called back in when the inevitable strings of injuries take their toll. I think he is trying to effectively create a potential 40+ player pool with some rotation through identifying emerging talent. If he is then this will go a long way towards perpetuating the any success we all pray will come.

This summer will force him to give the Saxons guys a chance against Argentina.
Its a pity hes scrapped the team though, never really understood that aside form him not wanting a coach sniping behind his back and bigging up players from that side to the media.

In terms of the squad he has two sets of 32 which make up his elite group. Thats a lot to work with, espedcially as injury rates havent been too bad for him so far.

VictorU3 wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:I hope Biggs doesn't come in. Time has gone for him when he was messing around with Leeds and Newcastle.

I'm sick of capping players when they approach 30 and would why we have a relatively old team for the number of caps they have. If they are hand and shoulders about everyone else then fair enough. But I'd stick with Ashton and Sharples. Bring in Wade for a chance. I'd probably stick with the other wing being a back up full back.

Wales have a younger team and much more experienced (I think). We need to take their example (but win games)

How can you say that about Biggs, he has been one of the most consistent wingers in the Aviva for the last two seasons, he deserves a chance.

Consistent at what? Biggs certainly doesn't score many tries.

2 in 10 games this season.

3 in 20 games - 2011-12 season

4 in 14+3 games - 2010-11

He makes chances for others too, it is a XV man game after all.

plus he has great hair.

Agree he does have great hair.

Not sure about his try assists stats. As you say maybe he's high up.

Of course stats don't tell you the whole story but it's just an interesting one.

VictorU3 wrote:He makes chances for others too, it is a XV man game after all.

plus he has great hair.

Right that's it, i feel a 'Great Hair XV' coming on... Danny Care first name on the team sheet!

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:This summer will force him to give the Saxons guys a chance against Argentina.
Its a pity hes scrapped the team though, never really understood that aside form him not wanting a coach sniping behind his back and bigging up players from that side to the media.

In terms of the squad he has two sets of 32 which make up his elite group. Thats a lot to work with, espedcially as injury rates havent been too bad for him so far.

The Churchill Cup was scrapped by the IRB so whats the point of keeping it for the two games in January that are meaningless? Might as well disband it and have the U20 as our next level (at least that'll stop the Scots nicking our players

Effervescing Elephant wrote:

VictorU3 wrote:He makes chances for others too, it is a XV man game after all.

plus he has great hair.

Right that's it, i feel a 'Great Hair XV' coming on... Danny Care first name on the team sheet!

Front row of Marler - Szarzewski ('Because I'm worth it' ) - Adam Jones

dummy_half wrote:

Effervescing Elephant wrote:

VictorU3 wrote:He makes chances for others too, it is a XV man game after all.

plus he has great hair.

Right that's it, i feel a 'Great Hair XV' coming on... Danny Care first name on the team sheet!

Front row of Marler - Szarzewski ('Because I'm worth it' ) - Adam Jones

Castro on the bench? Like it. Tavis Knoyle as back up SH?

beshocked wrote:Agree he does have great hair.

Not sure about his try assists stats. As you say maybe he's high up.

Of course stats don't tell you the whole story but it's just an interesting one.

His try assists are OK. For those that have been concerned about the defence of some of our wings though, Biggs wouldn't still the nerves, he's missed 1 in 4 tackles this season.

For me, if you want a player to score and create chances for other players, Wade has to be the next wing called up, just ask Varndell how many tries he's got off the back of him this season.

Biggs Wade
10 Matches 10
2 Tries 5
10 Points 25
2 Try assist 3
8 Kicks From Hand 12
5 Passes 37
38 Carries 65
296 Metres carried 726
5 Clean breaks 15
3 Offloads 10
10 Defenders beaten 30
24 Tackles 34
8 Missed tackles 6

I'd say Abendanon has been looking far more solid in defence and dangerous in attack then Biggs these last two seasons.

Wade must be in the squad next year, he might not play but hopefully just being in the environment will set him up nicely for the summer tour.

Any one got any stats for Jonny May from last season? He was another playing being touted in a lot of potential EPS sides before injury, does he compare well to Wade is he a wing of fb or 13?

As a FB May will struggle to get in the EPS...with the current three guys there...as a winger (who could cover FB) absolutely.

Wade must make the EPS....

A year or 2 ago Trinder was being heavily touted.

Yeah he was going to be in the squad if not the side for the 6Ns but got badly injured. thats why we ended up with Hodgson Farrell Barrit

Effervescing Elephant wrote:

VictorU3 wrote:He makes chances for others too, it is a XV man game after all.

plus he has great hair.

Right that's it, i feel a 'Great Hair XV' coming on... Danny Care first name on the team sheet!

Elephant, there already is one.
Selectors somehow overlooked Care, but he can be added to the squad.

https://www.606v2.com/t37942-hair-products-international-xv

Biggs Wade
10 Matches 10
2 Tries 5
10 Points 25
2 Try assist 3
8 Kicks From Hand 12
5 Passes 37
38 Carries 65
296 Metres carried 726
5 Clean breaks 15
3 Offloads 10
10 Defenders beaten 30
24 Tackles 34
8 Missed tackles 6[/quote]

Some pretty impressive work from Wade. Does anyone in the prem have better figures for clean breaks / defenders beaten? Looks like he can pass, kick and offload too.

It doesn't say what happened after the kicks/passes. They could be into touch, sliced, at players feet/over their head. But it does show he does just try and beat players or carry into contact. Wade does have pretty good leg strength from I've seen as well.

HammerofThunor wrote:It doesn't say what happened after the kicks/passes. They could be into touch, sliced, at players feet/over their head. But it does show he does just try and beat players or carry into contact. Wade does have pretty good leg strength from I've seen as well.

As someone mentioned above, from what I've seen of Wasps this season more than a few occasions after he passed Varndell ended up dotting down.

Agree about the leg strength, you'd expect him to go down when hit, but he often stays up well, pumps the legs and keeps going. Forms a nice target for his supporting forwards and driving maul.


Wi11, no, he tops the league in both, and only Abendanon has made more metres (that obviously usually topped by FBs because they run a lot of ball back from deep).

Just been discussing on another thread...Matt Kvesic was MOM and put in a great performance at 7 as Wuss beat Perpingon...

Any chances for the Seniors...or will he stay a Saxon. I see the latter...

I think Kvesic should be promoted to the EPS SQUAD in the New Year... he is the future 7 England have been looking for...

My EPS squad is as follows;

Props
Alex Corbisiero (London Irish), Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers), Joe Marler (Harlequins), David Wilson (Bath Rugby), Nick Wood ( Gloucester)

Hookers
Dylan Hartley (Northampton Saints), Rob Webber (Bath Rugby) Tom Youngs (Leicester Tigers)

Locks
Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints), Geoff Parling (Leicester Tigers) Joe Launchberry (London Wasps) Garvey ( London Irish )

Back Row;
Tom Croft (Leicester Tigers), Chris Robshaw (Harlequins), Tom Wood (Northampton Saints) James Haskell (London Wasps)
Ben Morgan (Gloucester Rugby) Matt Kvesic ( Worcester)

Scrum Half
Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers), Danny Care (Harlequins)

Fly Halfs
Owen Farrell (Saracens), Toby Flood (Leicester Tigers), Freddie Burns (Gloucester Rugby)

Centers Brad Barritt (Saracens), Manusamoa Tuilagi (Leicester Tigers), Johnathen Joseph (London Irish) Billy Twelvetrees (Gloucester Rugby)

Wings
Chris Ashton (Northampton Saints), Charlie Sharples(Gloucester Rugby),

Fullbacks
Mike Brown (Harlequins), Ben Foden (Northampton Saints), Alex Goode (Saracens)


Would also like to see Wade and Eastman give a chance in the Back 3 at some point next year...

Nice backrow choices pbuk0, like them a lot.

Thats a smart EPS pb...and id go with that and its probably not far off what Lancs will go with to be honest.

I agree Wade needs to be there somewhere...

The one position is SR..even though im a huge Garvey fan and he would be in my EPS i cant see Lancaster picking him...itll be another lineout guy.

bluestonevedder wrote:Nice backrow choices pbuk0, like them a lot.

thanks Bluestonevedder, although there is only one Specialist number 8, I think Haskell and Kvesic can provide cover there... At Openside Robshall is doing Ok and Kvesic should get experience for there for the future....

GeordieFalcon wrote:Thats a smart EPS pb...and id go with that and its probably not far off what Lancs will go with to be honest.

I agree Wade needs to be there somewhere...

The one position is SR..even though im a huge Garvey fan and he would be in my EPS i cant see Lancaster picking him...itll be another lineout guy.

You are probably right about Garvey.. I think Lancaster will probably go with Palmer although I would also pick Kitchener/ Attwood ahead of him...

The biggest problem for me was picking wingers as no one really is a stand out... Ashton has looked poor .. Sharples has yet to convince... no wonder Lancs is putting full backs on the wing..

Out of interest and because i'm too lazy to look it up how many changes can be made to the EPS in January?

pbuk0 wrote:I think Kvesic should be promoted to the EPS SQUAD in the New Year... he is the future 7 England have been looking for...

My EPS squad is as follows;

Props
Alex Corbisiero (London Irish), Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers), Joe Marler (Harlequins), David Wilson (Bath Rugby), Nick Wood ( Gloucester) I don't think it'll be Wood (even if he deserves it), I think Lancaster will pick Vunipola again

Hookers
Dylan Hartley (Northampton Saints), Rob Webber (Bath Rugby) Tom Youngs (Leicester Tigers)Possibly, I haven't seen much of Webber, might retain Paice

Locks
Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints), Geoff Parling (Leicester Tigers) Joe Launchberry (London Wasps) Garvey ( London Irish )As Geordie said it's probably going to be a lineout guy. I think it'll be Robson over Palmer, possibly Kitchener at a push

Back Row;
Tom Croft (Leicester Tigers), Chris Robshaw (Harlequins), Tom Wood (Northampton Saints) James Haskell (London Wasps)
Ben Morgan (Gloucester Rugby) Matt Kvesic ( Worcester)This is very possible and a good one.

Scrum Half
Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers), Danny Care (Harlequins)Of course, however don't we usually have 3 in the squad? If so it'll probably be L Dickson

Fly Halfs
Owen Farrell (Saracens), Toby Flood (Leicester Tigers), Freddie Burns (Gloucester Rugby)Yes, I think so

Centers Brad Barritt (Saracens), Manusamoa Tuilagi (Leicester Tigers), Johnathen Joseph (London Irish) Billy Twelvetrees (Gloucester Rugby)Highly likely

Wings
Chris Ashton (Northampton Saints), Charlie Sharples(Gloucester Rugby)Highly Likely

Fullbacks
Mike Brown (Harlequins), Ben Foden (Northampton Saints), Alex Goode (Saracens)Highly Likely

If we take L Dickson then I think Twelvetrees will be sacrified since Flood, Farrell or Goode could cover 12 (in theory).


Would also like to see Wade and Eastman give a chance in the Back 3 at some point next year...I think Wade will be the next winger in, either due to injuries or drop outs. Eastman, I haven't seen much but he seemed to do well in all the games I've seen. I think Lancaster will give him the rest of the season and maybe be involved in the Argentina tour.

Obviously I've responded with who I think Lancaster will pick and I know it was your choice. Certainly don't think there are any bad calls in there (except a backup lineout runner). And I would be fine if that was picked.

EDIT: Oh and Ashton is at Sarries now.

Any one else still massively unimpressed with Ashton this season? He seems to be playing a very different style of rugby to what he played at Saints with far less of tracking of the ball and a lot more physicality.

Not sure if it's the best use of his skills really though.

Wade is looking better and better in attack but his defence and under the high ball in particular is looking shocking. Perhaps though being in a backline with two full backs as SL has shown he seems to like would help to reduce the impact of this while letting us play him.

Lawes to me still looks massively off the pace, the problem is who else would any one pick, assuming we're starting with Parling/Launchberry would Attwood be a good bench option?

Could also see Croft, Foden and Hartley dropping to the Saxons the former due to injury and the latter to find form and as a bit of a warning about temperament.

yappysnap wrote:Any one else still massively unimpressed with Ashton this season? He seems to be playing a very different style of rugby to what he played at Saints with far less of tracking of the ball and a lot more physicality.

Not sure if it's the best use of his skills really though.

Wade is looking better and better in attack but his defence and under the high ball in particular is looking shocking. Perhaps though being in a backline with two full backs as SL has shown he seems to like would help to reduce the impact of this while letting us play him.

Lawes to me still looks massively off the pace, the problem is who else would any one pick, assuming we're starting with Parling/Launchberry would Attwood be a good bench option?

Agree about Ashton, but especially Lawes. I've barely noticed him on the pitch when he's been playing, which is a shame, because he used to have such a presence. I wouldn't mind seeing Attwood promoted to the EPS for 6 Nations, just to see how he goes. Otherwise, Garvey is still a viable option!

Yeah Garvey or Attwood would be good choices. I think either way they'd be useful impact subs to bring on, probably add a fair bit to the scrums too.

It's a bit of a worry about Ashton, he looked so promising but I just can't see the thought process behind his current tactical use now, and worryingly the same thing is being used when he plays for England as well.

Garvey should be in the EPS ....simple as that. But he isnt a lineout dominator...probably a reasonable option but never gonna worry the top intternational lineouts...but with Wood and say Parling thats ok..cause Garvey offers SO much more in the rest of his game.

I really want to see Lawes start and hit some form...

With Lancaster in charge they have a down to earth Coach who will keep there
feet on the ground.Everyone has there own ideas of there England team ?squad
many names were missing during the AI`s.
It is a fair bet many of those who played v the All Blacks would`nt have been in that team.
It`s also a fair bet than when the names become available fewer of that team will be picked.
On the strength of the AB`s game you would think ALL would start the next match.Also Thomas Waldron is a good solid back row forward as was his brother AllBlack Scott.The Pink Panthers played for Crusaders and Hurricanes at a good level without nailing down an AB starting place.
There were an awful lot of good/great Loose forwards in NZ to compete against including McCaw,Kaino,Read,thomson,Messam etc.

GeordieFalcon wrote:Garvey should be in the EPS ....simple as that. But he isnt a lineout dominator...probably a reasonable option but never gonna worry the top intternational lineouts...but with Wood and say Parling thats ok..cause Garvey offers SO much more in the rest of his game.

I really want to see Lawes start and hit some form...

Geordie we need to get some one to get Lancaster to do a Q&A for 606 so you can ask him about Garvey, as I get the sense you're losing sleep over it! (You're right though it is baffling why he was in the Saxons one minute and then gone the next, what I find more interesting is the total media blackout regarding him though, usually they like a good muse on players and why they're in/out).

emack2 wrote:With Lancaster in charge they have a down to earth Coach who will keep there
feet on the ground.Everyone has there own ideas of there England team ?squad
many names were missing during the AI`s.
It is a fair bet many of those who played v the All Blacks would`nt have been in that team.
It`s also a fair bet than when the names become available fewer of that team will be picked.
On the strength of the AB`s game you would think ALL would start the next match.Also Thomas Waldron is a good solid back row forward as was his brother AllBlack Scott.The Pink Panthers played for Crusaders and Hurricanes at a good level without nailing down an AB starting place.
There were an awful lot of good/great Loose forwards in NZ to compete against including McCaw,Kaino,Read,thomson,Messam etc.

You're right about Lancaster. But Tuilagi has shown that on top of solidity you need a game breaker or two.

Waldrom is a solid club player but no more, he'll do a job but won't ever be good enough to be more then a stop gap at international level. Haskell, Wood, Robshaw, Croft, Clark, Lawes, Morgan, Vunipola and Fearns are all better options in and around the EPS and Saxons.

I should have said re game changers that Wade at 14 would be my choice. My starting backline for Scotland would be:

9. Youngs
10. Farrel
11. Brown
12. Barritt
13. Tuilagi
14. Wade
15. Goode

yappysnap wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:Garvey should be in the EPS ....simple as that. But he isnt a lineout dominator...probably a reasonable option but never gonna worry the top intternational lineouts...but with Wood and say Parling thats ok..cause Garvey offers SO much more in the rest of his game.

I really want to see Lawes start and hit some form...

Geordie we need to get some one to get Lancaster to do a Q&A for 606 so you can ask him about Garvey, as I get the sense you're losing sleep over it! (You're right though it is baffling why he was in the Saxons one minute and then gone the next, what I find more interesting is the total media blackout regarding him though, usually they like a good muse on players and why they're in/out).

Ah it is something that baffles me...but dont worry im not losing sleep. As long as Lancaster recognises new talent like Launchbury and getting performances from the likes of Parling..who was a player i questioned being in the squad...then im happy.

BUt it is one of the mysterys of recent years of English rugby for me...because hes a big guy who consistantly puts in top class performances in the prem...especially at a time when Botha was a starter for us....

Ah yes Botha, you can probably thank a certain ex Saracens coach for his selection though...

Maybe Garvey will get a chance this summer, realistically we only have Parling, Lawes and Launchberry to choose from as current young locks and if he wants to stay away from the over 30's then it's either Garvey or Attwood.

Or maybe Savage from Gloucester? But I guess he's more likely a Saxon at most...

Well i think Launchbury and Parling have made those spots their own for the short term..maybe longterm...

Back up really is wide open.

Lawes - Frustratingly just doesnt look like he'll hit the potential we all see in him.
Palmer - His level of performances are beginning to drop
Savage - Probably a saxon but hes not a lineout guy either
Garvey - Will never be seen in a white shirt again
Attwood - See Lawes
Kitchener - The one i think will come up...lineout with a bit of grunt and skills...
Robson - Excellent club player...im just not convinced he would make the step up

Others - Slater, Matthews,...still coming through?

Who did i miss?

Parling, Launchbury, Kitchener, Lawes (we gotta get him firing)

GeordieFalcon wrote:Well i think Launchbury and Parling have made those spots their own for the short term..maybe longterm...

Back up really is wide open.

Lawes - Frustratingly just doesnt look like he'll hit the potential we all see in him.
Palmer - His level of performances are beginning to drop
Savage - Probably a saxon but hes not a lineout guy either
Garvey - Will never be seen in a white shirt again
Attwood - See Lawes
Kitchener - The one i think will come up...lineout with a bit of grunt and skills...
Robson - Excellent club player...im just not convinced he would make the step up

Others - Slater, Matthews,...still coming through?

Who did i miss?

Parling, Launchbury, Kitchener, Lawes (we gotta get him firing)

Lawes has been in and out due to injury since he hit the first team. He's had about a month back before the international. About hard to suggest he won't hit the potential. Especially since he's only 23 and (Garvey was about 23 before I read anyone suggest him for international duty)

EDIT: I think he needs to be given time at Saints to get back in form.

I agree he seems dogged by injury which is halting his progression Hammer...

Yea he is pretty injury prone, is it the same injury each time or different things?
That's a good list Geordie, there could also be Skivington, Day, Kruse, Gaskell or Croft at a push.

It amuses my to hear people talking about some depth of English players on here.England have more registered players,money,facilities etc.than any country in the World.
Yet often they go for overseas imports on residential or other criteria,Waldron is a solid number 8 no more.The Number 8 is primarly a TIGHT Forward,locking the Scrum.With the 9 controlling the base of the scrum,a lineout option at the rear.THEN as a link man it seems his primary role is forgotten Waldron does the graft and well in attack and defence.
Riki Fluety was considered a journeyman in NZ competing with the likes of Umaga,Conrad smith and Nonu for game time.So he came North BUT before injuries he was THE best England/Lions Centre about.
Even Stephen Jones who never has a good word to say for a NZ born player drooled over him in 2009 Lions tour.
You pays your money you gets your choice with all there resources England should be in IRB top 3 ALL the time not the odd 3 years,then 10 in the doldrums.

yappysnap wrote:Yea he is pretty injury prone, is it the same injury each time or different things?
That's a good list Geordie, there could also be Skivington, Day, Kruse, Gaskell or Croft at a push.

Yeah there are definately others...though id be looking beyond Skivington now...and Gaskell would be nowhere near my squad.
Croft is a back rower, im not sure about him at 4 / 5.

Kruse is the interesting one...he seems to be quietly coming along and getting good reviews. Maybe hes one to keep an eye on.

Emack

Yes we have a huge player base..but many of those arent actually realistic options as most are sunday league players who enjoy a run out on a weekend..myself included...but never gonna be top level. Im still a registered player but never likely to play for england.
As for the foreigners...most England fans cringe at these players coming over...especially when there are just as good or better England guys being ingored.

However this is a trend that i think is being pushed out by Lancs...

I also think there are other reasons for our position over the last ten years.

One of them is that Woodward was so single minded in winning the WC...that he made no plans for after it...ie how many youngsters had been readied to replace Back or Johnson or Greenwood etc...none...which meant when they all retired on mass...we had serious issues.

I also think as a nation....we just simply arent as a good a rugby team as we thought we were...expectations too high etc.

However things seem to be just starting to move in the right direction under Lancs...so we will see.

GeordieFalcon wrote:
One of them is that Woodward was so single minded in winning the WC...that he made no plans for after it...ie how many youngsters had been readied to replace Back or Johnson or Greenwood etc...none...which meant when they all retired on mass...we had serious issues.

Not entirely true. Woodward said that the RFU needed to reform in a number of ways to avoid a problem. The RFU fell out with him over it and he lost the job (can't remember if he quit or was sacked).

Maybe not entirely true and he did complain about lack of time with the players...but we were left in a whole when they all pretty much retired on mass...

Numbers don't equal talent anyway, if it all came down to the statistics then NZ would never have a hope.

But that's getting off topic.

I think Kruse is def one to watch, riding under the radar at the moment but could be in the Saxons soon and he is picking up the MoM's as he goes so far.

GeordieFalcon wrote:

yappysnap wrote:Yea he is pretty injury prone, is it the same injury each time or different things?
That's a good list Geordie, there could also be Skivington, Day, Kruse, Gaskell or Croft at a push.

Yeah there are definately others...though id be looking beyond Skivington now...and Gaskell would be nowhere near my squad.
Croft is a back rower, im not sure about him at 4 / 5.

Kruse is the interesting one...he seems to be quietly coming along and getting good reviews. Maybe hes one to keep an eye on.

Emack

Yes we have a huge player base..but many of those arent actually realistic options as most are sunday league players who enjoy a run out on a weekend..myself included...but never gonna be top level. Im still a registered player but never likely to play for england.
As for the foreigners...most England fans cringe at these players coming over...especially when there are just as good or better England guys being ingored.

However this is a trend that i think is being pushed out by Lancs...

I also think there are other reasons for our position over the last ten years.

One of them is that Woodward was so single minded in winning the WC...that he made no plans for after it...ie how many youngsters had been readied to replace Back or Johnson or Greenwood etc...none...which meant when they all retired on mass...we had serious issues.

I also think as a nation....we just simply arent as a good a rugby team as we thought we were...expectations too high etc.

However things seem to be just starting to move in the right direction under Lancs...so we will see.

I know we've discussed this before and both wholeheartedly agree on this. He's needs to decide on a position, and bulk up accordingly. He could be good, but at the moment, gets physically over-powered every time I see him. His basics are very decent though.

GeordieFalcon wrote:

yappysnap wrote:Yea he is pretty injury prone, is it the same injury each time or different things?
That's a good list Geordie, there could also be Skivington, Day, Kruse, Gaskell or Croft at a push.

Yeah there are definately others...though id be looking beyond Skivington now...and Gaskell would be nowhere near my squad.
Croft is a back rower, im not sure about him at 4 / 5.

Kruse is the interesting one...he seems to be quietly coming along and getting good reviews. Maybe hes one to keep an eye on.

Emack

Yes we have a huge player base..but many of those arent actually realistic options as most are sunday league players who enjoy a run out on a weekend..myself included...but never gonna be top level. Im still a registered player but never likely to play for england.
As for the foreigners...most England fans cringe at these players coming over...especially when there are just as good or better England guys being ingored.

However this is a trend that i think is being pushed out by Lancs...

I also think there are other reasons for our position over the last ten years.

One of them is that Woodward was so single minded in winning the WC...that he made no plans for after it...ie how many youngsters had been readied to replace Back or Johnson or Greenwood etc...none...which meant when they all retired on mass...we had serious issues.

I also think as a nation....we just simply arent as a good a rugby team as we thought we were...expectations too high etc.

However things seem to be just starting to move in the right direction under Lancs...so we will see.

George Kruis was immense against Munster, he seems to be another of the new breed of lock that is bulky but also athletic (a la Launchbury and Savage). He did well in the lineout at the weekend, which is a string to his bow. He has the advantage of being in a position to be directly measured against one of his rivals for the England position. My thoughts are that if/when he can supersede Mouritz Botha for Sarries, England will come calling soon after.

However, for the immediate future I am with you though in that I think it will be Kitchener that breaks through next.

Kitchener's a very good shout Cumbrian. Putting in some huge performances recently, but needs to just prove he's got the grit and can do the nasty, just like Parling's started to show with England.

Cumbrian

I said above i think Kitchener could be the next one to break through..he'll back up Parling as the lineout guy but also shows a bit of grit and skills aswell.

Kruis is getting some rave reviews....

Its nice to have some options coming through though...