My best back line

First topic message reminder :

OK, firstly it is very difficult to make any list without being totally objective and unbiased. The other problem we have is fables are told about players of the past that we may never have seen ourselves, or were only fortunate enough to see highlight reels on.

Hence we will never agree on these lists, after looking at our frined George Carlin put together a string of artciles on best per position I thought I needed to get my team in as I have quite different views on what the general consensus are on V2.

15. Chris Latham - 78 tests - 40 tries
14. Doug Howlett - 62 tests - 49 tries
13. Danie Gerber - 24 tests - 19 tries
12. Tim Horan - 80 tests - 30 tries
11. Bryan Habana - 83 tests - 47 tries
10. Dan Carter - 94 tests - 29 tries - 1385 points
9. Joost v d Westhuizen - 89 tests - 38 tries

This backline knows firstly how to score, fro Joost sniping around the fringes of the ruck or scrum, to Carter putting Horan into the gap at pace and bringing Gerber into play with the skip pass and Howlett and Habana finishing off in the corner to Latham running from deep.

This in my view is a backline that will stand back for nobody, they will run the toffee out of any opposition and as a defensive unit as sound as anything.

Between Joost and Dan the inside ball is well covered defensively, midfield with Gerber and horan as safe as any, and with Habana, Howlett on the cover defence and Latham being as solid as a rock in the last post, teams will not have it their way.

Kicking wise between Joost and Dan the territory game is easily handled and Latham from deep can counter or kick.

There you have it, my favourite back line.

That too. Also had an iron liver

ChequeredJersey wrote:That too. Also had an iron liver

Most rugby players do.

Still the best Fullback i have ever seen, not a bad openside either.

The other thing about 'the old days' is the grounds were generally attrocious. They didnt have the drainage and pace of todays game. I saw a replay of a 1960s test against the Boks some years ago on a flight and the match was so stop start, bogged in mud. There was no way anyone was going to get enough good ground or free space to run more than 20 yards.

This explains why the scores on average were so low compared to todays. Add to that the fine tuning in fitnes levels through professionalism, attention to diet, rest and maximising performance rather than 9-5 jobs, the inevitable after match/ training ales and you end up with comparisons that just arent fair.

Mid 80's onwards this all started to change so players like Fitzy onwards, who excelled in both the amateur and pro eras, are the first reall players who can be fairly compared 'on par, and also about when more technology started going into better ground conditions, though the NH were likely ahead of say, NZ at that stage with their superior grounds and need to present better in worse conditions.

Through no fault of the earlier players though. Just the way things have progressed.

My Agemakes me Jurassic,My Knowledge Encylopeadic,My Opinions if possible Objective.Are they INVALID I leave cheap jibes and scoring points off people to others.
I never SAW George Nepia but know of his reputation,I SAW Bob Scott hence my OPINION as an example he was THE best ALL ROUND full back i`ve seen.
Don Clarke was a better goal kicker,Christian Cullen debatably a better counter attacker[not much in it in my opinion].DOES that make him less of a player than JPR Williams.
IF I say I prefer Cliff Morgan over Barry John or Mike Gibson w as THE best NATURAL 10 i`ve seen does that make me wrong.I would still select Dan Carter as the BEST ALLROUNDER does that make me wrong?

Taylorman

Re pitches and drainage.

I grew up watching Cliff Morgan play for Cardiff RFC on the old Arms Park, which was also Wales's home ground. It's all but forgotten now that in 1941, when Cardiff suffered its heaviest bombing raids, a parachute mine landed on the Arms Park pitch, leaving a large crater.

This was filled in and re-grassed, but from then on that part of the pitch used to become a muddy swamp when it rained heavily. I saw it happen at games in the '50s and '60s. Players learned to adapt as there was no alternative.

The drainage wasn't really put right until the construction of the National Stadium in about 1970 - that's the stadium which preceded the Millennium!

emack2

Re Cliff Morgan and your comment about him being a natural 10, as I've previously said I grew up watching him at Cardiff.

In his autobiography, Cliff gave the reason why he never attempted a drop goal during his senior career for Cardiff, Wales and the Lions - or Bective Rangers in Ireland where he played for a while. As a schoolboy, he had once won a close game with a last-minute drop goal. The rugby master, whom he revered, refused to select Cliff for the next two games, in order to teach him that dropping goals was not the correct way to play rugby for the school! Rightly or wrongly - wrongly, I think - the lesson stuck with Cliff who tried to run almost every ball in every game.

There was a joy in his running which came across to spectators. I recall a club match against a side from England, in which Cliff had the ball hastily scooped back to him by Rex Willis at scrum-half with opposition forwards closing in. The safe thing would have been to bang the ball into touch, especially as Cardiff had a good lineout.

But Cliff set off, running like an electric mouse, darting between the forwards and making his way across the pitch despite the opposition backs. In his wake he left would-be tacklers clutching the air, some on the ground. On the opposite side of the pitch from where he had started, he kicked the ball into touch - with no ground gained! The big smile on his face said it all - he did it because it made him happy and because he could - a natural.

What would a modern coach say?

optimist wrote:Taylorman

Re pitches and drainage.

I grew up watching Cliff Morgan play for Cardiff RFC on the old Arms Park, which was also Wales's home ground. It's all but forgotten now that in 1941, when Cardiff suffered its heaviest bombing raids, a parachute mine landed on the Arms Park pitch, leaving a large crater.

This was filled in and re-grassed, but from then on that part of the pitch used to become a muddy swamp when it rained heavily. I saw it happen at games in the '50s and '60s. Players learned to adapt as there was no alternative.

The drainage wasn't really put right until the construction of the National Stadium in about 1970 - that's the stadium which preceded the Millennium!

geez thats interesting...the only bombs weve had hit Eden Park are the flour ones in the 81 protests. (Laurie knows all about that one). So how far around GB did they bomb? up as far as Manchester? Edinburgh?

Taylorman wrote:

optimist wrote:Taylorman

Re pitches and drainage.

I grew up watching Cliff Morgan play for Cardiff RFC on the old Arms Park, which was also Wales's home ground. It's all but forgotten now that in 1941, when Cardiff suffered its heaviest bombing raids, a parachute mine landed on the Arms Park pitch, leaving a large crater.

This was filled in and re-grassed, but from then on that part of the pitch used to become a muddy swamp when it rained heavily. I saw it happen at games in the '50s and '60s. Players learned to adapt as there was no alternative.

The drainage wasn't really put right until the construction of the National Stadium in about 1970 - that's the stadium which preceded the Millennium!

geez thats interesting...the only bombs weve had hit Eden Park are the flour ones in the 81 protests. (Laurie knows all about that one). So how far around GB did they bomb? up as far as Manchester? Edinburgh?

I'm not an expert, but I know that about 67,000 civilians in GB were killed during WW2, almost all by bombing. Although the majority died in the London Blitz and V-rocket attacks, every part of the country suffered, including Northern Ireland. Industrial targets, ports, etc were bombed everywhere. Some of the raids were very intense. For instance, the ship-building yards of Clydeside in Scotland were attacked in March 1941 and 6,000 civilians were killed whilst only 8 houses in the area, out of 11,000, remained intact. Bombers came into GB over the North Sea, not just the English Channel.

Amazing...impossible to imagine...

Optimist,I was referring to Mike Gibson as the best Natural fly half he moved to 12 to accomodate John with the Lions.
Cliff Morgan considered at Test level drop goals as a waste of possession if missed etc.
Morgan was a runner primarly teamed of course with Rex Willis,John played a more tactical game.

optimist wrote:Taylorman

Re pitches and drainage.

I grew up watching Cliff Morgan play for Cardiff RFC on the old Arms Park, which was also Wales's home ground. It's all but forgotten now that in 1941, when Cardiff suffered its heaviest bombing raids, a parachute mine landed on the Arms Park pitch, leaving a large crater.

This was filled in and re-grassed, but from then on that part of the pitch used to become a muddy swamp when it rained heavily. I saw it happen at games in the '50s and '60s. Players learned to adapt as there was no alternative.

The drainage wasn't really put right until the construction of the National Stadium in about 1970 - that's the stadium which preceded the Millennium!

Like Taylorman, I find this utterly amazing that the Cardiff Arms park was bombed in the war, If Eden Park got bombed we just wouldnt know what to do, you people have so much history that at times I feel like we're on another planet....Linebreakers mob had a Jap sub go into Sydney Harbour, the convicts knocked that on the head pretty good and quick,.

But to bomb a rugby ground!!!

Oz had the attack on Darwin but yes we're lucky in that respect. Nobody really sees us as a threat other than the abs and we're miles from everyone. fingers crossed...

aucklandlaurie wrote:

optimist wrote:Taylorman

Re pitches and drainage.

I grew up watching Cliff Morgan play for Cardiff RFC on the old Arms Park, which was also Wales's home ground. It's all but forgotten now that in 1941, when Cardiff suffered its heaviest bombing raids, a parachute mine landed on the Arms Park pitch, leaving a large crater.

This was filled in and re-grassed, but from then on that part of the pitch used to become a muddy swamp when it rained heavily. I saw it happen at games in the '50s and '60s. Players learned to adapt as there was no alternative.

The drainage wasn't really put right until the construction of the National Stadium in about 1970 - that's the stadium which preceded the Millennium!

Like Taylorman, I find this utterly amazing that the Cardiff Arms park was bombed in the war, If Eden Park got bombed we just wouldnt know what to do, you people have so much history that at times I feel like we're on another planet....Linebreakers mob had a Jap sub go into Sydney Harbour, the convicts knocked that on the head pretty good and quick,.

But to bomb a rugby ground!!!

Yes, and the bombers didn't even come from a country where much rugby was/is played!

But more seriously, the target was Cardiff docks, a couple of miles from the Arms Park. Many parts of the city were damaged by stray bombs and, tragically, there was considerable loss of life. The parachute mine just drifted on to the rugby ground, in similar fashion to another parachute mine which caught on the spire of Llandaff Cathedral, three miles to the north, blowing in the roof and destroying much of the interior.

That's nothing look what the yanks did to the Hiroshima Tigers homeground