Morgan Stoddart, Thom Evans and the other injured.

Straight off the bat... rugby is a tough and physical game. I know all about it. I played for my local club and had to retire at the tender age of 22 due to a rearranged knee because of a perfectly fair and legitimate tackle.

However there is a list of growing pros who are getting hurt a lot and I'm wondering what can be done to prevent it.

Morgan Stoddart is the latest in a long line of young players who has had to retire from professional rugby.

Scotland lost Thom Evans a couple of seasons ago. It's still early days to know if Ansbro will play again, Rory Lamont has spent more time injured than fit, as has Ben Cairns and the talented Ross Rennie.

Thats just Scottish players I know of! I'm sure there are dozens more who get injured and slip under the radar.

Rugby isn't like what it used to be. The players are bigger, fitter, faster and stronger and from my point of view the rules have not adapted to the physicality and danger the modern game now brings.

What can be done to help keep players safe? A shorter season? A roll on roll off substitution policy like in Ice Hockey?

Suggestions?

I think a global season is a start. Players are playing far too much rugby and it's bound to take it's toll. Have a global season and the rest is down time for bodies to fully recover from knocks etc. let's face it, during a world cup or lions year some players are playing allyear round. The European season is a mess anyway. It needs some serious thought.

...and furthermore I find it unacceptable that the rugby authorities seem to view these as collateral damage. Each retirement is treated individually but there have been so many now that it must be viewed as a problem with the sport.

It would be interesting to see a XV of players who have had to retire early due to injury.

off the top of my head

15. Stoddart
14. Evans
13. Horgan
12. Quinlan
11. Mustoe
10
9. Ellis
8. Worsley
7. Moody
6. Rees
5. Birkett
4. Brown
3. Vickery
2. Flannery
1. Thomas

Ok not quite off the top of my head but it's not hard to find the info and there are plenty I have left out. You could have replacements for the whole pack as well.

Interestingly I can't find a 10 who retired due to injury...not sure what that tells us...

Blaze and Herring from Tigers in the last few years.

Fourie just retired

McKay - to be honest some of those on your list were old timers who were coming up to retirement, probably end of the season (when they retired) anyway.

Just thinking from a Scarlets point of view in recent years we have had Daf Jones, Mark Jones, Iestyn Thomas, Rhys Thomas, James Bater, and Morgan Stoddart retire through injury, and also Gavin Thomas recently retired through injury at the Dragons (I always think of him as one of us though).

None of them were over 35 when they retired as far as I know. They're not old men really. I also know that there are plenty of younger players not mentioned here who could have been

McKay - the likes of Horgan, Worsely, Vickery and Moody (?) had already retired from international though.


As to the point of the thread, I think the main thing that can be done to try and protect the players, especially in terms of career-span, is to not rush them back from injury.

The WRU are pretty poor at this at the moment, it seems that there are players who are starting to only really play for the national team, get injured and spend a few months recovering, play two or three (if that) regional games before they are back in the national team and getting injured again. Danny Lydiate is going to end up being rushed back for Wales, whether he gets Dragons game time or not. It can't be good for the lad.

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:A roll on roll off substitution policy like in Ice Hockey?
Suggestions?

I think a roll on roll off policy is actually a bad thing.

I'd rather limit subs to 3 tactical subs per game. Additional subs allowed if front rows injured.

Now we can make 8 subs. Thats an additional 16 fresh players arriving into the game keeping the intensity levels through the roof.

If you limited subs you would have less players playing each week and you would reduce the intensity in a natural way.

Increased subs are a relatively new concept which keeps the intensity very high.

Alan Quinlan? If so he played in back row not centre if not then i apologise for this irrelevant post. Horgan was already internationally retired and not far away from retiring from club. I agree though that some players are playing too much even with the likes of the IRFU player management some internationals don't get big breaks maybe its time for some of the international test series summer or Autumn internationals to go. Actually maybe we should have club season alongside super 15 too, a regulated world calender would help, clubs wouldn't lose players to world cups so they might like it, plus if we played during summer football is off etc so might improve viewership or attendances. Just a thought though.

neilthom7 wrote:Alan Quinlan? If so he played in back row not centre if not then i apologise for this irrelevant post. Horgan was already internationally retired and not far away from retiring from club. I agree though that some players are playing too much even with the likes of the IRFU player management some internationals don't get big breaks maybe its time for some of the international test series summer or Autumn internationals to go. Actually maybe we should have club season alongside super 15 too, a regulated world calender would help, clubs wouldn't lose players to world cups so they might like it, plus if we played during summer football is off etc so might improve viewership or attendances. Just a thought though.

That said I would be willing to bet playing on hard ground in the summer would be more risky for injuries than playing in the boggy mud.

Rhys Williams of the Blues and formerly Cardiff is one that had to retire at a young age due to constant injuries.

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

neilthom7 wrote:Alan Quinlan? If so he played in back row not centre if not then i apologise for this irrelevant post. Horgan was already internationally retired and not far away from retiring from club. I agree though that some players are playing too much even with the likes of the IRFU player management some internationals don't get big breaks maybe its time for some of the international test series summer or Autumn internationals to go. Actually maybe we should have club season alongside super 15 too, a regulated world calender would help, clubs wouldn't lose players to world cups so they might like it, plus if we played during summer football is off etc so might improve viewership or attendances. Just a thought though.

That said I would be willing to bet playing on hard ground in the summer would be more risky for injuries than playing in the boggy mud.

Well that's possible but it is also possible that getting stuck in mud so your leg gets trapped can also cause injuries also with the proper watering that professionals can give the pitches wouldn't need to be hard. Also I don't know about you but in Northern Ireland hard pitches ain't a problem lol I see your point though

Red_Stag is right I think about not having roll on roll off subs. I think we need fewer subs. That way players can't be a 60 minute large unit, they need to last 80 minutes consistently and that will mean downsizing in some cases.

The hard part is knowing HOW to reduce subs. Allowing no more replacements at all seems unfair in cases of genuine injury, whereas if you allow them for injury then the spectre of fake injuries rears its ugly head.

neilthom7 wrote:Alan Quinlan? If so he played in back row not centre if not then i apologise for this irrelevant post. Horgan was already internationally retired and not far away from retiring from club. I agree though that some players are playing too much even with the likes of the IRFU player management some internationals don't get big breaks maybe its time for some of the international test series summer or Autumn internationals to go. Actually maybe we should have club season alongside super 15 too, a regulated world calender would help, clubs wouldn't lose players to world cups so they might like it, plus if we played during summer football is off etc so might improve viewership or attendances. Just a thought though.

David

It's a good point Scarlet there are things you could do I guess like if someone comes off injured they cannot play in the next game that way it would stop people coming off but then if they are genuinely injured and they recover you are punishing them so I haven't a clue what you could do lol

Trevor Woodman comes straight to mind for the injured XV - Could've been an England great IMO, had to retire at 27 or 28.

Less rugby is the simple answer for me and not just for the injuries.

Less rugby, more rest time, more players fit and firing, higher quality rugby for everyone as a result. It really is saddening to see the injury problems running deeper and deeper, players getting recurring injuries at a younger age etc. If it isn't dealt with soon the problem will run deeper than pro level with fewer parents encouraging kids to take up the sport for instance.

Steve Thompson should be on the list twice

I think to that rugby player with advancements in nutrition, professionalism etc have got as a rule, larger strong and so collisions are now harder and more impactful than ever before as well meaning injuries are likely to be more common. This is something which we cannot really change but less games I guess would help reduce the effects of this and not rushing players back or asking them to play through injury.

I also think quite a lot of players bulk up too much - and thus become too heavy and powerful for their skeletons. Jason White a prime example - this leads to joint injuries especially knees

neilthom7 wrote:I think to that rugby player with advancements in nutrition, professionalism etc have got as a rule, larger strong and so collisions are now harder and more impactful than ever before as well meaning injuries are likely to be more common. This is something which we cannot really change but less games I guess would help reduce the effects of this and not rushing players back or asking them to play through injury.

In my completely unsolicited medical opinion I cant help but think that getting a player surgery so that they can be brought back from injury quicker does more harm than good in the long run.

IronMike wrote:

neilthom7 wrote:I think to that rugby player with advancements in nutrition, professionalism etc have got as a rule, larger strong and so collisions are now harder and more impactful than ever before as well meaning injuries are likely to be more common. This is something which we cannot really change but less games I guess would help reduce the effects of this and not rushing players back or asking them to play through injury.

In my completely unsolicited medical opinion I cant help but think that getting a player surgery so that they can be brought back from injury quicker does more harm than good in the long run.

Agree

It is a very big problem in World rugby IMO - the effect on the players bodies and resulting form is huge, and the seemingly decreasing playing careers is worrying.

But this also has the knock on effect of turning off fans who get disillusioned with rarely getting to see the best players play together for their teams.

And it'll probably only get worse as players, in all positions, need to be bigger, faster and more physical to suceed in rugby and combat the likes of North, Roberts and Tuilagi and as a result the trend is that all players are getting bigger and faster with bigger and harder impacts.

It all stems from strength in depth for me.

Lets say Dan Carter has an injury... he can be replaced with Cruden et al and the loss isn't massive.... NZ can afford to give him the full amount of rest required and get the best out of him in the long run.

Take Sexton with the same injury. IRE have significantly less strength in depth. They don't have another world class pivot. They may bring him back at the earliest time possible which could hinder his long term recovery as they need him to be competitive.

Only a scenario.

Lesser sides must have a lot of pressure to field their best players. Even SA under PDV played guys who were heavily fatigued.

In American football the squads are massive and they only play <20 games a season. Perhaps rugby has to cut down the number of games, the number of competitions and take a more pragmatic approach to player management esp. in club rugby.

Yeah there's huge pressure to play as many international games as possible to bring crowds, sponsorship, money into the game and finance the grass roots game (which is essential at the end of the day), but there's also huge pressure to play the best players to remain competitive (as IMO the analysis, training and improved defences mean there's less difference between the top 8-10 teams than ever) and also to attract the most fans/sponsors - who want to see the Sextons, Norths, Ashtons ect as opposed to the Paddy Jackson, Liam Williams, Sharples ect (regardless of current form or future potential).
But there is growing evidence that the players can't take this punishing regime, and something has to give (frequently the players bodies)

Smirnoffpriest wrote:Yeah there's huge pressure to play as many international games as possible to bring crowds, sponsorship, money into the game and finance the grass roots game (which is essential at the end of the day), but there's also huge pressure to play the best players to remain competitive (as IMO the analysis, training and improved defences mean there's less difference between the top 8-10 teams than ever) and also to attract the most fans/sponsors - who want to see the Sextons, Norths, Ashtons ect as opposed to the Paddy Jackson, Liam Williams, Sharples ect (regardless of current form or future potential).
But there is growing evidence that the players can't take this punishing regime, and something has to give (frequently the players bodies)

That is the really worrying thing, in order to get the 'international only fan' through the gates, we abuse the bodies of some of our most talented players and hamper the opertunities of players who are probably just as good, and if they were given the game time would also be household names.

If we really wanted to look after the players then we would rotate the international players more. Taking Wales as an example I honestly think we have two or three players who are capable of playing in each position internationally. Granted some are not quite as good as others, but a good squad rotation would mean that the over all team strength would be unchanged.

15 - Halfpenny / Li Williams / Byrne
14 - Cuthbert / Fussell / Prydie
13 - J Davies / G Maule / Bishop
12 - J Roberts / Beck / Sc Williams
11 - North / Robinson / E Walker
10 - Biggar / Priestland / Hook (Patchell?)
9 - Phillips / Knoyle / Webb

1 - James / Bevington / Jenkins
2 - Hibbard / Owens / Reed
3 - A Jones / Mitchell / Gill
4 - B Davies / I Evans / Reed
5 - AW Jones / Charteris / King
6 - Lydiate / Shingler / Turnbull
7 - Warburton / Tipuric / Navidi
8 - Faletau / R Jones / McCusker

If two of the 'stars' were rested up each game, and brought in one of the players who are just rated below them that would not make too much of a difference. And to be honest that is probably better than what we have now where we lose players for months on end due to injuries, and have to draft in replacements who are being given their first real experiences and being expected to fill in.

I agree totally (except to be pedantic - which is always fun, and say that it's Rees at hooker!) - you also forgot Ball, Patterson, Pretorious, Dirksen...

It's a shame to think how stronger that list would be with the likes of Stodds, Rhys and Iestyn Thomas, Peel, Delve, G Thomas ect

Priest I think it should be Lou at hooker instead of Smiler, based on his lineout throwing recently.

LOL you could be right - you never know it could be a Perfect Day for Wales ...