Is Warburton Only Being Selected Above Tipuric Because He's the Captain?

Simple question. Tipuric has been on fire, Warburton has not. He seemingly is struggling to motivate his troops. Were it not for the Captaincy (let's say for example that Halfpenny is Captaining the side) is there any likelihood that Sam would be in the starting line-up?

I know Wales have been hit by injuries etc but even so - if he's not playing well, why is he still there?

Yes.

No. He's selected because Howley does not know how to select well.

Everyone knows it makes sense to keep picking out-of-from players, some or most of whom play in sides that usually lose.

I think Howley felt Shingler would give the back-row more balance, and offer an additional lineout option. I suspect that was his rationale.

Flawed of course, as predicted by almost every rugby fan on these boards, and confirmed by hindsight, Tipuric should have started.

Paul James should have started as well.

The Lions could well be Rob Howley's swansong as a coach. He just doesn't cut it.

"I think Howley felt Shingler would give the back-row more balance, and offer an additional lineout option. I suspect that was his rationale." -- He did. But:

1) Shingler didn't have the ball thrown to him very much at all in lineouts -- once maybe?

2) Howley forgot that a team whose playing philosophy is based on bish-bash, fitness, and kick the ball in the air and chase, needs to have players who can win the ball at the breakdown.

Several coaches, including Henry, have commented in the past that all coaches have a shelf life. Maybe 3 years. Then things get stale. Same old voices. In Howley's case, he lacks experience and the job has come too soon.

Howley will probably end up as head coach at Edinburgh next season, or even land the top job as Scotland head coach.

It's how we roll.

naturally... you can drop players quick if they don't perform but senior players and the captain especially are more difficult to drop. They add more to the side in terms of experience and younger players often follow their lead.

Thats the problem with Warburton... thoroughout the whole nightmare period since the GS is that he doesn't seem to take the initiative, its great to be a captain when things are going well but he's most important in the bad times and at the moment he's no where to be seen.

But this isn't just down to him. Look at guys like Roberts, Adam Jones, Phillips... you would expect the senior players to step up in these times but no one really has... no one bar Halfpenny have performed throughout.

Warbs did a fairly good job chopping on Saturday, I don't think he's currently as out of form as some are saying, but he's not at his best. Tipuric has to be given a decent shot at it. I'm not quite sure why he doesn't count as a lineout option.

It seems to me that Howley (and Gatland, perhaps) believes that Wales did (relatively) well at the World Cup and won last year's Six Nations because Warburton was captain. Ever since then, if he's been fit, he's been in the side and captaining it (apart from the Samoa game, which judging from the team selection, Howley though was a certain victory).

Is he the best openside we have? Evidently not, not even close. He should be on the bench. You should pick your best XV, then appoint a captain from that XV.

Howley has proven that he's not ready for the top job. He hasn't learnt from any of his past mistakes regarding team selection and tactics.

Tipuric is the most obvious, he has been consistently one of the Ospreys top performer and makes an impact when he plays. Yet Howley continues to ignore him, keeps picking Warburton. It seems reputation comes before form, which is lunacy in IMHO.

Matthew Rees is not even starting for the Scarlets, yet he's ahead of KEn Owens.

If Preistland wasn't injured he would have started saturday.

I find it amazing that a guy who has never had to select a team before in his career is given one of the biggest jobs in rugby, and shock of horrors he's ballsing it up!!!

The likes of Young, Jones, Davies, Ruddock and even Edwards, and a few other prem coaches have been crafting their skills for years, and would be far better suited to the head role than a guy who was given a small unit role for a year and a half before being promoted to international attack coach!

[quote="BlueNote"]Warbs did a fairly good job chopping on Saturday, I don't think he's currently as out of form as some are saying, but he's not at his best. Tipuric has to be given a decent shot at it. I'm not quite sure why he doesn't count as a lineout option.[/quote]

Good Point, Tips is an excellent line out forward he wins tons of ball for the Ospreys. Which just shows how clueless Stan is, he should know this, which makes picking Shindler to bolster the lineout not only unnecessary but FKWITTED

Warren Gatland gave Sam Warburton the Captains arm band.

Rob Howley will not do any thing to undermine Gatland. So unless he (Warburton) gets injured. he will be selected as captain and keep getting in the team over other better players than himself.( Tipuric) for example.

It'd be a lot clearer to tell if Lydiate were fit and playing. Tupiric could be cover for the backrow but neither Shingler nor Warburton did much good on Saturday so Tupiric had to come on.

Warburton is a lot easier to like as captain than say someone like Steve Borthwick, who wasn't flash as a player nor particularly good as a captain. But when a captain isn't in form and not exhibiting much in the way of leadership, then it sends a bad message to the rest of the team.

I think JDV's best days are behind him for SA but it was more a case of needing someone with experience after SA were ravaged by injury. Wales have their own injury problems as well as senior players out of form, but the renaissance of Ryan Jones and his previous captaincy make him an ideal candidate for me. Dump Warburton and send out the message to the other senior players that your best is sometimes not good enough and players are not entitled to anything. Performance is the only thing that matters. Many people didn't think much of Coombs as a possibility but the lad played with vigour and a certain degree of aplomb and the young players showed up quite a lot of the senior players. Wales need to look at England and see what happened to the likes of Tindall and Easter and clear out the driftwood relying too much on past reputations.

"Performance is the only thing that matters. " -- Howley won't change anything dramatically, and I very much doubt he will drop Warburton. It's simply beyond him to pick players in form. It's also beyond him to include some v young players with promise and additionally bring them into the squad, at least to train, and put out the word that they will be considered. Sticking with players who haven't performed for ages is pathetic and spineless, but it's what I would expect from someone who is inexperienced. The players who don't perform must realise they're a shoe-in for the next game. That's hardly a recipe for changing your results. Several of Wales' players should have been dropped in the Autumn.

Last year Lydiate would take the tackler downa and Sam would take the ball. In a way Dan made it easier for Sam. This year Sam just isn't getting the service.
Tipuric did well when he came on but how much of that was because Ireland weren't trying. Also Peter went off for Ireland and then wales seemed to get the upper hand.

IF you were going on form how many of the welsh team would be there. by rights the team should be the os with a couple of scarlets. Most of the french based players aren't getting game time so can't be in form.

From memory Warburton missed as much of the last 6Ns as he played through either being replaced at half time or not starting. That suggests his leadership was not critical to Wales winning the GS.

An article in the Times on Saturday looked at the 6 opensides playing this weekend. Apparently Warburton in 11 6N starts has made 2 turnovers. In less 6N matches SOB and robshaw, neither of whome are deemed to be proper 7s, have made more.

Warburton had made 89 tackles and missed 3. SOB 110 in 10 matches (missed 2) and Robshaw 69 in 5 games (missed 1).

So Wales won the GS despite his absences. He does not make turnovers. He is not a tackle machine.

So what does he bring?

Tipuric should start against France.

SOB 110 tackles and mist 2 how is he not nailed down for the lions.

i,m not Welsh but a pal of mine who is and played at semi pro level said when fit Lydiate should be captain as any player at any level would be inspired by playing along side Lydiate it,s not what he says it,s the way he plays.He leads the line and is like an express train off the mark and hits the opposition like one.Players like him are true leaders not the talkers at post match interviews

Here's a question.....:

With Wales on an 8 game losing streak, including an unprecedented 5 game losing streak at home, can anyone name a player that has been dropped during that time?
Does that strke anyone as odd?

I agree, Lydiate is the type of captain that leads through performance rather than shouting and screaming in the changing room.

We have seen truly how crucial he is to the Welsh set up. I think now he has been absent, people realize how much Wales depend on him and what he brings. Sooner he;s back the better. I think Tupiric would do a sterling job with Lydiate with him. Ideally, with Jones back I'd bring him in at 6 with Tips 7. I'd also like to see Coombs stay at lock as he really gave it his all last weekend, and will be chomping at the bit to play against France, full of confidence after last weekend.

Personally, I'd also like to see Scott Williams brought in at 12. Every time him and JD2 play together, they look threatening. They both have a great understanding and in fairness to Williams, in the last few games when coming on from Wales he's offered far more than Roberts has done.

Easy question to answer YES he is only there because he is captain and unfortunately Howley hasn't got the balls to drop him, we will see him moved to 6 to accomodate Tipuric but not dropped for him.

I fear we are getting into the realms we did with Ryan Jones a few seasons back where we knew he ws going to get pikced cos he was captain despit being off form and it affected his game more, I fear its doing the same for Sam.

I wouldn't say Warbs has been playing badly by neutral standards, his tackling is still decent enough and he still puts in some strong carries. It's when you compare his current performances to the heights he hit in NZ that it becomes evident he has gone back a long way. His speed at the breakdown has declined shockingly. Very worrying to have a skipper who isn't leading from the front, especially when you want that player to be the most consistent.

I could understand this if he was in his thirties and at the tail end of his career but realistically he's only 24 and has plenty more to offer Wales as a player and a leader. What could cause his game to go so slack? Injury? That's what some have said but then he has been back for a good 6/7 months now, not sure that excuse is valid any more.

Tipuric has been the form 7 in Wales for our last 8 or so tests and thoroughly deserves to start in Paris, whether at Sam's expense or somebody else's.