Is Warburton really that much better than Tipuric?

Having watched most Ospreys games this season Tipuric has been consistently one the best players when on the pitch. Similarly, all his games for Wales he has impressed. Take the first ten minutes against the Barbarians, I counted 3 if not 4 turnovers by Tipuric alone, I can't imagine what the stats would have been for the whole game. Now, we all know about how brilliant a player Warburton is, i'm not denying it, but I wonder if he weren't the captain whether he would still be starting for Wales. Either way its a bloody close call. Anyway, I suspect people will disagree with me, or at least people who have only seen him play for Wales and not for club. Your thought please.



On another note you could look at trying to form one of the two into an 8 as they are both vastly superior to Faletau, but that probably that wouldn't work as switching players' positions doesn't usually work.

Shane_Williams wrote:
On another note you could look at trying to form one of the two into an 8 as they are both vastly superior to Faletau, but that probably that wouldn't work as switching players' positions doesn't usually work.

If you leave out Faletau then the back row becomes very unbalanced. As it is there is a nice balance.

Why change a winning backrow combo of Lydiate,Warburton,Faletau?

Just be happy you have a backrower who can step into the breach if one of them is injured.

Injuries happen I am sure Tupiric will get an opportunity to shine at some point.

Shane, are you bragging about your depth at 7, or you truly think there is competition?

Tipuric is relatively new on the international scene but has shown up well. Warburton has more power and physicality but Tips brings more subtlety. Its a great problem to have but Warburton is in the key position at the moment and of course is captain. Lets see how it develops as Warbs has been injury prone of late.

Faletau is immense, I would not leave him out of the side.

There was a time I think last season I thought Tipuric might be better than Warburton, but time and time again Warburton really steps up and has a brilliant game, he single handedly destroyed SA at the break down in the world cup. (dont bite my head off bil)

Tipuric is a fine player, and we are lucky to have several talented backrowers, competition improves players so it will be a case of horses for courses in the future as to who will start at 7.

biltong- I truly think that there is competition, but as Warburton is captain then I see it as almost impossible for Tipuric to start.

iron mike- i'm not sure who is better out of the two tbh, but that was my point.

i wasn't saying that we should change the back-row, just saying that it was a possibility, and that even though Tipuric is a better player imo than Faletau, probably not at 8. Main point of the thread was Warbs and Tips, not really Faletau, that was just a passing thought :P

Tips is def not an 8 - he lacks the strength and Physicality. He's a very athletic 7 and able replacement to Warburton if needed.

Shane_Williams wrote:you could look at trying to form one of the two into an 8 as they are both vastly superior to Faletau

It would help if you were comparing like with like. A Porsche is quicker than a JCB but that doesn't make it 'vastly superior' if you're looking to move a load of rubble.

IMO there is still clear daylight between Warburton and Tipuric, and that's not including his captaincy credentials. Warburton will get better too.

It's great to have real competition though - I wish we had it in every position. Warburton, Lydiate and Faletau have the potential to be a world class combination and they've made a great start.

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:

Shane_Williams wrote:you could look at trying to form one of the two into an 8 as they are both vastly superior to Faletau

It would help if you were comparing like with like. A Porsche is quicker than a JCB but that doesn't make it 'vastly superior' if you're looking to move a load of rubble.

Sorry, vastly superior players. Of course that means in their position and I did say that the transition to 8 would probably not be so successful. Of course you need to take into account that they play in different positions

Using your logic, would you say that you can't compare Shane Williams and Matt Stevens because they play in different positions. I think everyone, including Stevens himself, would agree that Shane is/was ( ) a better rugby player. However, according to you that would not be possible to compare. i hope that by amending that to "vastly superiorplayers" clears up any confusion.


Using your example, take a relatively expensive JCB, costing 20,000 pounds, whilst take the average price for a Porsche as 100,000 pounds. Whilst very clear that they have different attributes, the Porsche is worth 5 times as much. It would be more convenient if you could compare like with like but its perfectly possible to do so otherwise.

So basically, imo, Warburton and Tipuric are better (vastly superior) players than Faletau.

Warburton reminds me of a young McCaw, Tipuric of a young Martyn Williams (if playing under the new interpretations)

At the moment, Tipuric is playing very well, and is an excellent 7.

However, Warburton has more to his game than Tipuric, and is more of a leader - Warburtons try saving tackle on Tuilangi in the 6Ns was one of my highlights - Warburton has a habit of being in the right place and never gives up.

Tipuric is probably the best new international 7 in world rugby at the moment and is better than a lot of countries starting 7s. He is an incredible backup to have and im sure he will push Warburton all the way. I would also like to see him tried as the Wales captain in games he starts - he does it for the Ospreys already after all.

Tips has a different style to Warburton, Both win turnovers but Tipuric is a better link man whilst Warburton is far more destructive in defence. You are more likely to see Tips carrying out wide or linking with the backs much like nuggett whilst Warbs tends to carry closer to the pack and drives.

Whilst they both do the primary job of an openside at the breakdown in the setpiece Warbs is better at scrum time whilst Tipuric is more often used as a lineout option. At the moment with the way the rules are Warburton is a better fit a destructive openside rather tahn a creative one. Having both players is certainly a luxury for Wales. Back row competition is very good at the moment.

No, that doesn't clear things up at all. Sam Warburton and Justin Tipuric are excellent opensides, Toby Faletau is an excellent number eight. No one of them is a vastly superior player than the others.

I can't see where Faletau has gone wrong to try and ask someone to change from a position that excell at on an international level to one they probably haven't played at club/regional level.

Toby doesn't do anything flashy for Wales but he has an outstanding defensive workrate.

The only thing Faletau has done wrong was shave his afro

Faletau needs to impose himself on the field more in the same way he does for the Dragons. He has serious talent, but he was not as good as his competition at 8 in the 6 nations. As for Warburton, he played 6 to accommodate Williams in his early career for the Cardiff Blues, and they looked good together. He switched to 7 later in his career and was described as a "6.5". Also, Tipuric has a similar game to Williams. Maybe that is something to think about.

Cue Dreamer telling me off.

If it is a choice between the two though, it has to be Warburton. His leadership skills alone set him apart, and he is world class.

I agree Rory - he's a big young bloke, he hammers attackers but needs to be able to do the bullocking runs he is known for in a Dragons shirt.

Whose the Aussie 8 likely to be - is it the dude with the righteous afro also ? I'd like Toby to bury him into the ground and scalp him - there can only be one !!

Sorry... very little sleep and too much coffee

I have this to say and I am gonna say it, it is the reality of the situation no matter your individual opinions of Warburton.
He is not only a star player but also the captain.

Does this not make the whole point moot?

He will have to lose some serious form before being dropped as captain and player.

Its a very unusual yet splendid postition for us Welsh to be in though biltongbek

It isn't even just his captaincy, he seems to have a talismanic figure about him.

munkian wrote:Its a very unusual yet splendid postition for us Welsh to be in though biltongbek

Bilgtong surely will understand this position though in terms of the back row - South Africa have about 10 potential world class players there! Seriously, it isn't fair.

Funny when you think that 2-3 years ago openside was considered one of our weakest positions. The fact that Gats persuaded Nugget out of retirement shows how low on class 7's we were. Now it's one of the most promising, two excellent options in Warbs and Tipuric with Turnbull standing by if both of them are crocked and Navidi one to watch in future. Shingler can also fill in as evidenced in the 6N, though his abilities are much more apt for the blindside.

As good as Tips has been, and he has been truly magnificent and instrumental for the O's and Wales, Sam hasn't really done anything to lose his place except be injured recently. He's the skipper and has yet to let us down. His one full game this year's 6N he got MOTM and he's helped introduce an excellent work ethic into the side both on and off the field. From when he first recieved the armband the squad has shown real signs of improvement in determination and overall maturity and I honestly feel Sam's role has played a big part in making them what they are currently.

I have no doubt that should Warbs' form drop Tipuric will pounce on the opportunity. We couldn't really hope for a better top two contenders in any position and it's great to see Tips pushing Warbs all the way. It's that competition within the squad that I believe draws the best from everyone, when they play it's not just for Wales but it's for their starting places.

I'd urge people to be patient with both players. They've both excelled for their age and we should be thankful to have two of what some other sides can't even boast one. And both are still young enough to learn more and keep improving.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Bilgtong surely will understand this position though in terms of the back row - South Africa have about 10 potential world class players there! Seriously, it isn't fair.

May be so mate, but when Burger, Smith, Vermeulen and Deysel is injured and guys like Ashley Johnson and Heinrich Brussow doesn't even make the squad and you put together a back row where Coetzee doesn't have a cap and the back ups are also inexperienced, we'll see this weekend how good our depth really is.

Heinrich Brussow didn't make the squad? How come?

Yeah but you do realise you mentioned about 5 world class injured options there, you still have the likes of Alberts, Coetzee, Daniel, Strauss, Kankowski.. seriously biltong, that is crazy. There are going to be some very unlucky guys there, who would get onto most other teams in the world.

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:Heinrich Brussow didn't make the squad? How come?

Meyer's explanation was "horses for courses"

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Yeah but you do realise you mentioned about 5 world class injured options there, you still have the likes of Alberts, Coetzee, Daniel, Strauss, Kankowski.. seriously biltong, that is crazy. There are going to be some very unlucky guys there, who would get onto most other teams in the world.

I think our biggest challenge is what will be the best combinations

As captain and a very effective leader, Warburton will have to lose a lot of form to lose his place. I've watched Tips a lot for the Ospreys -- he is a superb player, with greater pace than Warburton and with different strengths. If Warburton is injured (and he has been injured for the last 3 months), Tips will get opportunities to start. They are tow excllent opensides, and both will get better. We're lucky! And there are some young opensides developing to put pressure on them both - Dan Thomas for one (I think that's his name).

Yeah, that is true. You have previously described Strauss as a Smith-esque player haven't you? If so, he should eventually start.

I would like to see Heyneke Meyer select the following two teams of backrowers to play an exhibition 7's match. It might give us supporters the idea of who is most physical, athletic, ball skills etc.

Jean Deysel
Willem Alberts
Ryan Kankowski
Keegan Daniel
Schalk Burger
Heinrich Brussow
Juan Smith

Reserves
Josh Strauss
Derrik Minnie

vs

Duane Vermeulen
Francois Louw
Marcell Coetzee
Ashley Johnson
Siya Kolisi
Dewald Potgieter
Pierre Spies

reserves

CJ Stander
Nick Koster


will be very educational. eh?

Seriously biltong, those options are unreal. We should start a campaign to see that game.

The Dragon's are developing a few decent young flankers - seems Gwent is the new back row factory for Wales

Wales are lucky with two very good 7's but Warb's hardly completes a game beyond the first half. How anyone can say he is a good captain when he cost Wales in the RWC semi against France and he is constantly injured for Wales. Warbs only manged three halves during the 6N GS, Wales had three captain's during the 6N hence Warb's should not get all the credit for the recent success. Dropping/losing Warb's has not affected the Wales performances this year hence if Tipuric is the form 7 he should be picked (he is the form player and he has played constantly) above a player who has not played for, how long?

Jesus, who pished in your doughnut ? Not a happy bunny atm are we ?

munkian wrote:Jesus, who pished in your doughnut ? Not a happy bunny atm are we ?

Well technically you can't pish in a dougnut, it has a hole, only through it.

You could p!ss in the dough as you were making it, I suppose, but why would you want to do that?

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:You could p!ss in the dough as you were making it, I suppose, but why would you want to do that?

cause you don't have any milk or water?

Or you're just experimenting with new flavours.

Just stating facts and balance.

I agree the Dragons have some very good back row players, I am glad they picked up Waters from Pontypridd as the Blues ignored him, he is a very good prospect. The Dragons have at least 3 good 7's I can think of, just need more depth in the front 5 for these guys to get stuck in.

How many holes do your doughnuts have ?

munkian wrote:How many holes do your doughnuts have ?

You're thinking bagle there mate.

biltongbek wrote:I would like to see Heyneke Meyer select the following two teams of backrowers to play an exhibition 7's match. It might give us supporters the idea of who is most physical, athletic, ball skills etc.

Jean Deysel
Willem Alberts
Ryan Kankowski
Keegan Daniel
Schalk Burger
Heinrich Brussow
Juan Smith

Reserves
Josh Strauss
Derrik Minnie

vs

Duane Vermeulen
Francois Louw
Marcell Coetzee
Ashley Johnson
Siya Kolisi
Dewald Potgieter
Pierre Spies

reserves

CJ Stander
Nick Koster


will be very educational. eh?

And still you feel the need to employ James Haskell?

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:

biltongbek wrote:I would like to see Heyneke Meyer select the following two teams of backrowers to play an exhibition 7's match. It might give us supporters the idea of who is most physical, athletic, ball skills etc.

Jean Deysel
Willem Alberts
Ryan Kankowski
Keegan Daniel
Schalk Burger
Heinrich Brussow
Juan Smith

Reserves
Josh Strauss
Derrik Minnie

vs

Duane Vermeulen
Francois Louw
Marcell Coetzee
Ashley Johnson
Siya Kolisi
Dewald Potgieter
Pierre Spies

reserves

CJ Stander
Nick Koster


will be very educational. eh?

And still you feel the need to employ James Haskell?

Sorry PSW, you need to have a dig elsewhere, it ain't SA who employed him.

Don't feel all bad Rory, you've got O'Brien who's more than merely good and an exciting prospect in O'Mahony waiting in the wings. There's also Chris Henry, though I'm not sure if he's a regular 7 or not, and Willie Faloon of whom I've seen and heard very positive things, as outside bets.

Having said that I'm not sure any of them are in the traditional openside 'fetcher' mould and without trying to sound smug (after all you had David Wallace for years whom I rated very highly as a disruptive force at the breakdown) I'll maintain that having a natural 7 is usually of benefit when measured up against a non-traditional 6.5 or a flat out 6 thrown in at openside.

Knowsit17 wrote:Don't feel all bad Rory, you've got O'Brien who's more than merely good and an exciting prospect in O'Mahony waiting in the wings. There's also Chris Henry, though I'm not sure if he's a regular 7 or not, and Willie Faloon of whom I've seen and heard very positive things, as outside bets.

Having said that I'm not sure any of them are in the traditional openside 'fetcher' mould and without trying to sound smug (after all you had David Wallace for years whom I rated very highly as a disruptive force at the breakdown) I'll maintain that having a natural 7 is usually of benefit when measured up against a non-traditional 6.5 or a flat out 6 thrown in at openside.

We had this discussion on the SA squad thread. It is actually quite interesting, personally I think that an out-and-out 7 is required for any team looking to dominate the breakdown and turnover stats.

Knowsit17 wrote:Don't feel all bad Rory, you've got O'Brien who's more than merely good and an exciting prospect in O'Mahony waiting in the wings. There's also Chris Henry, though I'm not sure if he's a regular 7 or not, and Willie Faloon of whom I've seen and heard very positive things, as outside bets.

Having said that I'm not sure any of them are in the traditional openside 'fetcher' mould and without trying to sound smug (after all you had David Wallace for years whom I rated very highly as a disruptive force at the breakdown) I'll maintain that having a natural 7 is usually of benefit when measured up against a non-traditional 6.5 or a flat out 6 thrown in at openside.

No I am very happy with our options. Eventually we will have O'Mahony at 8 and O'Brien at 6/7. Not sure who will partner O'Brien. Wallace was never a "natural" openside (I hate that term, because to me he was the perfect openside for us) who followed the ball and made many turnovers, he was just the complete player. I know that I would take Wallace over nearly any other "natural" openside.

We had this discussion on the SA squad thread. It is actually quite interesting, personally I think that an out-and-out 7 is required for any team looking to dominate the breakdown and turnover stats.

Strongly agree, 80% of the time this would be the case imo. Players like O'Brien whose physical presence is more emphasized than their ability to snaffle opposition ball can be very effective but only to a certain extent. I felt this was summed up in NZ, a Pocock-less Wallabies side were monstered through the forwards while, might I add to my delight and again trying my best not to sound gloating, the superiority of Warbs on the deck shone through in the QF. Whether the Irish back row would have been as dominant had Pocock been fit we'll never know.

I find two good 7's tend to nullify and cancel each other out, which could well be the case this Saturday between Warbs and Pocock, but a non-traditional 7 will more often than not be at a disadvantage up against a specialist fetcher.

Rory, so how exactly do you define a "natural" openside when people use the term? I classed Wallace in that category because he was disruptive at the breakdown and very capable of turning over opposition ball. Just because he was also good with ball in hand doesn't mean he couldn't be seen as an out-and-out 7 imo, that just made him all the better. When I say non-natural or 6.5, I'm generally thinking of somebody physical but whose primary traits don't include regular steals on the deck.