Scotland vs Italy - time to get serious - build up thread

[R!skysports]

Well we have had our first kick in the teeth for 2013, with a terrible performance against a strong England. Can we turn it around in time for Italy. Only two changes, both forced by injury. If this a good thing, or a sign of managers without a clue

Team for Saturday

Scotland team to play Italy:
Stuart Hogg (Glasgow Warriors);
Sean Maitland (Glasgow Warriors),
Sean Lamont (Glasgow Warriors),
Matt Scott (Edinburgh),
Tim Visser (Edinburgh);
Ruaridh Jackson (Glasgow Warriors),
Greig Laidlaw (Edinburgh);
Ryan Grant (Glasgow Warriors),
Ross Ford (Edinburgh),
Euan Murray (Worcester Warriors),
Richie Gray (Sale Sharks),
Jim Hamilton (Gloucester),
Rob Harley (Glasgow Warriors),
Kelly Brown (Saracens),
Johnnie Beattie (Montpellier).

Replacements: Dougie Hall (Glasgow Warriors)/Pat MacArthur (Glasgow Warriors), Moray Low (Glasgow Warriors), Geoff Cross (Edinburgh Rugby), Alastair Kellock (Glasgow Warriors), David Denton (Edinburgh Rugby), Henry Pyrgos (Glasgow Warriors), Duncan Weir (Glasgow Warriors), Max Evans (Castres).


Who should be on last chance saloon - Hamilton, Ford, Jackson and Lamont.


Concerned - Brown playing at 7 still


So how do you expect this to go. If italy play like they did at the weekend, we will lose. It is in our hands to get ourselves our of this mess, but do we have the passion, defensive ability or even the still to do so?


Current Italy Squad

15-Andrea Masi,
14-Giovanbattista Venditti,
13-Tommaso Benvenuti,
12-Gonzalo Canale,
11-Luke McLean,
10-Luciano Orquera,
9-Tobias Botes;
1-Andrea Lo Cicero,
2-Leonardo Ghiraldini,
3-Martin Castrogiovanni,
4-Quintin Geldenhuys,
5-Francesco Minto,
6-Alessandro Zanni,
7-Simone Favaro,
8-Sergio Parisse (capt)

Replacements: 16-Davide Giazzon, 17-Alberto De Marchi, 18-Lorenzo Cittadini, 19-Antonio Pavanello, 20-Paul Derbyshire, 21-Kris Burton, 22-Gonzalo Garcia

[George Carlin]

Thanks Risky.

I see that Valerio Bernabò and our nemesis, the free scoring Robert Barbieri have been released back to Treviso for their game against the Dragons on the 8th which hopefully means neither will feature in the match day squad.

For the purposes of the OP, you might want to add that Italy's 23 will be taken from the following pool:

Props:
Martin CASTROGIOVANNI (Leicester Tigers, 92 caps)
Lorenzo CITTADINI (Benetton Treviso, 17 caps)
Alberto DE MARCHI (Benetton Treviso, 5 caps)
Andrea LO CICERO (Racing-Metro Paris, 99 caps)
Michele RIZZO (Benetton Treviso, 5 caps)

Hookers:
Leonardo GHIRALDINI (Benetton Treviso, 49 caps)
Davide GIAZZON (Zebre Rugby, 6 caps)

Second rows:
Joshua FURNO (Narbonne, 6 caps)*
Quintin GELDENHUYS (Zebre Rugby, 34 caps)
Francesco MINTO (Benetton Treviso, 3 caps)
Antonio PAVANELLO (Benetton Treviso, 14 caps)

Flankers/no.8:
Paul Edward DERBYSHIRE (Benetton Treviso, 17 caps)
Simone FAVARO (Benetton Treviso, 17 caps)*
Sergio PARISSE (Stade Francais, 92 caps) – capitano
Ratu Manoa Seru VOSAWAI (Benetton Treviso, 10 caps)
Alessandro ZANNI (Benetton Treviso, 70 caps)

Scrum half:
Tobias BOTES (Benetton Treviso, 9 caps)
Edoardo GORI (Benetton Treviso, 20 caps)*

Fly half:
Kristopher BURTON (Benetton Treviso, 19 caps)
Luciano ORQUERA (Zebre Rugby, 30 caps)

Centres/wings/full back:
Tommaso BENVENUTI (Benetton Treviso, 24 caps)*
Paolo BUSO (Zebre Rugby, 1 cap)
Gonzalo CANALE (La Rochelle, 78 caps)
Gonzalo GARCIA (Zebre Rugby, 25 caps)
Tommaso IANNONE (Benetton Treviso, 1 cap)*
Andrea MASI (London Wasps, 73 caps)
Luke MCLEAN (Benetton Treviso, 42 caps)
Alberto SGARBI (Benetton Treviso, 24 caps)
Giovanbattista VENDITTI (Zebre Rugby, 10 caps)*

* members of National Academy

[RDW]

If we lose on Saturday I think I'm going to try to flog my tickets for the Ireland and Wales game - me and the missus have got much better things to spend 140 quid on!

Have to say there's a very high chance of that happening. Scotland tend to not do overly well with high pressure must win games.

[captain carrantuohil]

Well, seeing as they've apparently been wasting time cutting a new record, due to get its initial airing on Saturday at Murrayfield, the squad had better hope that they put in a performance this time round.

I read with interest that a third of the squad were serving hot drinks in Edinburgh, five days before the England game, as some kind of jolly meet the public stunt. Now we've got a musical interlude that's bound to be dire - who do you think is responsible for this PR guff?

[Pat_Mustard]

[Tattie Scones RRN]

Well we have had our first kick in the teeth for 2013, with a terrible performance against a strong England. Can we turn it around in time for Italy. Only two changes, both forced by injury. If this a good thing, or a sign of managers without a clue

Team for Saturday

Scotland team to play Italy:
Stuart Hogg (Glasgow Warriors);
Sean Maitland (Glasgow Warriors),
Sean Lamont (Glasgow Warriors),
Matt Scott (Edinburgh),
Tim Visser (Edinburgh);
Ruaridh Jackson (Glasgow Warriors),
Greig Laidlaw (Edinburgh);
Ryan Grant (Glasgow Warriors),
Ross Ford (Edinburgh),
Euan Murray (Worcester Warriors),
Richie Gray (Sale Sharks),
Jim Hamilton (Gloucester),
Rob Harley (Glasgow Warriors),
Kelly Brown (Saracens),
Johnnie Beattie (Montpellier).

Replacements: Dougie Hall (Glasgow Warriors)/Pat MacArthur (Glasgow Warriors), Moray Low (Glasgow Warriors), Geoff Cross (Edinburgh Rugby), Alastair Kellock (Glasgow Warriors), David Denton (Edinburgh Rugby), Henry Pyrgos (Glasgow Warriors), Duncan Weir (Glasgow Warriors), Max Evans (Castres).


Who should be on last chance saloon - Hamilton, Ford, Jackson and Lamont.


Concerned - Brown playing at 7 still


So how do you expect this to go. If italy play like they did at the weekend and our forwards play like they did, we will lose. It is in our hands to get ourselves our of this mess, but do we have the passion, defensive ability or even the still to do so?

Sorted

More pressure in defence meaning they kick more to our strike runners and our forwards stop acting like a bunch of pussies then we will win this game.

Beattie needs to take the ball a bit deeper meaning there'll be a lot of Italians sitting on their erchies on Saturday.

[RuggerRadge2611]

Who should be on last chance saloon - Hamilton, Ford, Jackson and Lamont.

Agreed on Hamilton. That is all.

Ford did more in 20 minutes than Denton, Hamilton and Murray at the breakdown combined. Forcing one crucial penalty when we were really under the cosh and he stablized the scrum a bit. In his brief cameo he played the best he has for a while. I still think MacArthur should get a crack but Ford did nothing wrong against England and looked keen to get involved in the area we were weakest.

Lamont isn't a centre, and he shouldn't be playing there. It's harsh to call it last chance saloon for him since he can't help being picked in a position we have better players for. He should be on the bench instead of the Gremlin and either Grove or Dunbar should be at 13.

Jackson did nothing wrong against England and again did better in the breakdown than Hamilton, Denton and Murray combined by forcing another penalty turnover.

For me people are being very harsh on some of these players. It angers me

[George Carlin]

Who should be on last chance saloon - Hamilton, Ford, Jackson and Lamont.

For me people are being very harsh on some of these players. It angers me

Can we officially call this RadgeRage?

[RuggerRadge2611]

Call it what you want man!

Players like Jackson, Ford and Lamont had nothing to do with our defeat at the weekend. The blame can be placed firmly in the hands of Denton, Hamilton and Murray who were either too slow at getting to the rucks or more concerned with standing out in the backline, swishing their hair around hoping to get a massive headline making carry and show boat.

We missed Rennie / Barclay big time against England since we got absolutely dicked at the breakdown.

Ford is also getting criticised despite coming on and working really hard at the rucks, clearing them out and winning crucial penalties. Even the ruck inspector was having a go!

[TJ1]

Call it what you want man!

Players like Jackson, Ford and Lamont had nothing to do with our defeat at the weekend. The blame can be placed firmly in the hands of Denton, Hamilton and Murray who were either too slow at getting to the rucks or more concerned with standing out in the backline, swishing their hair around hoping to get a massive headline making carry and show boat.

We missed Rennie / Barclay big time against England since we got absolutely dicked at the breakdown.

Ford is also getting criticised despite coming on and working really hard at the rucks, clearing them out and winning crucial penalties. Even the ruck inspector was having a go!

[R!skysports]

Who should be on last chance saloon - Hamilton, Ford, Jackson and Lamont.

Agreed on Hamilton. That is all.

Ford did more in 20 minutes than Denton, Hamilton and Murray at the breakdown combined. Forcing one crucial penalty when we were really under the cosh and he stablized the scrum a bit. In his brief cameo he played the best he has for a while. I still think MacArthur should get a crack but Ford did nothing wrong against England and looked keen to get involved in the area we were weakest.

Lamont isn't a centre, and he shouldn't be playing there. It's harsh to call it last chance saloon for him since he can't help being picked in a position we have better players for. He should be on the bench instead of the Gremlin and either Grove or Dunbar should be at 13.

Jackson did nothing wrong against England and again did better in the breakdown than Hamilton, Denton and Murray combined by forcing another penalty turnover.

For me people are being very harsh on some of these players. It angers me

Grrr - fair enough apart from Lamont.

If he is not a centre then he should not be picked. He is not good enough for wing any more (due to the young uns), so he should not be selected

Jacskon is in the door of the last drop cafe - and needs to prove himself in the next few games. If he does not improve when we have go forward ball, then he steps in the door. If he plays well, he carries on down the street - fair enough?

[R!skysports]

And, I would point out that last chance is a fair option - it is not discard them, of being harsh - but it is highlighting that these players need to prove themselves they can perform at the level we need.

That includes Ford who has been very poor over the last 12 months, and needs to show the form he has had before in more that 20 mins - I know he can, but will he

So I go back to my orignal point

"Who should be on last chance saloon - Hamilton, Ford, Jackson and Lamont"

[RuggerRadge2611]

How can you criticise Laidlaw or Jackson when their pack was on it's knees from the 1st minute?

We were not even close to competitive in open play. Our pack was physically dominated from the start and we were IMO lucky not to ship more points. It was our one saving grace that our backs had a good day at the office in defence that spared our blushes.

[R!skysports]

Not mentioned Laidlaw (yet)

Our Scrum held its own, so we did get good ball from them, but still Jackson struggled

One thing a good 10 needs to be able to do is adapt. They were blitzing us, so mix it up, stand deeper in the pocket, make them second guess, do something different - not the same all day

The only time he did, was a terrible grubber kick into the corner on first phase ball that had zero chance of working

he decision making is poor

Actually the more I talk the anger builds

[RDW]

I'm with Radge on this one!

[RDW]

Although I still think Jackson is mince...he just wasn't helped by his pack

[RuggerRadge2611]

Although I still think Jackson is mince...he just wasn't helped by his pack

He wasn't helped by anyone. Visser Maitland and Hogg have been praised by a lot of sources for their counter attacking and rightly so.

But none of them were on Jacksons shoulder in attack and giving him options. Jackson had a second, maybe 2 to take the ball make a judgement of whether to pass (most likely a hospital pass to his inside centre), kick... but where to or how, or take the ball in himself. For putting their stand off in this position the entire team should be criticised. Parks had much more comfortable games at 10 so our forwards should be ashamed of themselves.

The English pack were making a shambles of our ball and it was slower than the St Andrews Zimmer frame racing team. This Gave Robshaw, Wood et al all the time they needed to suss the play, rush up and cut off all our decision making. This blame lies with our forwards who were either unable or unwilling to get their hands dirty on Saturday.

Despite us having the ball the pressure England were piling on us in defence gave our backs no time. I said on another thread about Farrell getting all the praise from the media and how wrong it was since he was given an armchair ride. In the same way it is unfair to pin the blame on Jackson since he had no chance on Saturday.

[Pat_Mustard]

to be fair, along with a couple of others Jackson showed good quick hands in the buildup to Hogg's try.

Kevin Ferrie speaking to Johnson on the subject:

Players' futures on line as Johnson seeks balance
Kevin Ferrie
Senior Sports Writer
Wednesday 6 February 2013

For a generation of Scottish rugby players who have repeatedly failed to produce results, time and patience may finally be running out.

Changes to the team that lost to England at Twickenham may have been kept to a minimum for this weekend's match but, for all Scott Johnson's determination to avoid stating directly that it was time to deliver or else, a thread seemed to run through his comments yesterday strongly insinuating as much.

"We're trying to find the balance of when we change people in and out and now we've got a run of two weeks with a clearcut guide to the form and the future of others. So this week's important for the squad going forward," said the caretaker coach.

Asked if that meant places were on the line he responded: "I'm not threatening that. What I'm saying is we're in the tournament as of this weekend if we win. That would mean there's only one team on four points after this weekend.

"We've got a couple of home games so if we get that right we're in the tournament up there. That's how it is. After the weekend we might review it slightly different depending on results and performances. Performances are key here now."

It is darkly amusing, if not overly surprising, how willing coaches are to talk about hypothetical situations based on the premise of them winning the next game and how unwilling they are to consider the implications of failing to do so.

That is human nature, no doubt, but recent experience tells those assessing Scottish rugby with any trace of objectivity that it is necessary to consider such possibilities.

A man who likes a slogan, Johnson's mantra for selection in this campaign has been "form or future" and you cannot help but feel that the emphasis will shift heavily to the latter if the unthinkable happens.

An Australian head coach has, of course, attempted to do this before in Scotland with painful consequences for all concerned, but times were very different then.

A mere four years of failure had preceded Matt Williams' decision to tell some players who had a pretty decent conceit of themselves that they had no more to offer and must step aside to make way for younger men.

The policy was sound, but he did not really do his homework and its implementation was dreadful with some selection howlers and ridiculously exaggerated comments about the players' abilities contributing to getting him off to a start from which he never recovered.

Barring a brief injection of life when Frank Hadden took over two years later, and in doing so inspired performances that demonstrated how wrong Williams had been to write off his players' ability to tackle, that description could be seen as describing Scottish rugby as whole.

During the decade since Williams was appointed, Hadden's 2006 campaign stands alone as the only time Scotland have won more than one match in a Six Nations Championship.

Now, though, there is a growing awareness within the wider rugby community of just how serious matters are and it may be more readily accepted that players who have spent too long in a failing culture are close to the point of having to be discarded.

While Johnson vigorously defended Scotland's players when asked if they really are just not good enough, there was a telling remark as he observed: "If you want to be good at something you've got to make it more important."

Perhaps the most vivid indication of his thinking came when he was asked specifically about Jim Hamilton, the lock who, uniquely, even in this dismal age for Scottish rugby, stands poised to reach double figures for successive losses when in the starting line-up.

It has generally been perceived as a battle between him and Al Kellock, the 2011 World Cup captain who was dropped after a match of that tournament, to play alongside Richie Gray in the boiler-house, but their current coach instantly raised another option.

"We looked at everyone, Jim not in isolation," he said. "The fact is that we thought we had a plan going in for a couple of weeks . . . just the consistency. It's really over the quick turnaround to chop and change people. We lost a couple through injury and it was a balancing act.

"We've got lineout issues. I've got a lot of time for this young Grant Gilchrist who, if it wasn't for some issues last week, would have gone very close to making the initial 23. He couldn't train the first week we were in camp at all because he was in a [orthopaedic] boot. I've got a lot of time for him. He's an aggressive young fella and I think he's part of the future for this country."

Not that it is only older players whose performances are drawing increased scrutiny.

Ruaridh Jackson may now, with 16, be the second most-capped player in the back line behind Sean Lamont. He does not turn 24 until next week and yet his performance at Twickenham caused his selection to be specifically queried at yesterday's press conference.

"As a 10 myself we toyed with that [a change] but to be fair there's got to be a bit of consistency of why you did it," said Johnson. "Jacko's form was pretty good coming in. He was picked on form and Duncan [Weir] and Tom [Heathcote] haven't played a lot of rugby, so it's balancing that off too. We've got to find out if he can do it.

"We're going to see if he can hold the fort . . . but I'm not going to put the pressure on the kid and just label it there. I want to see some growth. His form warranted his selection. He's not totally happy with his performance but nor are other people who went on that pitch. The fact is there's something in him. We've got to find out."

A glowing endorsement it was not, but then very few could lay claim to having earned that last Saturday or in the months and, indeed, years that preceded it.

[tigertattie]

Italy are no slouches these days so do not expect anything other than a hard fought game.

We should win this game however. I think our backs will just be too much for the Italians. BUt this is dependant on our forwards. If we get involved in an arm wrestle with the Italians, oh dear, and if we do what the french did and stand off them and give them time to attack or rush up in defense, well, we all know what can happen there.

Our forwards need to front up and provide decent ball to our backline.

If I was a betting man, I'd be putting a tenner on Scotland to win by between 2 and 5 points

[RuggerRadge2611]

Our forwards need to front up and provide decent ball to our backline.

Question is will they?

I was gutted with how we let the English pack bully us like they did on Saturday.

We have manned up against some really tough packs in the past, the Boks, NZ and France and then we get fisted by England... bad times.

If Italy come into the game with the intent of turning us into road kill in the pack I expect us to ship a fair ammount of points to them.

[Tattie Scones RRN]

Jackson isn't up to this level. It won't matter how many games he gets or what experience he gains, he's just not naturally talented enough and cannot see what's in front of him.

Anyone can execute planned moves but not many can play to what's in front of them and change accordingly.

[captain carrantuohil]

Scotland now have two-thirds of a team that can be called international class without fear of contradiction, or basically the same sort of proportion as the 1984 and 1990 sides. Of course, you can't compare this lot with those great sides, but it shouldn't be beyond the bounds of possibility to do so. After all, the future Grand Slammers didn't do that much in 83 or 89 (apart from winning and drawing at Twickers, of course!).

What concerns me is a) the cohesion between all parts of the side. Those earlier teams gave the appearance of playing with, and for, each other, and b) the mental attitude. Here, the earlier sides are light years ahead. There was a real devil up front, with forwards like Deans, Milne, Jeffrey, Paxton, Leslie and the Calders to call on. In physical stature, the current mob lose nothing by comparison. The comparative absence of belief and mental hardness is palpable, however. Men like Cronin, Sole and Chris Gray made the absolute most of their physical gifts. At the moment, the Scottish pack are not doing so, and if they don't on Saturday, they will lose again. The backs won't be able to compensate sufficiently.

[funnyExiledScot]

Interesting stuff from Johnson at the press conference. He's basically said:

1. I picked Jackson based on form and he deserves to be there.

2. He deserves more than one game under the new regime to prove himself. If we drop Jackson then we'd have to drop half the team.

3. Crucially in my view, he's bothered to make the key point: if we drop Jackson then what reason have we to believe, given he's the form 10 and played the most rugby, that Weir or Heathcote will do any better, or perhaps more importantly, would have done any better in the circumstances at Twickenham.

I really cannot fathom the posters who hark on about last chance saloons without making a pressing case for the alternatives being an improvement (and to be clear GC, I'm not talking about you).

Why does Weir deserve to play 10 for Scotland instead of Jackson? Which performance have I missed this season to suggest he's a better option?

Likewise Heathcote. Which performance with Bath this season trumps Jackson's performances with Glasgow? Where's the example of his talents to suggest that unlike Jackson, he could have opened up England whilst being dry humped around the park by Robshaw and Wood?

My view on the pecking order is clear. Jackson starts, Heathcote on the bench, Weir 3rd choice. I'm pretty comfortable that is the correct option at the moment, based on form this season.

Clearly if Jackson gets good ball against Italy and screws up, and Heathcote comes off the bench and improves matters, there'll be good and hard evidence upon which to revisit the pecking order for the Wales and Italy games.

Sounds to me like Johnson's got this spot on. I'm no fan of Jackson, and most of his caps have come in situations where frankly he hasn't deserved to play, but this is his time and his chance. He's got a good backline around him and against Italy he ought to have enough ball.

[Brendan]

To be fair Scotland did ok going forward. It was the moment the player hit the ground that they had the trouble. There was plent of time were Scotland received the ball deep, made good yards (passing tacklers). But once that ball went to ground the england killed you. Same with the kicks, there was plenty were the kick and cahse by a player was good. But there was no follow up and so the english could break quickly or secue with ease.

If Scotland play like that with Italies forwards they will be in trouble aswell. With the game in Scotland and Ireland who ever wins the breakdown will win the game.

[Heuer27]

Jackson may not be the long term answer to the stand off problem that has plagued us for years but unless we give him a fair crack we will never know.
Defensively he played well at the weekend but struggled with a rampaging English back row. I'm not convinced that any other stand off in the world would have done much better under the circumstances. As others have said , he wasn't given many options by his team mates and was left exposed repeatedly. It's a big if but if the Scottish pack can turn up this weekend and provide a decent platform then I'm hopeful that Jackson will look a lot more comfortable.
We have to remember that he only has 14 caps and no experience around him, excluding Lamont ,who is not what I would regard as a strategist.

[funnyExiledScot]

Agree on the kick and chase, we've been guilty of hoofing the ball too often in the past without any form of chase at all, and we were better on Saturday, albeit that the chasers let England off the hook too easily a couple of times.

I think we probably kicked a bit too much on Saturday, but understandable given the pressure. Better to kick and chase well, than to get turned over behind the advantage line (which we did a few times as well).

I think we're better equipped for the Italy game, and the style of play Italy bring to the table. That's not to say they aren't dynamic and quick, they made some great breaks against France, but they rely more on pick and drives to generate momentum and they have more defensive weak links in the backs that hopefully we can exploit.

[townsendistarantino]

wow i was about to have a rant about the jackson slaters but FES has summed up the whole situation, i feel correctly.

another thing everyone bangs on about is combinations... yet most people are fast enough to ditch at least one of the half backs after just one game together... not really allowing much chance for combinations to grow there, but i think they are just itching to promote their favourites, an afflication that, in my experience filters down all grades of rugby in Scotland.

[Brendan]

To be fair if that knock-on hadn't of happened and the end it was a try under to posts so instead of it being a five pt finish, england score from the knock on and win by twenty pts difference. if Scotland had lost by five there would be alot less complaining about the Scotland performance. That last five mins has deflated Scoland and inflated England.

[captain carrantuohil]

Brendan, much better that it happened as it did. A five-point loss would have obscured the reality of the game, which is that for long periods of the match, Scotland were buried alive in the nitty-gritty areas of the game.

There is now little reason for the truth, that the tight forwards didn't do their job, to be hidden. This might not have been the case had the scoreline been given an unduly flattering sheen. I slightly wonder whether the Welsh coaching brains trust are allowing themselves to fall into that trap in the wake of the Ireland game.

[R!skysports]

I seem to be standing alone on this one

But in fairness, I would point out that I am not just judging this on one game

Jackson has played 16 times for Scotland, and I have not been impressed

(and looking back at comments from most, I am not alone in that)

So for me he has to really get his game on

And for the question of

"I really cannot fathom the posters who hark on about last chance saloons without making a pressing case for the alternatives being an improvement "


Well for me, if someone has 16 games and not done it, it is time to bring in others to gain experience - build for the future not stay with the same - which has been a failing for us for years - even if that means bringing in inexperienced players to blood them - this is a building time - how often has posters here boiled when we have not blooded new players, even if unproven


I still think Jackson should be given a chance, but for me it is coming time to put up or get out

[funnyExiledScot]

Risky - I'll try and put it another way.

Who do you think should start at 10 for Scotland against Italy and why? We know you don't like Jackson, so let's hear the positive case for an alternative.

[TJ1]

Weir needs to be getting gametime.
Then I would select him once he is back tot eh form of last year where he rightly kept Jackson sitting on the bench

[R!skysports]

FES - Jackson, as i have said he is on last chance. He needs to prove he is worth sticking with and after 16 games, he has used a lot of chances

If not I would play Weir and see how he goes - give him a run to develop and play more that 20 mins at a time.

I really do not care less if we lose as long as we look like we have a plan to develop (well of course I do, but you know what I mean).

I get fed up playing the same players who we know are not good enough, suddelnly expecting them to get better (M Evans anyone)

BTW I do not dislike Jackson, just want him to step up and think he is running out of chances

[Brendan]

As has been pointed out who would you but in that would do better.

It is better to be ok then bad and it is better to be bad then terrible. IF JAckson was in any other postion he would have been fine (ie not a flyhalf). Nowadays if the back line don't score its the Fly-halfs fault or at least the half backs.

Weir has been poor in the Rabo and HC so what hope does he have of being better at a higher level.

[Brendan]

i know its old and wasn't going to happen but looking at parks at connacht do you think he could of managed the game better, and kicked to touch at the right times.

you know if you're under presure he'll get you out usually.

[George Carlin]

First things first, welcome to Heuer27 and townsendistarantino (my new favourite poster name).

Secondly, those wishing to keep Jackson - what will be 'enough' for him to keep his place for Wales?

[RDW]

Wait a minute - are we seriously suggesting that we are relying on our backs to make up for our forwards??

[R!skysports]

Wait a minute - are we seriously suggesting that we are relying on our backs to make up for our forwards??

Certainly makes a change


In 3 years we will be relying on the pie sellers to make up for our players :-)

[Brendan]

how did scotland go from being a team that controlled postions and couldn't score to a team that scores half the time they went into the england 22 but had not posession.


At least when you have the ball you can get the scoring right. with out the ball in a way ye were luck to score 18 and almost 25pts if that intercept had been held.

I don't remember what Maitland was like defensively but Visser was poor.

What has changed with your forwards in the last year.

[RuggerRadge2611]

Weir needs to be getting gametime.
Then I would select him once he is back tot eh form of last year where he rightly kept Jackson sitting on the bench

Weir hasn't done anything to displace Jackson though. It's like the Nick De Luca argument. It's fair enough shouting about how guff the incumbents are but untill there are realistic replacements we all just have to put up with it.

Jackson was given no chance against England. It'll be interesting to see how Sexton gets on this weekend if the English pack are as menacing as they were last time.

With Brand Haskell starting I can see Sexton being under even more pressure.

If I was to start anyone instead of Jackson it would be Hunter or Heathcote. Heathcote played well for Scotland A and Hunter has been playing well for Edinburgh.

It's not a nice thought but despite who Johnson has picked Heathcote and Hunter have both played more rugby and have played better this season than Weir. Certainly if we are keeping Laidlaw at Scrumhalf (which I think is the right decision) we have no alternatives.

[Captain_Sensible]

Radge, there is no way Hunter has played more rugby than Weir this season. Hunter hasn't played since the game vs the Ospreys in Nov/Dec, whereas Weir has had quite a bit of time off the bench and starting since then.

[RuggerRadge2611]

It's not just the time played, its how well they have played.

The only game I have seen Weir play all season was against Munster and he was brutal.

Hunter on the otherhand was excellent against the Ospreys in the game you mention.

Weir was the form 10 last season but this season he hasn't been great.

It seems again we are sifting through the wreckage of a 6N loss looking for a stand off. Despite the incumbent one not doing anything wrong. Jackson deserves his chance against a team that weren't rampant in attack and ferocious in defence.

[captain carrantuohil]

The discussion about the 10 is surely a bit by the way, though?

Why still Hamilton? Why Murray, if he isn't going to dominate in the tight? Ford or MacArthur? A boot up the jacksie for Richie from management to wind him up?

More abrasive and more ugly, as well as more committed. If that happens, then whoever starts at 10 will likely enjoy the experience.

[RuggerRadge2611]

The discussion about the 10 is surely a bit by the way, though?

Why still Hamilton? Why Murray, if he isn't going to dominate in the tight? Ford or MacArthur? A boot up the jacksie for Richie from management to wind him up?

More abrasive and more ugly, as well as more committed. If that happens, then whoever starts at 10 will likely enjoy the experience.

+1

Murray, Hamilton and Denton are all lucky boys to get another chance. I'm a big fan of Denton, but Kelly should have pulled him over and said :

"Listen here pal, you aren't here to stand out on the backs and hope for a chance to showboat your carrying skills. These guys are ruining us at the breakdown and we need you in there to help us win the ball."


We really miss Barcs and Rennie.

[RDW]

I really am hoping Rennie's name will be on the Edinburgh team sheet for Munster on Friday.

[RuggerRadge2611]

I really am hoping Rennie's name will be on the Edinburgh team sheet for Munster on Friday.

Even if he is back I would be very reluctant to throw him into a test match against Heaslip, Healy Ryan, SOB and POM. Those guys generated a lot of scar tissue on Saturday and I would worry for Rennie if he were to return, that he might not be at a suitable level to deal with those big lads.

[RDW]

He'd have 2 weeks in a row before then if he did get back for this weekend though

[RuggerRadge2611]

I still think it would be a big ask. Ireland gave Wales a proper battering up front. Tipuric came on and turned the tide a wee bit but Ireland looked every bit as physical as England.

[funnyExiledScot]

If not I would play Weir and see how he goes - give him a run to develop and play more that 20 mins at a time.

But why?? Just to see whether he's as bad at international rugby as he has been in club rugby this season??

If it's just to "develop" him, why on earth attempt to do that in international rugby? Why don't we try and develop him into a consistent and decent player in club rugby first.

If it's just "to see what someone else can do" - why can't I have a crack at it?

Radge makes a fair point. Why Weir over Hunter, or even Leonard? Why not Gordon Ross, who is clearly outperforming Duncan Weir this season?

The best alternative is Tom Heathcote at present, which is why he ought to be on the bench in my opinion. But he shouldn't be ahead of Jackson.

GC asks a perfectly valid question though, what must Jackson do on Saturday to avoid being dropped? Answer is this. Impose some control on the game, inject some pace into the Scotland attck, vary the game, bring his attackers onto the ball as he has been doing for Glasgow this season and start to use his pretty decent distribution skills to good effect. In short, replicate his club form in a Scotland jersey. At least we're asking him to do something he's been able to do fairly recently, unlike Duncan Weir, where we're asking him to do something in a Scotland jersey that he hasn't really been able to do in a club jersey this season. That doesn't sound like a smart idea.

If Jackson gets good ball and does nothing with it, I'll be perfectly happy to see Heathcote given a shot this 6 Nations.

The form of Euan Murray is a more pressing question really than Jackson, particularly for those who don't really care about the alternatives. Surely his recent performances are more worthy of our vitriol. His scrummaging is fairly ineffective and he's a passenger in the loose.

[funnyExiledScot]

He'd have 2 weeks in a row before then if he did get back for this weekend though

Agree - it's Munster on Friday and then Cardiff at Murrayfield the following week. If he can play both games plus participate in Scotland training for a week thereafter, I'm fairly confident he'll be a better openside flanker than either Kelly Brown or Rob Harley....

I don't think we want to face Tipuric or SOB (or Chris Henry) without a proper openside if we can possibly avoid it.

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