Scotland vs Italy - time to get serious - build up thread

[R!skysports]

First topic message reminder :

Well we have had our first kick in the teeth for 2013, with a terrible performance against a strong England. Can we turn it around in time for Italy. Only two changes, both forced by injury. If this a good thing, or a sign of managers without a clue

Team for Saturday

Scotland team to play Italy:
Stuart Hogg (Glasgow Warriors);
Sean Maitland (Glasgow Warriors),
Sean Lamont (Glasgow Warriors),
Matt Scott (Edinburgh),
Tim Visser (Edinburgh);
Ruaridh Jackson (Glasgow Warriors),
Greig Laidlaw (Edinburgh);
Ryan Grant (Glasgow Warriors),
Ross Ford (Edinburgh),
Euan Murray (Worcester Warriors),
Richie Gray (Sale Sharks),
Jim Hamilton (Gloucester),
Rob Harley (Glasgow Warriors),
Kelly Brown (Saracens),
Johnnie Beattie (Montpellier).

Replacements: Dougie Hall (Glasgow Warriors)/Pat MacArthur (Glasgow Warriors), Moray Low (Glasgow Warriors), Geoff Cross (Edinburgh Rugby), Alastair Kellock (Glasgow Warriors), David Denton (Edinburgh Rugby), Henry Pyrgos (Glasgow Warriors), Duncan Weir (Glasgow Warriors), Max Evans (Castres).


Who should be on last chance saloon - Hamilton, Ford, Jackson and Lamont.


Concerned - Brown playing at 7 still


So how do you expect this to go. If italy play like they did at the weekend, we will lose. It is in our hands to get ourselves our of this mess, but do we have the passion, defensive ability or even the still to do so?


Current Italy Squad

15-Andrea Masi,
14-Giovanbattista Venditti,
13-Tommaso Benvenuti,
12-Gonzalo Canale,
11-Luke McLean,
10-Luciano Orquera,
9-Tobias Botes;
1-Andrea Lo Cicero,
2-Leonardo Ghiraldini,
3-Martin Castrogiovanni,
4-Quintin Geldenhuys,
5-Francesco Minto,
6-Alessandro Zanni,
7-Simone Favaro,
8-Sergio Parisse (capt)

Replacements: 16-Davide Giazzon, 17-Alberto De Marchi, 18-Lorenzo Cittadini, 19-Antonio Pavanello, 20-Paul Derbyshire, 21-Kris Burton, 22-Gonzalo Garcia

[Tramptastic]

On a Gray note (ha) I was pleased to see Gray was doing more of the basics i.e. not hanging around in the backline looking for the glory run, which was pleasant to see, hitting rucks and making tackles like a proper second row followed by some aggression when thumping Gori (sp?) into touch

[George Carlin]

There was a lot that was good about today.

The real difference was that the front 5 showed up and played like they meant it and the difference was obvious. Haven't seen the stats yet but the line out was good and we absolutely held them tight in the scrums.

Harley did exactly what he was supposed to do and did it well. We kept the defence high energy for a full 80 and that's to our credit.

Great individual performances too - Maitland's offload out of heavy traffic for Scott was the pass of the day for me - stunning, natural footballing ability. For what it's worth, I really don't think that the pass was forward for the other Scott try.

[reallybored]

Frustrating in some respects, that was about attitude and desire rather than than skill.

Still, a great result and fantastic to see us being cylinical when we had opportunities, our defence was like a quagmire and the Italians couldn't get through.

Laidlaw controlled the game wonderfully and his goal kicking kept the scoreboard ticking over.

Thought Ford, Murray, Hamilton and Lamont answered their critics today, all four put in a good shifts in the loose and justified their inclusion.

Hogg took his try very well and had a very solid game 70 minutes, he's a genuine game-changer and must be on Gatland's radar.

Scott had his best game for Scotland; took his try well, almost got a couple more and his defensive positioning caused Italy problems.

Harley was the catalyst up front and did exactly what he does for Glasgow; make a nuisance of himself, get on stray balls, tackle for 80 minutes and run a lot. Brown had a great game but if Rennie was fit it'd be an interesting debate.

The scrum was very pleasing and the line-out, other than one or two, was solid plus we stole one against the head.

Enjoy the win but they've got to keep the intensity up in every match, if we don't we'll lose.

[Gibson]

Well played Scotland. Needed that bad. Hogg was excellent. Lions chances increasing. Great to see them scoring tries at last. 6 in 2 games. Johnson is having the desired effect.

Italy , having had a massive amount of possession, gave away 3 of those tries. But they are sticking to their attacking creed and are improving despite that loss. They lost their stucture from last week. But they will have learned from that game. They shouldnt be too downhearted.

Like Treviso, no one wants them at home now. Scotland will be a harder nut to crack at Murrayfield after that. All good.

This 6-N is settling down nicely.

Now for France v Wales. Man I love the 6-N.

[Imperialbigdave]

Yep, that was good. The comprehensive performance we were talking about with numbers during the week.

Hamilton, Murray and Jackson all answered the questions raised last week. Harley had a brilliant first start, ill admit im not a big fan of his, but he did exactly what he says on the tin, so fair play to him.

The more our back 3 score, the more confidence the team will have in them and the more well start using them. Positive feedback in action.

Also good to see not many instances of forwards hanging out in the backline. More of that please.

Matt Scott really shouldve had a brace, ive seen far "flatter" passes given than that.

[bsando]

Yeah that "forward pass" was a feicking joke! No way that was forward pass.

[Imperialbigdave]

Also, a shame Junior tripped up at the back of that scrum as it would have been a good reward to have a clean sheet.

[MacKnocked-on]

Generally great performance by Scotland, more of this please.

[tigertattie]

For me the difference is that the players now genuinely believe in each other. They know maitland, hogg, visser, Scott are capable of getting past the gain line so they run a support line off their shoulder.

Before, someone would make an unexpected break but have no support. We are going in the right direction but there is a long long way to go.

No offence to Italy but they were not the team they were last week.

Scotland need to play like that, and win, against a better team like Ireland before I hop on any bandwagons.

[MacKnocked-on]

If we can win one more of our remaining games we will have made real progress, Ireland probably too strong but watching France and Wales neither of them look very good so we can certainly hope to win against one of those.
In fact the way they're playing France might need to beat us to avoid the wooden spoon as surely England and Ireland will fancy beating them.

[bsando]

Yeah I think France will definitely lose vs England and I doubt they'll beat Ireland. Selection is Frances problem I think. They need to ditch michalak and a few others, then they might rejuvenate for final match vs Scotland.

But on other hand, I think if Scotland can improve over this tournament and go on to win next two home games. They have to keep improving though.

So ridiculous, Moore talking about North try for France, the only good thing he did all game really and he's totally bigging him up, saying he is a definite for the Lions. Visser and Maitland have done far more on the wing than North so far this tournament. I really think our back three have potential to make things very awkward for Gatland, especially if they totally outplay Wales at Murrayfield. But still a lot to be done before that may happen. Scotland have to keep improving!

[TJ1]

Scotland are in the top half of the table tonight

[mystiroakey]

well now scotland..

the only decent team on display today!

[RDW]

First of all - !

Read through some of the posts during the game and a lot of people saying Scotland had luck with the bounce of the ball sometimes and were lucky not to get an earlier yellow - all I can say to that is I really don't give a crap! For so long now we've been regularly unlucky and on the wrong side of refs so it's about time we get some luck.

Positives

We won the contact area, so we own the game - simples

The forwards massively fronted up after last week

We scored 4 tries!!!

Matt Scott had a standout game - nailed on the 12 shirt and becoming a key player for Scotland now

Our backs scored a try from first phase - when did we last do that??

Thank God Maitland chose Scotland

What a back 3 we now have - Visser still lacked in other areas but took his try very well

Laidlaw's goal kicking was superb - some tricky kicks. Thought he had a good all-round game too

Stuart Hogg - no more needs to be said!

Brown and Harley had a good game - think Harley made a big difference


Negatives

Italy got far too much quick ball - other teams will crucify us if we allow them to do that

Still not overly convinced by Beattie - was hard to see how much dirty work he was doing but, other than that one run last week, he's not been the ball carrying menace we were needing from him

That's about it!

[Duty281]

Well done Scotland. Totally destroyed Italy, didn't give them a chance.

[IanBru]

Just back from Murrayfield - what a bloody performance!!

There were enough glimmers last week that we knew if Scotland did the basics right, more attractive rugby would be the result, and we saw it today. The forwards were far more accurate at the breakdown, played the ref when needed, and we had good line-speed.

Harley was brilliant - there are some players who don't look out of their depth, no matter what level of rugby you present them with (Hogg, North and Farrell are others), and the Ginger Tackle Monster did exactly what he was asked to. He wasn't my man of the match, but his stats were good, and will only get better.

In the backs, there was no standout performer, but only because they were consistently excellent. Laidlaw was solid, even when the scrum creaked late on. Jackson kicked will, for the most part, and showed what can happen when a Scottish stand off actually draws his man before passing. It helps when you Visser outside you, and Tim showed that he is more than just a pair of legs (it feels as wrong to write that as it probably sounds...) - good awareness and strength to turn his defender and stretch for the try.

Matt Scott can feel hard done by to be denied the MOTM award - within a hair's breadth of a hat-trick (hats off to Botes for his excellent covering tackle, and a set-square to Jaco Peyper to teach him what a forward pass is), but he showed that with a talented 12, the pieces are finally coming together for a complete Scotland side that can challenge for things. Morrison? Henderson? Dewey?? We have Matt Scott now.

Maitland is an enabler. He makes things happen. Great offload for Scott's try, even better one for Scott's second. It was so good, the ref assumed it must have been forward, when it wasn't. Could have bagged a try at the very end if that ball had bounced better, but them's the breaks.

Finally, Mr Hogg of Hawick. I can't think of anything else to say, except that he is the most talented Scottish player in a generation, and the best fullback in the Northern Hemisphere on current form. If he doesn't tour, Gatland needs to be committed to an institution far away from people.

We need to hold on to ourselves though. Italy simply weren't as good as last week, and we fed off their mistakes to a large extent. I'm not one to say that Italy are a one- or two-man team, but when Parisse and Orquera were misfiring you could see the effect it had on the Italian team as a whole.

Just like the game against Australia in 2009 and Ireland in 2010, we have to push on from here. Otherwise, this result means nothing more than keeping us off the bottom of the table.

[kiakahaaotearoa]

Italy have yet to learn how to travel and play with the same aplomb as they do at home. The only place where they have won away is Scotland from my understanding so Scotland can be very pleased with today's effort. The Italians would have been brimming with confidence from their previous effort and Scotland seemed to address the main problem they had against England: their pack and the breakdown. They dominated Italy up front and got vital possession.

So a pleasing effort from Scotland with tries scored but their defence and notably their forwards putting in a much improved effort. There is still much to work on, but the forwards can learn from this experience that when you do the work up front, you make life infinitely easier for the team as a whole. Now to put that into practice against the other teams and set their sights higher than avoid the wooden spoon.

[RDW]

Set up a player ratings thread if anyone wants to chip in

[allyt2k]

Never noticed but does anyone know if Pat came on for his first cap?

[majesticimperialman]

Only watched the first half, Scotland didn't play too bad to be honest. I thought Italy started well in the first half. Scotland and it did not play too bad to be honest.

[IanBru]

Never noticed but does anyone know if Pat came on for his first cap?

I saw him get his shell-suit off and get in the pitch-side box where transfers are made, but I don't think he actually went on. Shame for him, but his time will definitely come.

[Taffineastbourne]

Ianbru,might I signpost a fellow by the name of Halfpenny ,a young 15 who has strung together a number of very classy performances at International level over a few years.
A couple of eye-catching games in a poor Scottish side on the up and up shouldn't cloud your judgement.Your lad shows promise.Let's see how he kicks on before going overboard,eh?

[allyt2k]

Never noticed but does anyone know if Pat came on for his first cap?

I saw him get his shell-suit off and get in the pitch-side box where transfers are made, but I don't think he actually went on. Shame for him, but his time will definitely come.

That's a shame would have been nice for him to get his first cap

[IanBru]

Ianbru,might I signpost a fellow by the name of Halfpenny ,a young 15 who has strung together a number of very classy performances at International level over a few years.
A couple of eye-catching games in a poor Scottish side on the up and up shouldn't cloud your judgement.Your lad shows promise.Let's see how he kicks on before going overboard,eh?

You see that little bit in my post where I say 'on current form'? Well read that bit. Then read it again. Then put it on a post-it note and place it in the middle of your TV screen. Then stare at your TV for an hour whilst listening to Ride of the Valkyries.

[Taffineastbourne]

Ianbru,might I signpost a fellow by the name of Halfpenny ,a young 15 who has strung together a number of very classy performances at International level over a few years.
A couple of eye-catching games in a poor Scottish side on the up and up shouldn't cloud your judgement.Your lad shows promise.Let's see how he kicks on before going overboard,eh?

You see that little bit in my post where I say 'on current form'? Well read that bit. Then read it again. Then put it on a post-it note and place it in the middle of your TV screen. Then stare at your TV for an hour whilst listening to Ride of the Valkyries.

Any idea who was Man of the Match in the France v Wales game?I know that you are a tad excited but how current do you want your form to be?

[RDW]

The lions tend to take more than one fullback..

[123456789]

Ianbru,might I signpost a fellow by the name of Halfpenny ,a young 15 who has strung together a number of very classy performances at International level over a few years.
A couple of eye-catching games in a poor Scottish side on the up and up shouldn't cloud your judgement.Your lad shows promise.Let's see how he kicks on before going overboard,eh?

You see that little bit in my post where I say 'on current form'? Well read that bit. Then read it again. Then put it on a post-it note and place it in the middle of your TV screen. Then stare at your TV for an hour whilst listening to Ride of the Valkyries.

Any idea who was Man of the Match in the France v Wales game?I know that you are a tad excited but how current do you want your form to be?

Hogg has scored two long distant tries in two games, he's solid under the high ball and can kick it miles. Both are very good players, before the championship I'd have said that it was a two horse race between Kearney and Halfpenny with Foden not too far behind. Now I think it's very close between Kearney, Hogg, and Halfpenny, personally I'd go for Hogg because of his pace and sidestepping ability although Halfpenny's goalkicking is as fantastic asset and Kearney's defence is probably the best, it will be interesting to see how the rest of the championship pans out.

[Taffineastbourne]

Ian would have Hogg as the best fullback in the NH on current form!I was merely attempting to ground him.Hyperbole is the stuff of kiddy winks.
It is good that Gatland has cover in a number of positions and the more players that put their hands up the better..

[IanBru]

Ian would have Hogg as the best fullback in the NH on current form!

That is exactly what I said, and exactly what I meant, which is to say that Hogg is playing better than Goode, Foden, Kearney, Dulin, Fall, Masi, Byrne and Halfpenny.

I know that you are a tad excited but how current do you want your form to be?

Well that's a tough one. Some say that current form is the last game played, which is surely ridiculous. I'd be more open minded and suggest that performances within the tournament currently being played constitutes 'current form'.

Still, I tell you what isn't current form - this:

a young 15 who has strung together a number of very classy performances at International level over a few years.

That is the opposite of current form. That is anti-current. That is, in fact, history.

[MacKnocked-on]

Scotland have just beaten England in the US sevens to qualify for the quarter finals of the main tournament for the second week in a row, great day for Scottish rugby (ignoring Edinburgh's efforts of course).

[Guest]

Fans in 'I prefer my own country's fullback' shocker! Funnily enough some Irish posters have been calling for Kearney, and some English for Goode. There's a trend there somewhere...

[wales606]

Fans in 'I prefer my own country's fullback' shocker! Funnily enough some Irish posters have been calling for Kearney, and some English for Goode. There's a trend there somewhere...

I don't think many are calling for Goode, his defence is dire and I know a lot of England fans who would rather see Foden or Brown at FB - especially since they don't need the extra playmaker with 36 in midfield

[Guest]

OK then, England fans in 'Brown or Foden for the Lions rather than Kearney, Hogg or Halfpenny' shocker.

[ChequeredJersey]

On form, it's got to be Halfpenny. Hogg could be a bolter though

[Taffineastbourne]

Ian would have Hogg as the best fullback in the NH on current form!

That is exactly what I said, and exactly what I meant, which is to say that Hogg is playing better than Goode, Foden, Kearney, Dulin, Fall, Masi, Byrne and Halfpenny.

I know that you are a tad excited but how current do you want your form to be?

Well that's a tough one. Some say that current form is the last game played, which is surely ridiculous. I'd be more open minded and suggest that performances within the tournament currently being played constitutes 'current form'.

Still, I tell you what isn't current form - this:

a young 15 who has strung together a number of very classy performances at International level over a few years.

That is the opposite of current form. That is anti-current. That is, in fact, history.

Sorry to pop your balloon but if the classy performances are ongoing and he continues to get MoM awards it would appear pretty valid.Give it some thought.

[funnyExiledScot]

Loved it! Great performance, and so nice to see our backs in amongst the tries at Murrayfield, the Scott try off first phase was particularly pleasing.

I thought the trio that were under scrutiny after Twickenham, Murray, Hamilton and Jackson all played well, and Harley had a great debut just doing what he does best - tackling and rucking non-stop.

The only downside is perhaps the same upside we had last week. Last week we were up against a form side playing very well. This time round we put Italy under a lot of pressure, however they buckled under it in a way that Wales or Ireland probably won't. Still, the defence and contact areas were excellent today and it was through those areas that we caused them problems and forced the errors. What is clear is that this Scotland side can put away chances. Sure, Scott could have had three (I don't blame him for getting run down by Botes, who had both the angle and the advantage of not starting with a standing start), but we're so much more dangerous now than we have been in recent seasons. Teams are going to have to start thinking about how they play us, and that's been a while coming.

On the Halfpenny vs Hogg debate, Halfpenny has been the more consistent performer for longer, plus has the goal kicking to his bow. He'll go. The question then is whether Hogg gets in ahead of Goode, Kearney, Brown or Foden. Lots of excellent options. All I'll say is so far so good in terms of this 6 Nations. Let's be making those judgements at the end of the tournament.

[ChequeredJersey]

IanBru, when was the last time Halfpenny wasn't in the top 3 Welsh players on the pitch? I think it's fair to say he has been on form for seasons now

[wales606]

IanBru, when was the last time Halfpenny wasn't in the top 3 Welsh players on the pitch? I think it's fair to say he has been on form for seasons now

I actually just tried to think of the answer to that...I really can't remember...

Must have been the World Cup when he wasn't playing FB - or maybe the Ireland 1/4final?

[George Carlin]

Wee Pat didn't actually get onto the field this time, which is a shame:
http://www.rbs6nations.com/en/matchcentre/7991.php?section=lineups&fixid=153767

He's hoping he gets his shot against our paddy brethren.

Kind of sad that some posters apparently want to use this thread to talk about their own players. Very strange.

[allyt2k]

Question mark over Hogg for me going on the lions tour would be how he performs with different players around him, for me Hogg and Maitland have combined really really well at Glasgow and with Scotland, but is Hogg experienced enough to be thrown in the lions team and expect the unexpected.

[funnyExiledScot]

I felt MacArthur probably should have come on with Kellock - shame he didn't get on. He was stripped down standing at the side for about 10 minutes.

I'm sure his chance will come, just a shame he couldn't start with a win at home.

Ford did well today. Better darts, and influential around the park. Well need him against Rory Best.

[Taffineastbourne]

Wee Pat didn't actually get onto the field this time, which is a shame:
http://www.rbs6nations.com/en/matchcentre/7991.php?section=lineups&fixid=153767

He's hoping he gets his shot against our paddy brethren.

Kind of sad that some posters apparently want to use this thread to talk about their own players. Very strange.

My bad!Sorry but could not let an outrageous comment go unchallenged.Enjoy your victory,you get less than us!

[Barney McGrew did it]

Calm down - Hogg will need to show a lot more than that to be a Lion. His try looked good but let’s analyse it. He completely committed to the ball to Benvenuti (or the man himself), Orquera had simply to make the dummy pass and run to the try line unopposed (or even delay the pass to flat foot Hogg). Hogg then steps the slowest man in 6N rugby, fatty Castro, and kept running. He showed pace to outrun a couple of the Italian forwards. He took his chance well – but an automatic Lion this makes him not. Let’s face it if scoring a try against Italy made you a Lion, Visser would be travelling. And tbh Italy are only marginally better than France.

[funnyExiledScot]

He's a contender because of his performances over two seasons, not because of one interception, obviously.

It's too early to make any Lions judgements. This is week two. He's a contender, and so far his performances have put him in a good place. Still a few rounds to go, his head to heads with Kearney and Halfpenny will be interesting.

[IanBru]

Taffineastbourne, if you're a Halfpenny fan, that's cool. I am too. He has been a consistently good (and often excellent) performer for Wales, and I think he should definitely tour.

The question I would pose (and I suspect our answer would differ, but again I don't have a problem with that!) is whether you think that Halfpenny is playing better than Hogg at the moment. If you side with Halfpenny, again, that's you're right. However, I don't think that it is particularly outrageous to argue that Hogg is playing better than Halfpenny.

The reason I queried your claim of Halfpenny's achievements over the last few years (achievements I would happily acknowledge and celebrate) is that they are entirely irrelevant to this discussion. If we're debating who is playing better in the last few games (which is what we're doing), anything that happened before that doesn't matter.

On the question of Hogg/Halfpenny/Foden/Kearney/JPR/Hastings/Big Bird, I agree that the competition is very very close. Any one of them could put in a blinder of a performance and totally reshuffle the assessment.

[ChequeredJersey]

I could see Hogg going as a bolter, FB very competitive area but if he shines against Wales and Ireland I could see him making the 23. I think Scott looks like a talent too, even before his try today. He was pretty good against NZ too as I recall.

Scotland could see Hogg, Visser, Scott, Laidlaw, Beattie, Brown, Gray and Grant as potential tourists. Denton and Rennie might still have time to play into contention too. Funnily enough, I'm not sure i'd actually start any Scots for the Lions right now but they could make a pretty good entire bench there!

[Taffineastbourne]

Taffineastbourne, if you're a Halfpenny fan, that's cool. I am too. He has been a consistently good (and often excellent) performer for Wales, and I think he should definitely tour.

The question I would pose (and I suspect our answer would differ, but again I don't have a problem with that!) is whether you think that Halfpenny is playing better than Hogg at the moment. If you side with Halfpenny, again, that's you're right. However, I don't think that it is particularly outrageous to argue that Hogg is playing better than Halfpenny.

The reason I queried your claim of Halfpenny's achievements over the last few years (achievements I would happily acknowledge and celebrate) is that they are entirely irrelevant to this discussion. If we're debating who is playing better in the last few games (which is what we're doing), anything that happened before that doesn't matter.

On the question of Hogg/Halfpenny/Foden/Kearney/JPR/Hastings/Big Bird, I agree that the competition is very very close. Any one of them could put in a blinder of a performance and totally reshuffle the assessment.

You claim that Hogg is the best Full Back in the NH which I find laughable.Halfpenny was MoM today against France and has played at a similar level for 2/3 years.
Hogg has played a couple of good Internationals.Who do you seriously think has the better credentials?
Using your logic Coombs who has had two good games for Wales as a stand in is the best second row in theNH!
I would prefer Halfpenny and Kearney ahead of Hogg as they have maintained careers at the top level over a period of time.

[ChequeredJersey]

Hard to judge whose playing better ATM, Bru, until they both play te same teams or each other. Both have been the best FB on the pitch in both 6N matches so far

[Solid8]

I'm sorry but the fact that Halfpenny was named MoM today has no bearing whatsoever, both teams were playing pedestrian rugby designed not to lose, it was pretty dire.

[Solid8]

I'm sorry but the fact that Halfpenny was named MoM today has no bearing whatsoever, both teams were playing pedestrian rugby designed not to lose, it was pretty dire.

[Sponsored content]