Ireland 10 vs Scotland

First topic message reminder :

Surely we can't persist with ROG if Sexton doesn't make it.

More than anything it isn't fair on ROG himself... he has had it and TBH should have (internationally) retired after WC 2011 as planned. His place kicking is his only remaining string to his originally short bow.

One or two alternatives need to get time in the side as Jonny isn't invincible, and i would say better late than never.

Madigan has been going well for Leinster, is a prodigious attacking talent with an excellent running and passing game with his kicking catching up. His percentage from the tee is fairly good this season ~80%

Keatley has IMO outperformed ROG at Munster this season, has been is good form from the tee... but does not seem to be high on Deccies list of candidates and seems unlikely to make 1st choice

Jackson seems to be above the two Ians in Deccies considerations, and whilst on his day possesses a very good all round game has been lacking consistency kicking from hand and tee.

Personally I would pick Madigan with Jackson on the Bench - nothing ventured...

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

Sin é wrote:

asoreleftshoulder wrote:The sad thing is that even when Heislip has a mare the same old faces will want him to play against France because it's too big a game to throw in a young lad.

Fixed that for you.

Realistically tho, Sin, who's the alternative to Heaslip, your only recently appointed captain - totally agreed he's not been tearing up trees, but Kidney is a bit trapped by this one to be fair?

Similar level of 'trapping' I'd say between Heaslip and ROG with regard to viable options. Sean O'Brien & Peter O'Mahony are viable options for Heaslip (and James Coughlan is definately a better 8 than Heislip).

Too many flaws to the games of Madigan, Keatley & Jackson.

asoreleftshoulder wrote:Sin,I've told you already don't bother replying to me as I can't see your posts unless someone quotes you,I have no interest in interacting with a boorish bluffer like yourself who thinks that by shouting longer and louder than everyone else you automatically win the debate.

You think I reply to your post because I want to get a response from you

On the debate between Sexton and Jackson;

I don't understand why its so hard on here to advocate the merits of one player without denigrating another- I'll try to frame this well. Sexton was behind Contepomi for sure, but there were times when Contepomi was starting when I thought Sexton wasn't going to make it. I remember one Ireland A game when he was younger, maybe slightly older than Jackson is now, where he had a shocker. His kicking from hand was all over the place and he couldn't do one thing right. That was around the time Sexton was sent back to St. Marys.

Now, I was writing him off. Now in a triumphalist way on the old 606 or anything. I was more sad that I thought he could have challenged ROG but it looked like he didn't have the right stuff. But it was then, right then at his lowest point, he showed the right stuff because that was his bottom and since then his career has gone up and up! I could see he had talent, everyone could see that. When I thought he wasn't going to make it I suppose I was questioning his character. He's shown spades of the stuff since then.

Now Jackson displaced Humphreys, who was playing poorly and has done well after a very shaky experience in the Heineken Cup Final. I think in the case of character it demostrates Paddys own reserves of the stuff. I was very struck by reports after the game of this young man- of this twenty year old 10 who's just played the biggest game of his life and been pulled from the fray because he wasn't handling it remember!- walking out of the dressing room with perfect cool to answer the journalists questions. That shows character. The kind of character Sexton had when he pulled himself up by the bootstraps to displace Contepomi and take on the mantle of the best 10 in Europe. The kind of character ROG has shown having nailed so many pressure kicks over the years. I think the lad has that mental strength, which is half the battle.

Problem is, in Ireland we tend to think wanting something badly enough- showing fire and passion and character- is enough to take it. It's our great weakness as a nation, our great achilles heel. God bless us, we could have been World Champions before now if it were true. Nope! Tactics, skill, preparation, fitness, technique- passion and character and fire in the belly will get you some way in this game but its not enough to land a trophy. I think thats at the heart of whats happening with ROG. People have seen him pull teams out of the mire in pressure situations so many times, those of us who deify character and passion almost refuse to believe he can't do it anymore. The Irish are very sentimental people, which is why I feel our teams perform better under foreign coaches who never allow sentiment to occlude their clear view of what it takes to win; consciously or subconsciously.

The truth is, I expect Jackson to win at least 50 caps for Ireland. But I feel despite his clear reserves of character there are elements of his game which he still needs to work on and he has weaknesses that can be exploited. On the other hand, ROG should have stopped at least 10 caps ago. Neither of them are in great fettle to start this match. Neither of them are in great form and have clouds hanging over them.

The sentimental fan will say ""ROG should start, after so many times he's saved us whats to say he can't do it again? If we start Jackson we could lose! He's just too young! Who do ye want there if it comes down to a last second drop goal chance?"


The logical fan will say;

a) if Jackson starts, plays badly and we lose he learns from the game and grows as a player and a man. He has the character to bounce back from the savaging he'll take from the sentimental fans, he showed that after the Heineken Cup final.
b) if Jackson starts, plays badly and we win he learns from the game and grows as a player and a man, plus we still got the win.
c) if Jackson plays well and we lose, we lost but there are bright green shoots for the future
d) if Jackson plays well and we win, the call is totally validated.

Make your choice. Sentiment or logic. Now tell me I'm speaking nonsense

I think most Irish fans will go for Logiment Notch

Logiment

I like that. See I'm logimental. Declan Kidney, he's sentical. It's no wonder I wonder about him!

We're actually at HalfWay Diner somewhere in the Mojave desert right now in terms of what Notch refers to as the balancing act between professional readiness - both in terms of player ability and coaching preparedness - and that other more earthy and amatuerish quality of fire and passion.

During the game against England, I didn't see a whole lot of either quality on display. Rory being the shining bright light of difference in the passion department. THAT is what an Irish International looked like in the past and that is what so many of them are lacking at present.

You don't need a balance of both though - you need both shooting high calibre bullets at the opposition .... so that in the moments when your skill lets you down, you passion moves you forward; so that when your passion is going nowhere, you clinical skills can be used to inch yourself up field using boring technique. But both operatng throughout each game, not one mode for one game and one for another.

This present Irish set up so often sees the bottom fall out of their technical qualities, and when that happens there seems to be so little of the ancient old talent that Irish sides so often possessed in bucket loads...sheer aggressive, defiant energy.

A lesser Irish side in technical ability would not have lost that game against England. The rabid dog would have kicked in and they'd have fought themselves out of the corner they themselves fell back into - playing vicious rugby btw, not stamping and fist fighting

No knocking of Sexton intended.

My point is a simple one Sexton didn't really show his worth till he was 24.

Jackson is 3 years away from that - if he continues to develop he will be a fine player.

I maintain the post claiming he wasn'tr going to make it was a load of bollo - from a usually knowledgable poster too

Great post Fly

I often feel Kidneys Ireland reflect the personality of the coach in interviews. Earnest and hard-working- but where's the nastiness in his team? Where's the aggression? Where's the bit of being a b*st*rd you need to reach the top? Whenever we showed that, only Cian Healy did it and he didn't channel it properly.

Again, geoff- not taking a shot

Also to claim Contepomi was keeping Sexton out of the side in 2005-2006 and 2006-2007 (the years he went from 20 to 22) is being economical with the truth.

Christian Warner was the back up in those years and got far more game time than Sexton. Sextom was third choice at Leinster on his 21st birthday, where Jackson is now, not 2nd choice.

I don't understand people shouting about Sexton being behind Contempomi. What's that got to do with the price of fish?

No-one's blaming Sexton for his lack of gametime at Leinster at 21. Or criticising him for it, Simply referring to it - it's a fact. Do you think if we'd seen Sexton assume the same mantle Jackosn has - first choice flyhalf - at the same tender age, he would have looked significantly better? I don't, myself. And so it's hard to tell if Jackson may improve to a similar level (please Holy Jebus).

That's the crux of the matter, as I read it. People are being massively over-defensive, in my opinion.

Anyway, here's hoping Madigan is #10 in two weeks time. Or Keatley.

Also, I have a sneaking suspicion along the same lines as Rodders - I think Pienaar takes too much on, and Jackson flourishes more outside Marshall or Heaney. it's something that's gnawed at me for a wee while now.

Pienaar was brought in to take "too much on" as you say. David Humphreys prioritised the signing of a 9 over a 10 at least in part because he believes that 9 is the most important position on the rugby pitch. There is a vision there that pre-dates Anscombe of a team built around a great scrum-half.

Problem is- how does Jackson go from a team where most of the burden of directing things falls on the 9 to a team where that burden still falls almost exclusively on the 10? Problem that dogs the IRFU is the right hand doesn't know what the left hand os down. Truth is, I wouldn't change it because I don't trust the IRFU to make the right call in setting a tactical template for the provinces based on the last eight years of coaching for the Irish national team. That the provinces have had license to come up with their own gameplans and coaches allowed to leave their own impression on their teams has been liberating and useful for them, their players and is the root of much of our provincial success. I can't back the IRFU, because they will model the part that is working after the part that isn't! Shoite trickles down.

Personally I think this is another failing of the national team. I think Humph is right. I think 9 and 10 are equal partners at least now in test rugby and Ireland still a team that places all the emphasis on the 10 jersey.

Ah come Notch it's a Friday man.... can you try and keep these posts a bit more .....succinct.....

Notch wrote:Pienaar was brought in to take "too much on" as you say. David Humphreys prioritised the signing of a 9 over a 10 at least in part because he believes that 9 is the most important position on the rugby pitch. There is a vision there that pre-dates Anscombe of a team built around a great scrum-half.

Problem is- how does Jackson go from a team where most of the burden of directing things falls on the 9 to a team where that burden still falls almost exclusively on the 10? Problem that dogs the IRFU is the right hand doesn't know what the left hand os down. Truth is, I wouldn't change it because I don't trust the IRFU to make the right call in setting a tactical template for the provinces based on the last eight years of coaching for the Irish national team. That the provinces have had license to come up with their own gameplans and coaches allowed to leave their own impression on their teams has been liberating and useful for them, their players and is the root of much of our provincial success. I can't back the IRFU, because they will model the part that is working after the part that isn't! Shoite trickles down.

Personally I think this is another failing of the national team. I think Humph is right. I think 9 and 10 are equal partners at least now in test rugby and Ireland still a team that places all the emphasis on the 10 jersey.

The National team has to go with the resources available - if they have an exceptional outhalf they will build the team around them, if they have an exceptional scrumhalf they will build the team around the scrumhalf.

I've no doubt Humphreys looked at what his playing resources were and decided that he has the better resources at outhalf than at scrumhalf so decided to buy in there. It might also have something to do with not being allowed sign an NIQ outhalf.

Munster and Ireland are definately looking to use Murray in more of a playmaking role, but you have to remember he is still very young and has plenty of critics for getting capped in the first place.

geoff998rugby wrote:Also to claim Contepomi was keeping Sexton out of the side in 2005-2006 and 2006-2007 (the years he went from 20 to 22) is being economical with the truth.

Christian Warner was the back up in those years and got far more game time than Sexton. Sextom was third choice at Leinster on his 21st birthday, where Jackson is now, not 2nd choice.

Sexton was 3rd Choice . With games comes the experience and honing of ability. Coach decides who gains experience from games and who doesn't.

You're trying to do a Jackson is/was better than Sexton whilst pretending not to. Just say what you mean. Jackson may indeed prove he's better, may indeed prove himself a bigger name historically than Sexton for club and Nation. Let's wait and see. Sexton's wait for Primetime might suggest he'll be hungrier to continue proving himself for longer than someone who got in early and takes Primetime for granted by the time he reaches 27? The future is out there...it isn't written yet. All I want is best irish side available and proving so weekly...I'll take either of them anytime they do that...

Don Alfonso wrote:People are being massively over-defensive, in my opinion.

People are saying what they want to say without saying it. People should just say what they think and things would be much clearer. Jackson is better at his age than Sexton was at the same age...and the reason for this assumption is that Jackson is being given the run of games and the kind of games to both prove it and - indeed - help the suggestion along. The more you play in high ranking games the better you adapt, the better you tend to become.

geoff998rugby wrote:Also to claim Contepomi was keeping Sexton out of the side in 2005-2006 and 2006-2007 (the years he went from 20 to 22) is being economical with the truth.

Christian Warner was the back up in those years and got far more game time than Sexton. Sextom was third choice at Leinster on his 21st birthday, where Jackson is now, not 2nd choice.

Sexton was the starting outhalf for Leinster in the last match in Lansdowne Road (Dec '06) against Ulster. My first time to see him and I thought he was excellent. He also started against Munster the previous week down in Thomond Park. Contempomi was on the bench.

May well be true Sin but fact is Christian Warner had more game time than Sexton in both 05-06 & 06-07

SecretFly I am not knocking Sexton at all but I picking Gibson up on his tripe of consigning Jackson to the 'not good enough' pile when he is only 21 and as illustrated is way ahead of Ireland's currently best 10 at the same age.

I am saying no more than that - anything else is people reading something that isn't there.

Regarding the lock crises McCarthy is out

Ryan has yet to do any training - they are hoping he can next week.

Notch wrote:Pienaar was brought in to take "too much on" as you say. David Humphreys prioritised the signing of a 9 over a 10 at least in part because he believes that 9 is the most important position on the rugby pitch. There is a vision there that pre-dates Anscombe of a team built around a great scrum-half.

Marshall is more suited to Anscombes gameplan than Pienaar though which is why our attacking play was better earlier in the season than now imo.

Pienaar's preferred long pass to the first and second reciever tends to make the back play very lateral and flat, whereas Marshall plays more of a NZ style short passing game which brings ball carriers running short back at an angle to suck in defenders before moving wide.

Pienaar has the tendency to go openside a lot too whereas Marshall likes to probe left and right which keeps defences narrow, similar to Reddan and this fits the gameplan better as well as players like Williams and Payne who like to attack the fringes off quick ball and offload.

Pienaar is without question the best player and a proven match winner but sometimes the team doesn't function as well with him there and need more of a facilitator at 9, rather than a general.

SecretFly wrote:

Don Alfonso wrote:People are being massively over-defensive, in my opinion.

People are saying what they want to say without saying it. People should just say what they think and things would be much clearer. Jackson is better at his age than Sexton was at the same age...and the reason for this assumption is that Jackson is being given the run of games and the kind of games to both prove it and - indeed - help the suggestion along. The more you play in high ranking games the better you adapt, the better you tend to become.

I think Sexton was as talented as Jackson is, but I don't think he was developed well in Leinster. He tried to emulate Contempomi & Knox which just was not / or is not his game. It took him a few years to figure that out. Looks to me as if the Ulster coaching staff building a team around Jackson that works to his strengths rather than his weaknesses.

geoff998rugby wrote:Regarding the lock crises McCarthy is out

Ryan has yet to do any training - they are hoping he can next week.

O'Connell out is a crisis... McCarthy is the great white elephant of Irish rugby....a decent workmanlike pro whos been built up as Irelands answer to Brad Thorn because he put in a decent hit on a South African in the Autumn and signed for Leinster.

Touhy, Henderson, DOC and Stevenson are all more than capable of filling McCarthys mythical sized boots, if not Ryan's.

ROG is starting for Munster this week. This surley confirms he will be the starting 10 for Ireland.

Ok..................... tester. Based on the last two weeks............................ and the last three or four years!!!.... can anyone tell me how Ireland are going to play next time up? Does anyone have a blessed idea how Ireland will play regardless of who turns up to actually play?

This team are so far removed from any predictable rational rhythm that I really don't know how they'll play, or what they'll do, even if O'Gara shows up. O'Gara could score three tries from a series of lightening attacks and I wouldn't be at all shocked. France are just babies when it comes to the kind of erratic platform Ireland currently enjoy.

My instinct is that Scotland will go for the kill...and the minute I think that, I pull back dramatically and think Ireland could destroy Scotland with one half of breathtaking menace.

That not knowing what the hell will happen has just got to stop......soon!

Well if we kick poorly, Scotland have a good back 3, so could do us some damage.

And we always kick poorly, so i expect damage to be done.

LeinsterFan4life wrote:ROG is starting for Munster this week. This surley confirms he will be the starting 10 for Ireland.

I'd say Sextons injury confirmed ROG would be starting......

Concise Mick

Methinks that too. I think that's the only thing about Ireland I can virtually guarantee................ wayward kicking and cigarettes issued as the soldiers wait in the trenches for the ball to come back.

McCarthy on his own is not a crises but alongside POC, Tuohy and maybe Ryan he potentially is

There have to be big questions marks, for very different reasons over Stevenson, Toner or Henderson if asked to play against Scotland

geoff998rugby wrote:McCarthy on his own is not a crises but alongside POC, Tuohy and maybe Ryan he potentially is

There have to be big questions marks, for very different reasons over Stevenson, Toner or Henderson if asked to play against Scotland

Henderson would be fine. He has the potential to be a much better player than McCarthy ( he may already be better as McCarthy can't go a game without knocking on) I would have no worries at all with him there.

Agreed he is the one for the future but still a lot to learn and will be playing in the backrow rather than the 2nd row for the next couple of years.

Someone on the Ulster supporters site saying D'Arcy is out as well - can someone confirm or is it a lot of garbage

Looks like it has been confirmed - makes selection very interesting

Its possible , but unlikely, that 7 of last weeks team will be missing.

5 are definitely missing

The Eeny Miney Mo Select Fifteen. AHA!!! Finally Deccie uses his trump card!

I hope Mcsharry or Marshall (maybe even both if BOD is injured) gets a start and that he doesn't just go for a BOD- Earls centre partnership.

You know he will - ROG, BOD, Earls it is

Building for the future under Deccie

What is happening to the Irish team guys? I have just seen on the Beeb that D'Arcy is confirmed as out for the remainder of the tournament. That makes it 7, by my reckoning, normal starters that will not be available with a couple more yet to be confirmed. Feel sorry for you guys, and I wanted to see Scotland take on a decent strength Irish team to see if we have actually improved.

Logic would not have a player as outhalf in an intl match who does not have the responsibility of kicking, and defends on the wing. In fact does not appear to have any of the recognised jobs of an outhalf...unless of course he wears no.9 and is South African

It's a fair point DOD. Its difficult for Jackson in that he has to come into a side with a completely different philosophy on the role of the halfbacks.

It's difficult for everyone actuallly, in that all three provinces have very specific identities and styles of rugby- different philosophies. And the national teams philosophy is fuzzy, vague and hard to discern from the outside but still relies on certain assumptions like 10 should be the main playmaker. Only Leinster play like that. Munster are also moving towards 9 as a playmaker.

Has to be Madigan. No point in wasting time on Jackson. Its not in him. Will be huge for Ulster in a few years maybe, but not in the same class as Madigan and never will be.

Now don' t get annoyed Geoff. Its very understandable your logic goes out the window on all Ulster hopefuls.

Jackson just doesn't have the Right Stuff to direct Ireland. That sir, is not tripe. It just is. You could see it in Sexton (well I could), when he was getting half-games at Jacksons age. Cheika held Sexton back. Not Contepomi. Kidney gave Sexton his big break back in the dark days of his young career.

As for experience, Madigan has twice as much as Jackson already (70 games). Possibly the best passer of a ball we have now. Inventive, incisive and has a sharp brain. Scores tries for fun. And he can kick. Just the player we need to light this side up. Its the next piece in the jigsaw for New Ireland.

Deccie may still feel duty-bound to slot Jackson on the bench. I think it may be the beginning of the end of Deccie, if he does. Playing ROG is bad enough.

Actually... there's a thought.

Ever the diplomat Gibbo.

You closet O'Gara fan you.

I can't wait until Geoff sees that post Gibbo. For all your bluff and bluster, I would actually agree in principle. I'd also greatly prefer Madigan to start over Jackson and ROG. One is going to be a great player but isn't quite ready. The other was a great player but should have called it a day before now. Lose-lose situation in many ways. Madigan is the guy who is actually in form.

Why didn't I mention Madigan until now? Because with Declan Kidney picking the team he has two chances to nail the 10 jersey. Fat chance and no chance. Sad but true.

Very interesting article comparing the 10's for Ireland now Sexton is out....

http://www.andymcgeady.com/the-irish-out-halves/

Notch wrote:

I can't wait until Geoff sees that post Gibbo. For all your bluff and bluster, I would actually agree in principle. I'd also greatly prefer Madigan to start over Jackson and ROG. One is going to be a great player but isn't quite ready. The other was a great player but should have called it a day before now. Lose-lose situation in many ways. Madigan is the guy who is actually in form.

Why didn't I mention Madigan until now? Because with Declan Kidney picking the team he has two chances to nail the 10 jersey. Fat chance and no chance. Sad but true.

Truthful as ever Notch. Whether I agree with you or not on occasions, I always respect that.

One thing we both strongly agree on, Kidney must end this farce after the 6-N and fall on his sword. I think even he knows it at this stage. He is clueless at this level. Save for one or 2 glorious wins, it has been obvious in every game we have played since the SLAM. A SLAM won the Munster Way and using Eddies players. He could never change that mindset. It has been rapidly downhill all the way from there.

ROG is currently trying his best to not get picked for the Scottish match, I honestly do not think he could be playing worse. The fact he will still start next week is horrifying.

Gibbo

One other thing we have in common is now matter how strongly we feel about any of the above we wouldn't be able to stop ourselves desperately wanting to see Ireland win on Sunday if we even wanted to!

Always want to see my country win, mo chara. Even at Extreme-Tiddlywinks. It is in-built. It hurts me to see us under-achieve and get nowhere. And I really believe we could do a lot better with this squad. And some new faces to replace more of the aulfellas.

We are getting some now due to injury alone. That says it all.

Madigan had a stormer last night by all accounts. Just sayin...

http://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/leinster-show-no-mercy-as-young-pretenders-sparkle-29076219.html

UlstermaninGlasgow wrote:Very interesting article comparing the 10's for Ireland now Sexton is out....

http://www.andymcgeady.com/the-irish-out-halves/

Good article Ulster.

Another one on the subject. ROG based.
http://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/not-giving-in-without-a-fight-29076217.html

I'm not a massive rugby fan, but watch all the Ireland games, and try to catch as many Ulster matches as I can, so please forgive my ignorance.

Could anyone tell me how JJ Hanrahan is playing for Munster, if at all? I watched the under 20's World Cup and thought he looked like a real star in the making. Is he getting much game time or is it at a premium due to the presence of O'Gara and Keatley?