Ireland 10 vs Scotland

First topic message reminder :

Surely we can't persist with ROG if Sexton doesn't make it.

More than anything it isn't fair on ROG himself... he has had it and TBH should have (internationally) retired after WC 2011 as planned. His place kicking is his only remaining string to his originally short bow.

One or two alternatives need to get time in the side as Jonny isn't invincible, and i would say better late than never.

Madigan has been going well for Leinster, is a prodigious attacking talent with an excellent running and passing game with his kicking catching up. His percentage from the tee is fairly good this season ~80%

Keatley has IMO outperformed ROG at Munster this season, has been is good form from the tee... but does not seem to be high on Deccies list of candidates and seems unlikely to make 1st choice

Jackson seems to be above the two Ians in Deccies considerations, and whilst on his day possesses a very good all round game has been lacking consistency kicking from hand and tee.

Personally I would pick Madigan with Jackson on the Bench - nothing ventured...

I would hope/think that Luke Marshall now has a realistic shot of the 12 shirt FES

toml wrote:Additionally i would say all of the 3 younger alternatives are better than Scotlands 10s so why not?

Exactly, Ruairidh for all my defending him on the Scottish threads, isn't a top class 10. He's an attacking threat however. Unlike O'Gara. Jackson played against him this season three times and outplayed him. But expect nothing to change.

Oh and this is the likely Scottish 23, if all the walking wounded recover

1. Grant 2. Ford 3. Low 4. Gray 5. Hamilton 6. Harley 7. Brown 8. Beattie 9. Laidlaw 10. Jackson 11. Visser 12. Scott 13. Lamont 14. Maitland 15. Hogg
16. McArthur 17. Welsh 18. Cross 19. Kellock 20. Denton 21. Pyrgos 22. Weir 23. Horne

Hookisms and Hyperbole wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Hookisms and Hyperbole wrote:

Sin é wrote:
The irony of that comment.

Can you please quote for me in this thread where I have attacked players or made snide comments based their province.

I'm pretty sure Keatley is from Munster too and I'd have zero problem with him starting the next match for Ireland.

Keatley is from Dublin, so is an adopted Munsterman.

If its not provincial rivalry what fuels your vitriolic diatribes about ROG? It can't be just a player playing poorly fueling those snide comments.

Thanks for your insightful comments into my own brain. I think I'm better judge of what I think than you. I love ROG. I think he is second only to BOD in great Irish players of the modern era. I mean great, not good or decent. Great. In his prime he won us games single handedly. But his prime was four years ago and his dreadful performances recently make that seem even longer ago. He is not even a shell of his former self, he's a empty husk. The guy is 35 obviously he isn't as good as he once was. But he is now embarrassing. His decision making in the autumn was a shambles. His performances for Munster have been terrible. And now, in a game effectively set up in every way for 'classic' ROG he utterly failed in every respect. Even if he is slow, his distribution is not as good, his reflexes are slower and his defense worse than ever, he is an outhalf. He should be able to kick. ROG could not kick out of hand at all. It was embarrassing to watch. He scuffed his first kick. He sliced one at a 90 degree angle. When the pressure really was on his he choked and misses a simple kick at goal. ROG of 2009 would never have missed that. ROG of 2009 would have kicked the corners and driven us up the pitch even if the chase game wasn't that great. ROG would have won us that match, a match we wouldn't have deserved to win. Instead he was truly terrible. I have been thinking about when I have honestly seen such an individually abject performance in a green shirt in the professional era. I genuinely can't think of one.

I'm not angry or bitter or anything like that at his selection. My overwhelming feeling is pure sadness at watched a once great player diminish his international legacy on a regular basis.

Perception is everything - you come across as a bitter old fool to me (which George Hook isn't).

I laugh when people talk about ruining their 'legacies'. John Hayes was supposed to have ruined his legacy. If anything it gets better when compared to those who follow. I suspect ROG will be in the same category - so I wouldn't be too worried about it. I admire him because no doubt he probably would prefer to be at home with his wife and kids watching that mess on tv. But he doesn't give up.

Sin é wrote:

Hookisms and Hyperbole wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Hookisms and Hyperbole wrote:

Sin é wrote:
The irony of that comment.

Can you please quote for me in this thread where I have attacked players or made snide comments based their province.

I'm pretty sure Keatley is from Munster too and I'd have zero problem with him starting the next match for Ireland.

Keatley is from Dublin, so is an adopted Munsterman.

If its not provincial rivalry what fuels your vitriolic diatribes about ROG? It can't be just a player playing poorly fueling those snide comments.

Thanks for your insightful comments into my own brain. I think I'm better judge of what I think than you. I love ROG. I think he is second only to BOD in great Irish players of the modern era. I mean great, not good or decent. Great. In his prime he won us games single handedly. But his prime was four years ago and his dreadful performances recently make that seem even longer ago. He is not even a shell of his former self, he's a empty husk. The guy is 35 obviously he isn't as good as he once was. But he is now embarrassing. His decision making in the autumn was a shambles. His performances for Munster have been terrible. And now, in a game effectively set up in every way for 'classic' ROG he utterly failed in every respect. Even if he is slow, his distribution is not as good, his reflexes are slower and his defense worse than ever, he is an outhalf. He should be able to kick. ROG could not kick out of hand at all. It was embarrassing to watch. He scuffed his first kick. He sliced one at a 90 degree angle. When the pressure really was on his he choked and misses a simple kick at goal. ROG of 2009 would never have missed that. ROG of 2009 would have kicked the corners and driven us up the pitch even if the chase game wasn't that great. ROG would have won us that match, a match we wouldn't have deserved to win. Instead he was truly terrible. I have been thinking about when I have honestly seen such an individually abject performance in a green shirt in the professional era. I genuinely can't think of one.

I'm not angry or bitter or anything like that at his selection. My overwhelming feeling is pure sadness at watched a once great player diminish his international legacy on a regular basis.

Perception is everything - you come across as a bitter old fool to me (which George Hook isn't).

I laugh when people talk about ruining their 'legacies'. John Hayes was supposed to have ruined his legacy. If anything it gets better when compared to those who follow. I suspect ROG will be in the same category - so I wouldn't be too worried about it. I admire him because no doubt he probably would prefer to be at home with his wife and kids watching that mess on tv. But he doesn't give up.

+1...

Sin é wrote:

Hookisms and Hyperbole wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Hookisms and Hyperbole wrote:

Sin é wrote:
The irony of that comment.

Can you please quote for me in this thread where I have attacked players or made snide comments based their province.

I'm pretty sure Keatley is from Munster too and I'd have zero problem with him starting the next match for Ireland.

Keatley is from Dublin, so is an adopted Munsterman.

If its not provincial rivalry what fuels your vitriolic diatribes about ROG? It can't be just a player playing poorly fueling those snide comments.

Thanks for your insightful comments into my own brain. I think I'm better judge of what I think than you. I love ROG. I think he is second only to BOD in great Irish players of the modern era. I mean great, not good or decent. Great. In his prime he won us games single handedly. But his prime was four years ago and his dreadful performances recently make that seem even longer ago. He is not even a shell of his former self, he's a empty husk. The guy is 35 obviously he isn't as good as he once was. But he is now embarrassing. His decision making in the autumn was a shambles. His performances for Munster have been terrible. And now, in a game effectively set up in every way for 'classic' ROG he utterly failed in every respect. Even if he is slow, his distribution is not as good, his reflexes are slower and his defense worse than ever, he is an outhalf. He should be able to kick. ROG could not kick out of hand at all. It was embarrassing to watch. He scuffed his first kick. He sliced one at a 90 degree angle. When the pressure really was on his he choked and misses a simple kick at goal. ROG of 2009 would never have missed that. ROG of 2009 would have kicked the corners and driven us up the pitch even if the chase game wasn't that great. ROG would have won us that match, a match we wouldn't have deserved to win. Instead he was truly terrible. I have been thinking about when I have honestly seen such an individually abject performance in a green shirt in the professional era. I genuinely can't think of one.

I'm not angry or bitter or anything like that at his selection. My overwhelming feeling is pure sadness at watched a once great player diminish his international legacy on a regular basis.

Perception is everything - you come across as a bitter old fool to me (which George Hook isn't).

I laugh when people talk about ruining their 'legacies'. John Hayes was supposed to have ruined his legacy. If anything it gets better when compared to those who follow. I suspect ROG will be in the same category - so I wouldn't be too worried about it. I admire him because no doubt he probably would prefer to be at home with his wife and kids watching that mess on tv. But he doesn't give up.

Oh Sin, Hook (the George variety) is a bitter old fool.... I feel exactly the same as Hooky in that O'Gara for a long time has been Ireland's stand out 10. But he's not anymore. He's not even second best. In fact I'd say he'll be hard pressed to get back into the Munster team if Hanrahan plays like he did on Saturday.

John Hayes had no choice in playing on, as the IRFU and the provinces had no succession plan in place for TH... However at 10 we have plenty of options all playing regularly for their provinces! There's even one playing outside of Ireland who's currently in better form than Radge. He is ruining his legacy.

Sin é wrote: Perception is everything - you come across as a bitter old fool to me (which George Hook isn't).

Jesus lad, you really should think before you type. WoC have a great article on this subject this morning. Thanks for proving my point about you, DOD and ROG. Superb.

Hookisms and Hyperbole wrote:

Sin é wrote: Perception is everything - you come across as a bitter old fool to me (which George Hook isn't).

Jesus lad, you really should think before you type. WoC have a great article on this subject this morning. Thanks for proving my point about you, DOD and ROG. Superb.

Jesus wept, did he just say that Hook (the real one) isn't a bitter old fool?

Good lord. There are no words

Why can't we ever talk about these things like real people?

The only respite I'll give O'Gara is to say he's had his day - he's simply and honestly had his time. Time to get onto a commentary panel and entertain us with his dry wit.

But did I mention a respite? Well yep, I did, so here goes. On the evidence of that team performance yesterday - AND the one the week before against Wales - O'Gara certainly wasn't the only one misfiring and falling over his own feet in the attempt to look like a professional rugby player.

Heaslip was having a lovely day, fretting and allowing his mind to kill any hope of victory well before England even looked like they'd arrived in Dublin. His entire demeanor was negative and wasn't what you expect from a captain. Mistakes are there to be seized upon as turning points not as white flags hoisted. Don't get annoyed with yourself and show it stroppily for the opposition to feed on - get even, get your blood up - do a Paul O'Connell on it. Paul O'Connell saves the aggression and the scowls for actual moments in games when they are needed. Legitimate aggression, driven through gameplay itself, not the stamped feet of petulance. Nothing happened for Heaslip only the continued sigh and puff of a man not getting his own way.

And what should he have expected? Kearney was nowhere to be seen, house minding at home in the 15 house for the entire game. Everytime he DID collect the ball he never really had a blessed inkling of how to get himself and the team back on the front foot.

And how could he have ever had an idea of getting some forward motion back into the Irish game? His comrades certainly didn't have the attitude that they were about to follow anyone anywhere favourable for some Irish attacking dominance. They were all on strict stay-at-home duty for the day. Gilroy caught the ball and danced four or five times before deciding to make an effort to actually run past someone. I don't blame him for the lack of space Ireland gave themselves (that was a collective 'effort'. Gilroy's young, it was a torrid game, he and Zebo still have so much to learn and learn they will - but please, please, please, all these young gifted players with pace - stop the cowpat prancing displays before the act of trying to evade the opposition - it wastes valuable miliseconds.

The entire team from the very beginning seemed terrified of what England might do to them if they cut loose. I don't think the Irish truly believed in themselves to beat the English and were more in damage limitation mode from the very off. Who knows how much they each knew, how tired they still were from the Welsh exploits, how aching. I don't know but I do know they should have been stirred into more readiness to do battle than was evident in that, yet again, defence is king attitude.

So certainly O'Gara wasn't alone in the fail catagory. It was evident all over the field. And in the coaching unit too;) These players ain't picking themselves.

Notch wrote:

Why can't we ever talk about these things like real people?

Because we're all bitter and twisted Notch my friend...

Notch wrote:

Why can't we ever talk about these things like real people?

Because we are all trying to be caricatures of normal people online. In the face of the Ulster says NO brigade fronted by the embittered old AIL player (dont forget the head injury) who clearly got beaten up by Munster club teams throughout the years what do you expect in terms of the continuous rubbish.


I for one dont think ROG should be picked but then again the alternatives dont fill me with confidence, so what the hell why not give one of them a go...(except DK has the IRFU over his shoulder saying dont f up the 6ns).

Other than that its just a bit of fun...

I read the George Hook article. Bizarre the only mention of ROG was positive when the theme is careless kicking. All the players he mentions kicking poorly did indeed kick poorly, as did ROG. It was the thing that struck me most about watching ROG yesterday and indeed all season- his kicking game from hand is gone. He had one lovely spiral punt into touch which was reminiscent of when he was a good test rugby player, and pretty much every single one of his other kicks was poor.

In a professional game, there is no room for sentiment. But certain pundits, fans and even seemingly coaches have the rose-tinted goggles on when they're looking at his contribution.

DOD are you suggesting that there is an agenda by Ulster branch to get ROG dropped because Hookie banged his noggin against Cork Con?

I'd shortened Hook's thoughts if they were my own.

'Careless kicking' isn't the issue. That's a sidetrack.

Kicking itself is the issue - the propensity to kick away possession is a virus running through the Irish psyche.

Kicking poorly or kicking well - less of both please is the real issue.

rodders wrote:DOD are you suggesting that there is an agenda by Ulster branch to get ROG dropped because Hookie banged his noggin against Cork Con?

He's onto u- I mean, um... how ridiculous!

UlstermaninGlasgow wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Hookisms and Hyperbole wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Hookisms and Hyperbole wrote:

Sin é wrote:
The irony of that comment.

Can you please quote for me in this thread where I have attacked players or made snide comments based their province.

I'm pretty sure Keatley is from Munster too and I'd have zero problem with him starting the next match for Ireland.

Keatley is from Dublin, so is an adopted Munsterman.

If its not provincial rivalry what fuels your vitriolic diatribes about ROG? It can't be just a player playing poorly fueling those snide comments.

Thanks for your insightful comments into my own brain. I think I'm better judge of what I think than you. I love ROG. I think he is second only to BOD in great Irish players of the modern era. I mean great, not good or decent. Great. In his prime he won us games single handedly. But his prime was four years ago and his dreadful performances recently make that seem even longer ago. He is not even a shell of his former self, he's a empty husk. The guy is 35 obviously he isn't as good as he once was. But he is now embarrassing. His decision making in the autumn was a shambles. His performances for Munster have been terrible. And now, in a game effectively set up in every way for 'classic' ROG he utterly failed in every respect. Even if he is slow, his distribution is not as good, his reflexes are slower and his defense worse than ever, he is an outhalf. He should be able to kick. ROG could not kick out of hand at all. It was embarrassing to watch. He scuffed his first kick. He sliced one at a 90 degree angle. When the pressure really was on his he choked and misses a simple kick at goal. ROG of 2009 would never have missed that. ROG of 2009 would have kicked the corners and driven us up the pitch even if the chase game wasn't that great. ROG would have won us that match, a match we wouldn't have deserved to win. Instead he was truly terrible. I have been thinking about when I have honestly seen such an individually abject performance in a green shirt in the professional era. I genuinely can't think of one.

I'm not angry or bitter or anything like that at his selection. My overwhelming feeling is pure sadness at watched a once great player diminish his international legacy on a regular basis.

Perception is everything - you come across as a bitter old fool to me (which George Hook isn't).

I laugh when people talk about ruining their 'legacies'. John Hayes was supposed to have ruined his legacy. If anything it gets better when compared to those who follow. I suspect ROG will be in the same category - so I wouldn't be too worried about it. I admire him because no doubt he probably would prefer to be at home with his wife and kids watching that mess on tv. But he doesn't give up.

Oh Sin, Hook (the George variety) is a bitter old fool.... I feel exactly the same as Hooky in that O'Gara for a long time has been Ireland's stand out 10. But he's not anymore. He's not even second best. In fact I'd say he'll be hard pressed to get back into the Munster team if Hanrahan plays like he did on Saturday.

George Hook is no fool. He gets paid to act it. He is delighted with his life - he really is enjoying himself. He sure ain't bitter.

John Hayes had no choice in playing on, as the IRFU and the provinces had no succession plan in place for TH... However at 10 we have plenty of options all playing regularly for their provinces! There's even one playing outside of Ireland who's currently in better form than Radge. He is ruining his legacy.

John Hayes had no choice? Apparently Mike Ross was up to it for about a year before Hayes was dispensed with. That didn't stop people claiming he was ruining his legacy though. ROG's legacy is firmly intact.

O'Gara's legacy is intact. True.
Now he needs to be told that. More importantly, the man who was there with him from the beginning and who obviously thinks so highly of the man, he needs to let O'Gara know too; and needs to let O'Gara go - to stop clinging to him like a comfy blanket.

O'Gara's legacy is intact. Let's not spoil it too much in the telling by playing on beyond his natural ending.

Lads, as I said on the match thread I'm not one for gutting ROG and he is a legend but his time is simply up. Was his game perfect when he came onto the International scene? No, but he was thrown in and given a chance to develop. This has happened with Sexton and Jonny is now the starting 10.

ROG is never going to get better now. Madigan and Jackson are at least on a level with him and WILL get better. They should be getting picked on the bench or at least given a chance. Its not O'Gara's fault that he's getting picked for the bench so I'm not blaming him for being there.

However, this is from Ronan's book , "He felt Humphs could make an impact. Nobody admired Humphs more than I did but he was 34 now and I don't believe he was the player he used to be." For the last 2 years ROG has become Humphreys.

SecretFly wrote:O'Gara's legacy is intact. True.
Now he needs to be told that. More importantly, the man who was there with him from the beginning and who obviously thinks so highly of the man, he needs to let O'Gara know too; and needs to let O'Gara go - to stop clinging to him like a comfy blanket.

O'Gara's legacy is intact. Let's not spoil it too much in the telling by playing on beyond his natural ending.

Eh, O'Gara tried to retire after the world cup (remember he said he found it really difficult being away from his family) and the IRFU stepped in (Paul McNaughton) very quickly and stated he couldn't as he was under contract.

Anyone listening to Shane Horgan on Off the Ball last week. He said something about O'Gara being involved in backs analysis/coaching.

For all your bitching about O'Gara being on the bench - its far more likely that he is there as an emergency option which says a lot about the young pretenders to the throne we do have.

If you take out either of Madigan or Jackson from Leinster or Ulster, both teams are down to academy outhalfs (and look what happened to Ulster at the weekend and they have Pienaar).

The Boss wrote:Lads, as I said on the match thread I'm not one for gutting ROG and he is a legend but his time is simply up. Was his game perfect when he came onto the International scene? No, but he was thrown in and given a chance to develop. This has happened with Sexton and Jonny is now the starting 10.

So what needs to happen then is Sexton needs to let the other lads get a chance to develop. They are just not going to learn anything from the bench.

ROG is never going to get better now. Madigan and Jackson are at least on a level with him and WILL get better. They should be getting picked on the bench or at least given a chance. Its not O'Gara's fault that he's getting picked for the bench so I'm not blaming him for being there.

Madigan was made a fool of by Parks at Christmas and I don't think Parks is any way better than ROG. Hard to know how good Jackson is with Pienaar pulling the strings for Ulster. I don't count doing well against a Fiji side who were not interested.

However, this is from Ronan's book , "He felt Humphs could make an impact. Nobody admired Humphs more than I did but he was 34 now and I don't believe he was the player he used to be." For the last 2 years ROG has become Humphreys.

When Humphreys was 34 (2005) O'Gara was probably at the same experience level as Sexton (not Madigan or Jackson), except unlike ROG, Humphreys was still starting games. Sexton has been first choice starting all games for Ireland since after the world cup.

Sin é wrote:

Notch wrote:I don't understand the pro-ROG argument.

1) Other players are not up to it
2) We must continue to play ROG

It has to ignore 3) ROG has demonstrated he himself is not up to it. The only case to be made is about place kicking.

Keatley has a kicking percentage above 80%, Madigan kicked 6/6 last time out for Leinster and Jackson had a high place kicking percentage earlier in the season- I'm surprised that Jackson is our 3rd choice given he hasn't been kicking since he picked up an injury he's been carrying and the responsibility was handed to Pienaar.

I think it is time to give someone else- anyone else- a shot.

You need to look at Keatley's performance in high pressure games (HCup). His kicking percentages drop to 40%.
Keatley is not viewed as the long-term future at outhalf in Munster*, so I doubt he is in with a shout for Ireland which just goes to show how much you all know.

Cheers. I don't think Keatley is good enough to be a top-class international 10 either. Same way I think ROGs days of being able to perform at this level are long gone. I wouldn't have a huge amount of confidence in Declan Fitzpatrick or Michael Bent to put in excellent performances at tighthead and I have no faith in any of our scrum-halves.

Why are these players selected? Because there is no-one else. The argument is not "Keatley/Madigan/Jackson is the messiah and their selection will remedy the wrong done by ROG". Thats not a luxury we have. After our one international class 10 gets injured its all about- who is the least worst option?

Almost time I've seen Munster play this season Keatley has improved them whereas ROG has made them worse. The one exception is against Racing Metro away where Keatley had a poor game. As an Ulster fan, I can imagine the unlikely but possible scenario we meet Munster in the Heineken Cup final. I'd be feeling confident whoever is named at 10, but if its ROG- I have a big sh*t-eating grin on my face based on his form this season. This is the bottom line. Unfortunately the argument is not about why are we playing ROG when we have so many other great options, it's about why are we playing ROG when he offers nothing anymore.

I would be wary of Jackson getting put in because I don't think he is ready yet. It would be ideal to have an experienced second choice who can steer the ship whilst he continues to develop. But the performances of ROG this season forcing our hand- hence why I've advocated Keatley as the most complete alternative yet the one with the least potential.

Maybe we need to just throw Jackson in and see how he does- gotta go backward to go forward etc. I'm not worried about that from a rugby PoV. I'm worried about that in that whilst ROG can play like a drain and still somehow get rave reviews if Jackson does get selected and plays poorly he'll get crucified for it. Thats the way of the Irish. It's somehow more understandable for a guy with 120+ caps to have a shocker than a guy making his test debut... kind of opposite-land.

The one thing that gives me confidence about the potential selection of Paddy is that whilst he had a poor day in the Heineken Cup final and was subsequently hammered for it, his response to that was exemplary. He wasn't affected by it. Just picked himself up and got on with it. I feel he has the mental strength to deal with a bad game and a few bad headlines, which is what he'll need to be a test player long-term.

Sin é wrote:

The Boss wrote:Lads, as I said on the match thread I'm not one for gutting ROG and he is a legend but his time is simply up. Was his game perfect when he came onto the International scene? No, but he was thrown in and given a chance to develop. This has happened with Sexton and Jonny is now the starting 10.

So what needs to happen then is Sexton needs to let the other lads get a chance to develop. They are just not going to learn anything from the bench.

ROG is never going to get better now. Madigan and Jackson are at least on a level with him and WILL get better. They should be getting picked on the bench or at least given a chance. Its not O'Gara's fault that he's getting picked for the bench so I'm not blaming him for being there.

Madigan was made a fool of by Parks at Christmas and I don't think Parks is any way better than ROG. Hard to know how good Jackson is with Pienaar pulling the strings for Ulster. I don't count doing well against a Fiji side who were not interested.

However, this is from Ronan's book , "He felt Humphs could make an impact. Nobody admired Humphs more than I did but he was 34 now and I don't believe he was the player he used to be." For the last 2 years ROG has become Humphreys.

When Humphreys was 34 (2005) O'Gara was probably at the same experience level as Sexton (not Madigan or Jackson), except unlike ROG, Humphreys was still starting games. Sexton has been first choice starting all games for Ireland since after the world cup.

Well Sexton is now injured so Ireland's hand should be forced into giving them a chance. ROG shouldn't be getting picked. He will turn up to bench and fair play to him for doing it but our we going to keep burying our heads in the sand and saying that the ghost of ROG should play ahead of younger players who should be incorporated.

Depending on on how serious Sexton's injury is we are now 1 injury to ROG away from having an uncapped starting 10 with an uncapped 10 on the bench.

IRFU's fault. Not O'Gara's.

Sin é wrote:

SecretFly wrote:O'Gara's legacy is intact. True.
Now he needs to be told that. More importantly, the man who was there with him from the beginning and who obviously thinks so highly of the man, he needs to let O'Gara know too; and needs to let O'Gara go - to stop clinging to him like a comfy blanket.

O'Gara's legacy is intact. Let's not spoil it too much in the telling by playing on beyond his natural ending.

Eh, O'Gara tried to retire after the world cup (remember he said he found it really difficult being away from his family) and the IRFU stepped in (Paul McNaughton) very quickly and stated he couldn't as he was under contract.

Anyone listening to Shane Horgan on Off the Ball last week. He said something about O'Gara being involved in backs analysis/coaching.

For all your bitching about O'Gara being on the bench - its far more likely that he is there as an emergency option which says a lot about the young pretenders to the throne we do have.

If you take out either of Madigan or Jackson from Leinster or Ulster, both teams are down to academy outhalfs (and look what happened to Ulster at the weekend and they have Pienaar).

Eh up, I'll make it easier for you.... as you're in a quandry about agreeing with me and the rest of us but not being in a position to be seen to agree, as you think you're damned if you and damned if you don't, if you know what I mean. So I'll make it easy for you, I don't care who tells him his time is over, whether it's Kidney, O'Connell, or that beast without a human face - the IRFU!!! The point continues to be, O'Gara is no longer first option, cover, or emergency requirement. He is not fulfilling any of those roles, he is being chosen by a man who needs to give the next line down their time on the bench.

If O'Gara was working as a fail safe winner of close run matches then there might be a case. We're losing more than we're winning - still. There is no risk in trying the future when the present is losing. None. That time has long since arrived.

Sin é wrote:Anyone listening to Shane Horgan on Off the Ball last week. He said something about O'Gara being involved in backs analysis/coaching.

Well he's doing a f*cking great job of that isn't he!

SecretFly wrote:
Eh up, I'll make it easier for you.If O'Gara was working as a fail safe winner of close run matches then there might be a case. We're losing more than we're winning - still. There is no risk in trying the future when the present is losing. None. That time has long since arrived.

Yep.

Notch made the point I was going to, but I'll make it anyway.

Jackson, Madigan and Keatley are all "untested" at International level. They have all played in high pressure games, and they've all made mistakes. They all have been crucified as well for mistakes. But each one of them has stepped up to the plate and played better this season.

Look at Jackson in the HC final last year. Looked out of his depth. Now look at him this year. Turned around the game vs Castres away, ran the show vs Saints in Franklins Gardens. Sure he struggled with the boot lately, but he was carrying an injury, before that he was very consistent. He's not just getting an armchair ride from Pienaar, he's running a very classy backline.

Look at Keatley. Had a stinker vs Metro along with Murray, but picked himself up and played well vs Metro at home, Edinburgh away. Limited player maybe but in form and better than ROG at the minute.

Madigan may not have had many games at 10, but he's looked assured with boot and passing. And he offers an attacking threat. Look at the Blues game, or Connacht in the RDS, or the Dragons at the start of the year. He's playing well, and has learned from the horror show in Galway!

Give them a chance and they'll sink or swim. But I'd put money on swim!

UlstermaninGlasgow wrote:Notch made the point I was going to, but I'll make it anyway.

Jackson, Madigan and Keatley are all "untested" at International level. They have all played in high pressure games, and they've all made mistakes. They all have been crucified as well for mistakes. But each one of them has stepped up to the plate and played better this season.

Look at Jackson in the HC final last year. Looked out of his depth. Now look at him this year. Turned around the game vs Castres away, ran the show vs Saints in Franklins Gardens. Sure he struggled with the boot lately, but he was carrying an injury, before that he was very consistent. He's not just getting an armchair ride from Pienaar, he's running a very classy backline.

Look at Keatley. Had a stinker vs Metro along with Murray, but picked himself up and played well vs Metro at home, Edinburgh away. Limited player maybe but in form and better than ROG at the minute.

Madigan may not have had many games at 10, but he's looked assured with boot and passing. And he offers an attacking threat. Look at the Blues game, or Connacht in the RDS, or the Dragons at the start of the year. He's playing well, and has learned from the horror show in Galway!

Give them a chance and they'll sink or swim. But I'd put money on swim!

Munster would have failed to qualify for the HCup knock-outs if Keatley started against Saracens as a 40% kicking ratio is fail rate.

Keatley has had a few stinkers recently which you must have missed (including a couple of home losses - Scarlets before the Saracens games stands out particularly). That was Munster's first home loss to the Scarlets in about 10 years.

It's kind of begging the question though Sin- if Keatley should be ruled out for a few stinkers, why does O'Gara still get picked after a season of consecutive stinkers?

rodders wrote:It will have to be ROG. Jackson is out of sorts too and Madigan is too far down the pecking order and not a proven goal kicker.

The plus is that one of Jackson or Madigan will get a spot on the bench.

80% + in the league (its showing 80.65% on the pro12 site but he got 6/6 on Friday).

The thing that irked me about ROGs performance was that we were going pretty well in the lineout, and making some great gains with our maul. Had we got a lineout in a good position there's every chance we could have put serious pressure on the English line, i mean, it would have been some mugging if we won that game, but it still could have happened. There was one occasion we were on the halfway line, he kicked for touch, got us just inside the 10m line, we won the lineout, won another penalty, he kicked again, just outside the 22. I mean, 2 kicks at touch to get from the halfway line to the 22, for a player who offers a "hand on the tiller" as ROG is supposed to. Feic it, stick Madigan in there, he could throw a wild pass and lose the game for us, but he could just as easily score a try himself.

[quote="Notch"]

Sin é wrote:Anyone listening to Shane Horgan on Off the Ball last week. He said something about O'Gara being involved in backs analysis/coaching.

Well he's doing a f*cking great job of that isn't he!

You can't make a silk purse out of a pigs ear.

UiG get back to studying ffs . Saw you at M field (Clyde) and shouted but you(or was it your doppelgänger ?) ignored me.

Sin é wrote:

UlstermaninGlasgow wrote:Notch made the point I was going to, but I'll make it anyway.

Jackson, Madigan and Keatley are all "untested" at International level. They have all played in high pressure games, and they've all made mistakes. They all have been crucified as well for mistakes. But each one of them has stepped up to the plate and played better this season.

Look at Jackson in the HC final last year. Looked out of his depth. Now look at him this year. Turned around the game vs Castres away, ran the show vs Saints in Franklins Gardens. Sure he struggled with the boot lately, but he was carrying an injury, before that he was very consistent. He's not just getting an armchair ride from Pienaar, he's running a very classy backline.

Look at Keatley. Had a stinker vs Metro along with Murray, but picked himself up and played well vs Metro at home, Edinburgh away. Limited player maybe but in form and better than ROG at the minute.

Madigan may not have had many games at 10, but he's looked assured with boot and passing. And he offers an attacking threat. Look at the Blues game, or Connacht in the RDS, or the Dragons at the start of the year. He's playing well, and has learned from the horror show in Galway!

Give them a chance and they'll sink or swim. But I'd put money on swim!

Munster would have failed to qualify for the HCup knock-outs if Keatley started against Saracens as a 40% kicking ratio is fail rate.

Keatley has had a few stinkers recently which you must have missed (including a couple of home losses - Scarlets before the Saracens games stands out particularly). That was Munster's first home loss to the Scarlets in about 10 years.

JJ looked great at the weekend and would already be pushing for an Ireland place if he could get a game at Munster instead of playing AIL. The guy is magic. I hope he leaves Munster quick if Penny keeps refusing to play him.

21st Century Schizoid Man wrote:UiG get back to studying ffs . Saw you at M field (Clyde) and shouted but you(or was it your doppelgänger ?) ignored me.

Doppelganger I'm afraid... Too busy studying... Or so I should be at least!

Notch wrote:It's kind of begging the question though Sin- if Keatley should be ruled out for a few stinkers, why does O'Gara still get picked after a season of consecutive stinkers?

He hasn't had any stinkers against teams like the Scarlets (home or away).

Anyway, I'm not ruling him out because of the stinkers - I'm responding to your contention that Keatley has been brilliant for Munster this season.

The reason why I would rule him out of contention is because of his temperment. Seems to be a lovely guy, but even Keith Earls isn't as nervous as him doing an interview.

LeinsterFan4life wrote:JJ looked great at the weekend and would already be pushing for an Ireland place if he could get a game at Munster instead of playing AIL. The guy is magic. I hope he leaves Munster quick if Penny keeps refusing to play him.

JJ just signed a new 2 year contract, so I'd say he is happy enough to go along with what Penney does with him bearing in mind that Penney was the Academy head when Dan Carter was coming through.

SecretFly wrote:

Sin é wrote:

SecretFly wrote:O'Gara's legacy is intact. True.
Now he needs to be told that. More importantly, the man who was there with him from the beginning and who obviously thinks so highly of the man, he needs to let O'Gara know too; and needs to let O'Gara go - to stop clinging to him like a comfy blanket.

O'Gara's legacy is intact. Let's not spoil it too much in the telling by playing on beyond his natural ending.

Eh, O'Gara tried to retire after the world cup (remember he said he found it really difficult being away from his family) and the IRFU stepped in (Paul McNaughton) very quickly and stated he couldn't as he was under contract.

Anyone listening to Shane Horgan on Off the Ball last week. He said something about O'Gara being involved in backs analysis/coaching.

For all your bitching about O'Gara being on the bench - its far more likely that he is there as an emergency option which says a lot about the young pretenders to the throne we do have.

If you take out either of Madigan or Jackson from Leinster or Ulster, both teams are down to academy outhalfs (and look what happened to Ulster at the weekend and they have Pienaar).

Eh up, I'll make it easier for you.... as you're in a quandry about agreeing with me and the rest of us but not being in a position to be seen to agree, as you think you're damned if you and damned if you don't, if you know what I mean. So I'll make it easy for you, I don't care who tells him his time is over, whether it's Kidney, O'Connell, or that beast without a human face - the IRFU!!! The point continues to be, O'Gara is no longer first option, cover, or emergency requirement. He is not fulfilling any of those roles, he is being chosen by a man who needs to give the next line down their time on the bench.

If O'Gara was working as a fail safe winner of close run matches then there might be a case. We're losing more than we're winning - still. There is no risk in trying the future when the present is losing. None. That time has long since arrived.

Hang on, I'll make it easier for you. ROG has to do what he is told because he is under contract to the IRFU until the end of this season.

I'd still think it wouldn't be right to throw a young, inexperienced player into a game like that. Think how upset Tom Court is over the whole Twickenham game last year even though everyone knows that he isn't really a tighthead and everyone mentions it wasn't his fault he still seems to feel he is blamed for it. How well would someone like Madigan deal with that. By the way, wasn't Jackson ruled out by injury anyway.

Sin é wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

Sin é wrote:

SecretFly wrote:O'Gara's legacy is intact. True.
Now he needs to be told that. More importantly, the man who was there with him from the beginning and who obviously thinks so highly of the man, he needs to let O'Gara know too; and needs to let O'Gara go - to stop clinging to him like a comfy blanket.

O'Gara's legacy is intact. Let's not spoil it too much in the telling by playing on beyond his natural ending.

Eh, O'Gara tried to retire after the world cup (remember he said he found it really difficult being away from his family) and the IRFU stepped in (Paul McNaughton) very quickly and stated he couldn't as he was under contract.

Anyone listening to Shane Horgan on Off the Ball last week. He said something about O'Gara being involved in backs analysis/coaching.

For all your bitching about O'Gara being on the bench - its far more likely that he is there as an emergency option which says a lot about the young pretenders to the throne we do have.

If you take out either of Madigan or Jackson from Leinster or Ulster, both teams are down to academy outhalfs (and look what happened to Ulster at the weekend and they have Pienaar).

Eh up, I'll make it easier for you.... as you're in a quandry about agreeing with me and the rest of us but not being in a position to be seen to agree, as you think you're damned if you and damned if you don't, if you know what I mean. So I'll make it easy for you, I don't care who tells him his time is over, whether it's Kidney, O'Connell, or that beast without a human face - the IRFU!!! The point continues to be, O'Gara is no longer first option, cover, or emergency requirement. He is not fulfilling any of those roles, he is being chosen by a man who needs to give the next line down their time on the bench.

If O'Gara was working as a fail safe winner of close run matches then there might be a case. We're losing more than we're winning - still. There is no risk in trying the future when the present is losing. None. That time has long since arrived.

Hang on, I'll make it easier for you. ROG has to do what he is told because he is under contract to the IRFU until the end of this season.

I'd still think it wouldn't be right to throw a young, inexperienced player into a game like that. Think how upset Tom Court is over the whole Twickenham game last year even though everyone knows that he isn't really a tighthead and everyone mentions it wasn't his fault he still seems to feel he is blamed for it. How well would someone like Madigan deal with that. By the way, wasn't Jackson ruled out by injury anyway.

The Twickenham thing is completely different. That was playing an experienced LH prop in the wrong position. This is about playing a young, up and coming 10 in his position with lots of experienced players around him. Completely different proposition!!!

Sin é wrote:

Notch wrote:It's kind of begging the question though Sin- if Keatley should be ruled out for a few stinkers, why does O'Gara still get picked after a season of consecutive stinkers?

He hasn't had any stinkers against teams like the Scarlets (home or away).

Anyway, I'm not ruling him out because of the stinkers - I'm responding to your contention that Keatley has been brilliant for Munster this season.

Gotta make two points in response to this;

1) Yes he has. I haven't see him have a good game. His performance in the home defeat against Cardiff in Cork was as bad as I've seen any 10 in the Pro12 this season
2) I'm not contending Keatley has been brilliant- just that he's been consistently better than ROG. How can we even have a discussion if you deliberately or accidentally fail to understand simple points like this?

It'll just get to be- yes he is! No he isn't! Yes he is! We can't engage with a broken record. You need to articulate what exactly ROG has done in the past year of rugby to earn a position in the Ireland team.

You must be joking about the experienced players around him!

9 Conor Murray 23 (about 12 caps)
10 Jackson/Madigan
11 Keith Earls (probably the worst player to grace a rugby pitch - the Ulster fan site have loads of threads dedicated as to how he isn't even AIL level).
12 D'Arcy - long past it
13 BOD - hopefully he isn't injured
14 Craig Gilroy - 21 - 3/4 caps
15 Kearney - not back to his best yet from a serious injury.

Young players are not going to be able to cope with the criticism. Look at the amount of abuse Keith Earls is at the receiving end of.

I'll say this again Sin; You need to articulate what exactly ROG has done in the past year of rugby to earn a position in the Ireland team.

You are going to convince precisely no-one if you can only be negative about the other contenders whilst failing to make a case for why ROG deserves to play international rugby.

Notch wrote:I'll say this again Sin; You need to articulate what exactly ROG has done in the past year of rugby to earn a position in the Ireland team.

You are going to convince precisely no-one if you can only be negative about the other contenders whilst failing to make a case for why ROG deserves to play international rugby.

I'll double dare you, and make it easier for you one more time .

The IRFU don't pick the players, the IRFU give the contracts on advice from Coaches about who they think they'll be needing. Kidney is not commanded NOT to choose from non-centrally contracted players. He chooses and I repeat he chooses low risk names and fails to come in with the requisite high win count.

The policy of low risk isn't paying its way. Better the risk, the losses, the learning and the new hope of salvation into the future.

despite your injuries I think the jury is out on this game.

Ireland have some class, and your wolfhounds show that you're not lacking depth.

I think this could be a banana skin for Scotland if they want to get straight home victories, they have to be careful and keep focused!

I think this will be a very tight game, I hope Scotland can pull another victory out, then it's a sure sign of progress. I think there'll maybe be 5 points in it tops!

If Ireland want to win they have to boss the breakdown, England showed that Scotland really struggle against aggression there. Scotland have to work on possession retention if they want to win. Despite a few cracking tries, 40% possession really isn't good enough, defensive victories are impressive but don't always work. We just need to be more patient with the ball and kick at the right moments.

Meanwhile, back in the real world........... O'Gara is by no means the major issue or the major problem. We've a hatful more to worry about than a cameo by O'Gara. He didn't lose us the game - the sulking guys behind him had their part in that one.

Sin é wrote:You must be joking about the experienced players around him!

9 Conor Murray 23 (about 12 caps)
10 Jackson/Madigan
11 Keith Earls (probably the worst player to grace a rugby pitch - the Ulster fan site have loads of threads dedicated as to how he isn't even AIL level).
12 D'Arcy - long past it
13 BOD - hopefully he isn't injured
14 Craig Gilroy - 21 - 3/4 caps
15 Kearney - not back to his best yet from a serious injury.

Young players are not going to be able to cope with the criticism. Look at the amount of abuse Keith Earls is at the receiving end of.

9. Conor Murray (16 Caps)
10. Paddy Jackson/Ian Madigan (0 Caps)
11. Luke Fitzgerald (23 Caps)
12. Gordon D'Arcy (73 Caps)
13. Brian O'Driscoll (122 Caps)
14. Andrew Trimble (49 Caps)
15 Rob Kearney (43 Caps)

That would be my backline for Scotland... I had thought about Luke Marshall but a bridge too far for new 10 and 12.

Notch wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Notch wrote:It's kind of begging the question though Sin- if Keatley should be ruled out for a few stinkers, why does O'Gara still get picked after a season of consecutive stinkers?

He hasn't had any stinkers against teams like the Scarlets (home or away).

Anyway, I'm not ruling him out because of the stinkers - I'm responding to your contention that Keatley has been brilliant for Munster this season.

Gotta make two points in response to this;

1) Yes he has. I haven't see him have a good game. His performance in the home defeat against Cardiff in Cork was as bad as I've seen any 10 in the Pro12 this season

and have you seen all his games - if you have then you must know he missed a fair few because he picked up a leg injury against Racing Metro (probably a reoccurance of the one he got against Ulster in the HCup QF last season).

2) I'm not contending Keatley has been brilliant- just that he's been consistently better than ROG. How can we even have a discussion if you deliberately or accidentally fail to understand simple points like this?

I haven't said that Keatley should not be picked because he has had shockers. I said that the guy has major confidence issues to be a top outhalf. If I was him I think I might concentrate on playing at 12.

It'll just get to be- yes he is! No he isn't! Yes he is! We can't engage with a broken record. You need to articulate what exactly ROG has done in the past year of rugby to earn a position in the Ireland team.

ROG is an emergency player. He didn't get a minute against Wales last week. While Sexton might be a shoo in for the Lions, he really isn't a top international outhalf, so he needs as much time as he can get to turn him into one.

ROG from what I read had a very good game against the Babarians and he did pretty well against New Zealand particuarly in the 2nd Test.

He didn't have a great autumn series - but then it was alway going to be hard to come back in and make an impact coming back from leg injury he picked up against Racing.

Now tell me what has Paddy Jackson (apparently injured anyway) or Ian Madigan done to earn a spot warming the bench for Ireland?

Played better than ROG this season. Thats it. Thats all there is to say.

SecretFly wrote:I'll double dare you, and make it easier for you one more time .

The IRFU don't pick the players, the IRFU give the contracts on advice from Coaches about who they think they'll be needing. Kidney is not commanded NOT to choose from non-centrally contracted players. He chooses and I repeat he chooses low risk names and fails to come in with the requisite high win count.

The policy of low risk isn't paying its way. Better the risk, the losses, the learning and the new hope of salvation into the future.

Kilcoyne, Zebo, O'Mahoy & Gilroy are risky calls (all very young). Up to recently Kidney was castigated for continuing to pick Murray who many supporters claimed he should be sent back to Munster to learn how to pass

Do we want the same for Jackson & Madigan?

It would also be interesting to know how much influence the provinces have in who is selected. It would be interesting to see how Leinster would fare without Sexton & Madigan over the next few games. We all saw what happened to Ulster last weekend and they had Pienaar (who is now injured). They could be down to Olding & Niall O'Connor in 2 weeks time and the U20s struggling with an inside centre playing as outhalf (though fair play, they managed the win against England).

Notch wrote:Played better than ROG this season. Thats it. Thats all there is to say.

Were you stamping your little foot and curling your slip when posting that?

Sin é wrote:

SecretFly wrote:I'll double dare you, and make it easier for you one more time .

The IRFU don't pick the players, the IRFU give the contracts on advice from Coaches about who they think they'll be needing. Kidney is not commanded NOT to choose from non-centrally contracted players. He chooses and I repeat he chooses low risk names and fails to come in with the requisite high win count.

The policy of low risk isn't paying its way. Better the risk, the losses, the learning and the new hope of salvation into the future.

Kilcoyne, Zebo, O'Mahoy & Gilroy are risky calls (all very young). Up to recently Kidney was castigated for continuing to pick Murray who many supporters claimed he should be sent back to Munster to learn how to pass

Do we want the same for Jackson & Madigan?

It would also be interesting to know how much influence the provinces have in who is selected. It would be interesting to see how Leinster would fare without Sexton & Madigan over the next few games. We all saw what happened to Ulster last weekend and they had Pienaar (who is now injured). They could be down to Olding & Niall O'Connor in 2 weeks time and the U20s struggling with an inside centre playing as outhalf (though fair play, they managed the win against England).

Pienaar is back for Zebre. And Olding did well on Friday night. So I don't see that as a problem.

But the fact is they are calls in areas where we have a lot of depth. Back row for example you could pick from (if all fit): Ferris, Henry, O'Brien, McLaughlin, Heaslip, Wilson, O'Mahony, Henry plus all the younger lads like Ruddock, O'Donnell, Henderson etc Or wing: Bowe, Trimble, Zebo, Gilroy, Earls, McFadden, Fitzgerald plus a host more. Even Kilcoyne is in a position of strength!

He hasn't made the tough choices, like Sexton's understudy, or who replaces D'Arcy/BOD or who claims the 5 jersey when POC retires. McCarthy is the incumbent, but he hasn't given guys like Tuohy a good chance. Albeit injuries have paid way to some of those but it doesn't excuse not giving guys like Jackson or Madigan time in the past year. One of them could have gone to NZ and gotten some experience, but no Kidney stuck with Radge.......

Sin é wrote:

Notch wrote:Played better than ROG this season. Thats it. Thats all there is to say.

Were you stamping your little foot and curling your slip when posting that?

No Sin- you see, this isn't personal. I dislike O'Gara but if I thought he was the best option I'd be calling for him to start. There is no room for sentiment in rugby, good or bad.