2013 version 2.0 Wales vs England bickering thread.

[Biltong]

First topic message reminder :

Carry on your bickering here.

I was going to summarise the previous thread, but going through a thousand posts and ultimately it ends on goats, sheep on your 18th brithday that hangs around longer than strippers doesn't say much for the rest of the content.

Enjoy.

[Triangulation]

The bickering will never stop.

The weapons may change when England notch up a Slam or two and/or the welsh get some wins over SH opponents.

The England v Wales test head to head stats are incredibly even.

I think it is a secret love in really.

[Jimpy]

Perhaps Wales should be less concerned with chalking up Slams and more worried about their inability to beat the SH sides? In other words to raise their standards rather than just routinely lose to sides who are either at or below their level, like Fiji and Samoa.
.

Fixed.

[RubyGuby]

Bilton - The history of the 5 and 6 Nations is immeasurable amnd to see a poster try to devalue a Grand Slam is nothing more than laughable - Try telling Bill Bueamont and his mates that. It is one of the greatest achievements for NH players. The trivialisation is laughable and borne out of the fact that Wales has recently won 3. Jealousy is such a funny thing to watch on here

[lostinwales]

Just watch how great a Slam will be if England manage it

Nah its just a stepping stone on the way to making a challenge for the RWC in 2015. It will be an achievement - but its not everything

[RubyGuby]

Well Jimp, we've managed to turn you over on the last 2 occasions and didn't finish 8th in the RWC

[Scrumpy]

This is just a stepping stone for this team, it would be nice to win the slam but I'd take the Championship and a defeat to Wales if it means we knock Wales out of the RWC in 2015.

[RubyGuby]

If a Slam doesn't matter to you why get excited about the DVD before the last game is played

[Jimpy]

Well Jimp, we've managed to turn you over on the last 2 occasions and didn't finish 8th in the RWC

As long as we beat the English....

[Biltong]

Are you sure there will be a DVD, these days you purchase it at one of these online stores and just download it.

[Barney McGrew did it]

The comp is done, Wales ambition is to beat Scotland and then England in Cardiff and for them after last year's run, that would be a fantastic 6 Nations. England must win the Slam, anything else will not do.

Why?

Most predictions from outsiders saw England winning their 3 home games and maybe sneak a win away from home. This has almost been achieved and England are clear favourites for the title. So long as they beat Italy this will have been a very good championship for England. Should they then beat Wales it would be a fantastic one.

Oh dear, this is why England don't win Slams and haven't since ?....on the one hand everyone is nervously pretending they don't care about the Slam and on the other they can't help themselves planning their celebratory DVDs.

For England in their current form to win the championship in defeat to Wales in Cardiff, choking on the Grand Slam again but 'winning' it by PD is nothing short of a pyhrric victory. It will be victory with a small v, winning with a w, the Grand Slam DVDs can't really be replaced by 'England 6 Nations Champions' DVDs can they? Everyone who has felt the Slam knows that the 6 Nations is about the Slam and those that don't just don't get the competition and mitigate it to explain their failings.

It will be inexplicable and inexcusable for England not to take what they deserve; like NZ choking on Webb Ellis, to consistently fail at the final hurdle. For Wales it is a winner takes all game, there is no pressure, the Slam is off but for us after last years horrible annus, to win 4/5 is a great end to the season. If we can beat Scots we will have one thing on our minds and that is beating England at home, anything else is gravy. But, you self obssessed English fans who think that all we exist for is to beat England, don't kid yourselves; Wales are the Grand Slam exponents of the 6 Nations, we know the pain and glory and for us the Slam is all that counts.

That's the game, them's the stakes.

Your missing a vital point - for Wales the GS is the pinnacle of performance, for England it's the WC. As an England fan I'd gladly give up 4 GS (provided we finished in the top 2) for one WC final - no competition. England want the RWC'15, the GS would be kinda nice.

[Scrumpy]

Wales need to think outside the box.

[100%beefy]

I agree with Triangulation.

The record shows the winner of a trophy, next to it it could say Grandslam next to it, but it doesn't influence the record books.

A slam is great in the sense that it improves overall win ratio's for the year.

Like I said, some people just don't get it

[Biltong]

Jimpy, you and I overstepped the boundary, I will remove our remarks.

My apology if I offended anyone.

[100%beefy]

Wales need to think outside the box.

How wonderfully enigmatic inviting response...how exactly?

[mystiroakey]

beefy you gear your goal posts to what you have acheived..

I think the best people to judge would our lads in the SH..

like Bilty , aucks etc!! yo

They also have other goal posts for there own teams as well.

NZ care about win records- due to there great one(and the fact that untillr ecently underachieved in the RWC)

South africa are/were in the tri nations.. Any grand slam for them is seriously difficult!!

so its all about the win!! wanting GS's in that is like wanting 100 pt wins

[100%beefy]

Jimpy, you and I overstepped the boundary, I will remove our remarks.

My apology if I offended anyone.

Real immature posturing this time

Frankly pathetic.

Now, how do we regard South Africa with it's strong 'human rights' record.....

[ScarletSpiderman]

Wales need to think outside the box.

How wonderfully enigmatic inviting response...how exactly?

I have give that great thought. I believe it is best done by openning the flaps of the box and climbing out before thinking.

[ScarletSpiderman]

beefy you gear your goal posts to what you have acheived..

I think the best people to judge would our lads in the SH..

like Bilty , aucks etc!! yo

They also have other goal posts for there own teams as well.

NZ care about win records- due to there great one(and the fact that untillr ecently underachieved in the RWC)

South africa are/were in the tri nations.. Any grand slam for them is seriously difficult!!

so its all about the win!! wanting GS's in that is like wanting 100 pt wins

In the SH do South Africa have to deal with nonesnece about them being dross for not being able to trounce the NH sides constantly?

[100%beefy]

beefy you gear your goal posts to what you have acheived..

I think the best people to judge would our lads in the SH..

like Bilty , aucks etc!! yo

They also have other goal posts for there own teams as well.

NZ care about win records- due to there great one(and the fact that untillr ecently underachieved in the RWC)

South africa are/were in the tri nations.. Any grand slam for them is seriously difficult!!

so its all about the win!! wanting GS's in that is like wanting 100 pt wins

Okay you just mad emy point again

We are way past winning 6 Nations, we do that at will...we are SLAMMERS, we don't just win it we blow everyone else away. You guys with your record since 2003 have no idea what being in that position is, except being where you are which is the bridesmaid but rarely the bride so you too gear your goal to your goalposts. To you winning is enough because you haven't been winning...we are much firther down the road of 6 Nations achievement and for us only a Slam would do (though i would make an excpetion thsi year! )

[RubyGuby]

The Sixties and Seventies were dark times for English rugby. While Wales were enjoying a golden era, each turning year across two decades brought unremitting disappointment for those who follow the Red Rose.

England needed a leader of substance to lead them out of the darkness … that man was Bill Beaumont. The Fylde lock was a mere five-year-old when fellow Lancastrian, Eric Evans, led England to the clean sweep in 1957 but now, 23 years on, he stood on the brink of ending the drought.

Beaumont had first been handed the poisoned chalice of the England captaincy in 1978 and the cycle of failure did not abate – third and fourth place finishes failed to show the promise of things to come. England’s confused selection policy did not help, with players going in and out of the team like revellers at a fairground.

The key to the 1980 triumph lay in the appointment of school teacher Mike Davis as coach the previous autumn. It was an unlikely move but the combination of two unassuming characters sparked something in a talented group.

“Mike was a top man, a fantastic character who should have been made coach for a lot longer,” says No.8 John Scott. “Mike and Billy worked really well together – two of the nicest men you could wish to meet.”

“Yes, Mike did a great job,” agrees Paul Dodge, who played alongside Leicester clubmate Clive Woodward in that Grand Slam side. “He came straight from England Schools, which was a bit different, but he had the respect of the players. He was a schoolmaster by profession but he did not act that way with us. Bill and Mike were very close. Mike was forward-orientated and very articulate. Billy gelled with him, and it showed.”

The Davis influence resonated in a mighty pack, built on the solid foundations of Fran Cotton and Phil Blakeway at prop and Peter Wheeler at hooker, with Beaumont in the engine room next to the late Maurice Colclough.


John Scott in action for England

Scott recalls that bristling combination of strength, power, experience and know-how: “Maurice was an outstanding athlete, while Billy was the workhorse and then we had Nigel Horton as back-up … one of the best technical second rows we’ve ever had.

“We had guys who had so much skill and ability in that pack. ‘Nearo’ (Tony Neary) was on a different planet, Roger Uttley was a fantastic guy and Wheeler was before his time as a hooker.”

Scott, himself, was in his prime playing in an awesome Cardiff side, who would win the Welsh Cup three times in the next four years.

The road to the Grand Slam was a tumultuous one. France and Wales, the heavyweights of the era, were beaten in desperately close, fractious matches at Parc des Princes and Twickenham respectively and then there was a month-long wait for the climax, a trip to Murrayfield to face a Scotland side desperate to deny the auld enemy. For the Celtic nations England’s demise over those two decades was a source of great satisfaction.

In the circumstances, the welcome north of the border was surprisingly friendly, according to Dodge: “I remember that we stayed in a hotel outside the city and they baked us a giant cake! It was not what we were expecting – very nice and not very Scottish to a visiting English side!”

Full-back Andy Irvine had been chosen to lead Scotland for the first time and, faced by a vaunted pack, he admitted afterwards that the strategy had been to run the legs off the big English forwards. That Scotland failed to put the plan fully into operation was due to the organisation and skill of Beaumont’s men. A mighty white umbrella enveloped the ball and strangled the life out of the Scots in the first half-an-hour. It was a period of play as impressive as any in Five Nations history.

But it was not all down to the forwards, Steve Smith and John Horton kicked well and Woodward’s silky running was a factor in both the opening two tries for wings John Carleton, who was to have his day of days, and Mike Slemen.

“I really enjoyed playing with Clive,” adds Dodge. The 1980 Grand Slam was the initial mark made by Woodward on the international stage; he would go on to win two Lions caps in South Africa that summer and the rest is rugby history. Currently he is plotting British athletes’ success at the Olympics. So, was there any hint on that day 32 years ago of the great accolades that would come the Leicester centre’s way?

Emphatically not, is Scott’s view: “Not a flicker – if he’s a genius then 22 others are sleeping giants. In his mind he was always the greatest but ‘Dodgy’ was the real player.”

Dusty Hare’s reliable boot slotted both conversions and England were 12-0 up. England marched on, smothering any Scottish advances in their tracks and dominating the set-pieces. Beaumont and Davis’ plan was going like clockwork and England were playing like winners; a thoroughly unfamiliar feeling for most wearing the white shirt, even if elsewhere they had found success in spades.

The Leicester contingent of Dodge, Woodward and Wheeler had been involved in English Cup victories. Beaumont, Cotton, Uttley, Neary, Smith, Carleton and Slemen had all been in the North side that beat the All Blacks earlier that season. Uttley and Cotton were Lions on the triumphant 1974 tour of South Africa.

“I don’t think a lot of those that came through after us knew what we went through in those days,“ reveals Scott. “When we played, Billy’s team talk would be, ‘come on lads, we haven’t beaten this lot for 23 years’, ‘come on lads, we haven’t beaten this lot for 15 years’. I remember looking around the dressing room in disbelief at the players in that side and thinking how on earth have we not beaten anyone for so long?

“I learned more in three years playing with Uttley and Neary than with anyone.”

With half-an-hour on the clock Scotland were already facing a massive task and the situation became grave when England notched a third try. A scrum close to the home line was going only one way, Scott controlled the ball at the base but rather than waiting for a probable pushover, he popped the ball up for Smith, who put Carleton over for his second score.

England were in total control and Scotland were seemingly powerless to prevent the Grand Slam which, with no World Cup in those days, was then the ultimate prize for any player in the Northern Hemisphere.

“It always amazed me, we had used that move so often – I would pick up, feed to Steve and John would go over – yet I couldn’t understand how people didn’t work it out,” jokes Scott. “Having that big lead made it feel like it was like a game of snooker – I’ve got the points on the board, you can’t get past me.”

Irvine got Scotland on the board with a penalty but Hare put over two of his own and shortly after half-time the title was virtually in Beaumont’s grasp, as his forward machine ground their way across Murrayfield to set up Smith for England’s fourth touchdown.

Would Scotland accept defeat? Not a bit of it. Possession may have been scarce but when they got the ball Irvine’s men attacked with vigour and spirit. A classy back-line including the talents of John Rutherford, Roy Laidlaw, David Johnston, Jim Renwick, Bruce Hay and Keith Robertson, alongside their skipper, tested England’s resolve.

“They were a good side. They played a very open style of game. We were in confident mood and played very well but Scotland came back strongly at us,” admits Dodge.

Scotland were rewarded for their adventure with a pair of tries that raised the metaphorical roof at the famously open-sided Murrayfield circa 1980. First, a stirring piece of continuity led to the elongated frame of Allan Tomes galloping over. The second was a piece of individual artistry by the gliding Rutherford. Both were converted by Irvine, it was down to 18-23 and England sides of old could have wilted under the onslaught. Not this one.

“We were not going to lose – if we had lost it from there I think we would have all packed up the game,” states Scott.

Hare kicked another penalty to ease the nerves and the rubber stamp was made by Carleton, with a landmark hat-trick try – the first time an England player had dotted down three times in a full international for 56 years.

Dodge concedes, though, that a lucky bounce of the ball played its part: “I just hoofed it up in the air and the ball bounced into John’s hand.” He quips. Carleton sped to the line and his moment of history.

Carleton was one of seven of that team who got the nod to fly to South Africa under Beaumont in the Lions shirt, while Dodge and Smith would be called up during the tour. Beaumont was the first Englishmen to lead the Lions for 50 years. His elevation was unquestioned throughout Britain and Ireland.


Bill Beaumont gathering a crucial ball for England

“Billy led by example. He would be the first over the top and was always at the bottom of rucks and mauls,” says Dodge. “Billy was a great guy–- a real top man,“ adds Scott. “That whole England team was a bunch of characters, everyone was a character and he held it together. Billy was great for us, the management and the supporters – the perfect captain.”

Beaumont’s Lions were beaten 3-1 in an injury ravaged and politically charged series, where the late Dr Jack Matthews was a harassed man. Through it all, though, Beaumont kept his dignity having grown in stature through that Grand Slam campaign. A moment he had worked for five years to achieve.

“It was a feat that meant a lot to us, we knew we had achieved something but I believe it meant a lot more to the likes of Billy, Fran, Nearo and Roger – outstanding players who had not won anything with England, who had failed and failed a lot before.

Dodge adds: “Yes, I was pleased for those world-class players who had played in the Seventies – it was fantastic for them. The quality of those players, who went on Lions tours but never really put it together in an England side, made it fitting for this to happen at the end of some great careers.”

It was the last hurrah for Neary and Uttley, Cotton would retire within a year and Beaumont himself would be forced to quit in 1982 due to injury. It took England a decade to get themselves back in a position to win a Grand Slam, but Will Carling’s 1990 side failed where Beaumont’s men triumphed.

“It didn’t move on after 1980, it stagnated,” says Scott. “There was a lot of talking behind the scenes which finally led to Geoff Cooke coming in and lessons were learnt. It was the amateur days and I think that 1980 team was a prisoner of its own success.

“Where do you go from there? We had some great moments – the 1983 win against the All Blacks – but there was not a lot of planning in those days, the teams were thrown together. There was no progression.”

Perhaps the RFU should have grasped the nettle and utilised Beaumont the organiser to knock teams into shape. They did not, and he went off into a TV career before his subsequent return to the game at the highest levels of administration. Now its chairman, the RFU appears to have a solid, and popular, hand on the tiller.

Tagged Bill Beaumont, England, Grand Slam

[Barney McGrew did it]

who said what now?

[Scrumpy]

Wales need to think outside the box.

How wonderfully enigmatic inviting response...how exactly?

Think bigger than just England for once would be a start.

After last years 6 Nations I really thought Wales would push on and win in Aus and start to build towards the 2015 RWC, but letting Gatland do the Lions has cost Wales a whole season of development and possible set them back even longer, some players are beginning to look like they have already peaked and their performances are on the decline.

Dark times ahead if this goes on. Plus Football grows ever stronger in Wales kids want to be the next Bale not Biggar.

[ScarletSpiderman]

Ruby - that is one hell of a way to stop a bickering thread . I bet 90% of us have just looked at that and said sod it, lets read another thread.

[mystiroakey]

"(though i would make an excpetion thsi year! Whistle )"

proved my point pal.. you have just changed your goal posts

[100%beefy]

The bickering will never stop.

The weapons may change when England notch up a Slam or two and/or the welsh get some wins over SH opponents.

The England v Wales test head to head stats are incredibly even.

I think it is a secret love in really.

Yeah, like loving your mum but not in the right way

[Biltong]

Jimpy, you and I overstepped the boundary, I will remove our remarks.

My apology if I offended anyone.

Real immature posturing this time

Frankly pathetic.

Now, how do we regard South Africa with it's strong 'human rights' record.....

Ouch.

[mystiroakey]

Ruby - that is one hell of a way to stop a bickering thread . I bet 90% of us have just looked at that and said sod it, lets read another thread.

yeah ,. I wont be reading that jeas.. effortz

[100%beefy]

"(though i would make an excpetion thsi year! Whistle )"

proved my point pal.. you have just changed your goal posts

dear 606v2

Please can i request a new emoticon

A pair of juicy hairy plums

Thank you

Beefy

[RubyGuby]

Ruby - that is one hell of a way to stop a bickering thread . I bet 90% of us have just looked at that and said sod it, lets read another thread.

That was my intention - I could have just said that Beaumont sees his Grand Slam as his greatest achievement just like many players today

[Luckless Pedestrian]

We are way past winning 6 Nations, we do that at will...we are SLAMMERS, we don't just win it we blow everyone else away.

No we don't. Didn't you yourself admit earlier that the last Six Nations side we beat well was Scotland in 2005?

[100%beefy]

Wales need to think outside the box.

How wonderfully enigmatic inviting response...how exactly?

Think bigger than just England for once would be a start.

After last years 6 Nations I really thought Wales would push on and win in Aus and start to build towards the 2015 RWC, but letting Gatland do the Lions has cost Wales a whole season of development and possible set them back even longer, some players are beginning to look like they have already peaked and their performances are on the decline.

Dark times ahead if this goes on. Plus Football grows ever stronger in Wales kids want to be the next Bale not Biggar.

First bit....egotistical rubbish. Only an arrogant Englsih fan woudl assert that. Get a grip, England is not the be all and end all of NH rugby and for me the behcmark is beating France

Second bit.......I agree, WRU and Lewis shoudl be held accountable

[mystiroakey]

"England is not the be all and end all of NH rugby and for me the behcmark is beating France"

You are really trying to believe that as well!

[Scrumpy]

100%Beefy

It is a bickering thread I had to throw something in there to stir it.

[100%beefy]

We are way past winning 6 Nations, we do that at will...we are SLAMMERS, we don't just win it we blow everyone else away.

No we don't. Didn't you yourself admit earlier that the last Six Nations side we beat well was Scotland in 2005?

I was referring to the performance in the comp not individual games

Being on the Welsh rollercoaster has cost me my nails, some hair, several nice whisky glasses and at least one argument with my neighbours...I hate the way we win games as it is so exhausting and nervewracking, but i love the way we win competitions, by glorious gusset tingling Grand Slams, not by calculations of who scored more points.

[100%beefy]

"England is not the be all and end all of NH rugby and for me the behcmark is beating France"

You are really trying to believe that as well!

ripe and hairy plums x 2

[100%beefy]

100%Beefy

It is a bickering thread I had to throw something in there to stir it.

how very daring of you

[mystiroakey]

Beefy you are gonna be celebrating more than your win last year if you can stop england from winning the slam and you knows it.

You will be on here celebrating a moral victory..

Not one englishman would do that if the roles were reveresed

[Luckless Pedestrian]

Sorry Mysti, but yes there would. There'd be plenty of English WUMs saying that Wales couldn't really call themselves champions because they hadn't beaten England.

[Scrumpy]

Here's another one Beefy.

With Swansea winning the league cup and Cardiff looking likely contenders for promotion into the Premiership I can't see Wales ever really being serious contenders for the RWC as they simple don't have the strength in depth as it is within their squad, with Football growing ever stronger and attendances for domestic rugby already on its ass Rugby is dead in the water in Wales, as kids want to play football.

Looks like Wales will have to field more English born players (public schoolboy toffs) than ever before.

[100%beefy]

Beefy you are gonna be celebrating more than your win last year if you can stop england from winning the slam and you knows it.

You will be on here celebrating a moral victory..

Not one englishman would do that if the roles were reveresed

Sure you wouldn't strokey

Moral? Why moral? And I can assure you i won't be gloating as in that event, i will regard it as a missed opportunity for Wales, bar 40 minutes of village v Ireland, to win yet another Slam.

[100%beefy]

Here's another one Beefy.

With Swansea winning the league cup and Cardiff looking likely contenders for promotion into the Premiership I can't see Wales ever really being serious contenders for the RWC as they simple don't have the strength in depth as it is within their squad, with Football growing ever stronger and attendances for domestic rugby already on its ass Rugby is dead in the water in Wales, as kids want to play football.

Looks like Wales will have to field more English born players (public schoolboy toffs) than ever before.

Y A W N

[mystiroakey]

Sorry Mysti, but yes there would. There'd be plenty of English WUMs saying that Wales couldn't really call themselves champions because they hadn't beaten England.

Ok i will conceade!

[LondonTiger]

and yet again, someone so arrogant they believe a opposition team only played well because their team let them.

Face it, Ireland blew you away, and then relaxed and let you get a smidgen of self respect back

[100%beefy]

and yet again, someone so arrogant they believe a opposition team only played well because their team let them.

Face it, Ireland blew you away, and then relaxed and let you get a smidgen of self respect back

Whatever you think Tiger msut be right

[Scrumpy]

and yet again, someone so arrogant they believe a opposition team only played well because their team let them.

Face it, Ireland blew you away, and then relaxed and let you get a smidgen of self respect back

Spot on LT

[ScarletSpiderman]

and yet again, someone so arrogant they believe a opposition team only played well because their team let them.

Face it, Ireland blew you away, and then relaxed and let you get a smidgen of self respect back

Or someone so blind that they can't accept that Wales let themselves down and then rectified the problem that they claim "Face it, Ireland blew you away, and then relaxed and let you get a smidgen of self respect back ". Double standards?

[Scrumpy]

Here's another one Beefy.

With Swansea winning the league cup and Cardiff looking likely contenders for promotion into the Premiership I can't see Wales ever really being serious contenders for the RWC as they simple don't have the strength in depth as it is within their squad, with Football growing ever stronger and attendances for domestic rugby already on its ass Rugby is dead in the water in Wales, as kids want to play football.

Looks like Wales will have to field more English born players (public schoolboy toffs) than ever before.

Y A W N

Lazy comeback Beefy!

I must be close to the mark with that one I guess, truth always hurts.

[100%beefy]

and yet again, someone so arrogant they believe a opposition team only played well because their team let them.

Face it, Ireland blew you away, and then relaxed and let you get a smidgen of self respect back

Spot on LT

How do you manage to keep awake?

Y A W N

[Luckless Pedestrian]

My mum's English. I really must punch her more often.

[mystiroakey]

As I poined out Bale is a sore point to the welsh rugger fans.. there little boys are gonna be playing wendy ball and dreaming of fast women and aston martins

[Sponsored content]