Glasgow underrated?

First topic message reminder :

Glasgow sit a very good 2nd in the Pro 12, made the play offs the year before.

They have a very good first XV and a good squad. Some of thier players are very high class as well, yet I don't think they get the respect they deserve yet.

Ok they haven't done much in the H-cup and that is the stage to get noticed.

They have the best defense in the league (points conceded and one of the best points scored), yet yet are very under rated by opposing fans (think Glasgow fans are happy to go under the radar at present, and quietly go about thier buiness).

My point is why do teams like Scarlets garner respect and Glasgow haven't quite got this same level yet, and have outperformed them the last 2 years (not to single out Scarlets just using an example)?

A team that finishes 2nd in the Top 14 or Jeff, is one most people look to avoid yet I don't think Glasgow will receive the same respect as the other 2 teams that finish second in thier league.

Is it because these other teams are better supported therefore get more media hype, and Glasgow are outside the limelight? Is it becuase of Glasgows failure recently on the European stage to make other fans take notice? Are other teams worried about facing them yet, and are English wishing to avoid them in the H-cup.

What do Glasgow need to do to earn it?
2nd in league would do it?
Get to play off final?
Get to knock outs in H-cup?
Beat a big English/French team for the media to take notice?
Any of the above?

Be-shocked;

15 Goode < Hogg
14 Ashton < Maitland
13 Tomkins > Bennett (for now at least)
12 Barritt > Dunbar (for now at least)
11 Strettle < DTH
10 Farrell > Jackson or Weir
9 Wigglesworth < Matawalu or Cusiter

8 Joubert > Strauss or Wilson (just)
7 Fraser < Barclay or Fusaro
6 Brown > Harley (just)
5 Botha > Swinson (marginal)
4 Borthwick = Kellock
3 Stevens = Cusack
2 Brits = MacArthur
1 Vunipola < Grant or Welsh

Glasgow have a great squad, unlucky at the beginning of the HC with injuries but they've shown their true form in the Rabo. Last year they were incredibly tough to breakdown (best D in Rabo) but didn't have enough fire power to challenge top teams but that's changed (Wilson, Strauss, Niko, Bennett, DTH, Maitland, Hogg).

Saracens rightly deserve to be in the top bracket of European clubs right now but it's taken 2 or 3 seasons to get there, let's see where this Glasgow side will be in a couple seasons time.

I think you overhype your side a little too much. If your players were that good why did you struggle so badly in the HC?

I look at most of your XV and go who? Guys like Matawalu,Strauss,cusack aren't proven class players.

You evidently haven't seen Stevens lately. Him and Vunipola have been a formidable combo. Both in decent form.

I didn't compare Fraser to Barclay. Though I think Fraser will be an English International in the next year or so if he keeps up the upward trajectory.
Brown is the Scottish captain. He is better than Harley.

I normally look at the unit as a whole - Sarries frontrow as a combo - stronger, 2nd row as a combo stronger. Back row as an unit - stronger. Halfbacks - no contest surely? Centres - again no contest. Back three is close but Strettle's clear superiority makes the Sarries back three stronger.

Don't even talk about the bench and squad depth - Glasgow outclassed there.

beshocked wrote:I think you overhype your side a little too much. If your players were that good why did you struggle so badly in the HC?

I look at most of your XV and go who? Guys like Matawalu,Strauss,cusack aren't proven class players.

You evidently haven't seen Stevens lately. Him and Vunipola have been a formidable combo. Both in decent form.

I didn't compare Fraser to Barclay. Though I think Fraser will be an English International in the next year or so if he keeps up the upward trajectory.
Brown is the Scottish captain. He is better than Harley.

I normally look at the unit as a whole - Sarries frontrow as a combo - stronger, 2nd row as a combo stronger. Back row as an unit - stronger. Halfbacks - no contest surely? Centres - again no contest. Back three is close but Strettle's clear superiority makes the Sarries back three stronger.

Don't even talk about the bench and squad depth - Glasgow outclassed there.

Beshocked - he explained about the HC and honestly, if you don't think Matawalu is class then just watch the Glasgow v Ulster game last week. He's had four consecutive man of the match awards. An unbelievable player!

beshocked wrote:
I look at most of your XV and go who?

I believe that this, in a nutshell, is the problem.

I don't know much about the Brumbies or the Blues this Super 15 season.

That doesn't stop them having rather good players, however.

They don't suddenly stop being excellent because I, personally, happen to have no knowledge of them.

Oh right the whole injury excuse. You Scots obviously think Glasgow are a great side. I will be honest I don't watch any pro 12 but I do follow the HC and internationals. Glasgow in the HC are not a big threat going by results. Up to your team to change perceptions.

You can say that your players are amazing and as good as a side in the HC quarter finals but it doesn't get you there. You got to prove it by beating the best of England,Ireland,Wales, France and Italy. Playing the injury excuse card is not good.

Talking about man of the match awards during the international windows vs under strength sides?

True form?

George carlin that's different though. These players have to prove their class at a higher level - Hogg and Maitland have done that. Most of these guys in the Sarries side have lots of experience of winning big HC matches. Can your Glasgow lot say the same?

Brown is one of the best flankers in the NH yet in reallybored's eyes he is only marginally better than the rookie Harley?

You think a guy with 30 caps for England and in good from is worse than Cusack? Sheer madness.

A Canadian journeyman is better than a winger who has played for a far stronger country?

DTH is no journeyman, he's pound for pound the best winger in the league at the minute. Just look at the joy it caused when he resigned for Glasgow considering he had offers from English and French top sides... Just behind Visser with tries scored too.

Ask Saints, beshocked...

And where pray tell did Kelly Brown start? Harley is obviously rated internationally as he's displaced Denton and Strockosh from the Scottish team.

Also didn't Ryan Grant give Dan Cole a fairly hard time vs Scotland? Come on the guy will tour with Healy and bench for the Lions... Vunipola is a talent, but Grant is better at the minute.

Cusack ate both Tom Court and Soane Tonguaiha during the Heineken Cup, two international LHs... If you don't rate him now, just wait til he's Scottish Qualified and starts for them.

beshocked wrote:Oh right the whole injury excuse. You Scots obviously think Glasgow are a great side. I will be honest I don't watch any pro 12 but I do follow the HC and internationals. Glasgow in the HC are not a big threat going by results. Up to your team to change perceptions.

You can say that your players are amazing and as good as a side in the HC quarter finals but it doesn't get you there. You got to prove it by beating the best of England,Ireland,Wales, France and Italy. Playing the injury excuse card is not good.

Talking about man of the match awards during the international windows vs under strength sides?

True form?

Piennar is a class act - completely outperformed last Friday so no argument there really. You've admitted you don't watch the Pro 12 or Glasgow in general so why try and argue the toss that they aren't as good as we think?

Oh right so he's the most hyped winger after visser is he?

Brown is at Glasgow no more. Harley is 6 by default till a 7 is fit for Scotland. I reckon the killer bs will start vs Wales.

Grant vs Vunipola is debatable.

Will have to wait and see - the hype is funny.

Matawalu had Pienaar looking average last week, and we know Pienaar is world class.

Ok us Ulster fans are saying Pienaar needs rested and hasn't been at his best. But if you told someone last week there was a world class scrum half on the pitch they woould have said it was Matawalu, a very good buy for Glasgow.

If Glasgow were as good as you think then they would be rated as so - outside the pro12 of course.

Plus surely this is a ulster side missing numerous players. Certainly seen articles of ulster worrying about their absentees and injury woes.

beshocked wrote:If Glasgow were as good as you think then they would be rated as so - outside the pro12 of course.

I'm a Prem (well Falcons so Championship) fan and I rate Glasgow very highly, does that count?

beshocked wrote:Plus surely this is a ulster side missing numerous players. Certainly seen articles of ulster worrying about their absentees and injury woes.

Absentees? Where do you think the bulk of the Glasgow side were on Friday night?

On Scotland Duty: Jackson, Weir, Grant, Hall, Kellock, Harley, Lamont, Hogg, Maitland and others...

Don't let the Ulster fans fool you, Glasgow were missing a lot more 1st XV players than they were.

George Carlin wrote:

beshocked wrote:
I look at most of your XV and go who?

I believe that this, in a nutshell, is the problem.

I don't know much about the Brumbies or the Blues this Super 15 season.

That doesn't stop them having rather good players, however.

They don't suddenly stop being excellent because I, personally, happen to have no knowledge of them.

Here is the nub of your problem. Things that happen outside his focus have no relevance in deciding who is a better team or player.

He has his perceptions about who is good and bad and no matter what happens outside of them winning the HC or WC they will remain ranked in the order that is in his head. No matter how much you try to convince him otherwise.

Oh and by the way, Sarries are the greatest team to have never won the HC. They don't play boring rugby and try to squeeze the like and enjoyment out of every game. That's a myth. (Well it is a myth in fairness, but you know what I mean)

Best to just nod and agree and then get on with your life.

RuggerRadge2611 I think Ulster were missing more with internationals and our injury list, but even with both missing lots of players it's squad depth that wins these games, and Glasgow won.

Glasgow have a starting team that can challange the big boys and a squad that means they can fight it out for a league season as well.

beshocked, your exactly the tpye I mean when I say some under rate Glasgow, its H-cup performances you look for when rating teams, and thats fair enough, Glasgow haven't got a record to have anyone worried about them, but in th eleague over the last 2 years they have show signs they are growing into a team that will worry other fans.

THB Ospreys the league champions, don't get as much respect as Harlequins the Aviva champs.

But rating the 6th in the Aviva as better than 2nd in Pro 12 is laughable.

Although Beshocked is criminally misguided regarding the quality of players at Glasgow (Calling DTH a journey man etc etc...I wonder if he watched any of Canada's games at the world cup?), he does have a point. Until Glasgow progress in Europe they ultimately wont be respected by a lot of people.

I happen to think that they were very unlucky in the Heine this season, but thats by the by. Next season i'm confident we can progress and prove a few people wrong.

beshocked wrote:Depends what you mean by underrated. I wouldn't call Glasgow a top 10 side in Europe.

Glasgow are 2nd in the Pro12. Compare that to the 2nd in the AP and Top 14. Saracens and Clermont are quite clearly stronger. For the record Glasgow have not beaten Saracens contrary to what someone said earlier.

Glasgow have shown they are a pretty good side - 2nd in the pro12 is good but their European record is poor. Saints only lost to them recently because they were chasing the try bonus. Saints are arguably better and they are 6th in the AP. No top 6 AP or Top 6 top 14 side would worry about Glasgow. Why should they? It's been the Big three Irish clubs doing the damage in the HC from the pro12. Scots, welsh and Italians haven't really joined the HC party yet.

Edinburgh were earning respect with their semi final in the HC but this has been extinguished now.

If Glasgow want respect they need to earn it just like Clermont,Ulster,Quins,Saracens,Toulon etc are.

Sarries may have earned respect for their ability to grind out victories, but they've probably lost as much through playing inane music during games and the godawful 'Stand up for the Saracens'. Truly awful.

Beshocked - you really need to start watching some of the pro 12. If you haven't seen Matawalu play, then you're missing out big time. He's the epitome of Fijian flair. Watch from 2:30 onwards https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=whTY18hL7Yc&feature=youtube_gdata_player

GC, how dare you argue with facts such as these! Pls rescind them at once, put your eye patch back on, and lets deal with emotion and subjective opinion, you naughty young man

Watch beshocked explode!!

I would be very confident if Glasgow had to meat Saracens, reading that Saracens have class players and Glasgow haven't is ridiculous, it's just that Glasgow's players are younger and not as well known.
Stevens better than Cusack? give me a break...

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:GC, how dare you argue with facts such as these! Pls rescind them at once, put your eye patch back on, and lets deal with emotion and subjective opinion, you naughty young man

Watch beshocked explode!!

I've given up on this thread, Asbo.

It's not a conversation if people aren't open to ideas. Just a waste of time constantly deflecting a polemic.

I'd be a bit ashamed to be so bluntly judgemental about players and teams that I freely admit to knowing nothing about but I realise that we're not all the same.

Hey ho. Onwards and ever sideways, and all of that.

Jenifer i see the HC as the opportunity for the pro12 sides to pitch their might vs the english and french clubs.

So far in the hc i have seen nothing from glasgow to make me take notice.

The ospreys will get more respect the better they do in Europe just like Glasgow.

Vincent that's what Edinburgh fans said at the beginning of the HC season. Cusack is a young stripling at the tender age of 28.

Hood there is a difference between like and respect.

You want us to respect you then start with beating our teams on a regular basis. Respect for ulster,Munster and Leinster comes from their numerous wins over English sides.

It works both ways - the English and French clubs who do well in the HC are more respected.Do most of you follow much of the AP and Top 14?

GC I think it proves the point of the thread,

Glasgow underrated?

It seams yes by some untill they beat a big English or French team they are nobodies others are willing to give them thier fair dues.

However there's a lot of other tier 3 sides i'd rather be drawn against.

On the contrary kingshu I think this thread shows Glasgow are rated very highly. Just not by me. Glasgow would be one of the tougher tier 3 sides agreed. Though this season in the HC they lived up to their tier.

For Glasgow in my eyes to be rated as a top 10 side in Europe they must get a quarter final

beshocked wrote:For Glasgow in my eyes to be rated as a top 10 side in Europe they must get a quarter final

Agreed.

BUT, I find it very difficult to take your assessment of individual Glasgow players seriously when you admit you haven’t watched them in the Rabo, where they play 80% of their games.

Take Cusack – the man is a beast. He has destroyed every LH I’ve ever seen him come up against, both in the Rabo and the HC. Matt Stevens can’t hold a candle to Big Mike.

To be fair Beshocked I thought Sarries were a decent team, I don't watch the prem, but started taking notice of them as being a good team when they started making the Prem play offs. Maybe Glasgow are due the same respect, having made the play offs last year, and set to make them again this year?

Captain sensible if he's so good then why is he not on the international stage? Do you think Cusack is the best tight head prop in the pro12 then? I can't take assessments of Saracens players unless you've seen them. Have you seen Stevens play recently? Been in decent form.

Kingshu respect from whom? I don't expect respect from Leinster or clermont till we beat them as an example.

If they get to the final or win then perhaps. Plus the trick is to be consistent.

[quote="Captain_Sensible"]

beshocked wrote:


Take Cusack – the man is a beast. He has destroyed every LH I’ve ever seen him come up against, both in the Rabo and the HC. Matt Stevens can’t hold a candle to Big Mike.

Less talk of the Coo please! We'd like him to remain under the radar until he qualifies for Scotland.

[quote="Manky-Flanker"]

Captain_Sensible wrote:

beshocked wrote:


Take Cusack – the man is a beast. He has destroyed every LH I’ve ever seen him come up against, both in the Rabo and the HC. Matt Stevens can’t hold a candle to Big Mike.

Less talk of the Coo please! We'd like him to remain under the radar until he qualifies for Scotland.

Given the size of the man, I think that’ll be tough.

We also don’t know whether he wants to play for Scotland yet. We’ll have to wait until the end of next season to find out.

Beshocked do you think Connacht are a better team than the Exeter Chiefs?

Connacht defeated Harlequins last year. They defeated Biarritz this year. They got three wins in their group and finished with more points than Chiefs.

Earlier this season you were adament that Chiefs were streets ahead of Connacht.

Red stag they are not.

look at the different groups. Exeter had Leinster and clermont. Compare that to Biarritz and Zebre. Quality of group makes a huge difference.

Connacht have still beaten two top teams, on the biggest stage, Chiefs have not.

If your critea for respect is an impression in Europe they Connacht have done that, surley Connacht have gone up in your opinion over the last two years?

Ah but Beshocked this is Zebres first year in Europe. They only appear so bad as they are in such a good league!

Lads. Lads. Will you stop with your reason and logic. It's irrelevant. It has no power over him. It is incapable of penetrating the force field around his brain.

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:
Here is the nub of your problem. Things that happen outside his focus have no relevance in deciding who is a better team or player.

He has his perceptions about who is good and bad and no matter what happens outside of them winning the HC or WC they will remain ranked in the order that is in his head. No matter how much you try to convince him otherwise.

Best to just nod and agree and then get on with your life.

This is like getting a squadron of learned academics to surround a one year old and tell it increasingly substantive and persuasive reasons to not throw its buttered toast on the floor. Perhaps the thing to do is to realise that the one year old does not understand and will continue to butter the floor regardless of the white noise it hears around it as the attention it gets for doing so is fun.

George Carlin wrote:This is like getting a squadron of learned academics to surround a one year old and tell it increasingly substantive and persuasive reasons to not throw its buttered toast on the floor. Perhaps the thing to do is to realise that the one year old does not understand and will continue to butter the floor regardless of the white noise it hears around it as the attention it gets for doing so is fun.

beshocked wrote:Jenifer i see the HC as the opportunity for the pro12 sides to pitch their might vs the english and french clubs.

So far in the hc i have seen nothing from glasgow to make me take notice.

The ospreys will get more respect the better they do in Europe just like Glasgow.

Vincent that's what Edinburgh fans said at the beginning of the HC season. Cusack is a young stripling at the tender age of 28.

Hood there is a difference between like and respect.

You want us to respect you then start with beating our teams on a regular basis. Respect for ulster,Munster and Leinster comes from their numerous wins over English sides.

It works both ways - the English and French clubs who do well in the HC are more respected.Do most of you follow much of the AP and Top 14?

Quite so. I respect the team, but don't particularly like it. I don't like or respect the club's approach to mid-game 'entertainment', which is risible and a consequence of its fans inability to create a genuine atmosphere. In my opinion.

Hehe. I wasn't sure whether it was beshocked or Sin E before i read back, but when I saw George Carlins post I knew it was one of them!

It's a reductive argument anyway. At the start of the season, did Edinburgh deserve more respect than Glasgow because of their European run? Europe is great- but it's too small a sample size of games to base greatness on.

Ultimately you have to look at the league when judging quality- you have to at least take it into account. Normally the Pro12 tells the real story of where teams are at and I would put a lot more stock in it than some.

You might assume that Munster and Ulster are the two best teams in the Pro12 from the Heineken Cup but looking at the playoff race tells us it's not that simple. Similarly us finishing 6th last year was the real verdict on McLaughlins last season and the decision to get a new coach has been validated by improvement despite our European run last year.

Part of the magic of the HC is a good European run can happen to anybody.

beshocked wrote:On the contrary kingshu I think this thread shows Glasgow are rated very highly. Just not by me. Glasgow would be one of the tougher tier 3 sides agreed. Though this season in the HC they lived up to their tier.

For Glasgow in my eyes to be rated as a top 10 side in Europe they must get a quarter final

Thats a silly statement to make. Edinbrugh got to a semi final last year by beating Toulouse, a fantastic win and well earned IMO.

But it would be nonsense to say that Edinburgh are better than Glasgow. Utter nonsense.

Sorry george carlin but I don't think Glasgow are as great a side as you and your pro12 brethren think. I don't think they are as good as Saracens.

I think if they were as good as you make out they wouldn't have done so badly in the HC in let's be honest a pretty average group. 1 win in 6 in an average group is poor. You claim to be better than Saints yet you failed to prove this in the HC.

red stag keep telling yourself that.


Kingshu Exeter are still a club getting their bearings - an ex Championship side who in their 1st HC season were in one of the toughest pools. They are a relatively new club to top level rugby. No shame in 4 losses to two of the best sides in Europe.



4 wins in 12 HC games is not impressive in my opinion - 2 of those wins vs the weakest side in the competition.

Occasionally the weaker sides in the competition pull off a shock or two.

Quins have won 5 out of 6 matches vs Connacht.

Notch Ulster and Munster are two of the best sides. Both have earnt respect because they've shown they have got what it takes to fight on two fronts successively. They fought through two fairly average HC pools.

Ruggerradge when did I say Edinburgh were better than Glasgow? I think the Pro12 and HC clearly show Edinburgh are not as good.

Are Castres, Northampton and Ulster average?

2011 - Northampton make the final of the Heineken Cup
2012 - Ulster make the final of the Heineken Cup

And Castres as we have proven have finished in the top four in France for several years in a row. And Ulster are top of the Pro 12 league. And Saints have been making the playoffs in England for last few years.

So whether you look at domestic or European form it shows that this was not an average group.

red stag it was an average group.

Both Group 2 and Group 5 were the toughest.

Group 1 and 4 were average.

Group 6 is debatable

Group 3 was weak.

Castres have a poor record in Europe. Saints have had a pretty rocky season, currently 6th in the AP. Since their final have not made an impact in Europe. Ulster - they've done well.Glasgow have a very poor record in Europe.

Average - there were tougher HC groups but also at least one weaker too.

All depends what you mean by "average".

Personally I think there was no weak team in that group where easy points could be picked up. There was no Italian team, no Edinburgh, no Sale Sharks, no Exeter Chiefs, no Connacht.

There was no way that a best runner up was coming out of it as all teams were of such an even ability.

From some of the international comments it's not just Glasgow that are underrated. Scotland don't really seem to have earned much respect from their greatest season in 10 years.

Perhaps there is a stain on our Rugby history so great that it will take years to wash away.

red stag I suppose a more apt description would be balanced. A balanced pool.

how would you rate each pool then?

I wouldn't have called Pool 4 a pool of death.

A stronger English side was avoided. A stronger French side too.

Saints did get to the final in 2010-11 but since then have done very little.

Castres have a poor European track record.

Glasgow have a poor European track record.

Ulster have been on an upward curve.

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:From some of the international comments it's not just Glasgow that are underrated. Scotland don't really seem to have earned much respect from their greatest season in 10 years.

Perhaps there is a stain on our Rugby history so great that it will take years to wash away.

2 wins at home and Scotland want respect? Like Glasgow, Scotland need to earn it with a bit of consistency.

Scotland have a poor international record as Glasgow does in the Heineken Cup. You win respect by beating opposition.

Keep winning and people will sit up and take notice.

Scotland have done well to win 2 matches but momentum has to be kept. Beating Wales is imperative. 3 wins in the 6 nations would mark a decent campaign. 4 plus challenging for the 6 nations title would gain more respect.

If Glasgow win the Pro12 they'll also be taken more seriously. Got to back it up though with consistency.

Don't follow Edinburgh: - HC semi final heroes to HC zeroes.

Ospreys are an example of a side who has cracked the Pro12 formula but has not yet done the same in the HC.

Radge, sometimes you have to face facts; for over a decade everything about the SRU (including the pro clubs) has been poorly managed. We have managed to produce good players who every now and then have clicked to produce a good performance, however I believe that this was more by luck than design. This is now starting to change; Glasgow have performed well outside of the HC this year, Edinburgh did very well in HC last year but league performance continued to ring alarm bells and if we get a decent manager in there we have the makings of a good team, there is a real sense of belief in the national team and we are beginning to notch up decent performances that hint that we have finally turned the corner.

It will take a while for some of the more blinkered people who only take note of our teams when theirs are playing ours to realise that this change is, hopefully, afoot. This should be treated as an advantage, not an opportunity to get indignant and shout the odds, we are much better off keeping quiet, putting on a knowing smile and building a winning habit.

Solid8 wrote:Radge, sometimes you have to face facts; for over a decade everything about the SRU (including the pro clubs) has been poorly managed. We have managed to produce good players who every now and then have clicked to produce a good performance, however I believe that this was more by luck than design. This is now starting to change; Glasgow have performed well outside of the HC this year, Edinburgh did very well in HC last year but league performance continued to ring alarm bells and if we get a decent manager in there we have the makings of a good team, there is a real sense of belief in the national team and we are beginning to notch up decent performances that hint that we have finally turned the corner.

It will take a while for some of the more blinkered people who only take note of our teams when theirs are playing ours to realise that this change is, hopefully, afoot. This should be treated as an advantage, not an opportunity to get indignant and shout the odds, we are much better off keeping quiet, putting on a knowing smile and building a winning habit.

....or giving Saracens a right kicking in the Heino next season ?

beshocked wrote:

Notch Ulster and Munster are two of the best sides. Both have earnt respect because they've shown they have got what it takes to fight on two fronts successively. They fought through two fairly average HC pools.

I can't believe I am arguing with a man who will never change his opinions no matter what the facts say.

Munster are having a nightmare of a season. The could not even beat a rubbish team like Saracens. In a weak pool.

They are languishing in 6th place in a league with Glasgow at the top. They are currently 20, YES TWENTY league points behind them.

But because your internal compass says that Munster are a top team and Glasgow are crap..........