Can Ireland beat Italy?

First topic message reminder :

Italy are well overdue beating Ireland and I can see them pushing very hard for a second 6N victory. As an irishman I'll be watching this game very nervously in what may be O driscolls and kidneys last game...

Hi DOD,..well at least you're another Irish face showing up when most other people seem to have jumped a sinking ship!!! So welcome.

Nah, I wasn't screaming for Schmidt...I was screaming for a coach - preferably a youngish SH one rather than the selections??? we have to deal with as 'home-grown' - and certainly not one of the traditional list of World-Renowned-In-Waiting-International-Coaches coming out of retirement to save the day heroes.

That's still my scream, DOD. And a year later having to do the same screaming, well it's downright tiring. Now, as Schmidt is still here and is still a forward thinking SH version of a coach..yeah, I'd take him if he was interested. No worries, mate and all that lingo......

Seems he doesn't want it though, as Irish International stock has taken a nose dive in recent years (for some strange reason that you might elaborate on for me) and he looks to be going home soon enough anyway. So rest easy. He's off the agenda. Relief all round for fans who don't like players getting too smart and uppity about themselves and abilities or trying bloody foreign tricks.

Now, you should know I agree with you about O'Shea. I say it often enough. So yeah, maybe you're right...nobody wants us so let's settle for the guy who still doesn't mind working for us. Class Kidney it is, then. We don't care, we know we're crud. Why fight it? Relax all...take a deep breath and just endure.

DOD wrote:

Tell us Clive do you wish the same around the 12th, or maybe its the faux piety of the free pres crowd along with their sobriety and nice round hats that appeals...

You sound very knowledgeable DOD. I'd assume you've been facebook stalking me except for the fact your assumption is completly wrong. Maybe you should take your magicball back to the shop!

I was unaware that having a dislike of loutish behaviour, and litter and disruption were inextricably linked to specific christian church denominations...

wolfball wrote:DOD, an unknown risk with a new coach is better then a proven failure.

The devil you know is better than the devil you don't know!

Sin é wrote:

wolfball wrote:DOD, an unknown risk with a new coach is better then a proven failure.

The devil you know is better than the devil you don't know!

Not always, Sin. Sometimes it's the devil you know who will seek to convince you of that quote

Nah Clive just wondering out loud.
Fly...two things.
1 do I think we could do with a change of coach? Yes
2 do I think it will make a difference? No.

Why not?
Because the change in how we play as a nation requires a generation to implement. Therefore I cut DK some slack as I don't believe we could do much better. The margins are small between a mediocre championship and a grand slam.

Although the armchair coaches ala George Hook on here know it all...

DOD wrote:Nah Clive just wondering out loud.
Fly...two things.
1 do I think we could do with a change of coach? Yes
2 do I think it will make a difference? No.

Why not?
Because the change in how we play as a nation requires a generation to implement. Therefore I cut DK some slack as I don't believe we could do much better. The margins are small between a mediocre championship and a grand slam.

Although the armchair coaches ala George Hook on here know it all...

It has to be an armchair DOD, the buggers won't hire me!!! I even said I'd work for less than an Taoiseach...but more than an American President. But nope... they wouldn't bite - cheapskates.

So...from the comfort of my armchair, I say the problem is that those small margins you speak about are hitting us in the bullseye much too often in recent years for it to be merely as case of being 'our turn'. We've got the small end of the small margins and the habit is sticking.

I wouldn't characterise you as an armchair pundit. More like Hook on LSD.

Change for the sake of change..

Anyways be careful you might just get what you wish for...

I'm actually less upset with Kidney this year than the previous three. We got it tactically right against France but faded badly. There's not exactly a huge amount of impact on our bench even if Deccie did know how to use it. It's hard to lay the blame on the coaches for the Scotland result when we had so much possession and territory and the players didn't make it count. The unplayable conditions against England suited them much more. And then there's the many many injuries. I don't believe Kidney did as much wrong this year. He really had no luck whatsoever (although we should have had another kicking option on against Scotland, and why was Murray taken off the other day?).

However he is responsible for many of the disappointments over the last few years. The terrible tactics against Wales were ridiculous in some of those games. The unbalanced backrow. The mismanagement of Sexton. The list goes on. And it just seems impossible to imagine a coaching team that is losing so often for so long, and repeatedly failing to fix recurring problems, to to turn it around. We had strong recent records against England, Wales, Scotland and South Africa when he arrived. That's all gone up in smoke on his watch. And losing our winning record against Italy will be yet another unwanted milestone if it happens. It's time for a change. But we'll always have 2009. Ireland's best ever rugby year.

DOD wrote:I wouldn't characterise you as an armchair pundit. More like Hook on LSD.

Change for the sake of change..

Anyways be careful you might just get what you wish for...

Ultimately we're in the same position as we were in 2008. Incumbent coach has run out of credibility and time, but successor isn't clear. Kidney got the job not because he was a popular and highly qualified candidate but because he was the only guy available and willing to take it on (there were serious misgivings about his ability to play anything other than the 'Munster way' and his tactical acumen, which have since been validated in full).

He was the change for the sake of change on his day. He was the guy who got the job by default because no-one else wanted it. And yet, even with all the flaws he has as a coach, he managed to get us organised and playing a brand of Munster-style rugby that got us a Slam. Sometimes it happens a new voice comes in and it's refreshing for the players, and they respond to it. It would be fantastic if we could get a better coach but it's essential we get a different coach regardless. There's a reason almost no international coaches are in situ for five, six years. Things get stale and the opposition figure them out.

I fear we're stuck with Kidney if only on the basis that there's no one else who is there to take the job - would the IRFU do something really radical and offer it to BOD?

Irish Londoner wrote:I fear we're stuck with Kidney if only on the basis that there's no one else who is there to take the job - would the IRFU do something really radical and offer it to BOD?

We did that on our side with MJ. He had his moments but you cant say it was a success. If BOD goes away and earns his spurs as a coach first (and let most of the old guard who he played with move on as well) then it might work.

Irish Londoner wrote:I fear we're stuck with Kidney if only on the basis that there's no one else who is there to take the job - would the IRFU do something really radical and offer it to BOD?

Ah thats ridiculous. I'd rather offer Kidney a life contract than give it to BOD for no other reason that he was a big name player.

I think both DOD and Sin é have now hinted strongly that yeah...perhaps it is time for Kidney to go...... BUT, let's not get rid of him just to get rid of him...and certainly not change him for the sake of changing him.


But if he probably needs to go, that suggests he has a track record to go with the resolve of many Ireland followers that he's had his chance?

Of course it does or else DOD and SIn é wouldn't be even skirting around the inevitability that his time is over. His time is over because he's proven it.

The armchairs weren't doing the coaching - and neither was Kidney's coaching gang for much of his tenure. He's responsible because he's the one getting paid to be so...and choosing his lieutenants. If he is not a coaching coach then he has chosen badly, whatever high opinions we might have of his coaching staff as individuals, or indeed him. His unit hasn't performed..and he brought it together.

And no too in my opinion, as a unit this term and despite the amount of injuries and new players coming in, they still haven't worked. I see the same ol' same ol'.

There were no Plan Bs for any expected comebacks from any opposition - just play what you see in defensive duty and hope for the best that you hold any onslaughts out. Try to get to the bell on your feet! No tactical coaching there to expect the expected and to be prepared for them - physically and mentally and creatively - just bang, bang, bang into contact in midfield and pass the ball from left to right as you do so.

Heavy opposition teams could take that all day and still have smiles on their faces after an entire 6N campaign. This isn't the Nougties... it's a different class of opposition - they won't be broken down by any physicality Ireland can bring to the party, they won't be tired by our seesawing across midfield. The world has moved on.

Plus, our coaches are responsible for the 'greeness' of our first team alternatives too, as they only began to trust them with game time when they knew that the rules meant they had to send 15 players onto the field. Kidney was renowned for keeping practically first 15 on the field up to the last few minutes of most games. Sometimes giving needed run-outs to underlings for 5 minutes or even a few seconds.

Not much choosing or gameplaning was needed to do his duty by the rulebook for this 6N. He had to choose 15 and he chose 15. Throw them on, even though they and you know you don't fully trust them. Hope for the best. We might get a bit of luck. They coach themselves on the field anyway. We just give them the basics of setpieces - the rest is and should be up to them. We might get a bit of luck with the margins.

We didn't - and coaching is not a job for astrologers.

BOD was a bit of a "throw it to the winds" - I just wondered whether it needs someting that radical to turn it round. A proper coach would be better of course.

I think Kidney needs to go, he has had his moments but over the last few seasons he's been getting by more on luck than judgement and this year he's had no luck either.

The injuries haven't helped, most notably Sexton who would probably have kicked a few more points and if we'd beaten Scotland and France this would be no more than internet grumbling - the results would have been response enough. If we lose to Italy and end up with the wooden spoon his position will be untenable.

BOD hasnt coached his side to a Heineken Cup. That disqualifies him. Same as Luke Marshall, he should never have played as many as two games for Ireland yet, he's done nothing in the Heineken Cup.

To be honest I think we exggerate Irelands poor performances as we want Kidney gone.

Truth be told I'm much much MUCH more optimistic about Irish Rugby now than I was a year ago.

I just said on another thread that we had this backline against Wales:

09 Murray
10 Sexton
11 Zebo
12 Darcy
13 O'Driscoll
14 Gilroy
15 Kearney

Sexton and Zebo got injured in the very next game. Then Darcy got injured after that. Then Gilroy got injured. Then O'Driscoll got a concussion. Then Marshall who came in as a replacement for Darcy got a concussion.

Of course of play was going to become more disjointed. Throw in the apalling weather conditions against England and France and its no wonder our attack has not looked as sharp since we played Wales.

Our use of the bench needs major improvement if we are to have an 80 minute game but by and large things are much better now than this time last year.

We've seen the likes Kilcoyne, Fitzpatrick, Archer, Henderson, McCarthy, Jackson, Zebo, Gilroy and Marshall all come into the match day squad.

We look a lot better this year than we did a year ago.

Definitely a lot of reasons to be cheerful.

There are no excuses in international rugby Stag.

Injuries can affect any side at any time, like a dodgy refereeing decision or a freak bounce of the ball. Just bad luck. Being a champion isn't about avoiding adversity (although luck helps, it really does) its about overcoming it.

Look at New Zealand winning the World Cup with Donald at 10 and McCaw on one foot. Test rugby is a pretty cut throat arena. I think you have to be a cold, competitive barsteward to be a test coach. I've always felt Kidney was just a bit too nice.

Careful

The independent is saying that both centres should make it.

If they didn't this would be my backline

Murray-Sexton
Fitzgerald-Cave
Earls-Kearney-Gilroy

Marshall-Jackson-Trimble

Notch wrote:There are no excuses in international rugby Stag.

Injuries can affect any side at any time, like a dodgy refereeing decision or a freak bounce of the ball. Just bad luck. Being a champion isn't about avoiding adversity (although luck helps, it really does) its about overcoming it.

Look at New Zealand winning the World Cup with Donald at 10 and McCaw on one foot. Test rugby is a pretty cut throat arena. I think you have to be a cold, competitive barsteward to be a test coach. I've always felt Kidney was just a bit too nice.

Look. Graham Henry was a failure with Wales* (won a world cup with NZ) are you trying to suggest that having strength in both quality and depth has nothing to do with NZ winning the world cup (and put to the pin of their collar to do so)? You think Luke Donald wouldn't make an Ireland test team ahead of Jackson if he was available?


*a failure that Mike Ruddock benefited from. Maybe history is about to repeat itself!

Missing the point as usual.

09 Murray
10 Sexton
11 Zebo
12 Darcy
13 O'Driscoll
14 Gilroy
15 Kearney


Those are players putting their own hands up at Provincial level and in International. Though I'd question even a few of those.

My question - could not a new head coach and coaching extras get productivity out of those same players, just as Kidney got productivity out of O'Sullivan's selections?

I think it's a doable for another coach to be able to manage it. I don't think I see Kidney as being a necessary father to their continued exploits at International.

The problem with Kidney and his fellow coaches is not that I personally, for some weird wayward reason, want rid of them and him.
The problem continues to be that they bring naive (perhaps stubborn) tactics to a modern game - in my continuing view. Period. That's the only reason.

They sit back on efforts made and decide to roll with the punches for too much of an 80 minute period. That gets done over and over and over again, regardless of opposition. It's a glaring tactical (coaching produced) error and it won't change unless coaching team changes.

Wales didn't come back into the game. That was certainly their plan to do so after halftime - yes. But they didn't come back in the second half, Ireland chose to let them, to stand off - to take the heat, to take the strain, to trust the defence. Ireland chooses to defend too slim a scoreline over and over again...and it's coached.

Scotland didn't come back at us....Ireland took the pressure off with too slim a margin to defend. But they felt (as always) that defending would be half the victory - or more than half. Bad coaching continuing.

And when I say 'defending', I don't mean to say Scotland or Wales in possession and us holding out on our tryline. That's would be an elementary understanding of defending and only half the real understanding of what it is.
When I say 'defending' I mean kicking away hard fought for possession that we supposedly have the talent to use for ourselves. I mean players working spaces for themselves and yet cautious, cautious team-mates holding back and not chasing after to offer real support lines. Defense has priority. Don't be stretched out of shape because of any boy wonder break outs from O'Brien, Earls, Kearney etc. That's coached. Everyone blames the players. It's coached, don't blame them. It's obviously coached to me, blatantly coached to me.

I personally want Kidney gone because he oversees a unit that fails to offer a killer punch to any side they face.
I want him gone because of a caution, caution philosophy that permeats through the Ireland side, regardless of who is playing or who the opposition is. The caution, caution might be a scientific approach to the game of rugby in certain quarters...it isn't producing the win ratios that would champion its continued existence as Ireland's blueprint.

I want him gone because Ireland offers no variation to the oppositon. France never panicked against Ireland because they knew what to expect.... they knew Ireland too well. Apply pressure and Ireland doesn't come out fighting back, it circles the wagons and prepares to defend slim margins.

Notch wrote:Missing the point as usual.

After dropping BOD from captaincy & ROG from the squad - you think Kidney is too nice

SecretFly wrote:

I personally want Kidney gone because he oversees a unit that fails to offer a killer punch to any side they face.
I want him gone because of a caution, caution philosophy that permeats through the Ireland side, regardless of who is playing or who the opposition is. The caution, caution might be a scientific approach to the game of rugby in certain quarters...it isn't producing the win ratios that would champion its continued existence as Ireland's blueprint.

I want him gone because Ireland offers no variation to the oppositon. France never panicked against Ireland because they knew what to expect.... they knew Ireland too well. Apply pressure and Ireland doesn't come out fighting back, it circles the wagons and prepares to defend slim margins.

It might help the players to be a bit more adventurous if when some players make the effort to attack, the senior players didn't rip into them in public for making an error.

Sin é wrote:

Notch wrote:There are no excuses in international rugby Stag.

Injuries can affect any side at any time, like a dodgy refereeing decision or a freak bounce of the ball. Just bad luck. Being a champion isn't about avoiding adversity (although luck helps, it really does) its about overcoming it.

Look at New Zealand winning the World Cup with Donald at 10 and McCaw on one foot. Test rugby is a pretty cut throat arena. I think you have to be a cold, competitive barsteward to be a test coach. I've always felt Kidney was just a bit too nice.

Look. Graham Henry was a failure with Wales* (won a world cup with NZ) are you trying to suggest that having strength in both quality and depth has nothing to do with NZ winning the world cup (and put to the pin of their collar to do so)? You think Luke Donald wouldn't make an Ireland test team ahead of Jackson if he was available?


*a failure that Mike Ruddock benefited from. Maybe history is about to repeat itself!

No he wasn't. We had a record number of straight wins leading up to the 1999 World Cup under his regime. Hansen was the absolute disaster that prepared the way for Ruddock. And that was because the players chose to ignore him in the 03 World Cup and threw it about a bit.

SecretFly wrote:

I personally want Kidney gone because he oversees a unit that fails to offer a killer punch to any side they face.
I want him gone because of a caution, caution philosophy that permeats through the Ireland side, regardless of who is playing or who the opposition is. The caution, caution might be a scientific approach to the game of rugby in certain quarters...it isn't producing the win ratios that would champion its continued existence as Ireland's blueprint.

I want him gone because Ireland offers no variation to the oppositon. France never panicked against Ireland because they knew what to expect.... they knew Ireland too well. Apply pressure and Ireland doesn't come out fighting back, it circles the wagons and prepares to defend slim margins.

It might help the players to be a bit more adventurous if when some players make the effort to attack, the senior players didn't rip into them in public for making an error.

edit: it doesn't help either that Sexton is more lauded for his defence than anything else and BOD doesn't have the legs to make a break so concentrates on his defence.

Glas a du wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Notch wrote:There are no excuses in international rugby Stag.

Injuries can affect any side at any time, like a dodgy refereeing decision or a freak bounce of the ball. Just bad luck. Being a champion isn't about avoiding adversity (although luck helps, it really does) its about overcoming it.

Look at New Zealand winning the World Cup with Donald at 10 and McCaw on one foot. Test rugby is a pretty cut throat arena. I think you have to be a cold, competitive barsteward to be a test coach. I've always felt Kidney was just a bit too nice.

Look. Graham Henry was a failure with Wales* (won a world cup with NZ) are you trying to suggest that having strength in both quality and depth has nothing to do with NZ winning the world cup (and put to the pin of their collar to do so)? You think Luke Donald wouldn't make an Ireland test team ahead of Jackson if he was available?


*a failure that Mike Ruddock benefited from. Maybe history is about to repeat itself!

No he wasn't. We had a record number of straight wins leading up to the 1999 World Cup under his regime. Hansen was the absolute disaster that prepared the way for Ruddock. And that was because the players chose to ignore him in the 03 World Cup and threw it about a bit.

Henry's last game in charge of Wales was a 54-10 loss to Ireland.

Sin é wrote:

Notch wrote:Missing the point as usual.

After dropping BOD from captaincy & ROG from the squad - you think Kidney is too nice

Maybe he's a different man behind the scenes. The face he outs out in the media is of a slightly baffled, tetchy middle-aged man who doesn't know why we aren't successful and isn't prepared to come out and say why he really is doing things.

It's the ROG decision that troubles me. He retained ROG long past when he should have. I'd be wary it's because of sentiment. Sentiment isn't affordable at this level.

Sin é wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

I personally want Kidney gone because he oversees a unit that fails to offer a killer punch to any side they face.
I want him gone because of a caution, caution philosophy that permeats through the Ireland side, regardless of who is playing or who the opposition is. The caution, caution might be a scientific approach to the game of rugby in certain quarters...it isn't producing the win ratios that would champion its continued existence as Ireland's blueprint.

I want him gone because Ireland offers no variation to the oppositon. France never panicked against Ireland because they knew what to expect.... they knew Ireland too well. Apply pressure and Ireland doesn't come out fighting back, it circles the wagons and prepares to defend slim margins.

It might help the players to be a bit more adventurous if when some players make the effort to attack, the senior players didn't rip into them in public for making an error.

edit: it doesn't help either that Sexton is more lauded for his defence than anything else and BOD doesn't have the legs to make a break so concentrates on his defence.

Thats only for Ireland as Ireland are so badly drilled with little or no creativity or structure to our back play. Both Drico and Sexton attack a lot more for Leinster because Schmidt likes to use these things called backs moves. Dont think they exist in Munster which is probably why Kidney has never heard of them.

Sin é wrote:It might help the players to be a bit more adventurous if when some players make the effort to attack, the senior players didn't rip into them in public for making an error.

This is what I mean by too nice. They are at the highest level of the game now. There are standards that must be demanded of everyone. Anyone not reaching those standards needs to be called out on it, publicly or not!

It's not a nice world! And on the pitch there is no time to kindly take a guy aside and have a word in his ear away from the cameras. If we want to win, really want to win, we need 15 guys willing to scream at each other and themselves when they aren't reaching the required standards. I'm sure BOD etc. would want to be the first to know if there teammates feel they aren't delivering.

Notch wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Notch wrote:Missing the point as usual.

After dropping BOD from captaincy & ROG from the squad - you think Kidney is too nice

Maybe he's a different man behind the scenes. The face he outs out in the media is of a slightly baffled, tetchy middle-aged man who doesn't know why we aren't successful and isn't prepared to come out and say why he really is doing things.

It's the ROG decision that troubles me. He retained ROG long past when he should have. I'd be wary it's because of sentiment. Sentiment isn't affordable at this level.

The man has a Masters in Psychology - he just doesn't give anything away. He believes in the team ethic and most importantly, the jersey is only on loan. All the Munster players (including ROD) would have been indoctrinated with that philosophy. Its mostly non-Munster supporters who are making a big deal about ROG being dropped, perhaps because they don't get it.

For days, I've been complaining about the fact we're talking about ROG. That we should be talking about the players who are there, not those who are not there. Oh God. Sin, you are priceless.

Notch wrote:

For days, I've been complaining about the fact we're talking about ROG. That we should be talking about the players who are there, not those who are not there. Oh God. Sin, you are priceless.

Its a relevant comment when discussing whether a coach is too nice or not. (and ROG is still available to Ireland).

Notch wrote:

Sin é wrote:It might help the players to be a bit more adventurous if when some players make the effort to attack, the senior players didn't rip into them in public for making an error.

This is what I mean by too nice. They are at the highest level of the game now. There are standards that must be demanded of everyone. Anyone not reaching those standards needs to be called out on it, publicly or not!

It's not a nice world! And on the pitch there is no time to kindly take a guy aside and have a word in his ear away from the cameras. If we want to win, really want to win, we need 15 guys willing to scream at each other and themselves when they aren't reaching the required standards. I'm sure BOD etc. would want to be the first to know if there teammates feel they aren't delivering.

The Great One Amongst Us Who Would Never Get a Tongue Lashing from any of his mortal team mates for doing things wrong...gets enough of it and takes it...because yes, he knows the team is focused when he gets it. And if Sin é has never seen O'Driscoll (blessings be Upon him) getting it in the neck from people like Sexton or Heaslip or Healy (dragging him unceremoniously off the ball covering duties last week!)..then Sin é needs to watch more replays of Leinster... and things...

SecretFly wrote:

Notch wrote:

Sin é wrote:It might help the players to be a bit more adventurous if when some players make the effort to attack, the senior players didn't rip into them in public for making an error.

This is what I mean by too nice. They are at the highest level of the game now. There are standards that must be demanded of everyone. Anyone not reaching those standards needs to be called out on it, publicly or not!

It's not a nice world! And on the pitch there is no time to kindly take a guy aside and have a word in his ear away from the cameras. If we want to win, really want to win, we need 15 guys willing to scream at each other and themselves when they aren't reaching the required standards. I'm sure BOD etc. would want to be the first to know if there teammates feel they aren't delivering.

The Great One Amongst Us Who Would Never Get a Tongue Lashing from any of his mortal team mates for doing things wrong...gets enough of it and takes it...because yes, he knows the team is focused when he gets it. And if Sin é has never seen O'Driscoll (blessings be Upon him) getting it in the neck from people like Sexton or Heaslip or Healy (dragging him unceremoniously off the ball covering duties last week!)..then Sin é needs to watch more replays of Leinster... and things...

Funny that, I didn't see any of those you mention tearing into BOD for his failure to make a simple pass to Earls who would have had a straight run in for a try!

Fair enough if BOD tears into everyone who makes a mistake, but it was noticeable that he didn't tear into D'Arcy for givingn an intercept try, where he had a right go at Peter Stringer.

All very well for the Leinster team tearing into each other (though I've read that Sexton realises that its a failing and has been trying to curb this tendency of his to let fly for some reason). Said he frequently had to apologise to team mates for it for some reason (if its not a big deal, why would you have to apologise to your team mates).

SecretFly wrote:Nah, debaters, we don't want his blood...just a new head coach. It all sounds dramatic and like it should take this country into a long and vicious Civil War (like the Roy Keane saga).... but really, it isn't. It's saying we need a new coach. That gets said when a team underperforms for such an extended period. Nothing dramatic about those thoughts.

And perhaps you could explain the line:

"Should Kidney's contract be renewed? probably not, but if you're going to change and build for RWC 2015, the change has to be the correct one, not merely for the sake of it."

Is that agreeing with those who want a new coach, not agreeing with them, agreeing with them in principle or in truth, not agreeing with a word they say? Because you have to admit that statement above seems to cover all options and reasons for.

Afternoon Secret, apologies for the delayed reply:

To explain that line, I thought it was clearly implied that I feel if we change coach, and this is something I'm NOT objecting to, then it has to be the correct change in respect of EITHER getting in a "coching" coach, OR a Director of Rugby type, and leave or augment the current coaching ticket of Smal, Foley, Kiss & Tainton. This might seem strange to some, but in the past 7 matches, Ireland have had an excellent defensve record and scored tries and created opportunities out of attack, whether first phase, multi phase or turnover/defenisve pressure. So that aspect has, eventually, clicked.

So changing the head coach would, in my eyes, be to one of the above roles in an out and out sense of said role. So bring in the stratigist to coach in camps and make the plan for match day, with a team manager to do almost all the heavy lifting with the Media and all that logistical shoite. I know there is one in situ that does do some leg work with the media, but the roll would be vastly expanded if there was to be a more "hands on" coach on the pitch.

So, how this change is to be of the "correct" nature rather than just getting rid of Kidney, simple, you get quality in of either hue. So even jokingly suggesting the likes of Elwood or indeed, back to EOS would not work. Nor would the now available Bradley. Someone, DOD I think, rubbished Mike Ruddock, which I think is fairly harsh given that at the coal face coaching level, he has worked well and produced good quality players with the U-20s and if he were to be promoted to the coaching role highlighted above, I do not think it would weaken the ticket.

External candidates like say, White, or Henry or Eddie Jones (and whomever else your care to suggest) may or may not work. They'll cost money anyway and would probably be looking for a gig longer than the end of the 2015 RWC, but it could work out as both economically viable and provide the results we want in the style we like. I wish I could predict such matter, alas I can't!

So if we change in June, we do not need to panic as there is no contract to break, but the IRFU cannot dawdle either (and who knows, they could be interviewing on the D/L as we speak)

In summary, I will not be gutted if Deccie is replaced, nor will I be so if he is retained as I have seen more than enough positive intent on all important fronts this season to go forward with hope, but I'm not inclined to allow a certain vocal minority to be overly vindictive (or indeed delusionally supportive either) So he could get his Chester A. Arthur moment. Or not. Either way, I shan't cry. Just don't bring back the power centralist that is EOS or give it to Bradley or Elwood coz they're cheap and "home-grown" or some random SH coach because he is an SH coach.

Marry in haste, repent at leisure.

Sin é wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

Notch wrote:

Sin é wrote:It might help the players to be a bit more adventurous if when some players make the effort to attack, the senior players didn't rip into them in public for making an error.

This is what I mean by too nice. They are at the highest level of the game now. There are standards that must be demanded of everyone. Anyone not reaching those standards needs to be called out on it, publicly or not!

It's not a nice world! And on the pitch there is no time to kindly take a guy aside and have a word in his ear away from the cameras. If we want to win, really want to win, we need 15 guys willing to scream at each other and themselves when they aren't reaching the required standards. I'm sure BOD etc. would want to be the first to know if there teammates feel they aren't delivering.

The Great One Amongst Us Who Would Never Get a Tongue Lashing from any of his mortal team mates for doing things wrong...gets enough of it and takes it...because yes, he knows the team is focused when he gets it. And if Sin é has never seen O'Driscoll (blessings be Upon him) getting it in the neck from people like Sexton or Heaslip or Healy (dragging him unceremoniously off the ball covering duties last week!)..then Sin é needs to watch more replays of Leinster... and things...

Funny that, I didn't see any of those you mention tearing into BOD for his failure to make a simple pass to Earls who would have had a straight run in for a try!

Fair enough if BOD tears into everyone who makes a mistake, but it was noticeable that he didn't tear into D'Arcy for givingn an intercept try, where he had a right go at Peter Stringer.

All very well for the Leinster team tearing into each other (though I've read that Sexton realises that its a failing and has been trying to curb this tendency of his to let fly for some reason). Said he frequently had to apologise to team mates for it for some reason (if its not a big deal, why would you have to apologise to your team mates).

I'd take Sexton tearing into his team mates any day of the week over timid 'yes, sir, please, sir stuff.... it shows he and his team mates are alive...and emotionally involved - something that isn't always the case for most players when playing for Ireland.

Did someone say Kidney is too nice? Well, yep - perhaps that might be the central one thing afterall. Not enough 'F**K You!!!' fire in the dressing room and during training - from all, not just coaches.

Maybe Declan simply needs to throw a boot at a wall or simply say "Is it because you lot want me gone that you're playing Shyte??!!!! Is that it???" I'd admire him if he felt that and actually put it to them...in the privacy of the dressingroom where a journo could let us know about it after! preferably team waterboy and mascot Thornley

Anyway..that would be more the air-clearing war I'd like than the hotel meetings with the usual "everyone expressed a view" bull. Let rip Decco! You never know what might happen - a World Cup!

spot on secret fly. all good teams have a spikey competitive edge to them.

earls is not a 19 year old. he got chewed out of it for butchering a massive opportunity one that is hard to craft at international level. it simply had to be a try, does not matter if he scored himself or put drico in. do you think the all black players and managers would have tapped him on the back and said hard luck keith best of luck with your next 2 and 1 keith. would they f*ck. he would have been benched

lets be clear the above is just one of numerous examples of irish players making poor decisions on the field. kidney may not be responsible but he is accountable. what are we doing in training?

we are more effective when we have less of the ball in a game. Our best chance of beating a big team is when we drag them down to our level. Aus in the World Cup being a case in point. We had loads of ball v England, Scotland and France this year alone and did not muster a single win. That tells me we really need to sharpen up our attacking game.

I simply think a fresh voice and coaching team is needed. Do not want to get personal about it. Kidney is a decent man a decent coach and rightly a Munster legend but has simply not done enough to get an extension. His win/loss ratio is not good enough. Results do not lie. He has been unlucky this 6 nations with massive injury problems but if we are being honest with ourselves we rode our luck spectacularly to win the Grand Slam.

International rugby coaching is not like a job for life in the ESB. You need results. Kidneys have not been good enough

as an aside looking at the standard of back play in this years 6 nations i would fear massively for the Lions in Australia. the amount of butchered 2 and 1s and huge lumps just running at contact. Really poor boring stuff.

Some people were literally wetting themselves at the prospect of tuilagi and basteraud shaping up and running straight at each other for 80 minutes. if all centres are going to become 17 stone bashing machines im giving up. Conrad Smith and Drico type players will become history

If Australia get 40% of the ball a backline of - beale,cummins,mogg,ashley cooper,ioane,oconnor,genia they will have too much skill and pace for the lions especially with rob howley coaching the backs

I will be devastated if we don't replace kidney. That's not a comment on the man or indeed this 6N when he has at least begun a transition. I'm not half as angry as I was in previous 6N but I'm not sure whether that's down to a feeling of resignation or rather the fact that I believe this was coming.

Our coaching ticket is a bit of a mess at this point. Axel has done well with the defence but is double jobbing as is feek with the scrum. I am undecided on Feek. We are still over reliant on Ross and he did recommend Michael Bent, then again we have had a semblance of parity against every team.

Kiss is lost as an attack coach and allowing him to double job and then graduate to his weakest coaching area was madness. Smal is a good coach but I can't help but think our forward play is laboured and regressive. Our breakdown isnt aggressive enough and our backrow balance had been all over the shop (it improved at the weekend)

Ruddock is in situ with the IRFU and is a grand slam winning coach. That's a decent interim appointment at the very least. Of course he would then need a coaching ticket but the work rate of his sides is impressive. This batch of U20s isn't the most talented to come through but their focus is impressive and they clearly buy into Ruddocks game plan.

Deccie deserved the opportunity to have an RWC with Ireland but he has done nothing to deserve taking us to the next one. I think he is a likeable guy but at this point its time to be ruthless and give our side the best chance of competing over the next decade with the next generation

dublin_dave wrote:spot on secret fly. all good teams have a spikey competitive edge to them.

earls is not a 19 year old. he got chewed out of it for butchering a massive opportunity one that is hard to craft at international level. it simply had to be a try, does not matter if he scored himself or put drico in. do you think the all black players and managers would have tapped him on the back and said hard luck keith best of luck with your next 2 and 1 keith. would they f*ck. he would have been benched

Neither is Brian O'Driscoll a 19-year-old. Why didn't he get chewed out of it for what would have been a sure try? Far more likely than what Earls would be attempting.

By the way, Heislip did exactly the same thing as Earls did at the weekend and no one said a word to him for it.

Earls is a confidence player - BOD & Sexton would know that and screaming at him is only going to harm the efforts of the team. Even if whoever is at the receiving end of it is happy enough to take a public bollocking, how will that affect the Jacksons, L. Marshalls etc. who are only starting their careers. They will be afraid to try anything in case they make a mistake and end up getting a rollicking from some senior players who should know better.

Too many of the players are soft, molicoddled prima donnas who can't perform under pressure -physically or mentally.

A lot of the guys under 30 have piggybacked of the likes of O'Driscoll, Shaggy, ROG, POC, Wood, D'arcy, POC, Wallace, Hayes etc., great players who took us from also rans to a world class side over 5-6 seasons in the early noughties.

The IRFU though the central contracting process and mismanagment have squandered this down the plughole. They've employed yes men coaches to look after a squad of handpicked players who are not only nigh on guaranteed their international jersey but they spend half the season wrapped in cotton wool.

The whole thing is rotten from top to bottom.

We need a no nonsence authoritarian coach to come in and rip up trees, cut the dead wood and sort the wheat from the chaff.

Sin é wrote:

Earls is a confidence player - BOD & Sexton would know that and screaming at him is only going to harm the efforts of the team. Even if whoever is at the receiving end of it is happy enough to take a public bollocking, how will that affect the Jacksons, L. Marshalls etc. who are only starting their careers. They will be afraid to try anything in case they make a mistake and end up getting a rollicking from some senior players who should know better.

Sin é, Earl's lost his confidence the minute he realised he'd run out of space. He knew exactly what his team mates were going to think..and it was already on his mind "Gonna get a bollickin' here!!! "

He made an error chasing after a try and he got it not because he's a 'useless c**t'...but because he worked the beauty of the hope so well.

The players - including O'Driscoll - were frustrated because of what it might have been. Getting a bollicking was a compliment, if you want to be totally accurate about it. Had he got nothing in his ear that would have meant the rest of his team didn't even consider his break out a goer. They did - he worked it - and he fluffed the beauty of what might have been. So he took the hit of his frustrated mate.

Another thing...you keep this one alive. The rest of us have moved on from Earls...but you keep trying to add it to the history syllabus and then blaming the rest of us because we continue to blame him. Move on or we'll all be tripping over this 'blame' game that's in fashion these day. And I should know - I'm Hook on LSD.

Standulstermen wrote:Ruddock is in situ with the IRFU and is a grand slam winning coach. That's a decent interim appointment at the very least. Of course he would then need a coaching ticket but the work rate of his sides is impressive. This batch of U20s isn't the most talented to come through but their focus is impressive and they clearly buy into Ruddocks game plan.

Deccie deserved the opportunity to have an RWC with Ireland but he has done nothing to deserve taking us to the next one. I think he is a likeable guy but at this point its time to be ruthless and give our side the best chance of competing over the next decade with the next generation

Sorry, I think Ruddock is a poor coach. U20s results have been poor for the teams he has had, other than the JWC last year, and most of that came about because of injuries, or withdrawals. Luke McGrath was first choice scrumhalf going into the 6Ns last year and Marmion was a 20 minute offering off the bench when JJ moved to outhalf. The year before he made Annett captain, putting too much pressure on a young player in a key position. Similar with Jackson his year - he should never been made captain and outhalf. Only Ulster withdrew Jackson, neither JJ or Marmion would have got a chance.

He also was relegated with Worchester after his stint with Wales.

One thing none of these potential coaches have succeeded at - and that is building a team. O'Shea had similar opportunities to Kidney when he started out in the pro-era. London Irish never did anything much, Munster is regarded as one of the Top Clubs in world rugby.

rodders wrote:Too many of the players are soft, molicoddled prima donnas who can't perform under pressure -physically or mentally.

A lot of the guys under 30 have piggybacked of the likes of O'Driscoll, Shaggy, ROG, POC, Wood, D'arcy, POC, Wallace, Hayes etc., great players who took us from also rans to a world class side over 5-6 seasons in the early noughties.

The IRFU though the central contracting process and mismanagment have squandered this down the plughole. They've employed yes men coaches to look after a squad of handpicked players who are not only nigh on guaranteed their international jersey but they spend half the season wrapped in cotton wool.

The whole thing is rotten from top to bottom.

We need a no nonsence authoritarian coach to come in and rip up trees, cut the dead wood and sort the wheat from the chaff.

Now that's effin' Hotel Room Peace talk powwow stuff right there!!! Copy, paste and ship it.

SecretFly wrote:

Sin é, Earl's lost his confidence the minute he realised he'd run out of space. He knew exactly what his team mates were going to think..and it was already on his mind "Gonna get a bollickin' here!!! "

He made an error chasing after a try and he got it not because he's a 'useless c**t'...but because he worked the beauty of the hope so well.

The players - including O'Driscoll - were frustrated because of what it might have been. Getting a bollicking was a compliment, if you want to be totally accurate about it. Had he got nothing in his ear that would have meant the rest of his team didn't even consider his break out a goer. They did - he worked it - and he fluffed the beauty of what might have been. So he took the hit of his frustrated mate.

Another thing...you keep this one alive. The rest of us have moved on from Earls...but you keep trying to add it to the history syllabus and then blaming the rest of us because we continue to blame him. Move on or we'll all be tripping over this 'blame' game that's in fashion these day. And I should know - I'm Hook on LSD.

You still haven't answered why BOD didn't get a rollicking for not passing to Earls for what would have been a certain try.

Sin é wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

Sin é, Earl's lost his confidence the minute he realised he'd run out of space. He knew exactly what his team mates were going to think..and it was already on his mind "Gonna get a bollickin' here!!! "

He made an error chasing after a try and he got it not because he's a 'useless c**t'...but because he worked the beauty of the hope so well.

The players - including O'Driscoll - were frustrated because of what it might have been. Getting a bollicking was a compliment, if you want to be totally accurate about it. Had he got nothing in his ear that would have meant the rest of his team didn't even consider his break out a goer. They did - he worked it - and he fluffed the beauty of what might have been. So he took the hit of his frustrated mate.

Another thing...you keep this one alive. The rest of us have moved on from Earls...but you keep trying to add it to the history syllabus and then blaming the rest of us because we continue to blame him. Move on or we'll all be tripping over this 'blame' game that's in fashion these day. And I should know - I'm Hook on LSD.

You still haven't answered why BOD didn't get a rollicking for not passing to Earls for what would have been a certain try.

Ask Earls...he's the one that didn't bollick Maybe he thought he wasn't allowed to??? Maybe he's too timid in the 'F**k You!' department? Maybe O'Driscoll's hope wasn't as beautiful as Earl's. The more beautiful the prospect the more frustration at the loss.

In any case, the answer to your lingering question is: How the hell should I know???? Ask the guy who should have bollicked.

Maybe he's a confidence bollocker

no idea sin e but come on earls needs to have a thicker skin than that. he spurned two glorious chances at international level has to take a bit of flack.

i have seen leinster players bollock each other on numerous occasions for daft mistakes. cannot see the issue

SecretFly wrote:

Sin é wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

Sin é, Earl's lost his confidence the minute he realised he'd run out of space. He knew exactly what his team mates were going to think..and it was already on his mind "Gonna get a bollickin' here!!! "

He made an error chasing after a try and he got it not because he's a 'useless c**t'...but because he worked the beauty of the hope so well.

The players - including O'Driscoll - were frustrated because of what it might have been. Getting a bollicking was a compliment, if you want to be totally accurate about it. Had he got nothing in his ear that would have meant the rest of his team didn't even consider his break out a goer. They did - he worked it - and he fluffed the beauty of what might have been. So he took the hit of his frustrated mate.

Another thing...you keep this one alive. The rest of us have moved on from Earls...but you keep trying to add it to the history syllabus and then blaming the rest of us because we continue to blame him. Move on or we'll all be tripping over this 'blame' game that's in fashion these day. And I should know - I'm Hook on LSD.

You still haven't answered why BOD didn't get a rollicking for not passing to Earls for what would have been a certain try.

Ask Earls...he's the one that didn't bollick Maybe he thought he wasn't allowed to??? Maybe he's too timid in the 'F**k You!' department? Maybe O'Driscoll's hope wasn't as beautiful as Earl's. The more beautiful the prospect the more frustration at the loss.

In any case, the answer to your lingering question is: How the hell should I know???? Ask the guy who should have bollicked.

Surely the Captain or Sexton who seemingly are well known for doing it would have sorted it out. Heislip had as bad an error at the weekend and BOD (or anyone else) didn't have a go at him.

And Earls does lack confidence. Even Quinlan (who was well able to deliver a rollicking (or box) to a team mate used to adopt the opposite method when dealing with Keith (by encouraging him and trying to convince him he was as good if not better than those around him).