Can Ireland beat Italy?

First topic message reminder :

Italy are well overdue beating Ireland and I can see them pushing very hard for a second 6N victory. As an irishman I'll be watching this game very nervously in what may be O driscolls and kidneys last game...

I actually wouldn't go in for the knee jerk reaction on Kidney and I didn't when the knees started jerking. I judged him on the last number of years and it was the Six Nations after the World Cup I finally gave up hope. Was still open to being proven wrong.

Lots of fans as in you Sin é. Of Kidney.

All the other fans are intolerant of defeats and for Ireland there have been many. For Henry in 2007 it was one match. Woodward lost a few at the beginning admittedly but no doubt he had a legion of intolerant fans before England started winning.

Ireland have lost too many games to ask for more Kidney tolerance. Ireland are on the dialysis machine. They need a transplant now.

SecretFly wrote:

Sin é wrote:

SecretFly wrote:No nation of fans would tolerate that slide without looking for fresh eyes in the coaching department - and we Irish don't tolerate that slide either.

If that is the case how did Graham Henry & his coaching team get a second go at coaching the ABs in 2007? Must have taken the injuries to some key players as a contributor factor to this phenomenally well prepared tea to get knocked out of the 1/4 final, and ignored leaving such key experienced players like Doug Howlett in the stands.

Clive Woodwards is another one who was given the benefit of the doubt for his second contract.

My point is, lots of fans are tolerant of coaching errors.

My apologies. Correction then - I'm not ; when it extends to years. But you're right, you always prove that some of us will always remain tolerant.

Barbed. Both situations very different to the one we find ourselves in.

I also believe, that perhaps Ireland need to freshen things up a bit, Ireland have some very good young players to nurture and I think Paddy Jackson has what it takes to be up there with the worlds best, but what could a new coach do, that is different to what Declan Kidney is doing ? Perhaps he could motivate the players better, but he will have the same players none the less, as an outsider I see Ireland's problems in the forwards, you do not a have any "nasty" players there, for all Cain Healey's ability he does not strike me as an enforcer so to speak, POC, John Hayes, Jerry Flannery, even as far back as Keith Woods and Peter Clohessy (spelling) now they were players not to be trifled with, and that is what Ireland for me are lacking at the moment somebody to lead by example, perhaps a new coach could sort that out though.

Kicking ball away aimlessly to running attack-minded sides - over and over and over again, year after year after year.

That, Lord.... THAT is a coaching error. That is a coached policy. That Ireland don't need to do so often. That would change under a new coach. Ireland chooses to defend more than being forced into it. This coach (or coaches) still believes in the potency of that 'plan' regardless of the results proving it a wrong one over and over again, year after year.

So that's one thing that would change...and it's a big thing...and it's a coached thing....and it's crud.

We have players that can attack and we've proven it. We choose to use up the greatest percentage of 80 minutes defending.

SecretFly wrote:Kicking ball away aimlessly to running attack-minded sides - over and over and over again, year after year after year.

That, Lord.... THAT is a coaching error. That is a coached policy. That Ireland don't need to do so often. That would change under a new coach. Ireland chooses to defend more than being forced into it. This coach (or coaches) still believes in the potency of that 'plan' regardless of the results proving it a wrong one over and over again, year after year.

So that's one thing that would change...and it's a big thing...and it's a coached thing....and it's crud.

We have players that can attack and we've proven it. We choose to use up the greatest percentage of 80 minutes defending.

Youv'e just typed what Wales do every game.

LordDowlais wrote:

SecretFly wrote:Kicking ball away aimlessly to running attack-minded sides - over and over and over again, year after year after year.

That, Lord.... THAT is a coaching error. That is a coached policy. That Ireland don't need to do so often. That would change under a new coach. Ireland chooses to defend more than being forced into it. This coach (or coaches) still believes in the potency of that 'plan' regardless of the results proving it a wrong one over and over again, year after year.

So that's one thing that would change...and it's a big thing...and it's a coached thing....and it's crud.

We have players that can attack and we've proven it. We choose to use up the greatest percentage of 80 minutes defending.

Youv'e just typed what Wales do every game.

No I haven't, Lord. That's only half or even a third of the Welsh game. Firstly they attack much more than Ireland do through the course of 80 minutes (brutally obvious)...secondly - they use their kick-aways to do so by chasing after them in a realistically robust way. They don't stand loking at the missiles land as the they smoke cigarettes in their tryline trenches The operative word I used was 'aimlessly'. Ireland aimlessly kick away...over and over and over again. Coached.

Devils in the details really.

If we're going to play the way we are, at least get the forwards coming onto the ball at pace and together instead of static and isolated. If we're going to insist on kicking the ball away, make it a kick that you have a chance of winning back due to a co-ordinated chase.

We have a (too) basic plan, but it's not even being implemented effectively.

What I want to see is us playing with our heads up a bit more, but the national coach isn't there to coach basics. We saw some poor basics in the Scotland game- failure to give simple scoring passes, run good support lines, finish off linebreaks etc. Even so, there's no reason why our forwards can't pass the bloody ball every once in a while. We're better than predictably seeking contact at the first opportunity, letting the opposition slow our ball then pacing and either kicking it away or giving it to another isolated forward to rinse and repeat. But we are without variation or invention. Predictable.

Really, support lines and the ability and confidence to keep your hands free in contact and make the offload an option are one of the areas we desperately need to improve, and the attitude- we have to want to keep the ball alive and keep it quick. Right now our backrow are too eager to die with the ball or take contact asap, our 9 is too slow to get it out and our 10 is to deep or quick to the boot.

Jackson has done quite well, all things considered, but he needs to be wary of neglecting his running game. Thrown in at the deep end can leave you focusing on doing the basics and he's done those basics quite well by and large but he has the skill and ability to play flat to the gainline and interest defenders so I'd like to see him do that more. Were he to challenge the gainline more his distribution would be a real weapon. Otherwise, Madigan (who has no problem with this) will outstrip him. At the start of the season I was very adamant that Madigan and Keatley needing to be the understudies to Sexton and I haven't seen much to change my mind about that as much as I think Jackson has the most potential of all of them.

It really is depressing when you see an Irish forward get the ball- he instantly tucks it under one arm and looks to take it to ground and set up a ruck. From which we'll take our time assessing options, Murray will stand inspecting the ruck, only to eventually pass it by which time the opposition is completely organised again.

Notch wrote:It really is depressing when you see an Irish forward get the ball- he instantly tucks it under one arm and looks to take it to ground and set up a ruck. From which we'll take our time assessing options, Murray will stand inspecting the ruck, only to eventually pass it by which time the opposition is completely organised again.

So true.

It's laughable that all observers with eyes attached to brains see this and yet we still have champions of reason in the closet who say that's all players doing it for themselves and in no way coached into them for four straight years.

If not coached then why does it continue to happen? It happens because its coached. It's rugby for the playing fields of yesteryear, it doesn't fool the opposition and it just knocks the stuffing out of our own players trying to sustain the madness.

I think everytime Kidney and his coaches tried to break away from the conservativism they found they didn't have the coaching skills required to make it work. The players didn't know where they were going with all the fast ball whizzing around and forward passing and knock-ons and loose fingering...so Kidney keeps returning to a place he's comfortable with but which isn't gaining results. He knows he's in a dilemma, he knows he'd have to reselect all or most of his coaches to change the way Ireland play and he's too honourable a man to do that. So he'll fall on his sword.

We're now 9th in the world, btw. That's the lowest we've ever been. We're certainly breaking some big records this 6N! But that's only in our malicious minds as fans though

Whiff of Cordite had something on exactly this last week. The Irish forwards passed the ball less - susbtantially less - than any other set of forwards this 6N. (29 times to Italy's 90, by the fifth round!)

Irish forward? Take the ball standing still, push up, recycle in a painfully slow, protracted manner, with Conor Murray gesticulating madly at the ruck.

We weren't as bad last year - but Ferris made a fifth of all our front eight passes. I think Ferris is at his most impressive scrunching up Ozzie scrumhalves and putting them in his pocket, or bumping two Argentinian front-rowers in one ten metre carry. But, for Ireland, he's arguably at his most effective as a one man rucking machine, ensuring quick ball, and drawing defenders and passing.

But it’s nothing that Heaslip couldn’t do, or Healy. We have just left it out of our gameplan.

Another rumour is Vern Cotter + Joe Schmidt.

Feckless Rogue wrote:Another rumour is Vern Cotter + Joe Schmidt.

The dream ticket. Well, by all means give it a shot! I'm not expecting it to happen. Rumours of Les Kiss seem stomach-churningly more likely.

Feckless Rogue wrote:Another rumour is Vern Cotter + Joe Schmidt.

Heard that ...and it seems to be a non-joke rumour too. It seems to have a serious mood to it.

But the only way that could be a rumour with teeth is if IRFU have been talking long before now and sounding out prospectives. Maybe they truly are smarter than the average smartass follower............... we'll wait and see.

But if those two come onboard and can't get movement into this Irish side then it really is the players themselves who do all their own coaching, and I for one will have been proven resoundingly wrong!

Italy deserved to win. No one has a problem with that.

Ireland had no plan and as Hookisms coined were an omnishambles. Italy had a clear plan because they were coached, Ireland had no plan because Kidney doesn't understand how to coach Test rugby.

Maybe if Ireland had a sembalnce of a coach they might still have lost to Italy, but they hadn't so it is little wonder that Kidney is under fire and simply has to go.

The Great Aukster wrote:Italy deserved to win. No one has a problem with that.

Ireland had no plan and as Hookisms coined were an omnishambles. Italy had a clear plan because they were coached, Ireland had no plan because Kidney doesn't understand how to coach Test rugby.

Yeah that's probably the most pressing issue alright ......