Can Ireland beat Italy?

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Italy are well overdue beating Ireland and I can see them pushing very hard for a second 6N victory. As an irishman I'll be watching this game very nervously in what may be O driscolls and kidneys last game...

Completely agree with Feckless there. The provinces do everything they can to help the national team. There is nothing more the provinces can do if we want them to be succesful

I was amazed that Ireland lost this game.

Maybe it's time to start over for Ireland. Personally I don't think your far off being a really great side. Hell you tore Wales to pieces a few short weeks ago, and look what they have done to England.

Ireland to me look like Wales pre-World Cup maybe it's time to shake things up a bit and bring a new faces in, to make the squad fresher, and put the boot up a few backsides to players who are perhaps taking their places for granted.

I think things are actually not stacked overly in favour of the provinces. We have the most 'compliant' system of any of the Six Nations. Our coach has more access to players than any coach in the Six Nations. Our coach is the only one in the Six Nations who can have a direct say in where players play for their province.

No, the reason for provincial success is forward thinking people in the board rooms and dug outs- the lack of the same in the IRFU is why the idea of them having more influence over the provinces sends chills down my spine. They won't be able to fix Ireland, but they certainly have the ability to break the provinces.

I feel like there is much more to be done at Academy level and Schools level than provincial level. If we have to slaughter a few sacred cows, how about taking a look at the structure of our school competitions and the conservative brand of rugby they encourage.

Bring some kids in, bring some energy and vibrance to the team. This will get some of the stale bored looking players going again. I'm not sure sacking Kidney is the answer in all honesty.

Though Kidney is not a gambler which maybe means this is not an option for Ireland.

Looks like we will get 5th

We've just made sure that you lads aren't Wooden Spooners.

Just buy us a pint.

George Carlin wrote:We've just made sure that you lads aren't Wooden Spooners.

Just buy us a pint.

We owe you one! But only just....

Shifty wrote:I was amazed that Ireland lost this game.

Maybe it's time to start over for Ireland. Personally I don't think your far off being a really great side. Hell you tore Wales to pieces a few short weeks ago, and look what they have done to England.

Ireland to me look like Wales pre-World Cup maybe it's time to shake things up a bit and bring a new faces in, to make the squad fresher, and put the boot up a few backsides to players who are perhaps taking their places for granted.

I'm going to look on the brightside and call out all the new Irish caps. Gilroy and Zebo look the part, Marshall has awesome potential, jackson warmed up and looks like he will be decent cover for sexton alongside madigan. O'Mahoney i've been impressed with and mccarthy too.

When Ireland remove the conservative schakles and play positive go forward rugby they are a joy to watch. Shame i only tend to see it once every 6 or 7 games, and barely saw it in the 6N. Our new coach needs to nurture that out of these players and who knows we could be winning a slam next year! stranger things have happened

With a good coaching team...that can design a gameplan around the players at their disposal instead of forcing a redundant gameplan on players ill suited to it..... yep, they'd have a shot at a title.

But that's always the case. IRFU, and even certain journalists and past players, continue to promote this idea that there is an Irish way to play the game and that we must keep to our way of doing things. Kidney himself has used the line during his tenure...we play it our way....there is an Irish way to play.

Well our way is now proven itself to be the wrong way, the unproductive way, the energy sapping/injury inducing way, the boringly predictable way, the spirit killing way.

Now might be a time to forget the Irish way and just pick a group of coaches that would encourage a 'winning' way.

SecretFly wrote:With a good coaching team...that can design a gameplan around the players at their disposal instead of forcing a redundant gameplan on players ill suited to it..... yep, they'd have a shot at a title.

But that's always the case. IRFU, and even certain journalists and past players, continue to promote this idea that there is an Irish way to play the game and that we must keep to our way of doing things. Kidney himself has used the line during his tenure...we play it our way....there is an Irish way to play.

Well our way is now proven itself to be the wrong way, the unproductive way, the energy sapping/injury inducing way, the boringly predictable way, the spirit killing way.

Now might be a time to forget the Irish way and just pick a group of coaches that would encourage a 'winning' way.

Did he mean the "way" which had Ireland consistently the 5th best team in the 5 Nations? Kick it up in the air and run after it? Give it a lash for 40 minutes? Yes. Yes he did.

Oh look. We're 5th again.

And interesting point on the injuries. I've been wracking my brains about this. Because it's been consistent for years now. A horrible injury rate season after season. Is it just bad luck? I was thinking maybe the player protection thingy was actually having the reverse effect and making them less ready for the heat of test rugby.

But maybe it's simply their tactics. Kick the ball away. Then tackle yourself into the ground trying to stop them from scoring. Must be very hard on the body putting in that many tackles game after game. Or maybe its just bad luck. But I definitely feel the Irish aren't as fit or as strong as their competitors.

Remember all them tackles we had to make against Wales. SOB alone made over 20 in one game!!! It could definately be down to the tactics.

Notch wrote:I think things are actually not stacked overly in favour of the provinces. We have the most 'compliant' system of any of the Six Nations. Our coach has more access to players than any coach in the Six Nations. Our coach is the only one in the Six Nations who can have a direct say in where players play for their province.

It is not compliance, the Union directly funds the provinces so in effect the players belong to the Union not the provinces anyways. Where it has gone wrong is that the provinces and fans have lost sight of what the provinces are, they are branches of the Union not independent franchises. Our system is based on the NZ one but unlike NZ the national coach is not actively involved in running the provinces in terms of dictating a common style of play, tactics and selection.

The provinces have been given too much freedom and now the tail is wagging the dog. The problems started with Munster's European odessey and now a monster has been created. We are obsessed with a mickey mouse club competition, that only a handful of team take seriously and which will be confined to the history books in a couple of years, whilst in the tournaments that do actually matter - the 6N and RWC - our results and performances are quite frankly embarrassing. Wales have won more 6N titles in 2 years than we have in our history.

Our system doesn't work, it will ever work. Its founded on conservatism, parochialism and Irish small island mentality. We have wallowed in deluded self importance, put our players on pedestals like demi gods for too long. Our provinces aren't special, we aren't that good. We are wrapping average players in cotton wool, treating donkeys like thoroughbreads. The IRFU, media, sponsors and fans are all to blame.

There are positives, good young players coming through - Jackson, Henderson, Madigan, Hanaran, Zebo, Gilroy etc. - especially in the backs and we have proven quality players like Bowe, O'Connell etc. to come back but the time has come to take a long hard look at ourselves, stop papering over the cracks and take bold hard decisions to get us on the long hard road back to being a force in European rugby again.

P.S. Happy St Paddy's day

Iain Henderson did well I though. At one stage he drove Parisse back after his pickup from the scrum on the 5metre.

Theres plenty of individual positives. But the team as a whole is a mess.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yXjOQlCECgs&feature=youtu.be

Iain Henderson is a fantastic player. The present and future. One of the few bright lights at the end of a long dark tunnel we are a long way from emerging from.

Madigan looked class too, a duck in water at this level.... it's ridiculous that yesterday was his first cap. Despite the criticism Paddy Jackson has been excellent too.

Oh yea Clive! What's the weather like on the North coast?

Damp, but not raining currently! We call that a summers day...

OK cheers have a good one clive!

rodders wrote:It is not compliance, the Union directly funds the provinces so in effect the players belong to the Union not the provinces anyways. Where it has gone wrong is that the provinces and fans have lost sight of what the provinces are, they are branches of the Union not independent franchises. Our system is based on the NZ one but unlike NZ the national coach is not actively involved in running the provinces in terms of dictating a common style of play, tactics and selection.

One question; do you think that would be a good thing? Unless we're actually able to get a decent coach I can only see that making the provinces worse with no effect whatsoever on the national team.

If the national coach is actively involved in running the provinces, you better make damn sure you've got a good coach. If Declan Kidney was to interview for the position of Ulster coach tomorrow he wouldn't get it and we would be absolutely horrified at the idea, so why on earth would I be happy if he had even more input into how all the provinces were run? The input he has is generally less than constructive.

Truth is, sounds like too much responsibility for one man. We should have a Director of Rugby in charge of that and a coaching staff for the national team in charge of coaching them. But that is likely beyond the vision of the IRFU.

Yes, the IRFU sign the cheques but signing a cheque is about the limit of their competence. The less responsibility these puffed up amateurs have for anything the better. They've already been let loose on running one team thats dear to our heart into the ground, we can only hope and pray we find a way to keep them away from the others.

I thought there were a good few individual performances from Irish players over the tournament: SOB, Murray, Marshall, madigan had good tournaments when they were on

Also that first half vs Wales was very similar to our excellent first 60 against Argentina, that is the style of play we should be aiming for, multi-optional points of attack and off the cuff reading of the game coupled with our very impressive defence

rodders wrote:

Notch wrote:I think things are actually not stacked overly in favour of the provinces. We have the most 'compliant' system of any of the Six Nations. Our coach has more access to players than any coach in the Six Nations. Our coach is the only one in the Six Nations who can have a direct say in where players play for their province.

It is not compliance, the Union directly funds the provinces so in effect the players belong to the Union not the provinces anyways. Where it has gone wrong is that the provinces and fans have lost sight of what the provinces are, they are branches of the Union not independent franchises. Our system is based on the NZ one but unlike NZ the national coach is not actively involved in running the provinces in terms of dictating a common style of play, tactics and selection.

The provinces have been given too much freedom and now the tail is wagging the dog. The problems started with Munster's European odessey and now a monster has been created. We are obsessed with a mickey mouse club competition, that only a handful of team take seriously and which will be confined to the history books in a couple of years, whilst in the tournaments that do actually matter - the 6N and RWC - our results and performances are quite frankly embarrassing. Wales have won more 6N titles in 2 years than we have in our history.

Our system doesn't work, it will ever work. Its founded on conservatism, parochialism and Irish small island mentality. We have wallowed in deluded self importance, put our players on pedestals like demi gods for too long. Our provinces aren't special, we aren't that good. We are wrapping average players in cotton wool, treating donkeys like thoroughbreads. The IRFU, media, sponsors and fans are all to blame.

There are positives, good young players coming through - Jackson, Henderson, Madigan, Hanaran, Zebo, Gilroy etc. - especially in the backs and we have proven quality players like Bowe, O'Connell etc. to come back but the time has come to take a long hard look at ourselves, stop papering over the cracks and take bold hard decisions to get us on the long hard road back to being a force in European rugby again.

P.S. Happy St Paddy's day

Cant agree with you there Rodders. The success of the provinces is vital because these are the teams people pay to see week in, week out. If the provinces struggle then fewer people will look to rugby and not many will rock up to lansdowne every 6months to see the internationals.

We have the players. Some are getting over the hill, some are proving themselves in the Heineken Cup. What we dont have is a hint of a gameplan or an ability to play rugby with ball in hand. That much is evident from the 6N. Yes, like any structure there are issues, not least the problems at TH and succession planning but this stems from the national team.

Iain Henderson needs to be told to learn a position. If Ireland want him at lock then so be it. Lets get him in the side this summer alongside POC and invest in bringing him through. Thats just as a for instance. Robbie Henshaw is another one. Is he a 13 or a 15? Versatility is great but we need to identify who the next generation are and invest in them in certain positions. It wont be a painless process, it wont always work and it may mean ruffling some feathers and making some unpopular calls but when cant (as an example) keep flogging Rob kearney at 15 in EVERY SINGLE international and then when he breaks down, bemoan the lack of a decent replacement.

Notch wrote:

rodders wrote:It is not compliance, the Union directly funds the provinces so in effect the players belong to the Union not the provinces anyways. Where it has gone wrong is that the provinces and fans have lost sight of what the provinces are, they are branches of the Union not independent franchises. Our system is based on the NZ one but unlike NZ the national coach is not actively involved in running the provinces in terms of dictating a common style of play, tactics and selection.

One question; do you think that would be a good thing? Unless we're actually able to get a decent coach I can only see that making the provinces worse with no effect whatsoever on the national team.

If the national coach is actively involved in running the provinces, you better make damn sure you've got a good coach. If Declan Kidney was to interview for the position of Ulster coach tomorrow he wouldn't get it and we would be absolutely horrified at the idea, so why on earth would I be happy if he had even more input into how all the provinces were run? The input he has is generally less than constructive.

Truth is, sounds like too much responsibility for one man. We should have a Director of Rugby in charge of that and a coaching staff for the national team in charge of coaching them. But that is likely beyond the vision of the IRFU.

Yes, the IRFU sign the cheques but signing a cheque is about the limit of their competence. The less responsibility these puffed up amateurs have for anything the better. They've already been let loose on running one team thats dear to our heart into the ground, we can only hope and pray we find a way to keep them away from the others.

You've answered the question notch, its a good thing for the national side if we have a top coach...maybe less so for the provinces as they would lose some autonomy. If we don't have a top head coach its good for no one.

I would be quite down on a lack of autonomy for the provinces. If the coaches see something special in a player they should be encouraged to go for it, try and develop it because in the long run that will be for the best for the national side.

Ultimately the closer the coach is to a player, the more time he spends with him, the better placed he is to make a call about where he is best employed. Say some talented kid is coming through and the coach wants to give him a run. But wait! He's the same position as a centrally contracted player at the same province.

Well we should be backing the coach to give him a run there if he feels he's good for it, because he might just be better than the centrally contracted player. And the provincial coach is best placed to make that call.

We'd want to be careful about putting straight jackets on our provincial coaches- if you've got the talent in the coaches at that level, let them have free reign in selection and tactics.

I'm also very wary about central contracts. Now there's less central contracts, its pretty much tantamount to giving some guys a guaranteed place in the squad. And if that starts to be reflected in provincial selections, its trouble.

I think you Irish guys on here are looking to much into this, ok perhaps Ireland do need a change of coaches, but there is no shame in loosing to Italy these days, Italy are a nation on the up, it is the only direction they could go, now that Italy have a fully professional system, with the potential they have it does not take a genius to know that they will not be whipping boys for ever, Italy in Italy is not a given anymore, if England were playing in Italy, in Italy this year I doubt they would have beaten them, or Scotland for that matter, Italy showed at Twickenham that they have the ability to compete with any of the six nations sides now, and Treviso are really making ground at regional/Province level, I actually had Italy as favourites on Saturday as Ireland have not been at the races since the first half against Wales. Look, you guys need to put this down as just another loss against a decent team, Italy are no longer battling it out with the Portugal's and the Spain's of European rugby anymore, they are now an European force who could beat any of the other nations in Europe, and you would have to be living under a rock to not notice the strides they are making, look at the support they get, there is no shame in Ireland loosing on Saturday, the thing is this will not be the last time you loose to Italy.

At least you now know what it feels like.

Notch wrote:I would be quite down on a lack of autonomy for the provinces. If the coaches see something special in a player they should be encouraged to go for it, try and develop it because in the long run that will be for the best for the national side.

Ultimately the closer the coach is to a player, the more time he spends with him, the better placed he is to make a call about where he is best employed. Say some talented kid is coming through and the coach wants to give him a run. But wait! He's the same position as a centrally contracted player at the same province.

If you look at just two Ulster players, L Marshall & Craig Gilroy, bench warmers for Ulster, both got selected over centrally contracted players (P Wallace & Trimble) for Ireland.

I can give you several examples from Munster (O'Leary, DOC, Stringer, ROG - all dropped when still on central contract for young player not on central contract).

LordDowlais wrote:I think you Irish guys on here are looking to much into this, ok perhaps Ireland do need a change of coaches, but there is no shame in loosing to Italy these days, Italy are a nation on the up, it is the only direction they could go, now that Italy have a fully professional system, with the potential they have it does not take a genius to know that they will not be whipping boys for ever, Italy in Italy is not a given anymore, if England were playing in Italy, in Italy this year I doubt they would have beaten them, or Scotland for that matter, Italy showed at Twickenham that they have the ability to compete with any of the six nations sides now, and Treviso are really making ground at regional/Province level, I actually had Italy as favourites on Saturday as Ireland have not been at the races since the first half against Wales. Look, you guys need to put this down as just another loss against a decent team, Italy are no longer battling it out with the Portugal's and the Spain's of European rugby anymore, they are now an European force who could beat any of the other nations in Europe, and you would have to be living under a rock to not notice the strides they are making, look at the support they get, there is no shame in Ireland loosing on Saturday, the thing is this will not be the last time you loose to Italy.

At least you now know what it feels like.

Losing to Italy isn't the problem,the problem is we have been poorly coached for over 3 years now and we're sick of it.If our players were playing the best rugby they could and still losing I'd have no problem but the fact that we're not playing well and still only losing games by a score or less leads me to believe that we could be a decent team.

A lot of us have been calling for a change of management for over 3 years now and every year we have persisted with Kidney and co. the team have become poorer.It's pure frustration at this stage but thankfully change now has to come,it's just a pity the IRFU made the mistake of reappointing Kidney before the WC when most of us could see he wasn't capable of doing the job any more.2 years have been wasted paying for that mistake.

LordDowlais wrote:I think you Irish guys on here are looking to much into this, ok perhaps Ireland do need a change of coaches, but there is no shame in loosing to Italy these days, Italy are a nation on the up, it is the only direction they could go, now that Italy have a fully professional system, with the potential they have it does not take a genius to know that they will not be whipping boys for ever, Italy in Italy is not a given anymore, if England were playing in Italy, in Italy this year I doubt they would have beaten them, or Scotland for that matter, Italy showed at Twickenham that they have the ability to compete with any of the six nations sides now, and Treviso are really making ground at regional/Province level, I actually had Italy as favourites on Saturday as Ireland have not been at the races since the first half against Wales. Look, you guys need to put this down as just another loss against a decent team, Italy are no longer battling it out with the Portugal's and the Spain's of European rugby anymore, they are now an European force who could beat any of the other nations in Europe, and you would have to be living under a rock to not notice the strides they are making, look at the support they get, there is no shame in Ireland loosing on Saturday, the thing is this will not be the last time you loose to Italy.

At least you now know what it feels like.

Em...we Irish know all that Lord. Remember it's been mostly Irish voices defending Italian involvement in the Pro12 and more importantly defending their right to have a continued interest in the top European event (at present the HC) It's been mostly Irish voices saying they are not the no-hopers outsiders believe them to be (AP and Top 14 fans) And I've read here on these pages quite a lot of impatience amongst Welsh Pro12 followers about Italian sides clogging up both Pro12 and HC with shoddy unworthy rugby.

Irish followers know what Italy is and what it can do. It doesn't stop us from saying that Italy, the one playing at the weekend, would not have beaten an Irish side (even the one with all the injuries) that was being coached Ireland isn't being coached, and educated observers of the game would admit to that one readily.

Coaching at Ireland international level is the issue for Irish fans, not the ability of Italy. That's for them to think about. Ireland is what will animate Irish followers.

Oh btw... you are right about Ireland not being at the races....but wrong in the time frame you use...it's been much longer now than the second half against Wales....much longer.

[quote="rodders"][quote="Notch"]

rodders wrote:It is not compliance, the Union directly funds the provinces so in effect the players belong to the Union not the provinces anyways. Where it has gone wrong is that the provinces and fans have lost sight of what the provinces are, they are branches of the Union not independent franchises. Our system is based on the NZ one but unlike NZ the national coach is not actively involved in running the provinces in terms of dictating a common style of play, tactics and selection.

The IRFU have gone down certain playing styles though - at one stage Aussie coaches were all the rage (Williams, Ella, Gaffney, Cheika, Knox, McGahan, Fisher) now it seems that NZ coaches are all the rage.

One question; do you think that would be a good thing? Unless we're actually able to get a decent coach I can only see that making the provinces worse with no effect whatsoever on the national team.

Ireland will probably be more effective against SH opposition (I wonder is having so many Aussie coaches the reason why we can regularly beat Australia).

If the national coach is actively involved in running the provinces, you better make damn sure you've got a good coach. If Declan Kidney was to interview for the position of Ulster coach tomorrow he wouldn't get it and we would be absolutely horrified at the idea, so why on earth would I be happy if he had even more input into how all the provinces were run? The input he has is generally less than constructive.

What an arrogant comment. Crickey you'd think Ulster had won something in the last 10 years. Interesting that Ulster turned down Kidney back in 2004 for Mark McCall (Kidney was told to withdraw his application).

Truth is, sounds like too much responsibility for one man. We should have a Director of Rugby in charge of that and a coaching staff for the national team in charge of coaching them. But that is likely beyond the vision of the IRFU.

Eh, that is the plan. I keep telling you that Kidney is going to be the new IRFU Director of Rugby and Les Kiss is going to be the new Ireland Head Coach. Kidney will be dictating to the provinces who they can bring in and not. He will be interviewing staff etc. Wigglesworth doesn't have the technical coaching understanding for it even though he is a professional since 1998 (as CEO for Leinster prior to his IRFU appointment).

Yes, the IRFU sign the cheques but signing a cheque is about the limit of their competence. The less responsibility these puffed up amateurs have for anything the better. They've already been let loose on running one team thats dear to our heart into the ground, we can only hope and pray we find a way to keep them away from the others.

Only mistake that the IRFU has made is letting the Provinces become too strong. If the provinces were crap, everyone would be jumping on the Ireland bandwagon.

Sin é wrote:

Only mistake that the IRFU has made is letting the Provinces become too strong. If the provinces were crap, everyone would be jumping on the Ireland bandwagon.

...but you enjoyed Munster's period in the sun all the same - huh Sin???

Of course you did. And weren't they the blasted beginning of sorts of Provincial dominance anyway...and who was the bucko in charge of them back then?????

SecretFly wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:I think you Irish guys on here are looking to much into this, ok perhaps Ireland do need a change of coaches, but there is no shame in loosing to Italy these days, Italy are a nation on the up, it is the only direction they could go, now that Italy have a fully professional system, with the potential they have it does not take a genius to know that they will not be whipping boys for ever, Italy in Italy is not a given anymore, if England were playing in Italy, in Italy this year I doubt they would have beaten them, or Scotland for that matter, Italy showed at Twickenham that they have the ability to compete with any of the six nations sides now, and Treviso are really making ground at regional/Province level, I actually had Italy as favourites on Saturday as Ireland have not been at the races since the first half against Wales. Look, you guys need to put this down as just another loss against a decent team, Italy are no longer battling it out with the Portugal's and the Spain's of European rugby anymore, they are now an European force who could beat any of the other nations in Europe, and you would have to be living under a rock to not notice the strides they are making, look at the support they get, there is no shame in Ireland loosing on Saturday, the thing is this will not be the last time you loose to Italy.

At least you now know what it feels like.

Coaching at Ireland international level is the issue for Irish fans, not the ability of Italy. That's for them to think about. Ireland is what will animate Irish followers[/quote]

Well you see secretfly, it is about Italy's ability, infact it was their ability to beat you on Saturday that wone them the game, or are you now saying that Ireland lost the game rather than Italy won it? This is what is sticking out on this thread, Italy won because they were better, not because the Irish are now all of a sudden coached wrongly, If you think you need new coaches then fair enough, but Italy beat you because they have been getting steadily better over the last couple of years and they are only going to get better, so we can all look out, , there is no shame in loosing to this current Italian side.

LordDowlais wrote:

Well you see secretfly, it is about Italy's ability, infact it was their ability to beat you on Saturday that wone them the game, or are you now saying that Ireland lost the game rather than Italy won it? This is what is sticking out on this thread, Italy won because they were better, not because the Irish are now all of a sudden coached wrongly, If you think you need new coaches then fair enough, but Italy beat you because they have been getting steadily better over the last couple of years and they are only going to get better, so we can all look out, , there is no shame in loosing to this current Italian side.

Lord, enjoy your Six nations title and I'll decide what I'm saying. But I won't be defending the temerity of what I say to you...and I certainly won't be saying Italy's ability is now my concern. Ireland is my concern and it's what Ireland continue to do wrong and not what Italy might be doing right that will be getting my attention on these boards.

That Italy, the very one playing at the weekend - would not (I'll repeat it, if you really want no confusion) Would Not have beaten an Irish side being coached. Fact. You feel sore for the insult to Italian rugby if you like...even write the IRFU a stinking letter of admonishment for a fan gone AWOL But I'll repeat everything I've said to you again and again for as long as you'd continue to ask the question.

You're not all that observant a guy if you haven't already known that Irish fans have been at each others throats for years now about our Coaching team...for years.... not 'suddenly' after the Welsh game.

Enjoy the Championship ... but enjoy it without cruising around 606 trying to rub people's noses in it. We ain't dumb in these parts.

Look, I am not rubbing anyones noses in anything, I have not mentioned Wales once on this thread, you lost to Italy, deal with it, but do not belittle their result and say that Ireland only lost because of their coaches, Italy are a good side now, and this will not be the last time you loose to them, but when you loose to them again in the future you can always use your new coaches as an excuse.

SecretFly wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Only mistake that the IRFU has made is letting the Provinces become too strong. If the provinces were crap, everyone would be jumping on the Ireland bandwagon.

...but you enjoyed Munster's period in the sun all the same - huh Sin???

Of course you did. And weren't they the blasted beginning of sorts of Provincial dominance anyway...and who was the bucko in charge of them back then?????

Thing is that when Munster were strong, Ireland were strong Munster were always considered the outsiders when it came to Ireland so they were not missed.

The big problem is Leinster. The IRFU are dependent on the interest of South Dublin supporters for ticket sales to the Aviva (and thats why they didn't move to a greenfield site larger site). South Dubliners can now go to the Aviva a couple of times a year to see a winning team so they couldn't be bothered going to watch Ireland.

LordDowlais wrote:Look, I am not rubbing anyones noses in anything, I have not mentioned Wales once on this thread, you lost to Italy, deal with it, but do not belittle their result and say that Ireland only lost because of their coaches, Italy are a good side now, and this will not be the last time you loose to them, but when you loose to them again in the future you can always use your new coaches as an excuse.

We lost. It won't be the last time. That's nature at work, Lord - not analysis. You said Italy were a better side. Because they won?

On another thread you're asking why Wales can't always play (and obviously win) like they did against England. I'd suggest the answer might be in the 'excuses' you say I make for Ireland?

Why should Wales expect to win any given game if they are the weaker side? So should Wales always expect to play like they did against England? Why do the sometimes lose? Is is because they sometimes lack on the coaching side or simply because they are simply and coldly not always the better side and that losing proves it?

And if losing proves you are always the poorer side then asking questions about why Wales sometimes performs and sometimes doesn't becomes obsolete and pointless.

Be careful what you're looking for in an argument, Lord. It sometimes stares you in the face.

Why are you bringing Wales into this ? I was talking about Italy, and the fact I think you guys on here are looking to far into this loss, look, this was not like the loss in Scotland where Ireland were far superior everywhere except on the scoreboard, Italy actually took the game to you and you lost, it happens sometimes, but to just dismiss Italy's win and put it all down to Declan Kidney's fault is a little insulting to Italy, Italy are an improving nation, and loosing to them is not the same as it was before, Italy have not been thrashed at home for years now, actually they have not been threashed anywhere for ages, the only person on here who is looking for an argument is you seretfly as you keep bringing my country into this when we are discussing Ireland and Italy.

LordDowlais wrote:
Well you see secretfly, it is about Italy's ability, infact it was their ability to beat you on Saturday that wone them the game, or are you now saying that Ireland lost the game rather than Italy won it? This is what is sticking out on this thread, Italy won because they were better, not because the Irish are now all of a sudden coached wrongly, If you think you need new coaches then fair enough, but Italy beat you because they have been getting steadily better over the last couple of years and they are only going to get better, so we can all look out, , there is no shame in loosing to this current Italian side.

I think quite a lot of people have been banging the drum of the side looking poorly coached for quite a long time! I mean, for nearly three years with the protests growing ever louder with every winning streak that grinds to a halt and new low in the rankings. This is a team that is getting progressively worse every season and the fact the coaches position has become untenable is due to a accumulation of disappointing performances and results.

There's no shame in losing to Italy; but its the manner of the performance which is being questioned. Because certainly the Italians weren't spectacular. A damn sight better than us and showed considerably more imagination and ambition with the ball in hand- by all means deserving winners- was just hard to shake the feeling we were there for the taking and a better side would have put a big score on us. They should have really killed us off, had a lot of territory and possession they failed to turn into points. They didn't play that well though, they didn't play that well against France either- often they'd put together a few great phases and then the gains would be squandered due to a silly error or knock-on. They did some great stuff and they did some bad stuff and they were the better side on both occasions regardless of the mistakes they made but still... They deserve credit for the way they are playing and the progress they have made, but there are are very clear weaknesses a better side could exploit.

As a test match, it was of desperately poor quality with Ireland but quite some distance the poorer of the two sides. I think any side that plays that poorly needs to be question itself regardless of the outcome. Even in victory, it would have been far from good enough. Like I say- its the performance which has us despondent.

LordDowlais wrote:Look, I am not rubbing anyones noses in anything, I have not mentioned Wales once on this thread, you lost to Italy, deal with it, but do not belittle their result and say that Ireland only lost because of their coaches, Italy are a good side now, and this will not be the last time you loose to them, but when you loose to them again in the future you can always use your new coaches as an excuse.

We did lose because of our coaches,Kidney has been a millstone around our neck for 4 years now and has dragged the team down with him.It has been slow but steady progression in the wrong direction and we've been pointing it out for years so this isn't a knee jerk reaction.

The fact that we were within a score in all our matches despite the continued hopeless coaching that we've all been pointing out for over 3 years now is a credit to the quality of player we have available and I hope we get a new man in who can devise a gameplan which enables them to play close to their potential.

Sin é wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Only mistake that the IRFU has made is letting the Provinces become too strong. If the provinces were crap, everyone would be jumping on the Ireland bandwagon.

...but you enjoyed Munster's period in the sun all the same - huh Sin???

Of course you did. And weren't they the blasted beginning of sorts of Provincial dominance anyway...and who was the bucko in charge of them back then?????

Thing is that when Munster were strong, Ireland were strong Munster were always considered the outsiders when it came to Ireland so they were not missed.

The big problem is Leinster. The IRFU are dependent on the interest of South Dublin supporters for ticket sales to the Aviva (and thats why they didn't move to a greenfield site larger site). South Dubliners can now go to the Aviva a couple of times a year to see a winning team so they couldn't be bothered going to watch Ireland.

Ah ah...turning an argument around to suit your clothes again Sin. Munster were the beginning of Provinces getting above themselves and the current Irish Head was Munster's head back then...so lets just drop the accusation that Provinces (Leinster!!! ) are getting above themselves and ruining International.

Now, the other point.... the highlighted one. It's not the fans who don't go to Lansdowne that's the problem as the ground always seems to have enough of a crowd to make a noise. The problem is the fans who actually do go...... the guys who cough and splutter outside with pints in their hands before games and then twitter and tweet about the lack of atmosphere. The problem is the same fans who rush off to piddle and drink some more during the games...and the fans who rush off before the end of games to do some more piddling and drinking - the real attraction of a modern Stadium it seems.

That's the real issue, Sin. It's not that the Stadium isn't full it's that it is full of deadbeat pint guzzlers who have little appetite for the true significance of the game being played on the field, for their intoxicated entertainment.

LordDowlais wrote:Why are you bringing Wales into this ? I was talking about Italy, and the fact I think you guys on here are looking to far into this loss, look, this was not like the loss in Scotland where Ireland were far superior everywhere except on the scoreboard, Italy actually took the game to you and you lost, it happens sometimes, but to just dismiss Italy's win and put it all down to Declan Kidney's fault is a little insulting to Italy, Italy are an improving nation, and loosing to them is not the same as it was before, Italy have not been thrashed at home for years now, actually they have not been threashed anywhere for ages, the only person on here who is looking for an argument is you seretfly as you keep bringing my country into this when we are discussing Ireland and Italy.

I'm engaging with the argument and you don't like the course it's taking. You make a point about inherent ability and how it swings from one side to another then expect a call back in more general terms. Same theory rules applies to all sides, Lord.

Of all the 6N teams the side with the best 'attack' of the last 3 or 4 years has been Ireland. Barring the first half vs Wales that seems to have just gone this year. Sad.

Yes ok secretfly, but lets not get bogged down into saying Italy only won because of the Irish coaches and Declan Kidney in particular, ok they might have some blame in this, but lets not take anything away from Italy, this nation has come on leaps and bounds and I fear we will all have to get used to loosing to them in time, I know it hurts when you loose, and I know it hurts when you know your team is capable of more, I know this more than any other after all I am Welsh, but lets give credit to Italy and the fact they have had their best six nations since their inception, they won because on the day they were better, so instead of tar and feathering the Irish coaches, give a well done to the Italian one's, like I have had to on more than one occasion.

lostinwales wrote:Of all the 6N teams the side with the best 'attack' of the last 3 or 4 years has been Ireland. Barring the first half vs Wales that seems to have just gone this year. Sad.

It's all down to the forwards really. I think we've based our attack on our forwards being able to trundle the ball up and create some go-forward and thats covered a multitude of sins in terms of how well drilled we are in attack, because in previous years we've had more ball carriers available to us. This year we've lacked ball carriers, especially in the backrow, and we have no real tactics outside give it to the big fella and hope he can trundle on and make a few yards.

This year its just been slow ball from a ruck going to one isolated forward standing isolated who takes contact... it's not very refined. And it can work, sometimes, if you have the ball carriers. Every team needs a forward or two who can get you going forward off slow ball. We simply lack power, but also finesse and structure. Our attack is lamentable.

With the amount of slow ball coming back we've had little recourse but to kick the ball away- even that can be a good strategy given the right kick and a good kick chase but it's all incredibly aimless and disorganised. We'll hoist it high and no-one will chase it- makes you wonder what on earth they've been doing on training. We often look like a team of individuals.

LordDowlais wrote: so instead of tar and feathering the Irish coaches, give a well done to the Italian one's, like I have had to on more than one occasion.

I don't get this. I don't think anyone is not giving credit to Italy. They were better. But this is about more than Italy, this is about a long, slow slide towards also-ran status over many test matches. The discussion relates to our last several years.

I disagree with the people who say the only reason we lost to Italy was due to Declan Kidney. Doesn't matter what he does if we're constantly losing the collisions and our own lineouts. But he's unable to see or fix the problems.

LordDowlais wrote:Yes ok secretfly, but lets not get bogged down into saying Italy only won because of the Irish coaches and Declan Kidney in particular, ok they might have some blame in this, but lets not take anything away from Italy, this nation has come on leaps and bounds and I fear we will all have to get used to loosing to them in time, I know it hurts when you loose, and I know it hurts when you know your team is capable of more, I know this more than any other after all I am Welsh, but lets give credit to Italy and the fact they have had their best six nations since their inception, they won because on the day they were better, so instead of tar and feathering the Irish coaches, give a well done to the Italian one's, like I have had to on more than one occasion.

That's what the well done Italy thread is for,this one is about Ireland.

Lord, Italy didn't use any excuses to go ahead and take advantage of any weaknesses they saw in opposing sides. They went for France (you have to admit, a shadow of their true ability this season - yes?) So Italy went for them, didn't let them off the hook, heaped pressure and played a game that won. And they deserved the win because winning deserves the plaudits.

Incidently, Italy also have a new coach! No of course nobody is blaming the new coach for giving fresh eyes to Italian players? I've heard quite a bit of praise actually. Which kinda proves the idea that a coach truly does do something for his paycheck, if he's actually earning it. A coach has a role to play and he gets paid quite a substantial fee to prove it.

But onwards.... Italy played Ireland and yes...they obviously played the better game and quite obviously Italy's version of a good game has improved greatly. I've said so in the past, I've posted so in the past. As I said previously, the Irish aren't short on praising the development of Italian rugby; and in a way we take pride in it to the extent that we feel exposure to Pro12 has done its share of the work. Not all of it but certainly a good chunk of it. Meaning Italian development is proof that Pro12 can hold its own against the big two of AP and Top 14.

We were beaten by a better side...my groans prove it to the extent that many of us say this is the last straw for Kidney and his coaches. We're unhappy because we were beaten by a better side. We're fed up being beaten by better sides. We've had it being beaten by better sides.

But our reasoning is that the sides are better because we have one hand tied behind our backs with our weak coaching. Sides are better because of two things...good players plus good coaching. No side is good that is stuffed with great players and burdened with terrible coaching. It just doesn't work. You have to have both.

So we say we've had it with having one hand tied behind our backs for so long. That's our right to say that, to think it and to believe it. We feel we have better players that deserve a better shot than the current level of coaching at International level provides. We cruise towards the next world cup as misfiring lame ducks and from an Irish perspective we need that to end.

We can live with losing games - the Irish in historical terms are much more familiar with that idea than Wales. We don't need lessons in losing. We can live with losing if we feel it is a step towards winning in the future. This coaching outfit we have now has being sliding downhill for years and the records prove it.

No nation of fans would tolerate that slide without looking for fresh eyes in the coaching department - and we Irish don't tolerate that slide either.

You can be a bit long winded sometimes Fly (no offense intended) but that post is an excellent representation of my feelings on the subject.

SecretFly wrote:No nation of fans would tolerate that slide without looking for fresh eyes in the coaching department - and we Irish don't tolerate that slide either.

If that is the case how did Graham Henry & his coaching team get a second go at coaching the ABs in 2007? Must have taken the injuries to some key players as a contributor factor to this phenomenally well prepared tea to get knocked out of the 1/4 final, and ignored leaving such key experienced players like Doug Howlett in the stands.

Clive Woodwards is another one who was given the benefit of the doubt for his second contract.

My point is, lots of fans are tolerant of coaching errors.

Calling someone longwinded is offensive leftshoulder. Just to clear that up.

But you're not the first one to say it to me and I'm shamefully thick skinned. But 606 will be glad to know I'll be gone soon enough for a long spell.. you can all breathe smoother in your brevity then

But you see, I find the clientelle here often need any argument one makes to be long and winded before most of them acknowledge you have a point! You see how long and winded it took me for Lord to acknowledge that the idea of 'better side' can be dropped onto any side that actually wins. And yet so many of us trip over ourselves each year trying to prove the opposite with our ref put-downs and injury excuses and home advantage cries.

http://www.planetrugby.com/story/0,25883,3551_8575888,00.html

Ewen McKenzie leaves the Queensland Reds. Looks like he's angling for the Australia job- either way, would be worth offering an interview to. Not an unqualified fan of his but the net should be cast as wide as possible. And if he gets the job which is probably his main priority, Australia, it means Robbie Deans is free and he'd also be worth talking to.

Sin é wrote:

SecretFly wrote:No nation of fans would tolerate that slide without looking for fresh eyes in the coaching department - and we Irish don't tolerate that slide either.

If that is the case how did Graham Henry & his coaching team get a second go at coaching the ABs in 2007? Must have taken the injuries to some key players as a contributor factor to this phenomenally well prepared tea to get knocked out of the 1/4 final, and ignored leaving such key experienced players like Doug Howlett in the stands.

Clive Woodwards is another one who was given the benefit of the doubt for his second contract.

My point is, lots of fans are tolerant of coaching errors.

My apologies. Correction then - I'm not ; when it extends to years. But you're right, you always prove that some of us will always remain tolerant.