Can Ireland beat Italy?

First topic message reminder :

Italy are well overdue beating Ireland and I can see them pushing very hard for a second 6N victory. As an irishman I'll be watching this game very nervously in what may be O driscolls and kidneys last game...

I suppose the real issue facing Ireland is that as good as some of our players are there is no cohesion and a total lack of leadership. Heaslip is not captain material but to be honest after BOD and POC who is there? POM maybe has the look of a leader but don't think he is guaranteed starter.

marshall is another great find this championship he has really stood up.

tactics are huge. we don't have big guys and accordingly need to change our tactics

What are the realistic shouts for new coach?

People need to stop calling for Schmidt. He doesnt want it!!

Feckless Rogue wrote:What are the realistic shouts for new coach?

If rumours are to be believed Les Kiss is in pole position to take over.

LeinsterFan4life wrote:People need to stop calling for Schmidt. He doesnt want it!!

Yep, he is planning on heading back to New Zealand, he has been away for a long time.

If you don't have a physical pack Rodders then you need to do something else to compete. Look at Australia- a pretty terrible pack with two excellent flankers and they consistently are second best in the world and win over New Zealand. If you have naturally good footballers but lack physicality then use those talents to build a team with its own identity. Kidney thought he could replicate what he did with Munster to Ireland. He doesn't have the players to do it. We badly miss the work of David Wallace and the only comparable player in the Dark Arts to Quinlan is Chris Henry who was the form 7 in Europe so naturally wasn't selected. Murrays distribution is simply woeful though his kicking is improving. If e could pass with his feet we'd be sorted. And Sexton hasn't ft the kicking game of ROG in his pomp. We couldn't play like Munster but Kidney doesn't know any other way

What an atmosphere at the Wales game. Think that's another thing holding us back! Aviva is too quiet, dunno why but needs to be more hostile, like thomond or ravers!

valjester wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:People need to stop calling for Schmidt. He doesnt want it!!

Yep, he is planning on heading back to New Zealand, he has been away for a long time.

agree it's disillusioned at this stage

Hookisms and Hyperbole wrote:If you don't have a physical pack Rodders then you need to do something else to compete. Look at Australia- a pretty terrible pack with two excellent flankers and they consistently are second best in the world and win over New Zealand. If you have naturally good footballers but lack physicality then use those talents to build a team with its own identity. Kidney thought he could replicate what he did with Munster to Ireland. He doesn't have the players to do it. We badly miss the work of David Wallace and the only comparable player in the Dark Arts to Quinlan is Chris Henry who was the form 7 in Europe so naturally wasn't selected. Murrays distribution is simply woeful though his kicking is improving. If e could pass with his feet we'd be sorted. And Sexton hasn't ft the kicking game of ROG in his pomp. We couldn't play like Munster but Kidney doesn't know any other way

couldn't agree more

He may stay though until his son finishes school. Schmidts son actually plays for the leinster u20s. A pretty handy scrumhalf.

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:

Hookisms and Hyperbole wrote:If you don't have a physical pack Rodders then you need to do something else to compete. Look at Australia- a pretty terrible pack with two excellent flankers and they consistently are second best in the world and win over New Zealand. If you have naturally good footballers but lack physicality then use those talents to build a team with its own identity. Kidney thought he could replicate what he did with Munster to Ireland. He doesn't have the players to do it. We badly miss the work of David Wallace and the only comparable player in the Dark Arts to Quinlan is Chris Henry who was the form 7 in Europe so naturally wasn't selected. Murrays distribution is simply woeful though his kicking is improving. If e could pass with his feet we'd be sorted. And Sexton hasn't ft the kicking game of ROG in his pomp. We couldn't play like Munster but Kidney doesn't know any other way

couldn't agree more

brains/brawn and all that

Sorry not the u20s. The u19s

Was working today lads so only getting to watch the game after the Wales game. Is it really as bad as what I've read here?

very bad

I'll watch it later wtth a few beer to see if that makes it any easier.

careful alcohol is a depressant .....

LeinsterFan4life wrote:People need to stop calling for Schmidt. He doesnt want it!!

Connor O'Shea has ruled himself out but interestingly we've heard nothing from Schmidt at the moment. If he wasn't interested he would have ruled himself out by now. Thats my theory anyway!

Its also an amnesiac pete (possible made up word)

profitius wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:People need to stop calling for Schmidt. He doesnt want it!!

Connor O'Shea has ruled himself out but interestingly we've heard nothing from Schmidt at the moment. If he wasn't interested he would have ruled himself out by now. Thats my theory anyway!

not necessarily

The Boss wrote:Its also an amnesiac pete (possible made up word)

well played sir

Les Kiss?? He's part of the problem surely? Why would they appoint one of the coaches that's overseeing this shambles?

I often hear people say Schmidt doesn't want it. But I don't know where that's coming from. I've never heard him say that. He's contracted to Leinster though.

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:

Hookisms and Hyperbole wrote:If you don't have a physical pack Rodders then you need to do something else to compete. Look at Australia- a pretty terrible pack with two excellent flankers and they consistently are second best in the world and win over New Zealand. If you have naturally good footballers but lack physicality then use those talents to build a team with its own identity. Kidney thought he could replicate what he did with Munster to Ireland. He doesn't have the players to do it. We badly miss the work of David Wallace and the only comparable player in the Dark Arts to Quinlan is Chris Henry who was the form 7 in Europe so naturally wasn't selected. Murrays distribution is simply woeful though his kicking is improving. If e could pass with his feet we'd be sorted. And Sexton hasn't ft the kicking game of ROG in his pomp. We couldn't play like Munster but Kidney doesn't know any other way

couldn't agree more

brains/brawn and all that

Yes you need both...problem is we have neither.....

rodders wrote:

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:

Hookisms and Hyperbole wrote:If you don't have a physical pack Rodders then you need to do something else to compete. Look at Australia- a pretty terrible pack with two excellent flankers and they consistently are second best in the world and win over New Zealand. If you have naturally good footballers but lack physicality then use those talents to build a team with its own identity. Kidney thought he could replicate what he did with Munster to Ireland. He doesn't have the players to do it. We badly miss the work of David Wallace and the only comparable player in the Dark Arts to Quinlan is Chris Henry who was the form 7 in Europe so naturally wasn't selected. Murrays distribution is simply woeful though his kicking is improving. If e could pass with his feet we'd be sorted. And Sexton hasn't ft the kicking game of ROG in his pomp. We couldn't play like Munster but Kidney doesn't know any other way

couldn't agree more

brains/brawn and all that

Yes you need both...problem is we have neither.....

australia don't have brawn
s.africa, england don't have brains

you can win with one or the other

The Boss wrote:Was working today lads so only getting to watch the game after the Wales game. Is it really as bad as what I've read here?

How bad was it?....well just make sure you keep any firearms or sharp instruments locked away before watching....

valjester wrote:

Feckless Rogue wrote:What are the realistic shouts for new coach?

If rumours are to be believed Les Kiss is in pole position to take over.

...

Flabbergasted

Notch wrote:

valjester wrote:

Feckless Rogue wrote:What are the realistic shouts for new coach?

If rumours are to be believed Les Kiss is in pole position to take over.

...

Flabbergasted

+1

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:australia don't have brawn
s.africa, england don't have brains

you can win with one or the other

Australia and SA aren't great sides and no ones we should aspire to be. That said we don't have Australia's pace or skill nor SA's physicality.

We are neither as physical or smart as England, let alone Wales. Both these sides offload in the tackle and have clear game plans as well as powerful ball carriers.

We have small men with poor ball skills running head down into contact and booting the ball away aimlessly. Our most effective attacking ploy is the box kick.

We have small men with poor ball skills running head down into contact and booting the ball away aimlessly. Our most effective attacking ploy is the box kick.

Yes, a fair summary of where we are.

Fortunately we have coaches at all the provinces who put a big emphasis on basic skills and build their gameplans around offloading. Also, our Academys are improving all the time. Ulster were sledged for moving McLaughlin to a skills coaching role at youth level but that looks more crucial than ever.

We can't play the power game, so we have to be fitter, more mobile and more creative. We have to have 15 players who can create space with an offload out of contact or a clever line of running and keep the ball alive. It's very far from the way Kidney has us playing.

I think there's a psychological thing to be addressed too, these players are certainly more skillful than they showed today. We're dominated by the fear of making a mistake.

More than anything else today, I was disgusted to see Luke Marshall leaving the field with concussion. If it's an indicator his concussion had not cleared up its hugely irresponsible to put him in that situation. BOD too.

Concussion is something we have to start taking seriously. It's not worth risking a players long term health for any game of rugby. Hell, I'd rather Paul Marshall had started at 12 than a still concussed Luke!

We have players to play the kind of game Australia play (prob not as well as them) coaching tactics has been really poor and I believe is the reason we are not a good team

Notch wrote:More than anything else today, I was disgusted to see Luke Marshall leaving the field with concussion. If it's an indicator his concussion had not cleared up its hugely irresponsible to put him in that situation. BOD too.

Concussion is something we have to start taking seriously. It's not worth risking a players long term health for any game of rugby. Hell, I'd rather Paul Marshall had started at 12 than a still concussed Luke!

Yeah agree Notch... getting back to back concussions is not good at all.

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:We have players to play the kind of game Australia play (prob not as well as them) coaching tactics has been really poor and I believe is the reason we are not a good team

Australia are not a good side. The NZ template is the way rugby should be played. It isn't rocket science, Leinster play a pseudo kiwi style and Ulster have at times this year.

Rugby is won in the forwards though and the problems start at grassroots. We paper over the cracks at provincial level with imports but get found out at International level again.

Notch is right about the improvements at Schoolboy level with McLaughlin but this has to be done at a national level, the standard of skills and conditioning needs to be raised across the board. Looking at the Wales v England game we should be very worried about the future. Both have cleared out the overseas players at club level and whilst this has impacted their performances at HEC level they are reaping the benefits at National level.

By contrast France and Ireland are dominating European club rugby but are lacking quality and depth in key positions.

I think Australia are a good side.

Ultimately Ireland should be playing the game the way Leinster do

rodders wrote:

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:We have players to play the kind of game Australia play (prob not as well as them) coaching tactics has been really poor and I believe is the reason we are not a good team

Australia are not a good side. The NZ template is the way rugby should be played. It isn't rocket science, Leinster play a pseudo kiwi style and Ulster have at times this year.

Rugby is won in the forwards though and the problems start at grassroots. We paper over the cracks at provincial level with imports but get found out at International level again.

Notch is right about the improvements at Schoolboy level with McLaughlin but this has to be done at a national level, the standard of skills and conditioning needs to be raised across the board. Looking at the Wales v England game we should be very worried about the future. Both have cleared out the overseas players at club level and whilst this has impacted their performances at HEC level they are reaping the benefits at National level.

By contrast France and Ireland are dominating European club rugby but are lacking quality and depth in key positions.

Reading that you'd feel sorry for Kidney. The fact is we do have the players but its a badly coached team. The attacking plan is to kick the ball up into the air and chase. Players are getting isolated and players are encouraged to play it safe.

France are another shambolic team and its not just about the selection of Freddie at 10.

profitius wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:People need to stop calling for Schmidt. He doesnt want it!!

Connor O'Shea has ruled himself out but interestingly we've heard nothing from Schmidt at the moment. If he wasn't interested he would have ruled himself out by now. Thats my theory anyway!

He ruled himself out 1-2 years ago.

No I don't feel sorry for Kidney. He's had a far longer run than he deserved. The team has been on a downward spiral since 2010.

That said the problems are bigger than just the national coaching team.

He has failed to put a balanced,cohesive team on the field with an effective gameplan. He hasn't used the bench well and the conditioning seems to be behind that of our rivals. He hasn't planned well in terms of giving players experience and he is prone to knee jerk selection decisions rather than proactive ones.

What he can't be blamed for is our lack of tight 5 forwards, poor skill levels and execution and the lack of depth across key positions... the lack of leadership and character shown by experienced players.

Kidney needs to go, as do Kiss and Smal but there is no silver bullet to solve all our problems. We've wasted a generation and now we are bottom of the pile in Europe and have a long road back to even challenging for triple crowns.

Kidney to consider future...

"I said all along that I'd concentrate on each game as it came and that's all I've done today," Kidney said. "I wasn't thinking that this could be my last match as coach, all I was concentrating on was getting the win.

"I wanted to get a result out of today, we didn't manage to do that and we'll reflect on it over the coming days and weeks.

"I'd have to sit down and think about whether I want a new contract. These guys are a pleasure to work with, but beyond that I'd have to sit back and think about it."

While succumbing to Italy may spell the end of Kidney, it could also have been Brian O'Driscoll's last Ireland match with his future undecided beyond the summer.

O'Driscoll spent 10 minutes in the sin-bin for stamping and was fortunate to escape a red card for an offence that is sure to result in a suspension.

"Brian has had a strong Six Nations given everything that has been going on for him," Kidney said. "He was outstanding against Wales and had a good match against France. I thought he did well today too.

"He's earned the space and time to be able to make up his own mind. Players are the only ones who know when the time is right to go."


by the way he's talking you'd swear it was up to him if he wants to sign a contract extension.

LeinsterFan4life wrote:by the way he's talking you'd swear it was up to him if he wants to sign a contract extension.

Wouldn't put it past the IRFU. They love a yes man.

Hookisms and Hyperbole wrote:If you don't have a physical pack Rodders then you need to do something else to compete. Look at Australia- a pretty terrible pack with two excellent flankers and they consistently are second best in the world and win over New Zealand. If you have naturally good footballers but lack physicality then use those talents to build a team with its own identity. Kidney thought he could replicate what he did with Munster to Ireland. He doesn't have the players to do it. We badly miss the work of David Wallace and the only comparable player in the Dark Arts to Quinlan is Chris Henry who was the form 7 in Europe so naturally wasn't selected. Murrays distribution is simply woeful though his kicking is improving. If e could pass with his feet we'd be sorted. And Sexton hasn't ft the kicking game of ROG in his pomp. We couldn't play like Munster but Kidney doesn't know any other way

Amen to that (and I'm not religious).

Notch wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:by the way he's talking you'd swear it was up to him if he wants to sign a contract extension.

Wouldn't put it past the IRFU. They love a yes man.

The man is completely delusional to actually come out and say; "I'd have to sit down and think about whether I want a new contract". is quite insulting

LeinsterFan4life wrote:

Notch wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:by the way he's talking you'd swear it was up to him if he wants to sign a contract extension.

Wouldn't put it past the IRFU. They love a yes man.

The man is completely delusional to actually come out and say; "I'd have to sit down and think about whether I want a new contract". is quite insulting

He shouldn't even be given the chance to resign. He should be sacked. No aspiring mid tier, let alone top tier, nation would accept this dross. It says more about the IRFU than Kidney. The lunatics are running the asylum.

rodders wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:

Notch wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:by the way he's talking you'd swear it was up to him if he wants to sign a contract extension.

Wouldn't put it past the IRFU. They love a yes man.

The man is completely delusional to actually come out and say; "I'd have to sit down and think about whether I want a new contract". is quite insulting

He shouldn't even be given the chance to resign. He should be sacked. No aspiring mid tier, let alone top tier, nation would accept this dross. It says more about the IRFU than Kidney. The lunatics are running the asylum.

The IRFU love him. He is their perfect coach.

Just a thought guys, I wonder how many of you would swap the focus on the regions you have in Ireland for the equivalent focus that the Welsh regions recieve from the WRU.
Its been a good day as a Welsh fan today but by tomorrow my mind will be back on the Scarlets and the big issue for all the Welsh regions of how the WRU just view us as feeder clubs for them with nothing really put back in on their part..
Is it possible to have both tiers strong?

2ndtimeround wrote:Just a thought guys, I wonder how many of you would swap the focus on the regions you have in Ireland for the equivalent focus that the Welsh regions recieve from the WRU.
Its been a good day as a Welsh fan today but by tomorrow my mind will be back on the Scarlets and the big issue for all the Welsh regions of how the WRU just view us as feeder clubs for them with nothing really put back in on their part..
Is it possible to have both tiers strong?

Of course it is. Ireland were strong on both fronts. Then the IRFU hired Kidney. Then they gave him a contract extension after he was proven to be not delivering anything like a coherent game plan let alone a successful team.

Wales are successful in spite of their impoverished, unsupported regions not because of them.

In fact domestic and international success generally go hand in hand in most countries. Ireland and Wales have been exceptions to the rule in recent times for their own particular reasons.

That contract extension before the RWC has truely destroyed us. Why couldn't they learn from EOS. Do you not have to be educated to get a job at the IRFU?

2ndtimeround wrote:Just a thought guys, I wonder how many of you would swap the focus on the regions you have in Ireland for the equivalent focus that the Welsh regions recieve from the WRU.
Its been a good day as a Welsh fan today but by tomorrow my mind will be back on the Scarlets and the big issue for all the Welsh regions of how the WRU just view us as feeder clubs for them with nothing really put back in on their part..
Is it possible to have both tiers strong?

You are spot on. Things are stacked in favour of the provinces and we've lost the run of things. I think is a balancing act and we don't have that balance.

However I say that today as an Ireland fan....in a few weeks all I'll be thinking about is Ulster in the Heino and Rabo and this shambolic 6N will be a distant memory.....

LeinsterFan4life wrote:That contract extension before the RWC has truely destroyed us. Why couldn't they learn from EOS. Do you not have to be educated to get a job at the IRFU?

+1

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:

rodders wrote:

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:

Hookisms and Hyperbole wrote:If you don't have a physical pack Rodders then you need to do something else to compete. Look at Australia- a pretty terrible pack with two excellent flankers and they consistently are second best in the world and win over New Zealand. If you have naturally good footballers but lack physicality then use those talents to build a team with its own identity. Kidney thought he could replicate what he did with Munster to Ireland. He doesn't have the players to do it. We badly miss the work of David Wallace and the only comparable player in the Dark Arts to Quinlan is Chris Henry who was the form 7 in Europe so naturally wasn't selected. Murrays distribution is simply woeful though his kicking is improving. If e could pass with his feet we'd be sorted. And Sexton hasn't ft the kicking game of ROG in his pomp. We couldn't play like Munster but Kidney doesn't know any other way

couldn't agree more

brains/brawn and all that

Yes you need both...problem is we have neither.....

australia don't have brawn
s.africa, england don't have brains

you can win with one or the other

And yet you can also lose regularly without either.

Rodders, the strange thing is, it's all actually stacked in favour of the test team and against the provinces. The provinces are forced to limit the gametime of their best players, sometimes forced to take a player off after a particular amount of time. This is to keep them rested for internationals. They're forced to play players out of position for benefit of the national team. They're very limited in what foreign players they can sign, for the benefit of the national team.

In spite of all this the provinces are successful and the Irish team is an omnishambles.