Wales v England Official Match Thread

[RubyGuby]

First topic message reminder :

It's 5th v 4th in the World Rankings on Sat. and a real opportunity for 1 of these sides to put another marker down in their development - These games now have even greater significance given that we share the same RWC Pool in 2015 - The fact that Wales have won the last 2 meetings between these old foes will count for nothing - It should be Awesome .

Good luck to both teams and both sets of fans

[Luckless Pedestrian]

Cas, we went wide (and from deep) a few times against the Wallabies in the autumn - we just didn't finish off the breaks. We can play attacking rugby in the backs, it's just that we don't do it often. I'm hoping we will on Saturday.

LP the way the game has been referee'd this championship any team is lucky to get enough phases of play to open up wide spaces without a ref calling a penalty.

Maes, this is exactly the point: we don't need to go through phases to manufacture a defensive mismatch. We have big, fast, dangerous wingers and Ashton and Brown opposite them (Brown's a decent defender but he's not a winger). The defensive mismatch is already there. Go wide early, I say.

[maestegmafia]

A lot of the trolls have vanished, waiting to see if they can show their face on Saturday evening, or alternatively just bin their troll uids after the final whistle.

The mods were working hard yesterday to keep a balance...! God bless them they doing a sterling job.

[Casartelli]

Cas, we went wide (and from deep) a few times against the Wallabies in the autumn - we just didn't finish off the breaks. We can play attacking rugby in the backs, it's just that we don't do it often. I'm hoping we will on Saturday.

LP the way the game has been referee'd this championship any team is lucky to get enough phases of play to open up wide spaces without a ref calling a penalty.

Maes, this is exactly the point: we don't need to go through phases to manufacture a defensive mismatch. We have big, fast, dangerous wingers and Ashton and Brown opposite them (Brown's a decent defender but he's not a winger). The defensive mismatch is already there. Go wide early, I say.

Exactly - first phase is perfect when we have big, fast athletes out there (and against something of a defensive chink in an otherwise brutal armour). At a minimum we're guaranteed to get over the gainline - but we'd also disrupt their defensive pattern (crucial, such is the modern game).

Backrow would have to work a lot harder to cover ground - if only we had really mobile, athletic flankers and No.8 like, say, Warburton, Faletau and that young Tipuric....oh, wait a sec...



Won't do it though. Bishbosh is the system and the system we shall play.

[maestegmafia]

I agree mismatching our wingers vs theirs out wide is a great tactic to break England's gain line and open space for supporting players.

Looking at Fofana's excellent try it was Bastareux coming infield dragging a defence with him and Fofana taking a scissors into space that really exploited England out wide.

Similar to Cuthbert's try vs Italy...!

Englands back three also looked out of position in defence for Masi's try last weekend with a neat chip over the top.

Similar to North's try in Paris earlier on.

[Casartelli]

I agree mismatching our wingers vs theirs out wide is a great tactic to break England's gain line and open space for supporting players.

Looking at Fofana's excellent try it was Bastareux coming infield dragging a defence with him and Fofana taking a scissors into space that really exploited England out wide.

Similar to Cuthbert's try vs Italy...!

Englands back three also looked out of position in defence for Masi's try last weekend with a neat chip over the top.

Similar to North's try in Paris earlier on.

What do you reckon Maes? Will Howley unleash North & Cuthbert early?

Or will he play conservative rugby, hoping it opens up later? If he does, will it be enough?

[maestegmafia]

I agree mismatching our wingers vs theirs out wide is a great tactic to break England's gain line and open space for supporting players.

Looking at Fofana's excellent try it was Bastareux coming infield dragging a defence with him and Fofana taking a scissors into space that really exploited England out wide.

Similar to Cuthbert's try vs Italy...!

Englands back three also looked out of position in defence for Masi's try last weekend with a neat chip over the top.

Similar to North's try in Paris earlier on.

What do you reckon Maes? Will Howley unleash North & Cuthbert early?

Or will he play conservative rugby, hoping it opens up later? If he does, will it be enough?

I know it is often misconceived, but Howley isn't playing.

I doubt that much that happens on the pitch will be down to him. Biggar and Phillips are the ones responsible for what happens tactically, where we play the game and to what the outside backs are offered. All Howley and the coaches will do is offer analysis and advice.

What happens on the pitch is down to the players.

[Casartelli]

You should be a politician Maes!

[gregortree]

I agree mismatching our wingers vs theirs out wide is a great tactic to break England's gain line and open space for supporting players.

Looking at Fofana's excellent try it was Bastareux coming infield dragging a defence with him and Fofana taking a scissors into space that really exploited England out wide.

Similar to Cuthbert's try vs Italy...!

Englands back three also looked out of position in defence for Masi's try last weekend with a neat chip over the top.

Similar to North's try in Paris earlier on.

I sincerely hope and expect Bomber is very much aware. They will have reviewed the video nasties.
England loosies will have been told to be on their mettle in helping to protect those wide spaces.

[maestegmafia]

Cas, we went wide (and from deep) a few times against the Wallabies in the autumn - we just didn't finish off the breaks. We can play attacking rugby in the backs, it's just that we don't do it often. I'm hoping we will on Saturday.

LP the way the game has been referee'd this championship any team is lucky to get enough phases of play to open up wide spaces without a ref calling a penalty.

Maes, this is exactly the point: we don't need to go through phases to manufacture a defensive mismatch. We have big, fast, dangerous wingers and Ashton and Brown opposite them (Brown's a decent defender but he's not a winger). The defensive mismatch is already there. Go wide early, I say.

Ashton's defensive weakness might be another reason why they have picked Croft over Haskell, maybe Croft will lurk on the wings as old Worsley played flyhalf for them in defence a few years ago.

[gregortree]

Croft is a wide space lurker. Capable of being more 'wing' than 'forward' if required and that includes his carrying.

[maestegmafia]

In nearly every game this season taking the ball through the breakdown avoiding the tacklers waiting on the fringes is a very profitable tactic. Forming a maul on the charge or just taking forward the ball and setting up phase after phase. Wales took the Scots to pieces doing so last week, as did France vs England in the first Half at Twickenham a few weeks before.

[maestegmafia]

Average age of the Welsh team is 26
Average Caps per man of the Welsh team is 41

Average age of the England team is 25
Average Caps per man of the England team is 20

[100%beefy]

Massive faith in Croft and a huge ask of him....if he shows expect him to be on tour too

[lostinwales]

Massive faith in Croft and a huge ask of him....if he shows expect him to be on tour too

But hes that good a player that he should be able to front up. I know you guys would feel the same had Lydiate had a couple of games before this weekend.

[100%beefy]

Massive faith in Croft and a huge ask of him....if he shows expect him to be on tour too

But hes that good a player that he should be able to front up. I know you guys would feel the same had Lydiate had a couple of games before this weekend.

Yes he is a class apart..awesoem in 2009. TBH if Lydiate is even fit he will go. Gats has form for taking walking wounded and he knows the lad. But I hope Croft goes, offers so much and Wood is going a bit off boil for me...I can see a Robshaw/Warbs, Faletau and Lydiate/Croft back row working very nicely

[100%beefy]

Average age of the Welsh team is 26
Average Caps per man of the Welsh team is 41

Average age of the England team is 25
Average Caps per man of the England team is 20

Wales at home and only as many as 6 English even played at Millie, doubt anyone has won there...it bodes well, home crowd, pressure is on them etc But this is a class English side and players like Gethin, Jones, AWJ, Sam, MP, Jamie and LH have to play like leaders.

[maestegmafia]

Average age of the Welsh team is 26
Average Caps per man of the Welsh team is 41

Average age of the England team is 25
Average Caps per man of the England team is 20

Wales at home and only as many as 6 English even played at Millie, doubt anyone has won there...it bodes well, home crowd, pressure is on them etc But this is a class English side and players like Gethin, Jones, AWJ, Sam, MP, Jamie and LH have to play like leaders.

We have a very experienced and still young team. But these lads have only shown a couple of times how to close out a win and seal an accomplishment. The Ireland win in the 1/4 finals and the Grand Slam win last year vs France.

[100%beefy]

Average age of the Welsh team is 26
Average Caps per man of the Welsh team is 41

Average age of the England team is 25
Average Caps per man of the England team is 20

Wales at home and only as many as 6 English even played at Millie, doubt anyone has won there...it bodes well, home crowd, pressure is on them etc But this is a class English side and players like Gethin, Jones, AWJ, Sam, MP, Jamie and LH have to play like leaders.

We have a very experienced and still young team. But these lads have only shown a couple of times how to close out a win and seal an accomplishment. The Ireland win in the 1/4 finals and the Grand Slam win last year vs France.

Much as i admire the sentiment, I think that is somewhat selective appreciation of Welsh form on the back of a mini resurgence after what can only be described as a maxi meltdown. And as for closing out close games, seriously, that is not a strength of this side Maes.

[maestegmafia]

Average age of the Welsh team is 26
Average Caps per man of the Welsh team is 41

Average age of the England team is 25
Average Caps per man of the England team is 20

Wales at home and only as many as 6 English even played at Millie, doubt anyone has won there...it bodes well, home crowd, pressure is on them etc But this is a class English side and players like Gethin, Jones, AWJ, Sam, MP, Jamie and LH have to play like leaders.

We have a very experienced and still young team. But these lads have only shown a couple of times how to close out a win and seal an accomplishment. The Ireland win in the 1/4 finals and the Grand Slam win last year vs France.

Much as i admire the sentiment, I think that is somewhat selective appreciation of Welsh form on the back of a mini resurgence after what can only be described as a maxi meltdown. And as for closing out close games, seriously, that is not a strength of this side Maes.

That is exactly what I stated. It is not a strength, it is a weakness of this team. They have had many opportunities to close out must win games and failed. Australia, the IRB Rankings, the RWC semi, the RWC 3rd/4th play off.

The welsh team have a hell of a lot to prove and this is a great time to set down a marker against a very talented England team who will be in our group come the next RWC.

[100%beefy]

well if they do it sets us up for a run in to RWC 2015....and if they don't it will be a further signal to England they are world beaters...but for me NZ is still an outlier...do it again and i will be convinced

[thomh]

I agree mismatching our wingers vs theirs out wide is a great tactic to break England's gain line and open space for supporting players.

Looking at Fofana's excellent try it was Bastareux coming infield dragging a defence with him and Fofana taking a scissors into space that really exploited England out wide.

Think you've misremembered the try to be honest. There was no scissors, and Bastareaud didn't really contribute much to it other than an average pass to Fofana, who beat two poor attempted tackles with his footwork and then outsprinted some pretty pacy defenders. There was nothing systematically wrong with England's defence for the try. It was just individual brilliance combined with rubbish tackling.

[gavstar]

maes, there is a game plan. to say howley is not responsible is cr*p.

the team are told the game plan, they are told when to try a planned move , ie, when you are in such and such positon on the field, call is two rucks then the move, or three rucks etc. everyone says we are predictable, it is rugby by numbers, and to say howley is not responsible is a joke!!!! he's the coach. how many players have come out and said as much? how many have said we planned this before hand.etc.

shanklin said all on scrum v " we dont need creativity the way we play, the centres are given a job to do when they get ball run straight"

and if you dont follow the plan.......theres the door ( hooky!!!)couldnt help himself, had to go off plan.

to suggest that howley will just analyse or give advice on what the players are doing is absolute rubbish.

[Morgannwg]

Well I'm off for the weekend now. Good luck England, and Wales. I shall return by monday afternoon regardless of win or lose, either gloating or blaming the ref.

[maestegmafia]

I agree mismatching our wingers vs theirs out wide is a great tactic to break England's gain line and open space for supporting players.

Looking at Fofana's excellent try it was Bastareaud coming infield dragging a defence with him and Fofana taking a scissors into space that really exploited England out wide.

Think you've misremembered the try to be honest. There was no scissors, and Bastareaud didn't really contribute much to it other than an average pass to Fofana, who beat two poor attempted tackles with his footwork and then outsprinted some pretty pacy defenders. There was nothing systematically wrong with England's defence for the try. It was just individual brilliance combined with rubbish tackling.

You are right actually Bastareaud takes the ball heading strait, holding the defence, Fofana takes it on an angle looping towards the outfield, skillfully evades a second row and a winger plus a few more chasers.

My point was that committing England's better defenders infield rather than outfield is a good way to exploit England's lack of defence on the wings and with space, particularly Ashton's wing as demonstrated with the Fofana try.

[A World Cup and 3 Finals]

England absolutely should and must win this game. Our victory against the ABs and dominance, albeit in defeat over SA and Aus, means England have kicked on and deserve their place at the top table.
Although I'll admit it was a stuttering performance against Italy - hopefully just one of "those" games we needed to get out of the works, this England team is a class apart from the Welsh team. I'd probably only have Halfpenny in the England XV and if Foden were truly fit not even him.
If England really are to push on and fulfill their potential we must put Wales away comprehensively and if we don't I shall be very disappointed.

[thomh]

I agree mismatching our wingers vs theirs out wide is a great tactic to break England's gain line and open space for supporting players.

Looking at Fofana's excellent try it was Bastareaud coming infield dragging a defence with him and Fofana taking a scissors into space that really exploited England out wide.

Think you've misremembered the try to be honest. There was no scissors, and Bastareaud didn't really contribute much to it other than an average pass to Fofana, who beat two poor attempted tackles with his footwork and then outsprinted some pretty pacy defenders. There was nothing systematically wrong with England's defence for the try. It was just individual brilliance combined with rubbish tackling.

You are right actually Bastareaud takes the ball heading strait, holding the defence, Fofana takes it on an angle looping towards the outfield, skillfully evades a second row and a winger plus a few more chasers.

My point was that committing England's better defenders infield rather than outfield is a good way to exploit England's lack of defence on the wings and with space, particularly Ashton's wing as demonstrated with the Fofana try.

I think that point is valid actually - neither Brown or Ashton are particularly positionally sound (Brown just through inexperience) - I just don't see the Fofana try as a great example of it.

[bedfordwelsh]

Well after starting to wonder if I was wrong about Howley he goes and not only names Jenkins as starting but also as captain DOH.

I feel Cole will have a field day against Jenkins and we should have started with James, as for captaincy if it wasn't going to go to Warburton then AWJ should have got it.

[yappysnap]

This is the game where Manu Tuilagi wakes up and plays a stormer. Just you wait, he's going to make the whole Welsh backline his bitches

[100%beefy]

I think Jenks will step up everywhere...this is his moment and he just has to. I am not concerned about him handling Cole in the scrum....he is not there to steal like Cole can do, but to be sure Melon will steal a ball or two.

[bedfordwelsh]

Yappy,

He may well do and I am a big fan of his but on the flip side I also hope the same can be said for JD then it will be very interesting.

Before injury and dips in form Tuilagi and JD were my Lions centre combo and who knows could still be.

[bedfordwelsh]

I think Jenks will step up everywhere...this is his moment and he just has to. I am not concerned about him handling Cole in the scrum....he is not there to steal like Cole can do, but to be sure Melon will steal a ball or two.

Beefy,

I hope you are right and I am proved very wrong indeed.

[RDSguru]

Is Geth starting something to do with him being about a half stone heavier than James, thus keeping the overall scrum heavier and balanced, especially as Tips starting at 6 is giving up around 2 stone over Ryan?

Can't work out the captaincy though

[Breadvan]

I feel sick just thinking about 1700 on sat...

[maestegmafia]

I feel sick just thinking about 1700 on sat...

I am looking forward to it. It's a good England team against a reasonably good welsh team with both teams having everything to gain from a good win.

Rugby doesn't get any better outside the RWC

[Heaf]

Let's hope both teams continue to improve and knock Australia out in the pool stages ...

[100%beefy]

I feel sick just thinking about 1700 on sat...

I am looking forward to it. It's a good England team against a reasonably good welsh team with both teams having everything to gain from a good win.

Rugby doesn't get any better outside the RWC

I feel sick thinking about how i am going to feel on sunday morning if we win on saturday + + =

[A World Cup and 3 Finals]

I feel sick just thinking about 1700 on sat...

I am looking forward to it. It's a good England team against a reasonably good welsh team with both teams having everything to gain from a good win.

Rugby doesn't get any better outside the RWC

I feel sick thinking about how i am going to feel on sunday morning if we win on saturday + + =

Wouldn't bother getting the alka seltzer in there beefy - save your benefit money for the macdonalds if I were you.

[Hood83]

Croft is a wide space lurker. Capable of being more 'wing' than 'forward' if required and that includes his carrying.

I think it's a terrible decision to start Croft, as good as he is, that back-row offers zero balance and zero ball carrying. SL's preference for rangey line-out flankers is going to come a cropper soon and I think it'll be this game.

[Hood83]

Massive faith in Croft and a huge ask of him....if he shows expect him to be on tour too

It's a bad bad call in my opinion. Haskell has not played as badly as people have suggested and his carrying without Morgan has been the best by our back-row players i.e. he's actually managed to get over the gainline. I actually feel for the guy, maybe Croft's been great in training but it seems like SL's adopted the 'form's temporary, class permanent' argument. Has Croft earned a start with only a game or so under his belt? I don't think so.

We've got very little go forward in that pack. Yes, plenty of mobility, but it's not much good if it's all backwards. Croft, Wood and Robshaw might be quick enough to compete at the breakdown with Warburton and Tipuric, but I don't think they'll be powerful enough to regularly shift them.

[Jimpy]

I feel sick just thinking about 1700 on sat...

I am looking forward to it. It's a good England team against a reasonably good welsh team with both teams having everything to gain from a good win.

Rugby doesn't get any better outside the RWC

I feel sick thinking about how i am going to feel on sunday morning if we win on saturday + + =

Wouldn't bother getting the alka seltzer in there beefy - save your benefit money for the macdonalds if I were you.

Love. It.

[maestegmafia]

Massive faith in Croft and a huge ask of him....if he shows expect him to be on tour too

It's a bad bad call in my opinion. Haskell has not played as badly as people have suggested and his carrying without Morgan has been the best by our back-row players i.e. he's actually managed to get over the gainline. I actually feel for the guy, maybe Croft's been great in training but it seems like SL's adopted the 'form's temporary, class permanent' argument. Has Croft earned a start with only a game or so under his belt? I don't think so.

We've got very little go forward in that pack. Yes, plenty of mobility, but it's not much good if it's all backwards. Croft, Wood and Robshaw might be quick enough to compete at the breakdown with Warburton and Tipuric, but I don't think they'll be powerful enough to regularly shift them.

It will be very interesting to see what the dynamic is between the new back rows. Wales benefit from having played together a few times in the Ireland, Italy and Scotland games, England's had the second half vs Italy to gel.

[Jimpy]

Massive faith in Croft and a huge ask of him....if he shows expect him to be on tour too

It's a bad bad call in my opinion. Haskell has not played as badly as people have suggested and his carrying without Morgan has been the best by our back-row players i.e. he's actually managed to get over the gainline. I actually feel for the guy, maybe Croft's been great in training but it seems like SL's adopted the 'form's temporary, class permanent' argument. Has Croft earned a start with only a game or so under his belt? I don't think so.

We've got very little go forward in that pack. Yes, plenty of mobility, but it's not much good if it's all backwards. Croft, Wood and Robshaw might be quick enough to compete at the breakdown with Warburton and Tipuric, but I don't think they'll be powerful enough to regularly shift them.

There is a lot of negativity surrounding Croft's selection. I don't understand why really. He works hard - all over the park. Is a dynamic lineout operator, attacks and defends very well (have you seen him at Tigers recently?) and has a rugby brain, which is more than you can say for Haskell, commitment or otherwise.

[Knackeredknees]

I see the mind games have started...

Geroge North: "Its not like a bad thing that they (Welsh Fans) hate them (English Fans) because they are nasty people"....

Werent you born in Kings Lynn??

jeeze i hope he didnt really say that!
Thought he was a much better person and comes across really well
Just show that theres a lot of xenophobic lies and racism beeing bred in Wales and there willing to just belive it.
Lets bese our whole mindset on the middle ages and older!!
god knows what he would have said if we had different colour skin?

[RubyGuby]

"Just show that theres a lot of xenophobic lies and racism beeing bred in Wales and there willing to just belive it."

Lets keep this neurotic drivel off here till next week eh. He's a good young man and people like you are just driving the media hype - that is the saddest part

[Knackeredknees]

"Just show that theres a lot of xenophobic lies and racism beeing bred in Wales and there willing to just belive it."

Lets keep this neurotic drivel off here till next week eh. He's a good young man and people like you are just driving the media hype - that is the saddest part

Thats what i said, but for him to come out with that is not the most intelligent thing to say.
Since he was born and moved to Wales how many Nasty things have the English done to Wales? Bearing in mind the last two PM's were Scottish!

[mpc28]

I see the mind games have started...

Geroge North: "Its not like a bad thing that they (Welsh Fans) hate them (English Fans) because they are nasty people"....

Werent you born in Kings Lynn??

jeeze i hope he didnt really say that!
Thought he was a much better person and comes across really well
Just show that theres a lot of xenophobic lies and racism beeing bred in Wales and there willing to just belive it.
Lets bese our whole mindset on the middle ages and older!!
god knows what he would have said if we had different colour skin?

Geordie has conveniently forget to add the next line to what George said which was "Its that they are a good team to beat and a good scalp to have."

[lostinwales]

Cant believe North's comments are being misinterpreted as much as they are. There is nothing wrong with his attitude at all. The only suggestion is that a vocal minority (well I hope its a minority) of the Welsh fans want to see blood

[RubyGuby]

Cant believe North's comments are being misinterpreted as much as they are. There is nothing wrong with his attitude at all. The only suggestion is that a vocal minority (well I hope its a minority) of the Welsh fans want to see blood

LostinWales - this is not the time for you to be posting sensible and balanced posts - you're giving me nowhere to go here, c'mon this aint fair

[gregortree]

Croft is a wide space lurker. Capable of being more 'wing' than 'forward' if required and that includes his carrying.

I think it's a terrible decision to start Croft, as good as he is, that back-row offers zero balance and zero ball carrying. SL's preference for rangey line-out flankers is going to come a cropper soon and I think it'll be this game.

The loss of Ben Morgan has messed things up a bit in the back row. This has lost us 'ooomph in the engage / shove and lost us some bullocking carrying in the loose.
Although people have mentioned Brother Vainipola and I'll mention Nick Easter who seems to be having a great run of form at Quins.
But Croft will act as a great lumberjack in wing defence. (Re, no 6 Lawes & Fofana ? Croft would have chopped him down)

[RubyGuby]

The selction of Easter at 8 and Wood at 6 would have unerved Wales

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