Wales v England Official Match Thread

[RubyGuby]

First topic message reminder :

It's 5th v 4th in the World Rankings on Sat. and a real opportunity for 1 of these sides to put another marker down in their development - These games now have even greater significance given that we share the same RWC Pool in 2015 - The fact that Wales have won the last 2 meetings between these old foes will count for nothing - It should be Awesome .

Good luck to both teams and both sets of fans

[munkian]

I dont think people want to actually see blood, just some guts and determined tackling

[Big]

"Just show that theres a lot of xenophobic lies and racism beeing bred in Wales and there willing to just belive it."

Lets keep this neurotic drivel off here till next week eh. He's a good young man and people like you are just driving the media hype - that is the saddest part

Thats what i said, but for him to come out with that is not the most intelligent thing to say.
Since he was born and moved to Wales how many Nasty things have the English done to Wales? Bearing in mind the last two PM's were Scottish!

As ever, read the full quote. Perhaps not brilliantly articulated by North, but essentially he's saying he wants to smash them about because they are a good side and a good scalp to get, not because he hate's them and they're nasty people.

Agree with lostinwales and mpc28.

[Geordie]

I checked and that quote from North wasnt totally correct so i deleted it.

Anyway

Im concerned at the ball carrying of our pack. where is the powerhouse whos consistantly going to make the yards in heavy traffic and pull in defenders...?? There isnt one. No Morgan, id have taken a chance on Billy V.

And im just not convinced with Croft. Yes adds a lineout presence..but thats only part of the role i want from my 6.

[munkian]

Robshaw is a good carrier as is Cole.

[gregortree]

Geordie
We miss Morgan's bulk at 8 but that is not the fault of the 6.
Croft's job will include Catcher Croft and also Chopper Croft.
The latter being a reprise of the Worzel role vs Roberts a few years ago.

[Effervescing Elephant]

Full quote from Auntie for the sake of balance:

"Everyone has got that common thing that everyone doesn't really like the English in rugby terms.

"But they are a great team, and have great qualities.

"It's not like a bad thing that they [Welsh fans] hate them [English] because they are nasty people.

"It's that they are a good team to beat and a good scalp to have."


Absolutely nowt wrong with any of that.

[killer938]

I checked and that quote from North wasnt totally correct so i deleted it.

Anyway

Im concerned at the ball carrying of our pack. where is the powerhouse whos consistantly going to make the yards in heavy traffic and pull in defenders...?? There isnt one. No Morgan, id have taken a chance on Billy V.

And im just not convinced with Croft. Yes adds a lineout presence..but thats only part of the role i want from my 6.

It is funny because after the games against Ireland and France last year when he was awesome people were saying how Croft was getting back to his Lions form, how he was proving them wrong, then he gets injured and in that time he has gone back to being just a lineout forward who stands on the wing again. At least give the lad a chance.

[munkian]

Geordie
We miss Morgan's bulk at 8 but that is not the fault of the 6.
Croft's job will include Catcher Croft and also Chopper Croft.
The latter being a reprise of the Worzel role vs Roberts a few years ago.

Problem for England now is that we also have two giant wingers and JD2 to watch out for

[RubyGuby]

I think Croft and Phillips will be having a battle

[maestegmafia]

Geordie
We miss Morgan's bulk at 8 but that is not the fault of the 6.
Croft's job will include Catcher Croft and also Chopper Croft.
The latter being a reprise of the Worzel role vs Roberts a few years ago.

Problem for England now is that we also have two giant wingers and JD2 to watch out for

And wee Dr Jamie

[gregortree]

Geordie
We miss Morgan's bulk at 8 but that is not the fault of the 6.
Croft's job will include Catcher Croft and also Chopper Croft.
The latter being a reprise of the Worzel role vs Roberts a few years ago.

Problem for England now is that we also have two giant wingers and JD2 to watch out for

Plenty of fun to be had then for all our lumberjacks in 2nd and back rows.

[maestegmafia]

Geordie
We miss Morgan's bulk at 8 but that is not the fault of the 6.
Croft's job will include Catcher Croft and also Chopper Croft.
The latter being a reprise of the Worzel role vs Roberts a few years ago.

Problem for England now is that we also have two giant wingers and JD2 to watch out for

Plenty of fun to be had then for all our lumberjacks in 2nd and back rows.

Backs against forwards, sounds like a great defensive plan.

[Hood83]

I checked and that quote from North wasnt totally correct so i deleted it.

Anyway

Im concerned at the ball carrying of our pack. where is the powerhouse whos consistantly going to make the yards in heavy traffic and pull in defenders...?? There isnt one. No Morgan, id have taken a chance on Billy V.

And im just not convinced with Croft. Yes adds a lineout presence..but thats only part of the role i want from my 6.

It is funny because after the games against Ireland and France last year when he was awesome people were saying how Croft was getting back to his Lions form, how he was proving them wrong, then he gets injured and in that time he has gone back to being just a lineout forward who stands on the wing again. At least give the lad a chance.

I'm with Geordie, Croft may not be such a luxury with Corbs and a bigger front 5. But we don't have that. Depends what you want from a 6. Croft is, for me, genuinely world class. But not at some of the stuff I think he needs to be to give this back-row balance. We simply do not have enough ball carriers.

[munkian]

Geordie
We miss Morgan's bulk at 8 but that is not the fault of the 6.
Croft's job will include Catcher Croft and also Chopper Croft.
The latter being a reprise of the Worzel role vs Roberts a few years ago.

Problem for England now is that we also have two giant wingers and JD2 to watch out for

And wee Dr Jamie

Maes, I meant that its all very well targetting one player and it worked in that match but Roberts is no longer the only big danger man.

[trebellbobaggins]

I've just seen who the ref is.

I think Wales can be even more confident now given his form.

[trebellbobaggins]

I'm with Geordie, Croft may not be such a luxury with Corbs and a bigger front 5. But we don't have that. Depends what you want from a 6. Croft is, for me, genuinely world class. But not at some of the stuff I think he needs to be to give this back-row balance. We simply do not have enough ball carriers.

I was looking at the team thinking this. The lack of a big ball carrier for Eng against that pack could be a killer.

On paper Wales look stronger and they are at home. Probably a 10 point win for them I'd think.

[maestegmafia]

I've just seen who the ref is.

I think Wales can be even more confident now given his form.

Same referee as last year at twickenham.

[trebellbobaggins]

Indeed. The ending to that one wasn't too encouraging. His history with them as a whole means I just don't think he should ever ref them.

[Geordie]

Ok just for the record i have never been a fan of Croft. For all his athletic abilities he doesnt offer the physical aspects that i want at 6. I was however the first to acknowledge when he played well last season....and if he can again find that form...then fair enough.

Robshaw is not a great carrier...his workrate is excellent and he makes many carriers...but invariably takes the ball slow, standing still etc...but as a 7 im not overly concerned. He has other more important jobs.

[maestegmafia]

Geordie
We miss Morgan's bulk at 8 but that is not the fault of the 6.
Croft's job will include Catcher Croft and also Chopper Croft.
The latter being a reprise of the Worzel role vs Roberts a few years ago.

Problem for England now is that we also have two giant wingers and JD2 to watch out for

And wee Dr Jamie

Maes, I meant that its all very well targetting one player and it worked in that match but Roberts is no longer the only big danger man.

No you are right, we won the game where Worsley covered for Goode at ten didn't we?

[englandglory4ever]

CROFT!!! I still can't get over it. Against Italy he was well off the pace, left dog legs in defence all over the pitch, (a sure sign he is not fit enough), Hung around on the wing, Never carried the ball once, and only got near the breakdown on 2 or 3 occasions. He is clearly is not ready. This is a massive error by SL. Haskell must feel very dejected and disappointed at the moment.

[gregortree]

Geordie
We miss Morgan's bulk at 8 but that is not the fault of the 6.
Croft's job will include Catcher Croft and also Chopper Croft.
The latter being a reprise of the Worzel role vs Roberts a few years ago.

Problem for England now is that we also have two giant wingers and JD2 to watch out for

Plenty of fun to be had then for all our lumberjacks in 2nd and back rows.

Backs against forwards, sounds like a great defensive plan.

Worked against Roberts (Worzel), let's try it again on a bigger scale.
But I have no idea if Bomber actually heeds the drivel I write on here any more than you do Maes !

[munkian]

I think so....

[Geordie]

I just dont get what everone sees in Croft...or Lydiate to be honest..now Ferris...theres a proper 6!

[maestegmafia]

I just dont get what everone sees in Croft...or Lydiate to be honest..now Ferris...theres a proper 6!

Lydiate is nothing like croft and a great deal like Ferris

[killer938]

Ok just for the record i have never been a fan of Croft. For all his athletic abilities he doesnt offer the physical aspects that i want at 6. I was however the first to acknowledge when he played well last season....and if he can again find that form...then fair enough.

Robshaw is not a great carrier...his workrate is excellent and he makes many carriers...but invariably takes the ball slow, standing still etc...but as a 7 im not overly concerned. He has other more important jobs.

Oh I know you were Geordie, it was refreshing to see (I just hope englandglory will do the same if he plays well tomorrow). I am a huge Croft fan, though being a Tigers fan that probably isn't surprising. I firmly believe he can get back to that level and maybe even better now he has put on that extra weight.

[nathan]

I just dont get what everone sees in Croft...or Lydiate to be honest..now Ferris...theres a proper 6!

We seem to go through this process every now and again. People say croft is rubbish, then he proves them wrong.

I dont think theres another player in the world that has to prove himself to people as much as croft.

[maestegmafia]

Ok just for the record i have never been a fan of Croft. For all his athletic abilities he doesnt offer the physical aspects that i want at 6. I was however the first to acknowledge when he played well last season....and if he can again find that form...then fair enough.

Robshaw is not a great carrier...his workrate is excellent and he makes many carriers...but invariably takes the ball slow, standing still etc...but as a 7 im not overly concerned. He has other more important jobs.

Oh I know you were Geordie, it was refreshing to see (I just hope englandglory will do the same if he plays well tomorrow). I am a huge Croft fan, though being a Tigers fan that probably isn't surprising. I firmly believe he can get back to that level and maybe even better now he has put on that extra weight.

Comparing the Croft, Wood and Robshaw combo last match to the Toby, Sam and Tips combo last match, the welsh lads looked a lot stronger taking Scotland apart at the breakdown while Englands backrow were really struggling to contain Italy.

[maestegmafia]

I just dont get what everone sees in Croft...or Lydiate to be honest..now Ferris...theres a proper 6!

We seem to go through this process every now and again. People say croft is rubbish, then he proves them wrong.

I dont think theres another player in the world that has to prove himself to people as much as croft.

Gavin Henson?

[thomh]

Has Gavin Henson has been underrated over the years?

[maestegmafia]

Has Gavin Henson has been underrated over the years?

He gets a lot of stick outside of Wales.

Croft was a fine player, he's been fast tracked back into the set up and I think the coaches can't work out what to do with that backrow, I think Wood, who was off his game last week may have been a better man to drop than Haskell.

That said England need to fill the void old Easter left, no one has made that place their own yet, maybe the you Vunipola lad would have been the best choice...?

We had not trouble throwing his cousin Toby in at a younger age and he has been a constant selection ever since.

[thomh]

Has Gavin Henson has been underrated over the years?

He gets a lot of stick outside of Wales.

True, but it's not like he's spent his entire career putting in a good shift only for his one-eyed doubters to keep criticising him - he's given people plenty of ammo.

[thomh]

On the England back row - I think Morgan has nailed the 8 shirt when he's played but he's just been injured. Our selection on the flanks when he's back and Wood is used as a 6 again is going to be a nightmare.

[gregortree]

But Gav messed up his career by perpetually taking breaks away to play rugby.

[nathan]

On the England back row - I think Morgan has nailed the 8 shirt when he's played but he's just been injured. Our selection on the flanks when he's back and Wood is used as a 6 again is going to be a nightmare.

a good nightmate mind you. I just hope Morgan can stay injury free.

[englandglory4ever]

".....while Englands backrow were really struggling to contain Italy."

That's because when Croft came on there was only 2 of them doing the hard graft.

[englandglory4ever]

"(I just hope englandglory will do the same if he plays well tomorrow)."

I assure you I have nothing personal against Croft. I speak as I find and I have never really been convinced by his ability at test level. If he plays well which is what I want to see because I passionately want England to win every game they play then I will be very pleased. I'm humble enough to eat pie when its necessary.

[Scrumpy]

Croft has been rushed back, Billy V should have got the nod against Italy, Wood isn't a force at 8, yet he is a very effective 6, so play him there.

I can't see us wining this one without a quality No8.

I hope I'm proved wrong.

[Geordie]

Maesteg,

See i dont actually see Lydiate like Ferris either. More like a Joe Worsley type.

Back to Croft,
I think why hes had to prove himself so much is because hes very different to peoples expectations for a 6...and so its difficult to analyze that.

We're used to seeing physical 6's being close to the main action in the tight - aggressive and tough...but Croft tends to float about a little more, and maybe people see that as him "hanging out with the backs" rather than putting his head where it hurts in the forwards.
Now im not daft i know he does the hard stuff...you dont stay a tigers forward if you cant do it....but i just dont know if he does it as much or as well as say his main competitior Tom Wood....

[englandglory4ever]

Croft has been rushed back, Billy V should have got the nod against Italy, Wood isn't a force at 8, yet he is a very effective 6, so play him there.

I can't see us wining this one without a quality No8.

I hope I'm proved wrong.

+1. I agree. As much as it pains me. I think SL has got this badly wrong. Still, a loss due to his bad calls will be good for his development as well.

[maestegmafia]

".....while Englands backrow were really struggling to contain Italy."

That's because when Croft came on there was only 2 of them doing the hard graft.

Not sounding too confident in the selection then? You seemed very confident earlier that England would win and win well, surely with a similar team to the one that finished playing Italy last weekend, this is not a great selection.

The three locks are all cleared to play but are all carrying injuries, you think Croft is a lazy backrow thus changing a successfully dynamic, Farrell has a dodgy hamstring, the centres were very quiet last week, the back three are taking a hell of a lot of flak for their poor defence and inability to score tries and if Cole goes off you have no back up TH of any worth.

I have seen the phrase "England are greater than the sum of their parts" banded around regularly. It is very very true. On paper England do not measure up to many top five teams but they do compete against them and they do beat them.

But as in 2011, England have started with a bang and gradually fizzled each game, it will take a big psychological boost to win the GS.

Wales in contrast started very very poorly with players recovering from injury but have improve game on game.

Going into this game Wales will be confident, it appears England are looking for that confidence.

[lostinwales]

Just seems to be a natural tendency to try and pick up on weaknesses of players who really excel in some aspects. Look at the abuse Tuilagi gets (all the 'one trick' stuff) which just seems to boil down to him not kicking.

[Scrumpy]

Croft has been rushed back, Billy V should have got the nod against Italy, Wood isn't a force at 8, yet he is a very effective 6, so play him there.

I can't see us wining this one without a quality No8.

I hope I'm proved wrong.

+1. I agree. As much as it pains me. I think SL has got this badly wrong. Still, a loss due to his bad calls will be good for his development as well.

So far this squad and coaches seem to have learnt from their mistakes (apart form selecting Ashton) which is a positive for rwc2015 if tomorrow goes pear shaped.

[nathan]

Croft has been rushed back, Billy V should have got the nod against Italy, Wood isn't a force at 8, yet he is a very effective 6, so play him there.

I can't see us wining this one without a quality No8.

I hope I'm proved wrong.

+1. I agree. As much as it pains me. I think SL has got this badly wrong. Still, a loss due to his bad calls will be good for his development as well.

But thats the thing though, this team is early in it's development. You'd be stupid not to try out players. Thing is if he chose a player and put him in a different postion - If it worked out well, SL wouldn't get the praise, If it didn't work out well, he'd be slated.

How i'd hate to be in his shoes!

[maestegmafia]

Just seems to be a natural tendency to try and pick up on weaknesses of players who really excel in some aspects. Look at the abuse Tuilagi gets (all the 'one trick' stuff) which just seems to boil down to him not kicking.

He isn't famous for passing either.

It's no different to Jamie Roberts, they both lack a creative footballing brain and rely on having someone who can read a game next to them to exploit their potential.

[nathan]

".....while Englands backrow were really struggling to contain Italy."

That's because when Croft came on there was only 2 of them doing the hard graft.

Not sounding too confident in the selection then? You seemed very confident earlier that England would win and win well, surely with a similar team to the one that finished playing Italy last weekend, this is not a great selection.

The three locks are all cleared to play but are all carrying injuries, you think Croft is a lazy backrow thus changing a successfully dynamic, Farrell has a dodgy hamstring, the centres were very quiet last week, the back three are taking a hell of a lot of flak for their poor defence and inability to score tries and if Cole goes off you have no back up TH of any worth.

I have seen the phrase "England are greater than the sum of their parts" banded around regularly. It is very very true. On paper England do not measure up to many top five teams but they do compete against them and they do beat them.

But as in 2011, England have started with a bang and gradually fizzled each game, it will take a big psychological boost to win the GS.

Wales in contrast started very very poorly with players recovering from injury but have improve game on game.

Going into this game Wales will be confident, it appears England are looking for that confidence.

maes, you do make me laugh. If those players have been deemed fit to play, they won't be carry injuries. You been stealing the English arrogance?

[nathan]

Just seems to be a natural tendency to try and pick up on weaknesses of players who really excel in some aspects. Look at the abuse Tuilagi gets (all the 'one trick' stuff) which just seems to boil down to him not kicking.

He isn't famous for passing either.

It's no different to Jamie Roberts, they both lack a creative footballing brain and rely on having someone who can read a game next to them to exploit their potential.

You have to look at the age difference though, Manu is only starting out in his carreer.

[lostinwales]

Just seems to be a natural tendency to try and pick up on weaknesses of players who really excel in some aspects. Look at the abuse Tuilagi gets (all the 'one trick' stuff) which just seems to boil down to him not kicking.

He isn't famous for passing either.

It's no different to Jamie Roberts, they both lack a creative footballing brain and rely on having someone who can read a game next to them to exploit their potential.

I have always found Roberts frustrating in that hes smart enough to try and learn more tricks and never seems to but he is definitely in this class. Tuilagi is interesting in that he is very instinctive about being in the right place at the right time. He gets a lot of interceptions and has a habit of being in the right place at the right time (see both France and NZ)

[Geordie]

Where are the ball carriers in the England pack? I mean the real hard yard makers? Ermm.....

[englandglory4ever]

The more I think about the Croft selection the more desperately sad I feel. He is clearly not up to the rigours of test rugby yet and I'm even thinking of crossing SL off my Christmas card list. I think I need a lie down.

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