The post-6-Nations Anglo Welsh bickering thread

[Ospreydragon]

First topic message reminder :

http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-union/international/frustrated-england-will-challenge-referee-calls-8541351.html


Thread renamed to match the actual debate taking place

[mikey_philVIII]

If you have such a huge amount of rugby knowledge, can you tell us why Hibbard wasn't penalised when he popped up in the scrum on what three maybe four occasions before he was hauled off in the 51st minute, or even Adam Jones for not binding properly on the first three scrums?

I counted two. And Wales were driving forward at the time before Hibbard popped up on these occasions. Youngs also did this during the game however I can't remember if he was penalised or not. Hartley does this all the time for Northampton and England and nobody has yet explained that one. Therefore I doubt RW or anyone has much insight on this occasion as well.

[100%beefy]

you know a side are spanked, beaten , humiliated, thrashed, chastened, bashed, bullied, whooped, whipped and have lost when their coaches start bleating in the press about how the nasty wefewee took their toys away!!

I think we copied it from Wales when they lost 8-9 to France at the World Cup!

but we didn't whine to the IRB did we Duty

"I think that in defeat you grope for things that are happy and its hard"
George Dubya

We didn't consider cheating.

who said anything about cheating?

[Duty281]

you know a side are spanked, beaten , humiliated, thrashed, chastened, bashed, bullied, whooped, whipped and have lost when their coaches start bleating in the press about how the nasty wefewee took their toys away!!

I think we copied it from Wales when they lost 8-9 to France at the World Cup!

but we didn't whine to the IRB did we Duty

"I think that in defeat you grope for things that are happy and its hard"
George Dubya

We didn't consider cheating.

who said anything about cheating?

Warren Gatland.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/15347253

[mikey_philVIII]

Cyril why have you not congratulated the champs for their 30 - 3 demolition of the chumps? Seems like sour grapes to me.

[Cyril]

Cyril why have you not congratulated the champs for their 30 - 3 demolition of the chumps? Seems like sour grapes to me.

Wales were excellent and deserved to win well (as they did). Congrats to Wales.

Their side show a lot of class (not shown by some of their fans on here).

[GLove39]

Nice to see Hersh up to his old tricks on the Beeb website...

302.
HERSH
13 Hours ago

Walsh - Welsh

Enough said!

[Guest]

He's been pretty decent on here though. Must be hard to act all Jekyll on one forum and Hyde on the other.

[Ospreydragon]

"“Although I don’t think Steve Walsh is the best referee in the world, I don’t think England can have too many complaints,” ­Probyn said. “The ­reality is that when Adam Jones crushed Joe Marler he crushed the entire England pack.” "

-- Jeff Probyn


Source:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/international/england/9942210/Six-Nations-2013-JPR-Williams-accuses-England-of-sour-grapes-and-tells-them-to-accept-Wales-were-just-better.html

Enough said. Similar statements about Wales' dominance were made by Moore and Woordward.

[Breadvan]

Honestly, talk about something getting out of hand. The Eng coaching staff are seeking clarification over a few issues, not asking Walsh to be investigated or dropped. Its been a real eye opener this week with the behaivour of some....some fans on here and other sites. Walesonline, facebook etc. A complete over reaction to eveything to do with saturdays game.

[Glas a du]

On both sides.

[Breadvan]

Agree Glas but I do beleive some Wales fans revel in the schadenfruede of England more than the win itself. Altho these tend to be the 6 nations bandwagoners who only watch rugby 6 weeks a year. One game doesn't make either side suddenly brilliant or crap...

[100%beefy]

https://www.606v2.com/t39057-the-official-england-to-grand-slam-glory-2013-thread

yes if you say so Duty

[Knackeredknees]

Well as most on here have no idea of the laws in the scrum and are throwing accusations and false laws around like monkeys throwing Poopie.

There is no such thing as "the hit" in the laws, so failing to take the hit is not a pen or failing, it is oneside driving early!!

If a hooker pops up it is one of two things:
1) a scrum reset same side feeding
2) a penalty to the side that pops up, not against him

If so many of the "fans" on here actually read the laws or played the game outside of school they may have a better understanding?

And as for those who are using the fact that the English managment went to the press to post Poopie, i'm sure a Tigers player could have a few things to say about Welsh people running to the press!!

[thebluesmancometh]

Well as most on here have no idea of the laws in the scrum and are throwing accusations and false laws around like monkeys throwing Poopie.

There is no such thing as "the hit" in the laws, so failing to take the hit is not a pen or failing, it is oneside driving early!!

If a hooker pops up it is one of two things:
1) a scrum reset same side feeding
2) a penalty to the side that pops up, not against him

If so many of the "fans" on here actually read the laws or played the game outside of school they may have a better understanding?

And as for those who are using the fact that the English managment went to the press to post Poopie, i'm sure a Tigers player could have a few things to say about Welsh people running to the press!!

Sorry mate have to correct you, a ref will quite easily penalise a team for not taking the hit, and although the rulebook doesn't acknowledge the hit refs are trained to ensure it is safe and reasonable, so they not only know about it they explein what they want from it to players all the time. Not taking the hit will be penalised as not scrummaging straight.

Also no teams get penalised for trying to stay down, and trying to scrummage, but teams do get penalised for popping up regularly, again under the not scrummaging straight.

I get the feeling youve been reading a rulebook or listening to a misinformed person, what the laws state and what refs are cosached are 2 different things, refs have to be far more pragmatic than use the letter of the law.

[Knackeredknees]

I have been reading up on the laws, as i cant keep playing every week at my age

Refs get coached to apply the laws.

The number of reset scrums in lower levels is maybe 4 or 5 a game, at the top level rather than reset its easier to give a pen/fk however its very rarly the right call.

Your right no teams get penalised for staying down, however if the TH bores in and pops the hooker its the hooker that highter level refs ping(easier option).

Only way to really sort it out is back to the old days
Front rows
Second rows
Back rows
Ball in(straight!!!!!!!!!!)

[Duty281]

https://www.606v2.com/t39057-the-official-england-to-grand-slam-glory-2013-thread

yes if you say so Duty

I do. If we'd beaten France and Italy comfortably, then I'd have said winning the Grand Slam was the best thing to happen to English rugby. We didn't and showed areas that needed to be improved. Beating Wales would have hid those issues. Losing will mean an improvement will happen over the next year.

[thebluesmancometh]

I have been reading up on the laws, as i cant keep playing every week at my age

Refs get coached to apply the laws.

The number of reset scrums in lower levels is maybe 4 or 5 a game, at the top level rather than reset its easier to give a pen/fk however its very rarly the right call.

Your right no teams get penalised for staying down, however if the TH bores in and pops the hooker its the hooker that highter level refs ping(easier option).

Only way to really sort it out is back to the old days
Front rows
Second rows
Back rows
Ball in(straight!!!!!!!!!!)

Refs are coached to do far more than apply the laws mate, they are essentially teachers and athletes too! They need to be able to recognise what a player is doing wrong, and immediately explain to that player how he is doing so and what you need from him for it to be legal!

Reset scrums at lower levels are far easier to explain, the lack of power from the amateur packs, the lack of hit, the lack of coaching, the lack of nous, and the lack of profesionalism in both the front rows and refs.

When Jones hits he hits with 800kg plus in one sweet motion, then it's a wrestle for arm position, shoulder position, head position, all the while the 800kg immense footwork is driving him through, body angles are excellent, and every drop of strengths used, that perfect motion meets near the exact same from the opposing side, and when the initial hit is nullified, and there is barely any adavantage forwards have to find an advantage elsewhere, cat and mouse games, leverage, focus etc... On a saturday afternoon you'll see 16 guys basically lean into each other in comparison, the first few scrums may be decently attacked but either fatigue or failure will cause one team to forfeit.

Have you ever watched a game where the first scrum one team dominates, then the opposing team just tries to hold the scrum in place to not give away penalties? Then after dominating the dominating scrum on their put in is happy to just hold the mark for the 8's use??? At pro level EVERY scrum is a chance of turnover ball, and at every scrum the mindset is 100% everything you have, which is why we get so many uneven calls, the tiniest mistake at that level puts your pack on it's bum. Forwards have to know when to drive after the hit, when to conced and drop it, and when to play the ref.

[maestegmafia]

https://www.606v2.com/t39057-the-official-england-to-grand-slam-glory-2013-thread

yes if you say so Duty

I do. If we'd beaten France and Italy comfortably, then I'd have said winning the Grand Slam was the best thing to happen to English rugby. We didn't and showed areas that needed to be improved. Beating Wales would have hid those issues. Losing will mean an improvement will happen over the next year.

Well said.

[maestegmafia]

Honestly, talk about something getting out of hand. The Eng coaching staff are seeking clarification over a few issues, not asking Walsh to be investigated or dropped.

Why would they ask for clarification if they didn't believe that the decision made by the referee was incorrect?

I haven't heard the WRU ask the IRB to confirm whether Walsh's decisions were right or wrong? Unsurprisingly all the matches England won the referee's were given "glowing reports" by Rowntree.

There is no need for any clarification. A referee's decision is final, this is not soccer, we do not question a referee's decisions in rugby. The England players didn't either.

Time to move on and for England fans to hope their can improve to challenge for the Six Nations next year.

[Biltong]

Honestly, talk about something getting out of hand. The Eng coaching staff are seeking clarification over a few issues, not asking Walsh to be investigated or dropped.

Why would they ask for clarification if they didn't believe that the decision made by the referee was incorrect?

I haven't heard the WRU ask the IRB to confirm whether Walsh's decisions were right or wrong? Unsurprisingly all the matches England won the referee's were given "glowing reports" by Rowntree.

There is no need for any clarification. A referee's decision is final, this is not soccer, we do not question a referee's decisions in rugby. The England players didn't either.

Time to move on and for England fans to hope their can improve to challenge for the Six Nations next year.

clarification over the interpretation of the law Maes.

[gregortree]

Honestly, talk about something getting out of hand. The Eng coaching staff are seeking clarification over a few issues, not asking Walsh to be investigated or dropped.

Why would they ask for clarification if they didn't believe that the decision made by the referee was incorrect?

I haven't heard the WRU ask the IRB to confirm whether Walsh's decisions were right or wrong? Unsurprisingly all the matches England won the referee's were given "glowing reports" by Rowntree.

There is no need for any clarification. A referee's decision is final, this is not soccer, we do not question a referee's decisions in rugby. The England players didn't either.

Time to move on and for England fans to hope their can improve to challenge for the Six Nations next year.

Maesteg
It is clear: to learn, to improve, to not repeat mistakes. The match decisions were final, Wales won well, nobody is trying to question the result.
If Rowntree is unclear about the scrum penalties in paticular, and needs clarification, by all means take a pop at his coaching abilities if you wish..
But SL correctly wants to look at every aspect of England's performance. And he means EVERY aspect.
That unusual number of scrum penatlties requires detailed understanding if England are to improve before the next strong pack they meet, quite possibly Argentina's if ARG put out their best.
Why brush this key area under the carpet and forget all about it ?

[Pete C (Kiwireddevil)]

Just a heads up all, I've removed a whole lot of tedious drivel & unpleasantries posted in this thread last night. If anyone's curious as to the contents it can be broadly summarised thus:

"My Dad's bigger than your Dad"
"Yeah but your Dad's a **** and he's not that big"
"Get lost you ****"
"Why you ****"
...

[bluestonevedder]

Just a heads up all, I've removed a whole lot of tedious drivel & unpleasantries posted in this thread last night. If anyone's curious as to the contents it can be broadly summarised thus:

"My Dad's bigger than your Dad"
"Yeah but your Dad's a **** and he's not that big"
"Get lost you ****"
"Why you ****"
...

Bit too much respect their Kiwi; there's nothing quite that eloquent written on this thread!

[maestegmafia]

Honestly, talk about something getting out of hand. The Eng coaching staff are seeking clarification over a few issues, not asking Walsh to be investigated or dropped.

Why would they ask for clarification if they didn't believe that the decision made by the referee was incorrect?

I haven't heard the WRU ask the IRB to confirm whether Walsh's decisions were right or wrong? Unsurprisingly all the matches England won the referee's were given "glowing reports" by Rowntree.

There is no need for any clarification. A referee's decision is final, this is not soccer, we do not question a referee's decisions in rugby. The England players didn't either.

Time to move on and for England fans to hope their can improve to challenge for the Six Nations next year.

clarification over the interpretation of the law Maes.

Which means questioning the referees application/interpretation. It is questioning the situations were influenced by Walsh's decisions that did not favour England.

In particular, Lancaster questioned the build-up to Alex Cuthbert's first try.

"There was a turnover at the breakdown, which we still need clarification on," the Lancaster said. "Whatever happened in that breakdown, it was disappointing to lose composure and let the game slip away."

The incident Lancaster referred to came when Wales replacement hooker Ken Owens, stole the ball from Tom Wood passed to Phillips that led to Cuthbert's first of the two tries.

Lancaster is right to question that as a pivotal point in the game, Wales cruised ahead after that point. But the fault was with Tom Wood not protecting the ball, with England being reluctant to commit players to the breakdown despite that being constantly exploited by Wales, with the England defence not tackling their men and snuffing out an attack, with Mike Brown not being able to live with Cuthbert on the wing, and not with Steve Walsh.

What the referee decided and did was all very clear he addressed all questions asked by players very clearly and the players had no indifference to him throughout the game. You can see that watching the game, no one looks hard done by by a decision and if they do look despondent he clears the matter up..

I listened to the referee radio all through the match, I am very confident Rowntree and Lancaster have a copy of what was said and when, to the players too. Rowntree and Lancaster would have all been listening to it throughout the game.

Rowntree and Lancaster are asking the IRB to clarify for them whether they think Steve Walsh made mistakes that handed the game to Wales.

As I said previously, England give "glowing reports" on games england win and needs "clarification" on referees when England lose.


I have not been a fan of Walsh for the majority of his career but I must admit in the last few years he really has improved drastically. Mainly because he has an empathy with the game and a good line of communication with the players.

[maestegmafia]

Maesteg
It is clear: to learn, to improve, to not repeat mistakes. The match decisions were final, Wales won well, nobody is trying to question the result.
If Rowntree is unclear about the scrum penalties in paticular, and needs clarification, by all means take a pop at his coaching abilities if you wish..
But SL correctly wants to look at every aspect of England's performance. And he means EVERY aspect.
That unusual number of scrum penatlties requires detailed understanding if England are to improve before the next strong pack they meet, quite possibly Argentina's if ARG put out their best.
Why brush this key area under the carpet and forget all about it ?

Greg,

Your point is well understood. I have kind of replied to your post in the one I just replied to Biltong with.

Englands scrum struggled in patches throughout the Six Nations, they have leaked more penalties at scrum time than anywhere else in the game until the last match, particularly Dan cole who conceded more penalties than any other England play up until the Wales game.

Corbisiero is a huge absentee. Hartley is way off his best form, Tom Youngs inexperienced. Wales have the most experienced front row and reserve front row in the competition. England were always going to lose out in the scrums.

[gregortree]

Maes,
can't disagree with any of that.
And I said it before, but again, big congrats to Wales.
I hope England will fix their issues, and give you a good game at Twickenham next time. Until then the players can (hopefully) join up and enjoy a successful Lions tour together.

[Scrumpy]

This whole thing is so OTT it beggars believe, Wales won and won well not just at the scrum but everywhere, all SL and Rowntree have asked for is clarification on a view things, sometimes making mistakes is the only way humans can learn Walsh being a SH Ref may very well interpret the rules differently and England want to find out what they did wrong, as they didn’t have a major problem before this game.

Nothing wrong in doing that, although it should have been done behind closed doors (not sure if this was announced to the press or not?) but as we learnt with the 2011 Grand Slam t-shirt ad some people are very bitter towards England and things get leaked to the press when they shouldn't.

[maestegmafia]

This whole thing is so OTT it beggars believe, Wales won and won well not just at the scrum but everywhere, all SL and Rowntree have asked for is clarification on a view things, sometimes making mistakes is the only way humans can learn Walsh being a SH Ref may very well interpret the rules differently and England want to find out what they did wrong, as they didn’t have a major problem before this game.

Nothing wrong in doing that, although it should have been done behind closed doors (not sure if this was announced to the press or not?) but as we learnt with the 2011 Grand Slam t-shirt ad some people are very bitter towards England and things get leaked to the press when they shouldn't.

VictorU3,

Most of the "bitterness" seems to come from the English press not non Englishmen.

The 2011 Nike leaked "when we win the Grand Slam in Dublin" email and Rowntree and Lancaster publicly pin pointing a referee's decisions in this years finale were both stories in The Telegraph not the Western Mail...

[maestegmafia]

Maes,
can't disagree with any of that.
And I said it before, but again, big congrats to Wales.
I hope England will fix their issues, and give you a good game at Twickenham next time. Until then the players can (hopefully) join up and enjoy a successful Lions tour together.

Cheers Greg...

It will be interesting to see how England and Wales grow and progress, hopefully not regress after this year.

Both teams are at a similar age, I think Wales are about 26 england 25 depending on who's in or out. Wales dwarf England with the amount of Caps our under 25 players have and our experienced players are nearer a century than a half.

Next match up will again be very interesting, see how the two sides develop over each 12 months.

[A World Cup and 3 Finals]

Surely all rugby fans from any country want to see an improvement in refereeing. If there is a biased loose canon among the ranks of referees, outing him would be of benefit to the game.
Steve Walsh put in a sorrowful performance that defies belief to all but the most one-eyed spectator. He should be banned from the game.

Now on a completely different subject - Wales played a good game last Saturday, well played

[lostinwales]

As a point of interest - what was Walsh actually saying to Youngs/ the English front row for that first scrum after Vunipola came on? The one that looked like it was always going to end up as a penalty to Wales as he kept on seeming to have a go at Young's position?

[maestegmafia]

Surely all rugby fans from any country want to see an improvement in refereeing. If there is a biased loose canon among the ranks of referees, outing him would be of benefit to the game.
Steve Walsh put in a sorrowful performance that defies belief to all but the most one-eyed spectator. He should be banned from the game.

Now on a completely different subject - Wales played a good game last Saturday, well played

Are you honestly accusing other people of being "one-eyed".....?

[fa0019]

maestegmafia

Isn't the Telegraph a British newspaper rather than an English one?

[Glas a du]

maestegmafia

Isn't the Telegraph a British newspaper rather than an English one?

Oh the naïveté of the outsider...

[maestegmafia]

maestegmafia

Isn't the Telegraph a British newspaper rather than an English one?

Not really no.

[fa0019]

Is Stephen Jones still one of the "English Press" leading rugby journalists?

[Glas a du]

You're on a dangerous road here

Jones is Welsh. Welsh journalists are allowed to report on Rugby, singing and leeks, see?

[mystiroakey]

Its a Britsh paper thats market is primarily english, due to a higher population.

Thats it, and why many celts have issues with the english because of it.

Its just business lads.. Thats it

[Glas a du]

Precisely. We know it and we moan about it

[RubyGuby]

I think in the future it will only be fair if England are able to field a complete team of Southern Hemisphere players whilst being reffed by an englishman. This should ensure fairness and consistency across the board. In addition, I am of the opinion that Wales should only be allowed to play 2 Joneses, 2 Williams's and 2 Evan's at any 1 time. Anything more than this is clearly confusing the opposition and gives an unfair advantage to Wales. During training last week SL clearly stated to a number of his players, "you pick up Jones", leaving the players dazzled and confused, Youngs was heard saying "why does SL want me to mark Adam" whilst Ashton was seen man marking Ryan, of course he never quite made any physical contact. We all need a level playing field to make these games more interesting. Huzzzah!

[RubyGuby]

Its a Britsh paper thats market is primarily english, due to a higher population.

Thats it, and why many celts have issues with the english because of it.

Its just business lads.. Thats it

Oakey - the paper does not address the english - The paper addresses and is designed for the British middle and upper classes irrespective of which home country they are from. Naturally the majority of these will be english due to volume but it is certainly not an english paper per se'; it is written for the middle and upper classes and for those with right wing leanings.

[Glas a du]

On the plus side, now something bad has happened to England in the scrums, something might be done to sort them out

[Scrumpy]

Mae I did mean some people and wasn't singling out anyone, don't be so paranoid fella.

[Breadvan]

Aye, yet the Western hate mail had the Rowntree story on its front page. Now that paper does have an anglophobic agenda imo. Remember the 2 day, 2 page Dick best campaign in 2005 when he said the GS was built on sand?

[gregortree]

Which is why we call it the 'Torygraph'

[Glas a du]

Aye, yet the Western hate mail had the Rowntree story on its front page. Now that paper does have an anglophobic agenda imo. Remember the 2 day, 2 page Dick best campaign in 2005 when he said the GS was built on sand?

No, it's Cardiffillic - it hates the rest of Wales as much as it hates England.

[maestegmafia]

Its a Britsh paper thats market is primarily english, due to a higher population.

Thats it, and why many celts have issues with the english because of it.

Its just business lads.. Thats it

Oakey - the paper does not address the english - The paper addresses and is designed for the British middle and upper classes irrespective of which home country they are from. Naturally the majority of these will be english due to volume but it is certainly not an english paper per se'; it is written for the middle and upper classes and for those with right wing leanings.

Or lefties that like free reading on line...! I balance it out with some middle of the road Guardian too...! Hard to find outlets for the Socialist Worker or Morning Star in modern Britain.

[RubyGuby]

Maesteg - I delivered 160 papers every morning as a kid in Glynneath and there was always 1 guy in Avon St who had the Morning Star - I thought he was religous or something

[maestegmafia]

Mae I did mean some people and wasn't singling out anyone, don't be so paranoid fella.

Not paranoid at all.

I just showed you that you are wrong to accuse people in general who you think are criticising England Rugby when they are just referencing what the English press release as a story about their nations own rugby team.

That is the same press that broke the stories on Mike Tindalls stag do, Ferry Jumping etc etc etc, all the bad press on English rugby comes from the English media.

Poking blame elsewhere at non-English rugby supporters is incorrect, petty and disingenuous.

[gregortree]

My Dagenham grandparents took the Morning Star - religiously.

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