The post-6-Nations Anglo Welsh bickering thread

[Ospreydragon]

First topic message reminder :

http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-union/international/frustrated-england-will-challenge-referee-calls-8541351.html


Thread renamed to match the actual debate taking place

[Glas a du]

In amazed how right wing the Western Fail is.

[maestegmafia]

Maesteg - I delivered 160 papers every morning as a kid in Glynneath and there was always 1 guy in Avon St who had the Morning Star - I thought he was religous or something

There are and always were plenty around. Nothing wrong with Socialism many of my closest friends through University and work were lifelong socialists.

[Glas a du]

Shame it was wiped out in this country in 1997.

[Scrumpy]

Mae I did mean some people and wasn't singling out anyone, don't be so paranoid fella.

Not paranoid at all.

I just showed you that you are wrong to accuse people in general who you think are criticising England Rugby when they are just referencing what the English press release as a story about their nations own rugby team.

That is the same press that broke the stories on Mike Tindalls stag do, Ferry Jumping etc etc etc, all the bad press on English rugby comes from the English media.

Poking blame elsewhere at non-English rugby supporters is incorrect, petty and disingenuous.

Are the Press not people? hence some people.

Have you still got a sore head?

[gregortree]

So back to OP, in summary: challenging SW refereeing is a Tory media plot to undermine socialism's achievements in the 'West' country ? Love the way we got here. BTW: anyone seen the Morning Star's opinion ?

[maestegmafia]

So back to OP, in summary: challenging SW refereeing is a Tory media plot to undermine socialism's achievements in the 'West' country ? Love the way we got here. BTW: anyone seen the Morning Star's opinion ?

Wales 30-3 England: Alex Cuthbert scores twice as Welsh hammer Stuart Lancaster's men into submission

http://www.morningstaronline.co.uk/news/content/view/full/130673

[Glas a du]

[Glas a du]

With the score 9-3 at half-time, England were still in the game, but they had showed signs of weakness in the scrum and all the penalty awards seemed to be going the Welsh way.

These lefties don't mince their words do they?

[maestegmafia]

With the score 9-3 at half-time, England were still in the game, but they had showed signs of weakness in the scrum and all the penalty awards seemed to be going the Welsh way.

These lefties don't mince their words do they?

No Capitalist frivolity...!

[gregortree]

So back to OP, in summary: challenging SW refereeing is a Tory media plot to undermine socialism's achievements in the 'West' country ? Love the way we got here. BTW: anyone seen the Morning Star's opinion ?

Wales 30-3 England: Alex Cuthbert scores twice as Welsh hammer Stuart Lancaster's men into submission

http://www.morningstaronline.co.uk/news/content/view/full/130673

Nice balanced report. Reporter Roger Jones - bit of a clue in the name I suspect. Certainly doesn't like the English.

[RubyGuby]

It was a victory for socialism as the collective unity of the working classes combined to overwhelm their cosmopolitan cousins - Throughout the game, little democracy was shown as the welsh forwards dominated and ridiculed their english counterparts in a manner that has not been seen since the Thatcher waving police waved their overtime pay packets to the miners. The welsh priest was heard to shout "divine retribution" from the terraces whilst Scargill looked on bemused not knowling whether to laugh or cry as he sat in the complimentary seats being wined and dined in style -

[gregortree]

Scargill style

[Glas a du]

Capitalist running dogs of the English pack tamed by the horny handed sons of toil making up the Welsh pack...

[Hood83]

It's just the arrogance you expect from them, the game is there for all to see, no one apart from the English would agree with this total crap. We smashed them and long may it happen. I do expect it to continue, they are nothing special and have been hyped up to the max and are falling from grace.

Wow, nothing like tarring everyone with the same brush eh rainbow! I presume you mean 'no one apart from the English coaching team' or perhaps you missed the numerous English posters congratulating you on giving us a complete shellacking?

Personally I'm very disappointed this has come to light. But I think it's an inevitable result of our beloved media desperately seeking a headline. If not it slightly suggests the whole 'attitude change' from SL isn't quite what he would have us believe.

[gregortree]

Glas, Don't ! you be having the Chinese take up rugby to make statement of the superiority of their socialist beliefs. Then we'll all be in serious trouble back home.

[maestegmafia]

So back to OP, in summary: challenging SW refereeing is a Tory media plot to undermine socialism's achievements in the 'West' country ? Love the way we got here. BTW: anyone seen the Morning Star's opinion ?

Wales 30-3 England: Alex Cuthbert scores twice as Welsh hammer Stuart Lancaster's men into submission

http://www.morningstaronline.co.uk/news/content/view/full/130673

Nice balanced report. Reporter Roger Jones - bit of a clue in the name I suspect. Certainly doesn't like the English. CAPITALISTS

A suggestion for alteration amended above...

[gregortree]

Quite a few northern socialist sons of toil in the English squad & management.
Where is Roger Jones' sense of British solidarity ?

[Hood83]

Capitalist running dogs of the English pack tamed by the horny handed sons of toil making up the Welsh pack...

That's actually quite brilliant, if a little, Butler-esque

[Glas a du]

Serving Champers from the boot of an Evoque in HQ.

[maestegmafia]

Capitalist running dogs of the English pack tamed by the horny handed sons of toil making up the Welsh pack...

That's actually quite brilliant, if a little, Butler-esque

Lovely work "Glas the pen"

[dummy_half]

Capitalist running dogs of the English pack tamed by the horny handed sons of toil making up the Welsh pack...

Not sure most of our pack know that much about running...

Or Capitalism come to that.

Oh, and could your 'horny handed sons of toil' actually do a bit of work and dig up and re-lay the effin pitch at the MS?

[LordDowlais]

Why hasn't anybody mentioned dai caps and wellies, their as Welsh as horny handed sons of toil and lava bread.

[thebluesmancometh]

Capitalist running dogs of the English pack tamed by the horny handed sons of toil making up the Welsh pack...

Not sure most of our pack know that much about running...

Or Capitalism come to that.

Oh, and could your 'horny handed sons of toilsoil' actually do a bit of work and dig up and re-lay the effin pitch at the MS?

Better

[gregortree]

He's back ! although we missed his reportage after the AB game.
But he's not bitter or anything:
thegreyghost
13 Minutes ago
England's humiliation is complete.
The hiding they took on the field was so devastating that it has destabilised the apparently calm, grounded and ego-free "New England" camp and exposed it for yet another incarnation of the arrogant, self-aggrandising, tub thumping imperialistic England we all know so well.

The only way is down from here as the camp will fracture from the inside again.(Comment number 2118)
(Ed: sorry is this against the house rules ?)

[mikey_philVIII]

[mystiroakey]

oh dear.. what a sad muppet. Clearly still gutted about the loss end of last year

[Scarpia]

As a point of interest - what was Walsh actually saying to Youngs/ the English front row for that first scrum after Vunipola came on?

"I hope your reversing lights are working"

[maestegmafia]

Capitalist running dogs of the English pack tamed by the horny handed sons of toil making up the Welsh pack...

Not sure most of our pack know that much about running...

Or Capitalism come to that.

Oh, and could your 'horny handed sons of toil' actually do a bit of work and dig up and re-lay the effin pitch at the MS?

Thought the pitch held up as good as any this year.

The Stade de France was the worst by a country mile.

[maestegmafia]

As a point of interest - what was Walsh actually saying to Youngs/ the English front row for that first scrum after Vunipola came on?

"I hope your reversing lights are working"

I was listening to the referee radio at the stadium and from memory most of the early scrums Walsh was accusing Tom Youngs of losing his bind and splitting from Either prop.

Youngs didn't disagree or argue with the referee. He just said he would try and keep his bind.

Considering he has only been a specialist hooker for a short while, previously converted from the centre it was ambitious to think that he wouldn't have problems with a front row as experienced and highly regarded as Jenkins, Hibbard and Jones.

Youngs is a fantastic prospect for the future and will go a long way. But you have think he will have had a lesson learned this weekend.

[dummy_half]

Maes

I'll admit the pitch wasn't as bad as sometimes, but the palletised system is never going to make for a great surface. The new pitch at Twickers stood up well and yes the pitch in Paris was a disgrace.

As for your comment re Youngs (T), I wonder if it's a bit of the 'Mears' problem, in that he is much shorter than the props (5' 9" compared with 6' 2 or so), so there's an imbalance that a good opposing tighthead can exploit, splitting him from his loosehead. Not as extreme as with Mears as Youngs is a bit taller and a lot more powerful, but still something to work on

[Nathan's Hind]

I always get a bit compunctuous when I hear that England have been discombobulated. No doubt their pericombobulation came as a result of their enthusiastic contrafribularities, eh readers?

[Glas a du]

More Brian...

[majesticimperialman]

Cannot believe that this thread is still going on to be honest. England lost and Wales won end of.

[Biltong]

Slow news week.

[GloriousEmpire]

Anyone else think England got away with quite a lot in the game?

[Biltong]

Yeah, they should never have had that kick at goal.

[gregortree]

Walsh was playing to NIL England, but looks like he slipped up. The WRU should discipline him for not fully following their ref game plan.

[Biltong]

Agree I think he lost focus there for a while.

Won't happen nex time, though.

[gregortree]

Biltong, yes because next time they'll drop Walsh, but not sure they can find a replacement with his unique combination talents.

[Big]

Biltong, yes because next time they'll drop Walsh, but not sure they can find a replacement with his unique combination talents.

The problem is that they won't drop him. To make it worse the panel of elite refs is not a big one and I'd imagine the people on it are a fairly tight knit bunch - so in all likelihood the England management have quite possibly peed off not just Walsh, but most of the people that are going to be reffing their games. Not a smart move.

A number of coaches of various sides have had a grumble at some point, but it's no good if you just have a whinge whenever the other team gets the rub of the green. It would have a lot more impact if they did it collectively at a quiet point in the season when they've had a chance to think it through and have actually come up with a plan to improve the system.

[Biltong]

Biltong, yes because next time they'll drop Walsh, but not sure they can find a replacement with his unique combination talents.

The problem is that they won't drop him. To make it worse the panel of elite refs is not a big one and I'd imagine the people on it are a fairly tight knit bunch - so in all likelihood the England management have quite possibly peed off not just Walsh, but most of the people that are going to be reffing their games. Not a smart move.

A number of coaches of various sides have had a grumble at some point, but it's no good if you just have a whinge whenever the other team gets the rub of the green. It would have a lot more impact if they did it collectively at a quiet point in the season when they've had a chance to think it through and have actually come up with a plan to improve the system.

In all seriousness I don't think Walsh is a bad referee, he just doesn't seem to like the English much. It would be prudent for the IRB to look at isolated matches and NOT let referees officate certain team.

It goes to fairness

[mystiroakey]

the problem is sometimes refs can over compensate to much.

When they are faced up with the same two teams again- The ref can go the other way!!

Refs are humans - with complex minds. Humans lose logic under pressure.

[Biltong]

the problem is sometimes refs can over compensate to much.

When they are faced up with the same two teams again- The ref can go the other way!!

Refs are humans - with complex minds. Humans lose logic under pressure.

Well an example of that was Bryce Lawrence in the RWC.

[Big]

In all seriousness I don't think Walsh is a bad referee, he just doesn't seem to like the English much. It would be prudent for the IRB to look at isolated matches and NOT let referees officate certain team.

It goes to fairness

I've said all along that I think he has been vastly better since his ban. I remember thinking the first time we had him after his return that if anything we got the rub of the green - home teams normally do. Should have been dropped from the elite panel far sooner than he was before the NZ union dropped him though, as he had major issues before sorting out his drinking.

My main gripe is that Lancaster and co are happy to complain about Walsh, but insist that they have got everything right. They are seemingly refusing to review their own decisions to stick with players that are out of form, select a lightweight second and back row (which was one of the big problems, look at first scrum penalty - England win the hit but start going backwards because there's not enough power in the engine room), lack of a playmaker in the midfield and generally putting players out of position. There was so much in their control that they could have done, that it stinks of buck passing to shift the blame onto one of the few things that are outside their control. I am now firmly in the anti-Lancaster and his PR bandwagon camp.

[Higher_Ground]

Interesting piece by Kingsley Jones on Scrum V last night talking about the penlaties/free kicks at the scrum.
The England front row managed to wind Walsh up before a ball had even been fed into the first scrum. Late put-in by Youngs when he had ample opportunity to do so, Repeatedly having to tell the English players not to go head on head, and Ben Young with his head down chuntering at the ref, didn't exactly do them any favours.
He also said that a few of the calls were 50/50, but that the ref is always going to reward the scrum going forward, and that's the bottom line.

People are talking about Walsh wanting to put on a big show of himself, but I thought he was very reserved, didn't give the big long lectures like some of the 'better' refs do, and just got on with it.
If there were no scrums in that match, Wales still would have won, and that's another bottom line.
When Adam Jones is conning refs in 8 weeks time, hopefully all in white will be cheering!

[gregortree]

Big
Lancs has said they will be reviewing EVERYTHING and the scrum penalties were a significant part of England's failure. I can see why England want to dissect those. Yes we lacked grunt at no 8, that is an obvious part of the issue, and maybe 2nd row grunt too. And the front row were naive in understanding / playing the ref, and light & green vs their opposites, that has to be part of it. Lancs is not an 'excuses' guy he is a 'learning' guy and he wants ALL the data to help England improve. I don't buy it that he is complaining. England might be marking Walsh's card, but that could backfire too. It should have been handled more privately & diplomatically, but some hack quickly dug up the gore and blew it up.

[nathan]

In all seriousness I don't think Walsh is a bad referee, he just doesn't seem to like the English much. It would be prudent for the IRB to look at isolated matches and NOT let referees officate certain team.

It goes to fairness

I've said all along that I think he has been vastly better since his ban. I remember thinking the first time we had him after his return that if anything we got the rub of the green - home teams normally do. Should have been dropped from the elite panel far sooner than he was before the NZ union dropped him though, as he had major issues before sorting out his drinking.

My main gripe is that Lancaster and co are happy to complain about Walsh, but insist that they have got everything right. They are seemingly refusing to review their own decisions to stick with players that are out of form, select a lightweight second and back row (which was one of the big problems, look at first scrum penalty - England win the hit but start going backwards because there's not enough power in the engine room), lack of a playmaker in the midfield and generally putting players out of position. There was so much in their control that they could have done, that it stinks of buck passing to shift the blame onto one of the few things that are outside their control. I am now firmly in the anti-Lancaster and his PR bandwagon camp.

Where have they insisted they got everything right?

[Higher_Ground]

To be fair Nathan, if they failed to make any changes to something, they must have thought that they were getting it right.

[Triangulation]

England will review their own selections and playing style, preparation coming into the match. Everything. Lancaster has said as much.

Of course as Rowntree said you cant learn lessons from confusing decision making by refs because you are not sure how to improve.

Completely fair enough.

Probably should not have made public comment but i suspect that the point of doing that is to try to prevent IRB again making as a crass a decision as to appoint Walsh to ref England matches with the well documented history.

Perception of bias is very important.

[Big]

Where have they insisted they got everything right?

Granted that was probably an unfair comment on my part. However, as responded by Higher_Ground I'd go with the consistently making certain selections and tactical decisions as evidence that they back them as correct. It shouldn't take a defeat to make them look at what is and isn't working and react accordingly, and I'll believe they've done that when we see the results on the pitch.

Lancaster has now had 17 of the 40ish games that come between his taking over and the start of RWC2015 preparations. I.e. we are nearly half-way there, yet I'm struggling to see any progress - let alone evidence that we are/will be one of the favourites to win the thing. I'd be delighted if the team proved me wrong, but right now my confidence is not high.

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