Scrumhalf choices for the Lions tour to Australia

Six nations is done. We are a year on since I last held one of these polls and the long term aim was to compare what we selected a year out, a month out and the final squad.

You can pick one player only as your first choice.

I think I have grabbed most of the names in the hat, though my apologies if anyone you consider worthy has been forgotten, if you ask nicely then I am sure one of our excellent moderators might take the time to be kind enough to offer their much valued assistance.

The players included either showed in the Six Nations squads or have been regularly talked of as prospects on the various threads on here.

Looseheads - https://www.606v2.com/t42452-loosehead-choices-for-the-lions-tour-to-australia

Hookers - https://www.606v2.com/t42471-hooker-choices-for-the-lions-tour-to-australia

Tightheads - https://www.606v2.com/t42486-tighthead-choices-for-the-lions-tour-to-australia

Lock No. 4 - https://www.606v2.com/t42501-number-4-lock-choices-for-the-lions-tour-to-australia#1956467

Lock no. 5 - https://www.606v2.com/t42502-number-5-lock-choices-for-the-lions-tour-to-australia

Blindside Flanker - https://www.606v2.com/t42514-blindside-flanker-choices-for-the-lions-tour-to-australia

Openside Flanker - https://www.606v2.com/t42515-ospenside-flanker-choices-for-the-lions-tour-to-australia#1956975

Number 8 - https://www.606v2.com/t42518-number-eight-choices-for-the-lions-tour-to-australia#1958144

Flyhalf - https://www.606v2.com/t42539-flyhalf-choices-for-the-lions-tour-to-australia#1958609

I imagine this will be a close race between Youngs and Phillips.

Could be a three horse race then..! Greig Laidlaw has plenty of supporters...!

Danny care was in there too but he didn't have a good six nations and is looking poor for Quins.

I think it could be Phillips but if he's out of form I think they would go for Phillips instead.

t1000advancedprototype wrote:I think it could be Phillips but if he's out of form I think they would go for Phillips instead.

I see your point but I disagree. If one of the other scrumhalfs selected shows better form they will drop Phillips. Luckily for all of us Phillips seems to be in sparkling form at the moment.

The right players are peaking at the right time.

maestegmafia wrote:

t1000advancedprototype wrote:I think it could be Phillips but if he's out of form I think they would go for Phillips instead.

I see your point but I disagree. If one of the other scrumhalfs selected shows better form they will drop Phillips. Luckily for all of us Phillips seems to be in sparkling form at the moment.

The right players are peaking at the right time.

Phillips might be playing 12 anyway, or 7 if the play Tipuric at 10.

You never know. As shane said the other week we are lucky to have two players in Wales and the possible Lions selection that are versatile within the game. That they can jump in to a number of rolls they might find themselves in and perform well.

Care looked poor for us against Sarries. Looked back on form against Gloucester, let's see if how Murray and Care go against each other next week

Agreed Chequered - Care looked very ordinary.

The interesting thing about Murray is that he bucked the usual trend and actually improved consistently throughout the 6N where a lot of colleagues in his international team actually regressed a little.

George Carlin wrote:Agreed Chequered - Care looked very ordinary.

The interesting thing about Murray is that he bucked the usual trend and actually improved consistently throughout the 6N where a lot of colleagues in his international team actually regressed a little.

Phillips too improved game on game like Murray, yet again proved he has that big match temperament that he has showed in two Grandslams and the RWC. I thought a lot of Care and Youngs at the start but by the end of the tournament I didn't really rate either that much, by the Italy game Care was abysmal and Youngs non present.

By the end of the Six nations i saw more positives in Laidlaw than I thought I would prior to the start.

My selections would be Phillips and Laidlaw, but it will be a toss up between Murray and Youngs for the last spot.

There should have been an anyone but Phillips choice. I would be happy with any of the other nations scrummys or even another welsh scrum half. Just not Phillips please

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:There should have been an anyone but Phillips choice. I would be happy with any of the other nations scrummys or even another welsh scrum half. Just not Phillips please

Why...?

He seems to be the form scrumhalf yet again.

Still got AP/RABO finals and the HEC to influence choices a little, guys

ChequeredJersey wrote:Still got AP/RABO finals and the HEC to influence choices a little, guys

Yes there is plenty of tough competition.

THat third scrumhalf position is surely one of the undecided seats on the plane.

maestegmafia wrote:

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:There should have been an anyone but Phillips choice. I would be happy with any of the other nations scrummys or even another welsh scrum half. Just not Phillips please

Why...?

He seems to be the form scrumhalf yet again.

he is a great rugby player. He is big, strong, fast and tackles well. However he has the poorest scrum half skill set, his delivery is slow, he skips like a gazelle before making his pass, takes too much on himself and gets buried in rucks etc etc etc.

I'm not going to get embroiled in this topic again. He is a great player but he would be better suited at centre or number 8 rather than a scrum half.

imagine how devastating that welsh backline would be if they could get scrum half service of the calibre of Parra or Genia.

Gatland seems to like him though so I suspect this will be the 7th 8th and 9th times Genia will have the chance to expose Phillips for what he is; a loose forward who thinks he is a 9.

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:There should have been an anyone but Phillips choice. I would be happy with any of the other nations scrummys or even another welsh scrum half. Just not Phillips please

Why...?

He seems to be the form scrumhalf yet again.

he is a great rugby player. He is big, strong, fast and tackles well. However he has the poorest scrum half skill set, his delivery is slow, he skips like a gazelle before making his pass, takes too much on himself and gets buried in rucks etc etc etc.

I'm not going to get embroiled in this topic again. He is a great player but he would be better suited at centre or number 8 rather than a scrum half.

imagine how devastating that welsh backline would be if they could get scrum half service of the calibre of Parra or Genia.

Gatland seems to like him though so I suspect this will be the 7th 8th and 9th times Genia will have the chance to expose Phillips for what he is; a loose forward who thinks he is a 9.

I don't think Genia has had the better of Phillips that often mate. Genia wasn't playing in most recent tests vs Wales. The june series they played each other and came out pretty even, Genia upper hand in the first test, Phillips definitely in the third, but in all other tests one or the other was injured or unavailable.

Maest, Wales will make up the bulk of the squad, and they should. After a stuttering start against Ireland they have been really good in the 6N. I do however think we have better options than Phillips for scrum half. I make no secret about the fact I don't rate him at 9.

he spends too much time looking for an impressive Carry, tackle or other things and not enough time bollocking his forwards and marshalling the game.

Morgan Parra is IMO the best scrum half in the world and is the model player for that position. He passes sublimely, controls every facet of the game and has a keen eye for where, when and how to attack the line. The Clermont pack are such a formidable unit because of him.

Phillips looks too interested in being involved in the mud wrestling and trench warfare for my liking. The general shouldn't be scrapping in the trenches, he should be bossing his grunts and keeping his backs on the front foot.

i just don't rate him maes... Sorry.

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:Maest, Wales will make up the bulk of the squad, and they should. After a stuttering start against Ireland they have been really good in the 6N. I do however think we have better options than Phillips for scrum half. I make no secret about the fact I don't rate him at 9.

he spends too much time looking for an impressive Carry, tackle or other things and not enough time bollocking his forwards and marshalling the game.

Morgan Parra is IMO the best scrum half in the world and is the model player for that position. He passes sublimely, controls every facet of the game and has a keen eye for where, when and how to attack the line. The Clermont pack are such a formidable unit because of him.

Phillips looks too interested in being involved in the mud wrestling and trench warfare for my liking. The general shouldn't be scrapping in the trenches, he should be bossing his grunts and keeping his backs on the front foot.

i just don't rate him maes... Sorry.

Thats alright mate, I don't think any less of you for it...! ha ha ha...

I certainly agree with you on Parra, sublime player, all round skills, great tactical brain and a wonderful empathy for the situation which I fear some halfbacks lack.

Closest thing on our Lions books to Parra is your man Laidlaw, who continued to impress everyone throughout the tournament game on game.

Thing is we have there two likely scrumhalf candidates, both generals of a different type, and our leading light at flyhalf is Sexton, who takes the strain for Leinster and Ireland. Where as Phillips for Wales and Laidlaw for Scotland are far more willing to handle decisions than leave it to their flyhalf.

Can the Lions live with that dynamic in the Halfbacks?

Maybe if the Scrumhalf were Phillips or Laidlaw, maybe a better choice of flyhalf would be a timid thinker like Biggar...?

Phillips for me would have his place. The one thing I do like the fact that he brings something different. Coming on from the bench, or bringing someone like Youngs or Laidlaw on could shake it up.

I would personally have Youngs or Laidlaw on to begin with and see if Phillips physicality can punch some holes when the game starts to break up in the last quarter.

i can be harsh on Phillips. If he were to tighten up his passing and play the more traditional scrum half role and still retain his powerful abrasive style of running he would be one of Wales best ever scrum half's, and you have produced some great players.

Phillips frustrates me more than anything else. He could be brilliant.

I don't know what Gatland has in mind for a halfback partnership. I'm assuming he'll experiment with combinations in the 1st few games.

I think Ben Youngs should be the lions scrum half. But having said that he does have a right mare now and again.

Phillips though does have a big following of surporters from a lott gf fans. Although if Phillips is on the back foot, scrum going backward he can be liability, trying to do things that dont all come off.

Danny Care as also blown hot and cold this season, and Craig Laidlaw as been doing all right in Scotland.

So for me Ben Youngs to start with??? one of the other three on the bench.

majesticimperialman wrote:I think Ben Youngs should be the lions scrum half. But having said that he does have a right mare now and again.

Phillips though does have a big following of surporters from a lott gf fans. Although if Phillips is on the back foot, scrum going backward he can be liability, trying to do things that dont all come off.

Danny Care as also blown hot and cold this season, and Craig Laidlaw as been doing all right in Scotland.

So for me Ben Youngs to start with??? one of the other three on the bench.

Craig Laidlaw

Genuine question Madge. When have you seen Phillips play on the back foot from a scrum?

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:Phillips for me would have his place. The one thing I do like the fact that he brings something different. Coming on from the bench, or bringing someone like Youngs or Laidlaw on could shake it up.

I would personally have Youngs or Laidlaw on to begin with and see if Phillips physicality can punch some holes when the game starts to break up in the last quarter.

i can be harsh on Phillips. If he were to tighten up his passing and play the more traditional scrum half role and still retain his powerful abrasive style of running he would be one of Wales best ever scrum half's, and you have produced some great players.

Phillips frustrates me more than anything else. He could be brilliant.

I don't know what Gatland has in mind for a halfback partnership. I'm assuming he'll experiment with combinations in the 1st few games.

He is certainly not the most eloquent but he is effective enough that it is tough to argue against him. When we had Peel I couldnt see why Phillips even got game time.

Now Im glad he did. He has won a lot of games for Wales, Ospreys and Lions

Ben Youngs is definitely the best all-round scrum-half here IMO and should work well with Sexton, I just hope he can start performing in the big games.

Youngs, Phillips and Laidlaw is probably fair. Murray and Care were both in good form before they both had shockers against Italy which has probably ruled them out. Quins-Munster still might be worth watching.

Definitely will...!

I'm a bit surprised with the poll so far as I thought Danny Care might reduce the votes for Ben Youngs but it looks fairly decisive for Youngs over Phillips.
His quicker pass & pace will be crucial.

Laidlaw.

I have rated him for a while since his displays for Edinburgh and was really hoping for him to shine in this six nations and thus grab a seat on the plane.

Unfortunately he did not - still suffering from a lack of confidence I guess but he did not show the creativity and sparkle he has done in the past.

I far prefer a Scrum half in the Parra / Genia style and Laidlaw might well be the best we have in this role but as he has not really shown it recently he could well miss out. I don't rate Philips for the reasons Radge states above, Care I think will always have the temperamental weakness and thus is out so Youngs it is with Philps / laidlaw as backup depending on the tactical situation.

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:I'm a bit surprised with the poll so far as I thought Danny Care might reduce the votes for Ben Youngs but it looks fairly decisive for Youngs over Phillips.
His quicker pass & pace will be crucial.

Ben Youngs is a skilful player who showed that he has what Care doesn't this championship. I decided to go with Phillips for his experience and his big game attitude.

Ben Youngs has failed in must win games several times now for England. GS attempt in 2011, 1/4 finals RWC 2011, GS attempt 2013. In contrast Phillips has won three GS and was man of the match against Ireland in the RWC 1/4 finals. He was also superb on the last Lions tour.

That experience is what you need in Lions Test Matches

Has Phillips ever been on the winning side against a SH team?

TJ wrote:Has Phillips ever been on the winning side against a SH team?

Definitely against Samoa and Fiji. I'd imagine he played when we beat the Aussies in 08 and has winning experience with the Lions (albeit on a totally different continent)

Risca Rev wrote:

TJ wrote:Has Phillips ever been on the winning side against a SH team?

Definitely against Samoa and Fiji. I'd imagine he played when we beat the Aussies in 08 and has winning experience with the Lions (albeit on a totally different continent)

Er. No, it was Gareth Cooper: http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/rugby_union/welsh/7752340.stm

So THAT'S why they won...

SYNOPSIS OF THE POLL SO FAR...

Forwards

Cian Healy 41% 31
Rory Best 49% 37
Adam Jones 62% 36
Richie Gray 16% 22
Geoff Parling 14% 23
Chris Robshaw 27% 16
Justin Tipuric 44% 22
John Beattie 37% 22 (Toby Faletau 1 vote short)

Backs

Ben Youngs 54% 27
Jonny Sexton 44% 18
Jamie Roberts is tied with Billy Twelvetrees 31% 4
Manu Tuilagi 50% 7 (Brian O'Driscoll is 1 vote short)

Phillips is at his best when the opposition are a little hesitant, just look at his display v England. Give him an inch and he'll hand you off and take a mile.

But if the teams are a lot more even I'd go with Youngs, his superior kikcing game and pace off the mark is more of an asset.

yappysnap wrote:Phillips is at his best when the opposition are a little hesitant, just look at his display v England. Give him an inch and he'll hand you off and take a mile.

But if the teams are a lot more even I'd go with Youngs, his superior kikcing game and pace off the mark is more of an asset.

Laidlaw has quite a similar skill set to Youngs, could be interesting watching the two of them fighting it out.

I've went with Youngs due to the harder pitches in Aus but it's a tough call.

Maybe Phillips starting with Youngs coming on from the bench might be a better tactic.

Laidlaw for 3rd SH/FH option behind Sexton & Farrell.

For me Youngs, Murray and Care.

I won't take Phillips, I know he is big and Physical, but you need a sniper against Genia, Philips is too slow for that.

maestegmafia wrote:

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:I'm a bit surprised with the poll so far as I thought Danny Care might reduce the votes for Ben Youngs but it looks fairly decisive for Youngs over Phillips.
His quicker pass & pace will be crucial.

Ben Youngs is a skilful player who showed that he has what Care doesn't this championship. I decided to go with Phillips for his experience and his big game attitude.

Ben Youngs has failed in must win games several times now for England. GS attempt in 2011, 1/4 finals RWC 2011, GS attempt 2013. In contrast Phillips has won three GS and was man of the match against Ireland in the RWC 1/4 finals. He was also superb on the last Lions tour.

That experience is what you need in Lions Test Matches

I was unaware that the results of those games were entirely dependent on Youngs, the pack got smashed in 2 of those which is of course Youngs' fault. Lets also not mention the MOTM performances he has had against SH opposition, i imagine he'll have more than Phillips.

Anyways, Youngs would be my first choice, he is a similar player to Genia, but one of the very few i have seen that have outplayed him when given good ball, which the Lions should be more than capable of providing. I really don't rate Philips as a scrum half for the reasons listed above, however i would take him as he offers a different option to the others.

I'd take Phillips and Care as my lead two. Whilst both have their flaws, they aren't bottlers in big games, unlike Youngs, who has a habit of lacking composure when the heat is really on. I know Care has had some poor performances but they weren't down to occassion, rather just things not coming off for him.

Imagine starting off with Phillips, having the Aus defence slow to his pace, but get tight around fringes to stop his powerful snipes, then bring Care on against tired legs to get quick ball to the backs, completely changing the Aus defencive structure, and during the change and chaos using his footspeed to make breaks off penalties.

Could be lethal

My views on Philips are well known: good at what he does, effective against some teams, found badly wanting against others. I agree with Radge that he was great in 2009 but that was against a pack of huge, trundling biffers like the Springboks.

The people who are suggesting that Philips will somehow take Australia by surprise and be effective are missing a couple of things:

1. Some numbers. Since Wales' victory over the Wallabies in November 2008 (in which Philips did not feature), they have played Australia 8 times and lost all 8. With the exception of the December 2011 international and the November 2009 international, Philips played in each of those games. What exactly do people think that Robbie Deans doesn't know about him already? There cannot be a NH team that Australia knows better than Wales.

2. Most of the games above I watched with my brother (a former international schools and club scrum half) and you would have to have been blind or prejudiced to realise that Philips is unable to cope with a sniper or effectively disrupt a quick distributor. He doesn't think or move fast enough. Not only couldn't he cope with Genia, in the latter internationals mentioned, he also couldn't cope with Genia's understudy, Nick Phipps.

I am not having a go at Philips, really I'm not. He's very good and can be very effective. As has been pointed out, unless you're Morgan Parra or Ruan Pienaar (or, um, Will Genia ), it's very rare for scrum halfs to be instrumental in whether their side wins or loses matches.

However, not to select players to reflect the teams that they're playing against is ludicrous. It's deeply, deeply worrying to suggest that somehow playing Phillips will magically result in something different to the six occasions in the past 4 years where he (as with some of his colleagues) has clearly been found wanting by his opposite number.

Looseheaded wrote:I'd take Phillips and Care as my lead two. Whilst both have their flaws, they aren't bottlers in big games, unlike Youngs, who has a habit of lacking composure when the heat is really on. I know Care has had some poor performances but they weren't down to occassion, rather just things not coming off for him.

Imagine starting off with Phillips, having the Aus defence slow to his pace, but get tight around fringes to stop his powerful snipes, then bring Care on against tired legs to get quick ball to the backs, completely changing the Aus defencive structure, and during the change and chaos using his footspeed to make breaks off penalties.

Could be lethal

Agree with your sentiment, but imagine Care kicking the ball straight up in the air with a miss kick it falls to opposition hands and the immediately send the fullback over in the corner.

I agree about Youngs too, for all Phillips big match abilities Youngs has choked several times in crucial games for England and Leicester.

Does anyone have information on how Laidlaw deals with pressure, I haven't seen him tested?

maestegmafia wrote: and Leicester.

Does anyone have information on how Laidlaw deals with pressure, I haven't seen him tested?

Generally very well in that he does not go to pieces or panic. Plenty of experience playing under pressure for Edinburgh! What he has done however is try to win every thing himself rather than trusting his flyhalf / rest of the team and a tendency to kick too much under pressure as in this 6N.

He is a almost the opposite of Phillips. He is very quick to the ruck and very quick to deliver the ball. If you want your SH to do this and thus play a high tempo game he is your man. He can also take a lot of pressure off the 10 with his great kicking game. His flaws are that he can get bounced off when he tries to tackle and that sometimes takes on too much himself resulting in a very predictable game.

Difficult to generalise about Laidlaw Maes - I think I can usefully say only that (a) he was one of the few Edinburgh players midseason who actually seemed p!ssed off that the team kept losing and (b) he has a very good record in cracking over last minute penalties and conversions to win matches - not least against Ireland in the 6N, Australia in 2012 and Fiji/Tonga in 2012.

As per previous threads, he kicked at about 88% during the 6N which was the highest for goalkickers given the job in every match.

Bodes well. He's a proper, yappy smart scrum half too. Reminded of last year's 6N when he scored against Wales by virtue of distracting everyone by shouting at the ref whilst dinking the ball down on the line between Faletau's open hands. As SJ noted in press interviews during the 6N, Laidlaw is well aware of his relative lack of physical gifts and compensates hugely by being smart in where and how he applies himself. I don't think anyone's suggesting that Laidlaw has a faster pass or break than Youngs or Care, for example.

A lot will depend on whether Gats wants different skillsets amongst his scrum half options.

Cheers George.

I think other than Six Nations Rugby I don't think many on here know who he is or much about him.

He has all the skills to fight with the best. It is just the temperament and bit of spark needed to put opposition off their game and lift ours.

"I agree about Youngs too, for all Phillips big match abilities Youngs has choked several times in crucial games for England and Leicester."

How does Youngs "choke"?

Youngs has been on the winning side in Aus, also outplaying Genia. Phillips has never outplayed Genia.

I rate Youngs and would have him as lions SH on this years performances but I seem to remember him cracking under pressure and his game going to pieces? Not so?

I would argue that the only time Youngs can be deemed to have choked was the 2011 match in Dublin where he lost his composure and got a really dumb YC. As a young man with a pack that failed dismally not unexpected.

Other than that he has had good games and bad games - like any player. In his favour he has gone well when opposite Genia. 2 starts, outplayed him twice, England won twice (home and away). However the downside is that was in 2010. Youngs is a more considered player now and does not run as much as he did then - in part due to gameplans, in part due to other skills improving, in part maybe at times a lack of confidence.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:"I agree about Youngs too, for all Phillips big match abilities Youngs has choked several times in crucial games for England and Leicester."

How does Youngs "choke"?

Youngs has been on the winning side in Aus, also outplaying Genia. Phillips has never outplayed Genia.

2011 GS, 2013 GS, numerous HC matches he has underperformed.

Yes but the Aus game wasn't an occasion even close to either of those things or a Lions tour.

I just don't think he's a big game player, whereas Phillips, love him or hate him, is undeniably someone who excels on the grand stage.

Looseheaded wrote:I just don't think he's a big game player, whereas Phillips, love him or hate him, is undeniably someone who excels on the grand stage.

Except against Australia

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

Looseheaded wrote:I just don't think he's a big game player, whereas Phillips, love him or hate him, is undeniably someone who excels on the grand stage.

Except against Australia

Well he wasn't particularly poor against them, and that wasn't a grand occasion seeing as we played them 4 times in one year, whereas this is a one in four year tour.

Looseheaded wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:"I agree about Youngs too, for all Phillips big match abilities Youngs has choked several times in crucial games for England and Leicester."

How does Youngs "choke"?

Youngs has been on the winning side in Aus, also outplaying Genia. Phillips has never outplayed Genia.

2011 GS, 2013 GS, numerous HC matches he has underperformed.

Yes but the Aus game wasn't an occasion even close to either of those things or a Lions tour.

I just don't think he's a big game player, whereas Phillips, love him or hate him, is undeniably someone who excels on the grand stage.

I wouldn't say he choked in any of those games.

And he played out of his skin in beating Oz. And his original debut for Tigers was against SA where he stole the show and demolished them. When fit and on form he loves big games.

Looseheaded wrote:

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

Looseheaded wrote:I just don't think he's a big game player, whereas Phillips, love him or hate him, is undeniably someone who excels on the grand stage.

Except against Australia

Well he wasn't particularly poor against them, and that wasn't a grand occasion seeing as we played them 4 times in one year, whereas this is a one in four year tour.

So Youngs is poor in a one off game according to you? But Phillips is poor across a whole tour of Oz. And you'd prefer Phillips to tour because he's better suited???