Declan Kidney- IRFU decide not to renew contract

First topic message reminder :

Declan Kidney has been sacked.

The search for a new ireland coach begins.

Les Kiss appointed interm coach. is this an interview for the top job. what can the IRFU learn about him during a tour to the states?
http://www.irishrugby.ie/news/28869.php

Watch it DOD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! This is getting serious now.

Rodders has his finger on the red button and has already made it clear he wouldn't be afraid to use it against a Munstorian Imperialist Aggressor!

Ease up now, I'm too close to Munster to be a neutral. Hmmm, I'm also too close to Ulster............. make sure your nukes don't fall short guys!!!!

You anywhere near Sneem Fly - That's my old place of origin, looks quaint just like a little welsh mining/farming village

DOD wrote:Lets try this another way...

I don't really like O'Gara even though I don't know him. He has an awful lot of faults in his personality. The comments he makes can be controversial but one thing I will say for him is that he wears his heart on his sleeve and gives his all when he plays (for either Munster and Ireland) and in Munster he is universally respected for that.

This is fair enough. Its ok to wear your heart on your slieve if it is for the good of your team.

DOD wrote:
With that the comments by people on here are completely over the top but I guess come from jealousy, ignorance, lack of knowledge of the game and in many cases downright nastiness based on a certain victimhood mentality (I cant really think it can be any other reason).

Not worth comment.

DOD wrote:
Love him or loathe him (which appears to be the case on this site) he has been one of the players at the forefront of Irish rugby over the last 10+ years. Kim Jong-un (rodders) and politburo friends (is it ok that the mention relates to N...h Korea?) are just looking for a reason to have a go. Have fun.

Not worth comment.

You seem to be getting yourself in a knot over nothing.

DOD wrote:People are getting confused I think. Somebody mentioned sectarianism and I would like it noted that I have never said anything sectarian to Sin é even though he is from Tipperary...that's a big thing for someone from Cork

To everyone else. I bring you love

Yea, it is. Fair play DOD

Guby is a Kerryman - will you be able to restrain yourself with him?

RubyGuby wrote:You anywhere near Sneem Fly - That's my old place of origin, looks quaint just like a little welsh mining/farming village

Sneem???? If I was I wouldn't have long to live. It'd take DOD no time to get to me. I'm in Leinster...the other side of the country.

Sin é wrote:

DOD wrote:People are getting confused I think. Somebody mentioned sectarianism and I would like it noted that I have never said anything sectarian to Sin é even though he is from Tipperary...that's a big thing for someone from Cork

To everyone else. I bring you love

Yea, it is. Fair play DOD

Guby is a Kerryman - will you be able to restrain yourself with him?

That's pushing things now. At least in Tipp they attempt to play hurling....what do you call a Kerryman with a hurley - a member of the FCA.

I'm in Leinster too and I'm a little bit freaked out to be honest.

I'm looking out the window and there's this big yellow glowing sort of ball in the sky! There's something coming from it too. I can't quite put my finger on it. It's like... the opposite of cold. What is going on.

Any idea's lads?

I do see what you're talking about Feckless... It's monstrous big but still awfully f**king cold!

Maybe it's only going to look good this year and save on the heating with the economy being the way it is.

GunsGerms wrote:

DOD wrote:Lets try this another way...

I don't really like O'Gara even though I don't know him. He has an awful lot of faults in his personality. The comments he makes can be controversial but one thing I will say for him is that he wears his heart on his sleeve and gives his all when he plays (for either Munster and Ireland) and in Munster he is universally respected for that.

This is fair enough. Its ok to wear your heart on your slieve if it is for the good of your team.

DOD wrote:
With that the comments by people on here are completely over the top but I guess come from jealousy, ignorance, lack of knowledge of the game and in many cases downright nastiness based on a certain victimhood mentality (I cant really think it can be any other reason).

Not worth comment.

DOD wrote:
Love him or loathe him (which appears to be the case on this site) he has been one of the players at the forefront of Irish rugby over the last 10+ years. Kim Jong-un (rodders) and politburo friends (is it ok that the mention relates to N...h Korea?) are just looking for a reason to have a go. Have fun.

Not worth comment.

You seem to be getting yourself in a knot over nothing.

Don't comment then

I don't really see the big deal. ROG has always had a healthy ego (as most sportsmen do) but has more or less been able to back it up the whole way through his career. Unfortunately now his body isn't as quick as his mind and he plainly can't cut it anymore as he use to. He backs himself to be a better option pretty much as any professional sportsman would. He fact that he is deluded in that opinion is another matter as his form this season has demonstrated. As other people have said I would rather listen to ROG in an interview because he will give you an actual opinion he holds rather than the bland corporate speak of the vast majority of modern internationals.

Right lads I can see we're all in agreement here....moving swiftly on then ..any National tips?

DOD wrote:
Don't comment then

OK

Kidskneedogara is the one I'm backing, Rodders

Thornley riding.

I think the IRFU will have to get rid of all of the coaches and start from scratch.

As an example England had three head coaches who all used the same Forward and defence coaches and through those 7 years the teams played broadly the same style and were pap.

It wasn't until there was a total clear out that we then began to see a change of culture and tactics.

SecretFly wrote:Kidskneedogara is the one I'm backing, Rodders

Thornley riding.

yappysnap wrote:I think the IRFU will have to get rid of all of the coaches and start from scratch.

As an example England had three head coaches who all used the same Forward and defence coaches and through those 7 years the teams played broadly the same style and were pap.

It wasn't until there was a total clear out that we then began to see a change of culture and tactics.

Why are you so wise all of a sudden yappy? Cut that out this instant!

Exactly my thoughts and worries. Let's make sure the house is cleaned fully - no bacterial residue (principles and philosophies) that might multiply quietly again.

Ireland will be lucky to get anyone - Vern Cotter has ruled himself out now. Didn't he go for the England job?


http://www1.skysports.com/rugby-union/news/12506/8616363/Clermont-Auvergne-coach-Vern-Cotter-out-of-running-for-Ireland-job

yappysnap wrote:I think the IRFU will have to get rid of all of the coaches and start from scratch.

As an example England had three head coaches who all used the same Forward and defence coaches and through those 7 years the teams played broadly the same style and were pap.

It wasn't until there was a total clear out that we then began to see a change of culture and tactics.

Completely agree. Five years is plenty. A complete clear-out is needed. If O'Shea, Cotter etc. don't want it, fair enough. Keep looking. But don't re-hire the same guys that were failing under Kidney please.

Sin é wrote:Ireland will be lucky to get anyone - Vern Cotter has ruled himself out now. Didn't he go for the England job?


http://www1.skysports.com/rugby-union/news/12506/8616363/Clermont-Auvergne-coach-Vern-Cotter-out-of-running-for-Ireland-job

McKenzie has opened the door to it but he could also be doing that with one eye on the Aus job and even if he was contracted if Robbie Deans was given the heaveho then he could easily disappear over the horizon.

We probably wont even get the sympathy interest like Italy with Brunel....at least he knew he could improve the team.

Three Months Down the Line:

"Em..................... yeah, yeah, it's me. - Listen, sorry to disturb you and............. painting? - The kitchen? - What colour? - Yeah, yeah, nice colour. - Anyway, just want to throw this idea at you and see what you think............. em,.............. you wouldn't be interested in changing your mind? I mean, changing our mind? I mean, coming out of retirement from the Sacking and giving it another go?????"

McKenzie has already expressed that his real interest is the Wallabies.

Maybe Dingo Deans will come join his good friend Rob Penney in Ireland bearing in mind he is unlikely to be able to pick up any other job in Super Rugby - he certainly won't be getting a job in NZ.

That would be fun - Ulster & Leinster with Auckland coaches - Munster & Ireland with Canterbury ones.

SecretFly wrote:Three Months Down the Line:

"Em..................... yeah, yeah, it's me. - Listen, sorry to disturb you and............. painting? - The kitchen? - What colour? - Yeah, yeah, nice colour. - Anyway, just want to throw this idea at you and see what you think............. em,.............. you wouldn't be interested in changing your mind? I mean, changing our mind? I mean, coming out of retirement from the Sacking and giving it another go?????"

Nah, Les Kiss has the job.

Kiss seems to be a perfect masochist.

SecretFly wrote:Kiss seems to be a perfect masochist.

Its one of the main qualifications for the job....

SecretFly wrote:Kiss seems to be a perfect masochist.

Funny somebody told me the other day thats its the perfect name for a French adult movie.

DOD wrote:

SecretFly wrote:Kiss seems to be a perfect masochist.

Its one of the main qualifications for the job....

So he's just perfect period then.

Nobody else wants the job (going on all the "No"s coming in to headquarters) and we can't lever Kiss away from it. Does he realise his career is going down the same fairground chute as Ireland's?

Or..... has the dastardly bastardly been planning this quiet, phoney-war take-over from the very beginning? Coach dreadful stuff, allow Kidney to take a blame, take over and start really coaching?

Is that just silly nonsense as usual or....................................... have I unearthed a secret masterplan?

Its hard to believe that the IRFU wouldn't be aware as to how attractive/unattractive the job would be, but they have to go through the motions anyway of getting all the touted names to rule themselves out before appointing Kiss.

how much money was deccie on relative to other nations coaches? Im a little concerned by the NO's as well. Our player pool are not that bad.

Eddie O'Sullivan is on the market for a job

Kidney should have offered an olive branch and got him in as backs coach when we parted company with Gaffney.

Are you looking forward to Kiss'n'Smal leading us to the WC, Sin?

Serious question after the play acting. You nervous about it? Happy enough? Cautious?

Mckenzie said he is interested in taking the irish job.

SecretFly wrote:Are you looking forward to Kiss'n'Smal leading us to the WC, Sin?

Serious question after the play acting. You nervous about it? Happy enough? Cautious?

It won't make any difference who leads Ireland to the next world cup - its the players who need to show up.

Look the IRFU are broke, not surprising given Heaslip's wages.... Les Kiss is as good as it gets.

LeinsterFan4life wrote:Mckenzie said he is interested in taking the irish job.

This is what he said:

I have said I am looking for coaching challenges at the next level and I am looking for whatever the possibilities are," McKenzie told Sydney's Daily Telegraph. "It's the type of job I am interested in looking at but there have been no discussions. I have stated I would like the Wallabies job but it's all in the timing. You have to look around what's available when you're looking for a job.

Sin é wrote:

SecretFly wrote:Are you looking forward to Kiss'n'Smal leading us to the WC, Sin?

Serious question after the play acting. You nervous about it? Happy enough? Cautious?

It won't make any difference who leads Ireland to the next world cup - its the players who need to show up.

The reality is that the job isn't a big catch for the top coaches. The IRFU are going to struggle to find someone else and people like McKenzie will only be interested as a stepping stone for the Aus job. The worry now is with Kidney gone we slide even more. With BOD / POC on the wane there is a distinct lack of quality within the team.

rodders wrote:Look the IRFU are broke, not surprising given Heaslip's wages.... Les Kiss is as good as it gets.

Not to mention propping up Ulster with highly paid Saffers

I take it now Rods that Afoa is commuting back and forth to matches from NZ, Ulster fans are not as outraged at Paddy Wallace heading out there to play in one game last summer?

Sin é wrote:

rodders wrote:Look the IRFU are broke, not surprising given Heaslip's wages.... Les Kiss is as good as it gets.

Not to mention propping up Ulster with highly paid Saffers

I take it now Rods that Afoa is commuting back and forth to matches from NZ, Ulster fans are not as outraged at Paddy Wallace heading out there to play in one game last summer?

If Kidney was to blame for the commute then we'd be on bad form about it

rodders wrote:

Sin é wrote:

rodders wrote:Look the IRFU are broke, not surprising given Heaslip's wages.... Les Kiss is as good as it gets.

Not to mention propping up Ulster with highly paid Saffers

I take it now Rods that Afoa is commuting back and forth to matches from NZ, Ulster fans are not as outraged at Paddy Wallace heading out there to play in one game last summer?

If Kidney was to blame for the commute then we'd be on bad form about it

Its ROG's fault. He mentioned it in the Beano Rugby Weekly....I swear.

ROG would drive most people out of the country in fairness... poor Keano had to clear off because ROG was stalking him....

Sin é wrote:

SecretFly wrote:Are you looking forward to Kiss'n'Smal leading us to the WC, Sin?

Serious question after the play acting. You nervous about it? Happy enough? Cautious?

It won't make any difference who leads Ireland to the next world cup - its the players who need to show up.

Non committal as usual Sin.

Keeping your cards close to your chest when the inevitable battles begin again in a year or two about something called a coach who ain't working. You'll be there saying either you told us so or... if we're all happy with him, you'll be asking us to remember the day you said we would be

SecretFly wrote:

Sin é wrote:

SecretFly wrote:Are you looking forward to Kiss'n'Smal leading us to the WC, Sin?

Serious question after the play acting. You nervous about it? Happy enough? Cautious?

It won't make any difference who leads Ireland to the next world cup - its the players who need to show up.

Non committal as usual Sin.

Keeping your cards close to your chest when the inevitable battles begin again in a year or two about something called a coach who ain't working. You'll be there saying either you told us so or... if we're all happy with him, you'll be asking us to remember the day you said we would be

You're wrong fly what Sin é and myself are saying is that a new coach wont make a huge difference. I hope we get someone decent but that doesn't look likely. At this stage I hope that Joe Schmidt get the job but that also doesn't look likely. I wont be criticising him in a years time if he is coach nor do I think Sin é will be either (you can quote me on that in a year). But if the results arentimproving things greatly then you should expect lots of I told you so's then (But that has nothing to do with the coach)

DOD wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

Sin é wrote:

SecretFly wrote:Are you looking forward to Kiss'n'Smal leading us to the WC, Sin?

Serious question after the play acting. You nervous about it? Happy enough? Cautious?

It won't make any difference who leads Ireland to the next world cup - its the players who need to show up.

Non committal as usual Sin.

Keeping your cards close to your chest when the inevitable battles begin again in a year or two about something called a coach who ain't working. You'll be there saying either you told us so or... if we're all happy with him, you'll be asking us to remember the day you said we would be

You're wrong fly what Sin é and myself are saying is that a new coach wont make a huge difference. I hope we get someone decent but that doesn't look likely. At this stage I hope that Joe Schmidt get the job but that also doesn't look likely. I wont be criticising him in a years time if he is coach nor do I think Sin é will be either (you can quote me on that in a year). But if the results arentimproving things greatly then you should expect lots of I told you so's then (But that has nothing to do with the coach)

+1

I certainly won't be out to hang the unfortunate coach, but don't expect me to reign-in the "I told you so's."

Interesting take on it from a Kiwi side of things

http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/international/8503159/Kiwi-Schmidt-tipped-for-vacant-Irish-rugby-job

I particularly like this quote concerning whether McKenzie should take the Ireland job if offered it

"But can McKenzie risk holding out for that when it appears he could be handed a position with an Irish team that is well respected and has huge potential despite their recent run of poor results?"

It suggests our players are rated fairly highly in the SH and the Ireland job should be an attractive position.

DOD wrote:

You're wrong fly what Sin é and myself are saying is that a new coach wont make a huge difference. I hope we get someone decent but that doesn't look likely. At this stage I hope that Joe Schmidt get the job but that also doesn't look likely. I wont be criticising him in a years time if he is coach nor do I think Sin é will be either (you can quote me on that in a year). But if the results arentimproving things greatly then you should expect lots of I told you so's then (But that has nothing to do with the coach)

I wouldn't expect anything else. Fair is fair in love and war. Joe seems to be the only blasted non-Kiss coach who hasn't said a direct yeas or no yet... so who knows.

But on that highlighted bit. It'd be a long slog through five years of bullshyte from me...but if you did do it, you'd see I wasn't criticising Kidney for the full five years either.

I gave him his rope time to play with, as all coaches deserve. I'm bringing the same "Give the guy a chance" attitude to Penney. One year is no judgement time. Even two is cutting it fine. Three, the pressure comes on. And that's kinda the period I personally started asking for much more from Declan. The rest is history.

But yeah, you'd be entitled to start hitting on Schmidt if he was a coach in position for a number of years and he wasn't making an impact. I won't be holding his hand if and when you let loose on him. If he deserves it, I'd be doing it myself - guaranteed.

id give mc kenzie a shot in that case. He has a decent track record to be fair

if schmidt, cotter, oshea, deans etc are not interested or too pricey so be it.

listen a new coach of reasonable pedigree will see an improvement on the last two years. i honestly cannot see how we can get any worse unless we re appoint the current coaching team minus Kidney.

I would criticise Schmidt if the game plan was completely askew or he had lots of players playing out of position. This is where I disagree with regards to the criticism of Kidney. I believe he moved the game plan on from 2009 and changed the team personnel and he had the players with him. There was a transition period but it was moving on.

The problem as I saw it was the inability of the players in the step up from HC/Club to international. There was no Nacewa, Pienaar, Howlett, Rocky etc to get an out from which invariably happened in the club games. Kidney is very clear in giving the players responsibility in a lot of cases they didn't look capable of taking responsibility or doing the things on the pitch like Nacewa etc that would lift the team or do something extraordinary.

Players like Madigan and Zebo look like they have some of this ability....

Conversely if Schmidt comes in does a great job and brings us a GS or Championship or gets us to a Semi of the WC through 15 man mauls or Fijiesque footie then I would be delighted. Am looking forward to the new coach whoever that is but I don't hold my breath for this amazing rugby we are going to suddenly start producing.

DOD wrote:I would criticise Schmidt if the game plan was completely askew or he had lots of players playing out of position. This is where I disagree with regards to the criticism of Kidney. I believe he moved the game plan on from 2009 and changed the team personnel and he had the players with him. There was a transition period but it was moving on.

The problem as I saw it was the inability of the players in the step up from HC/Club to international. There was no Nacewa, Pienaar, Howlett, Rocky etc to get an out from which invariably happened in the club games. Kidney is very clear in giving the players responsibility in a lot of cases they didn't look capable of taking responsibility or doing the things on the pitch like Nacewa etc that would lift the team or do something extraordinary.
Players like Madigan and Zebo look like they have some of this ability....

Conversely if Schmidt comes in does a great job and brings us a GS or Championship or gets us to a Semi of the WC through 15 man mauls or Fijiesque footie then I would be delighted. Am looking forward to the new coach whoever that is but I don't hold my breath for this amazing rugby we are going to suddenly start producing.

Well I look on that this way. I did see individual moments of "let's get at it" by individual players..but the problem for me was mostly those moments fell on deaf ears by the other players who I felt weren't coached to expect them.
Single players doing daft but game defining breaks or burning past a few defenders and...................................... no take up from the team. The players left to wilt and embarrass themselves for lack of real support. That's what I tended to see.

And I believed that was because it wasn't getting coached..or in other words, I felt a more 'caution, caution' coaching theory was being commanded. How many times did Kearney rush forward a few years back and jump heroically in the air to get a ball, and we'd all go "Wow"? I considered all that crap, because he usually did the heroic bit all on his own and seldom got to see the rewards of it by support players taking it on, keeping his momentum and taking responsibility. We'd look back down field as the troops trotted up the field, Kearney already dispossessed of his "Wow".

And that last highlight - keep your word now - nobody is promising "sudden"!!! Nobody is promising a green All Blacks in the space of a few months. Keep your word

The problem is to play off the cuff multiphase rugby the two most important components are the scrum half and back row.... something poor old Kidney never really could get his head around ......

How much England coaching do you think someone like Chris Aston needs to be there for a break?

This is grown ups rugby. The players should be able to work this out themselves. Maybe that is the problem - they have all been overcoached at their clubs and they can't think for themselves?

They're meant to think for themselves. The problem is when they are entirely thinking for themselves without any discernible gameplan.

I think all of this giving players responsibility bull regarding Kidney is just a by-word for abdicating responsibility for actually coaching them. Do you think the likes of Graham Henry or Warren Gatland aren't giving their players responsibility? There are very few coaches in international rugby who are entirely mechanistic in their approach.

To make something out of Kidneys Ireland, the players wouldn't need to just take responsibility for themselves but responsibility for co-ordinating and building combinations. For coming up with a gameplan and implementing it. They have responsibility for making things work on the field and adjusting things that don't work out but the coaches have responsibility for the overall structure and philosophy. The lack of continuity caused by injuries really showed us up as not having an approach where everyone knows their role and the understudies can slip in seamlessly the way you see in other test nations.