Munster v Leinster

First topic message reminder :

The Leinster squad trained in UCD on Monday afternoon as attention switched back to the RaboDirect PRO12 and Saturday evening's interprovincial clash against Munster in Thomond Park (KO: 6.30pm)...

Brian O'Driscoll is available for selection after his unavailability in recent weeks and he could be joined by out-half Jonathan Sexton who has stepped up his rehabilitation in recent days after suffering a tear to a tendon in his foot last month.

With Shane Jennings in the frame after his late withdrawal from last Friday night's 48-28 Amlin Challenge Cup quarter final victory, the imminent return of the Ireland trio provides the squad with a major boost as they bid to secure a Play-off berth.

Fergus McFadden and Sean O'Brien completed their first full stint with the province after the Six Nations in High Wycombe in a game which also marked Mike Ross' first try of his professional career. Ian Madigan's 28-point haul has now taken him to 202 points in all competitions, in 26 games so far this season.

With the province's 'A' team booking a place in the British & Irish Cup semi finals on Sunday afternoon following their 30-26 victory over Bristol, Leinster will have two sides in action in the last weekend of April. There are no major injury concerns arising from that game though Andrew Boyle (knee) and Mark Flanagan (foot) will be assessed by the medical team this week after suffering knocks.

The Leinster team to face Munster will be named on Friday lunchtime.

Munster: F Jones; D Hurley, C Laulala, J Downey, S Zebo; I Keatley, C Murray; D Kilcoyne , D Varley, S Archer; Donncha O’Callaghan, P O’Connell capt; P O’Mahony, T O’Donnell , J Coughlan. Replacements: M Sherry, J Cronin, BJ Botha, B Holland, Dave O’Callaghan, C Sheridan, JJ Hanrahan, I Dineen.


LEINSTER:

15: Rob Kearney
14: Dave Kearney
13: Brian O'Driscoll
12: Gordon D'Arcy
11: Isa Nacewa
10: Ian Madigan
9: Isaac Boss

1: Cian Healy
2: Sean Cronin
3: Mike Ross
4: Leo Cullen CAPTAIN
5: Quinn Roux
6: Sean O'Brien
7: Shane Jennings
8: Jamie Heaslip

REPLACEMENTS:

16: Richardt Strauss
17: Jack McGrath
18: Michael Bent
19: Devin Toner
20: Kevin McLaughlin
21: John Cooney
22: Andrew Goodman
23: Andrew Conway

Well Donal lenihan verified how much of a complete and utter Muppet he was in commentating yesterday, Zebo cemmented his lions place, O'Connell may have ruined his own chances, Madigan still well in contention as a bolter utility back and BOD, well hopefully he has already been told by fatland to lead the lions

Mickado wrote:Before the game he basically said that Sexton would never have got a look in were it not for Contepomi's injury, Horgan was also on the panel and he basically called bullsh1t on it, said that Sexton was going to be the number one OH the following year anyway.

I think Hook ment Sexton was being held back by not getting enough games and that ment Ireland was also suffering as ROG had no back up at the time. I would fully agree with that view.

Hi all, very enjoyable game; disappointed to have lost it.

I thought Leinster did a superb job in nullifying Munsters maul. That has been a consistently excellent platform us this season and Leinster obviously spend a lot of time training on how to deal with this.

It might sound cliched and Ive no doubt someone has already made the point but Leinster "out-Munstered" us. What was it 25+ phases of pick and drive to score their try. The same thing to wear down the clock with 2 minutes to go.

I thought that Zebo had a really good game and I would worry about Rob Kearneys chances for the Lions. I also think that Donncha O'Callaghan did very well and his injury was a major loss for us. Isaac Boss was outstanding the way he controlled the tempo and offered himself as an attacking threat also. One of Heaslips best performances for a long time.

Well done to the Leinster fans; the ones who travelled down were good craic.

LeinsterFan4life wrote:Lenihan went very quiet when Leinster scored the try and you coukd hear the dissapointment in Ryle's voice when BOD scored.

RTE are an embarrasment. They are so Munster biased.
Also they haven't shown one Connacht game all season but yet have shown Ulster games which are always on BBC anyway.

Why would Ryle Nugent be disappointed when he scored the try bearing in mind they are both Rock men?

Seriously, you are deluded if you think Ryle Nugent is a Munster fan.

Pete reading back I have no idea how you thought Boss was awful and similarly that Heaslip had a bad game. Boss for me was far and away the best player on the field and a key reason you won.

Stag what do you make of the poc incident? A huge clammer on leinsters babbling brook for a lengthy ban!!

Complete accident. Lengthy ban is just plain silly but I'm worried he might face something like a 2 week ban for reckless behaviour. I'd imagine that would be the worst case scenario.

I'm hoping it will be dismissed as having deserved a yellow card at the time but no sanction need apply.

I just want him in Montpellier Saturday week.

Agree totally watching it in real time I was thinking why is everbody just standing there somebody go for the ball! Hope dk is ok

I wouldn't call it a "huge clammour" in fact there's a few people on the mUnster fan site saying he will be banned too.

red_stag wrote:Hi all, very enjoyable game; disappointed to have lost it.

I thought Leinster did a superb job in nullifying Munsters maul. That has been a consistently excellent platform us this season and Leinster obviously spend a lot of time training on how to deal with this.

It might sound cliched and Ive no doubt someone has already made the point but Leinster "out-Munstered" us. What was it 25+ phases of pick and drive to score their try. The same thing to wear down the clock with 2 minutes to go.

I thought that Zebo had a really good game and I would worry about Rob Kearneys chances for the Lions. I also think that Donncha O'Callaghan did very well and his injury was a major loss for us. Isaac Boss was outstanding the way he controlled the tempo and offered himself as an attacking threat also. One of Heaslips best performances for a long time.

Well done to the Leinster fans; the ones who travelled down were good craic.

I would worry about his place on the irish team also. Zebo was fantastic at 15 for Ireland, and I honestly think he might be best suited there.

Can't players be cited for reckless use of the boot? I think it may well fall into that category but i would be disappointed. There is no way O'Connell intended to kick Kearneys head. I understand if it happens though, especially given the severity of the injury.

On the subject of Zebo, if I were picking an Irish back three (I'm excluding Trimble as he doesn't seem to have a chance) with a view to the AIs it would be Gilroy, bowe with Zebo at 15

Anyone know if Kearney is alright?

Leinsterfanforlife, there is no way on this earth that Ryle is anything other than a Leinster fan, so go way out of that suggesting he was disappointed BOD scored. He is, however, an awful commentator, beaten only by Lenihan himself, who as pointed out, was scathing of a Leinster lineout, that was actually a Munster one. He honestly watches different games to you or I on most occasions. Frankly, as a Munster & Ireland fan i am actually embarrassed when I hear him co-commentating.

Oh, and Shaggy called bullsh!t on Hook big time regarding Sexton. While Hook might have been making the blocking point as referred to above, he said we'd never have heard of him without Felipe getting injured. Now, given people were even suggesting in 2007 that Sexton go to the RWC as back to Paddy Wallace as back up 10, he was any remotely engaged fan's radar (and thus every Irish based coach too) by the 2009 HC semi final.

In fact, I fimly believe that the best thing that happened to Leinster that day in respect of that Heineken Cup run (not the subsequent ones when obviously the experience Sexton had was key) helped them win in 2009. If Felipe had stayed on the pitch, I'd have given Munster more of a chance in that game, even with Rocky & co playing out of their skins. And I suspect that the Leicester pack would have had a better shot at rattling Felipe too.

Mickado wrote:If POC cited it's unlikely to be just or a week, it was intentional but it was dangerous play. Hope it doesn't come to that but feel he should have seen a card at the time, intention has nothing to do with it when there is dangerous play.

Anyway, off that unpleasant subject, happy with that win, feel it should have been more, and would have been if it weren't for a seriously dodgy call from the TMO.

p.s. I'd like to formally go on record as saying that George Hook is like cancer to the rugby public. An absolute joke of a man. His comments before and after were ridiculous and people with a passing interest in rugby will confuse his gravity for gravitas...

Completely agree with that. Like that red card United got against Barcarecently, totally unintentional but was dangerous

As far as I am aware, only the law concerning spear tackles is an offence of absolute liability, so intent or lack thereof will matter. Any way, lets wait an see if he is cited first.

red_stag wrote:Pete reading back I have no idea how you thought Boss was awful and similarly that Heaslip had a bad game. Boss for me was far and away the best player on the field and a key reason you won.

Staggy, hard luck Saturday.
I thought Boss had two aspects of his game.

I thought he was really good when it came to securing our ball. He joined rucks at all the right times when he could have tried a risky pass. He was excellent at this. Also he noticed that when we were against the wind we needed variation in our carrying and began to carry himself and this stopped what was a very aggressive, fast Munster defence which became slightly more flat-footed because there was now another attacking option that they had to content with decision making-wise.

However, when we were in the ascendancy in parts of the first half I felt he slowed the ball down horribly. He slowed it down and then fed Madigan who thrives on quick ball. I felt if we had moved Munster a bit more then they would have tired earlier than they did, and I don't think we attacked them there at all. Too many times Boss slowed the ball down and then fed static guys once the Munster defence was set. I remember a 5 phase movement where we passed to one out runners (after letting the munster defence get set, we had ball available) and lost about 25 yards.

Never thought Heaslip had a bad game, not sure where you got that one?

Agree with what you say about Zebo and Kearney. Zebo was absolutely class. Kearney hasn't been good since his first 3 games back from injury for Leinster before the 6Nations.

I don't think POC should be cited but I do think he should have been carded. Basically he should not have tried to kick that ball. It was idiotic. Kearney did not move his head or the ball so POC doesn't really have a leg to stand on. I was calling for a red in the heat of the moment, I think it should have been a yellow now. I hope he doesn't get cited.

I was a rush of blood to the head game................. now there's a novel emotion when Leinster and Munster play against each other.

Paul was in a world of his own and could only see the ball...pity Kearney's head was invisibly right in the way! It was by no means intentional as I think most watchers would agree ...but it was damned awkward and reckless by Paul. I just don't know how he ever felt he'd avoid the head to get through to the ball. But that's what he obviously thought he could achieve and, well, the heat was up all round the field.

It's what Irish fans want from the classic Irish 'derby' and yet, there were a lot of passionate headless chickens out there at times. I'd guess that Schmidt secretly hates them (Munster/Leinster)...in the sense of what might be coming back to him and straight to the infirmary! Penney, too early to judge what he thinks.
So all the lovely passion and, therefore too, oodles of clouded vision....

Standulstermen wrote:Can't players be cited for reckless use of the boot? I think it may well fall into that category but i would be disappointed. There is no way O'Connell intended to kick Kearneys head. I understand if it happens though, especially given the severity of the injury.

On the subject of Zebo, if I were picking an Irish back three (I'm excluding Trimble as he doesn't seem to have a chance) with a view to the AIs it would be Gilroy, bowe with Zebo at 15

Definitely. I still think Zebo looks even better at 15 anyway. Trimble, Bowe and Gilroy fighting for the wings.

Kearney will be back to his old self in no time. He is just lacking confidence since his return from injury.

He showed last season he is the best 15 in the NH.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

Standulstermen wrote:Can't players be cited for reckless use of the boot? I think it may well fall into that category but i would be disappointed. There is no way O'Connell intended to kick Kearneys head. I understand if it happens though, especially given the severity of the injury.

On the subject of Zebo, if I were picking an Irish back three (I'm excluding Trimble as he doesn't seem to have a chance) with a view to the AIs it would be Gilroy, bowe with Zebo at 15

Definitely. I still think Zebo looks even better at 15 anyway. Trimble, Bowe and Gilroy fighting for the wings.

+1 but I don't believe Gilroy is playing as well as many say

Nor do I Pete. Actually thinking of next seasons Ireland team I think that a realistic Ireland team to face Australia in November would be looking like:

Healy, Best, Ross
Ryan, O'Connell
O'Brien, Heaslip (c), Henry
Murray, Madigan
Marshall, O'Driscoll
Trimble, Zebo, Bowe

Strauss, Kilcoyne, Archer, McCarthy, O'Mahony, Boss, Sexton, Kearney

red_stag wrote:Nor do I Pete. Actually thinking of next seasons Ireland team I think that a realistic Ireland team to face Australia in November would be looking like:

Healy, Best, Ross
Ryan, O'Connell
O'Brien, Heaslip (c), Henry
Murray, Madigan
Marshall, O'Driscoll
Trimble, Zebo, Bowe

Strauss, Kilcoyne, Archer, McCarthy, O'Mahony, Boss, Sexton, Kearney

I'd chose that exact team I think, although I may put Marmion on the bench ahead of Boss.

red_stag wrote:Nor do I Pete. Actually thinking of next seasons Ireland team I think that a realistic Ireland team to face Australia in November would be looking like:

Healy, Best, Ross
Ryan, O'Connell
O'Brien, Heaslip (c), Henry
Murray, Madigan
Marshall, O'Driscoll
Trimble, Zebo, Bowe

Strauss, Kilcoyne, Archer, McCarthy, O'Mahony, Boss, Sexton, Kearney

Would change it slightly stag. Hendo to lock over Ryan for me. Back row is a conundrum for me and I don't know what way it will go.

I don't mind seeing Trimble above Gilroy (next Saturdays selection will be interesting) but I do think Gilroy has been playing very well. He hasn't been getting the rewards perhaps but then neither has Zebo. I think both have displayed a serious amount of class in their last few outings.

Great win by Leinster. Congrats.

Standulstermen wrote:

red_stag wrote:Nor do I Pete. Actually thinking of next seasons Ireland team I think that a realistic Ireland team to face Australia in November would be looking like:

Healy, Best, Ross
Ryan, O'Connell
O'Brien, Heaslip (c), Henry
Murray, Madigan
Marshall, O'Driscoll
Trimble, Zebo, Bowe

Strauss, Kilcoyne, Archer, McCarthy, O'Mahony, Boss, Sexton, Kearney

Would change it slightly stag. Hendo to lock over Ryan for me. Back row is a conundrum for me and I don't know what way it will go.

I don't mind seeing Trimble above Gilroy (next Saturdays selection will be interesting) but I do think Gilroy has been playing very well. He hasn't been getting the rewards perhaps but then neither has Zebo. I think both have displayed a serious amount of class in their last few outings.

Got to be one of the only teams in world rugby where the openside is taller than the blindside.

Christ almighty lads, you never learn. All the criticisms of Kidney playing people out of position and some of you do exactly the same thing. Zebo is a fantastic talent, he could possibly be a world class winger. So here's what's been proposed- shove him at fullback? That's just utterly moronic. Even if Zebo becomes a good international fullback, even a very good one, he could and will be an outstanding winger. Square pegs into square holes. If Zebo is going to be 15 for Munster then fantastic- if not then it just continues the errors and fallacies that some posters, the very same heading the Kidney out queue, bemoaned about national selection. If Kearney returns to form great. If not we look at someone playing 15 consistently. Jones has (unfortunately as I'm a fan) been poor. Henshaw might be worth a look. Do we really want to blunt Zebo shoving him into a position where he might be passable but less effective (aka Keith Earlsitis) when they already excel in one position?

I don't think it's as clear cut with Zebo Hook. If Kearney regains top form then the point is moot but Zebo has shown he possesses the skills to develop as a top back three player. Didn't harm Cory Jane after all.

Of course if he is going to be Ireland's 15 long term then he should be playing there for Munster but Jones isn't setting the world alight down there and Earls may yet be moved out to the wing. I think Zebo could be effective anywhere in the back three. Henshaw is another option but it depends how Lam sees him developing between Griffin and Leyden who has had bad luck with injury.

You'd DROP Donnacha Ryan????? Seriously? For Henderson?

Honestly Stand Im biting my virtual keyboard lip in saying what I really think of that

Lets just say everyone is entitled to an opinion

Hookisms,

I agree with you entirely about trying to squash people into position. However I think he could be an extremely good fullback for Munster and as we all know wing is Keith Earls best position.

Zebo's ability under the high ball and big left boot make him a great option at fullback.

From a Munster point of view I think Earls and Conway and O'Dea are good wing prospects while Zebo could be the man for fullback. . . . .certainly isn't Felix Jones anymore (sadly!)

Absolutely would stag. Ryan didn't impress me during the 6N one bit. Clearly a good player but lacks the athleticism at the top level maybe. i just think we were badly shown up in the tight five during the 6N. It is of course dependent on what happens in between now and then and if Ulster continually select Henderson at 6 then it isn't really a hat option. Also think we need to see Henderson learning from the great man as much as possible.

Ah yea I'm assuming he'll be playing solidly at 6 for Ulster so it seems a strange move.

Listen Stag, I agree. But the fact is international rugby is a setup from European club rugby and a huge setup from from the Rabo. Simply unless Zebo or Earls play 15 for Munster they can't be seriously considered in that position for Ireland. It is not the place to come in and learn about a position to go back to your province and play elsewhere. It's an absolute nonsense. Square pegs, square holes.

While on that subject this Henderson to second row for Ireland drives me insane. We need a new dynamic lock for sure. What evidence do we have that Henderson is actually a second row? He has put on one, maybe two good performances for Ulster in second row. The rest have been seriously underwhelming. The vast, vast majority of good, sometimes exceptional, have been at 6. We can't just will him into a position because we want him to be ala LukeFitzgeraldKeithEarlsSimonZeboFergudMcFadden syndrome.

Standulstermen wrote:Absolutely would stag. Ryan didn't impress me during the 6N one bit. Clearly a good player but lacks the athleticism at the top level maybe. i just think we were badly shown up in the tight five during the 6N. It is of course dependent on what happens in between now and then and if Ulster continually select Henderson at 6 then it isn't really a hat option. Also think we need to see Henderson learning from the great man as much as possible.

Ryan was carrying an injury during the 6Ns (and still carrying it). He was rested again this weekend (when POM was used and he played as much in the 6Ns).

Earls won't be moved out to the wing or fullback for Munster - that would be a short term option because Laulala has only one more year and then more than likely BOD will retire probably before the next 6Ns, if not sooner.

Hookisms and Hyperbole wrote:Listen Stag, I agree. But the fact is international rugby is a setup from European club rugby and a huge setup from from the Rabo. Simply unless Zebo or Earls play 15 for Munster they can't be seriously considered in that position for Ireland. It is not the place to come in and learn about a position to go back to your province and play elsewhere. It's an absolute nonsense. Square pegs, square holes.

Agree in full. No arguments there.

Hookisms and Hyperbole wrote:While on that subject this Henderson to second row for Ireland drives me insane. We need a new dynamic lock for sure. What evidence do we have that Henderson is actually a second row? He has put on one, maybe two good performances for Ulster in second row. The rest have been seriously underwhelming. The vast, vast majority of good, sometimes exceptional, have been at 6. We can't just will him into a position because we want him to be ala LukeFitzgeraldKeithEarlsSimonZeboFergudMcFadden syndrome.

I also agree.

If he continually plays 6 it's a non starter really but with Diacks form (and tuohys by extension) even Geoff was mentioning that ulster may look to use him more in the row.

Line out has been ulster big weakness and Diack and Henderson help that immensely. All supposition of course but I think longer term and for Ireland, Henderson will be best employed at lock.

Got to disagree with you hook. I think Hendersons performances against Leinster at ravenhill stands against any other game he has had for us including Castres at home or Saints. The vast majority of his games have been at 6 obviously but even last night he was excellent in the row.

It's early days of course and more knowledgable men than you or I will make the call but with my crystal ball that's how I see it

Hookisms and Hyperbole wrote:Listen Stag, I agree. But the fact is international rugby is a setup from European club rugby and a huge setup from from the Rabo.

Strange thought I know but the Leinster and Munster I saw at the weekend would destroy the Ireland I've been watching for the last few years. What does that say about the step-up that so many people naturally think happens when International happens? International Should be always a step up - yes.
I don't know the exact percentage, but let's say for a substantial chunk, percentage-wise, International just doesn't live up to that billing - not in Europe anyway.

I know what you're saying that International is no place to be learning your trade in a position you don't fill at Province. True. It's just that automatic line about International being a step-up that I'm becoming more uneasy with as the years fly by.

Fly, I think there is a difference between the intensity of high level club rugby and international rugby. The margin for error is so much lower, there is more at stake. Watch the Six Nations- you have four, probably five teams trying not to lose a match. Kidneys Ireland are petrified, paralysed with fear about losing. Watch Leinster or Ulster this season. Two teams that are always trying to win matches not afraid of losing

Of the starts last night, the non-international/limited international experience were: Kilcoyne, Varley, Archer, POM, Coughlan, Keatley, Downey, Jones, Hurley. For Leinster it was: Cronin, Leo, Le Roux, Jennings, Boss, Madigan, Dave Kearney.

The players are just not as good individually - what helps is that they train and play together a lot more than they do as internationals.

Jeysus TOD made 19 tackles and missed none. Drico made one and missed it!

Not sure the stats are totally accurate as it says Munster had 100% kicking accuracy even though Keatley clearly missed both conversions.

Ha sounds like poor stats there! :8

With so many back3 players in munster next year, I can see a misfiring jones losing out. He should have lost out before now I think. Zebo,
Earls, Hurley, Conway and murphy are all capable of playing 15 and some of them (zebo, earls) should be played there.

I don't think the scrum stats are great but take them for what they are and they confirm that TOD was very very good.

Had a gander at the ulster stats as an example and they have Diack down for making Less tackles than Williams but carrying for further

Did anyone else notice Lenihan praising Munster for steling a lineout when it was Munster's throw in- brilliant

geoff998rugby wrote:Did anyone else notice Lenihan praising Munster for steling a lineout when it was Munster's throw in- brilliant

+1

He's such a dope.
Also Hook saying O'Driscoll went so low in his pick and drives not like this particular carry (picture was O'Driscoll carrying just before his try)

Hooks analysis was essentially lamenting ROG not being on the pitch. I thought keatley did well truth be told and outplayed his more vaunted opponent. Boss, out-murrayed Murray though.

Most of the papers seem to agree that the Munster pack were on top for the game and that Munster have more positives to take from the game, but I'd think you'd be disappointed to lose a game where you enjoy such total forward dominance!

Madigans double step and pass to Nacewa wa just a taster of what he can do. Cracking stuff.

That was lovely alright Mick, and his kicking is top notch. Had the wit to know when not to take it on too. I just thought keatley showed plenty and in fairness to him the munster forwards seemed incapable of going through more than 2/3 phases at the end. They just ran out of puff.

red_stag wrote:You'd DROP Donnacha Ryan????? Seriously? For Henderson?

Honestly Stand Im biting my virtual keyboard lip in saying what I really think of that

Lets just say everyone is entitled to an opinion

I would prefer Henderson too. Think he will turn out to be a much better player. Ryan isnt as good as some people like to think he is.

GunsGerms wrote:

red_stag wrote:You'd DROP Donnacha Ryan????? Seriously? For Henderson?

Honestly Stand Im biting my virtual keyboard lip in saying what I really think of that

Lets just say everyone is entitled to an opinion

I would prefer Henderson too. Think he will turn out to be a much better player. Ryan isnt as good as some people like to think he is.

I rate Ryan but he doesn't have the physicality to be a really top international lock. Certainly Henderson will be a far better player but right now I'd stick with Ryan and let Henderson cut his teeth in the backrow. I see Henderson having leapfrogged him come the RWC though.

I wish the IRFU would stop wasting time on McCarthy. He's not fit to lace Stevenson or Touhys boots let alone Hendersons.

The problem with McCarty is he doesn't know to catch a ball.

The here and now should be POC and Ryan with Henderson on the bench.
DOC and Tuohy as back up

McCarthy isn't good enough, nor is Toner, nor is Stevenson
Cullen has gone completely