Out with the old, in with the new at Edinburgh

by cp10 Tue Apr 09, 2013 1:03 pm

First topic message reminder :

Former Wasps & QPR boss appointed MD

Davies seems to have a good CV with experience in rugby. Also has experience in "building" stadiums.

It'll be interesting to hear Wasps/QPR fans view of him.

by funnyExiledScot Wed Apr 24, 2013 5:15 pm

EST - that's exactly it. If we can't attract NSQs of a sufficiently high calibre, with the potential to take us forward and form a core part of the squad, then we shouldn't bother.

1.Hislop 2.Lawrie 3.Allen 4.Gilchrist 5.MacAlpine 6.McIver 7.Watson 8.McInally 9.Kennedy 10.Leonard 11.Farndale 12.Ferguson (from Ayr) 13.Fife 14.Fleming 15.Brown

That's a team of promising young players who would struggle in the Rabo, I think we can all concede. But I'd far far rather sit in the stands and watch that XV lose and learn, than watch the likes of Lutui and Atiga struggle and also lose.

At least if the new coach had to take a serious look at those guys next season, rather than Atiga and Lutui, he'd know who can cut it at this level and who can't, and then make some NSQ signings to build a core, in the same way that Lineen did at Glasgow.

by EST Wed Apr 24, 2013 5:39 pm

I agree, fEs. Like you say, Edinburgh need to develop a core of players that want to play for Edinburgh - home grown lads, complimented with some quality NSQ players - Maitland, Strauss & Matawalu etc. I doubt the SRU will see it this way - results now will be the order of the day. In my opinion building a squad takes some pretty careful planning, a bit of luck and a couple of seasons - I want to see Edinburgh starting this process in the summer. Signing a 35 yr old bloke, on his last pay cheque......

.....a two year contract, two years picard

by Majestic83 Wed Apr 24, 2013 5:53 pm

What on earth is going on at Edinburgh!!

Having made some horrendous singings last season we seem to be doing it again!
Alex Lutui may have been a good player in the past but Worcester are letting him go for a reason and that is he is passed his best and hasn't been performing well this season.
Ross Ford is apparently joining Saracens which I think is a great move for him and Scottish rugby.
Surely the hookers fighting it out for the edinburgh jersey should have been Lawrie, Walker and Turner. Lawrie has already proved he can play at this level and also played well for Scotland A and is no youngster these days either, he must be late 20s now.
If they wanted someone with experience they should have kept Titterall who has said he wanted to stay, gets on well with the rest of the team and is a really good motivator to the other players especially in the gym and at training.
The other option would have been to go for one of the scottish qualified hookers playing in New Zealand who wouldn't have cost much like Quentin MacDonald at the blues.
A 35 year old however we shouldn't have touched with a barge poll. Not feeling confident at all about the quality of other signings we might get this summer.

by Majestic83 Wed Apr 24, 2013 5:55 pm

I agree about Damian Hoyland, he is a cracking player and is only 18 i think still. Lots of pace and really knows how to finish a try. Also seems very strong in defence and would say he would challenge for a spot in the starting line up fairly quickly. Seems very confident.

by funnyExiledScot Wed Apr 24, 2013 5:57 pm

Agreed on Titterall. I was happy to see him go until we signed this guy!

Lawrie would have been fine as first choice hooker, I've been impressed, and Walker and Turner could have backed him up, failing signing a proper top class NSQ player.

It's so wrong headed. Who made this decision, that's what I'd like to know? Were we trying to sign Alex Grove and just made a mistake with the paperwork??

by funnyExiledScot Wed Apr 24, 2013 6:16 pm

I've just heard that Nick Campbell has been released by Glasgow and is going to sign for Jersey in the Championship.

This is a grim grim day. Why on earth (if someone is going to be signing players at Edinburgh despite us not having a head coach) are Edinburgh not falling over this guy??

He has the potential to be a huge player. Big, strong, powerful and aggressive. On the limited times I've seen him play, he's looked a great prospect.

I just don't understand the SRU or Edinburgh at all.

by Imperialbigdave Wed Apr 24, 2013 6:26 pm

Im not going to jump to conclusions about Edinburgh, as we probably didnt know Glasgow were letting him go, but the SRU really shouldve told us and nudged us in the side.

by EST Wed Apr 24, 2013 6:31 pm

It's a particularly difficult one to comprehend. Good luck to the lad, I hope he proves his worth - he will come out of the championship a harder player.

As for Edinburgh and the SRU, I just don't know. They (the SRU, through the EDP program at Glasgow) have spent a good amount of time developing Campbell and physically he is the type of player that Scotland don't produce many of - and now he is deemed not good enough for either side. This hasn't been the impression I have had of him when he has been on the pitch.

Meanwhile, Edinburgh are crying out for a big ball carrying lock and have a NSQ lock in Parker who will/has been playing regularly and is arguably a worse player than the one they have just dispensed with. It is exasperating and maddening.

by AsLongAsBut100ofUs Wed Apr 24, 2013 6:33 pm

Artful_Dodger wrote:Out with the old, in with the old at Edinburgh.

by AsLongAsBut100ofUs Wed Apr 24, 2013 6:35 pm

Imperialbigdave wrote:Im not going to jump to conclusions about Edinburgh, as we probably didnt know Glasgow were letting him go, but the SRU really shouldve told us and nudged us in the side.

Murmurings of a diff of opinion with Toonie, IBD

by Majestic83 Wed Apr 24, 2013 6:41 pm

Campbell would have been ideal at Edinburgh and would have formed a great 2nd row with Gilchrist.
Last season Campbell got a fair few games at the beginning of last season for Glasgow and ended up being player of the month.
Another stupid decision by the SRU!
Who have Edinburgh got instead, Turnbull who seems to be made of porcelain and played about 5 games in the last 3 years, perry parker who isn't up to much.
Really starting to get frustrating with the goings on with Edinburgh's signings and lack of signing the right players.
If the fans can identify players that should be brought in and could easily be brought in then what are the scouts, coaches men in charge actually doing at murrayfield.

by **RDW** Wed Apr 24, 2013 6:46 pm

I've voiced my displeasure on the facebook post - feel better now! mad

by 123456789 Wed Apr 24, 2013 6:53 pm

How bad are things that at one of our only two professional teams a thiry-five year old Tongan has been signed? No disrespect to the Tongans, they've got good backs and good back-rows but this is ridiculous he's thirty-five and probably astounded anybody wanted to sign him. Edinburgh seem to want to lose games and lose fans, there's no common sense there at all, Glasgow sign players who want to win and want to win for each other, Edinburgh are just a bunch of idiots who pick up large contracts and look after their hair, look at their Twitter accounts they seem to be having much more fun than the Glasgow players who are focused and gutted after one defeat, if the Edinburgh players suffered as much as the Glasgow players do after defeats then they'd be suicidal. I think Scotland can afford to drop every Edinburgh player and still be competitive and that might give them a kick up the arse, because not only has this season been bad it's been deplorable. The SRU should release all the shoite and replace them with Scots who have wanted a pro chance and then look to bring in decent foreigners. Also this preseason, they should absolutely destroy the players, make them understand what playing professionally means because it seems that the likes of David Denton just don't care. Maybe they think that they're too good for the Rabo, but Denton had a very good chance of being a Lion and blew it with some awful performances.

by Imperialbigdave Wed Apr 24, 2013 6:58 pm

123456789 wrote:How bad are things that at one of our only two professional teams a thiry-five year old Tongan has been signed? No disrespect to the Tongans, they've got good backs and good back-rows but this is ridiculous he's thirty-five and probably astounded anybody wanted to sign him. Edinburgh seem to want to lose games and lose fans, there's no common sense there at all, Glasgow sign players who want to win and want to win for each other, Edinburgh are just a bunch of idiots who pick up large contracts and look after their hair, look at their Twitter accounts they seem to be having much more fun than the Glasgow players who are focused and gutted after one defeat, if the Edinburgh players suffered as much as the Glasgow players do after defeats then they'd be suicidal. I think Scotland can afford to drop every Edinburgh player and still be competitive and that might give them a kick up the arse, because not only has this season been bad it's been deplorable. The SRU should release all the shoite and replace them with Scots who have wanted a pro chance and then look to bring in decent foreigners. Also this preseason, they should absolutely destroy the players, make them understand what playing professionally means because it seems that the likes of David Denton just don't care. Maybe they think that they're too good for the Rabo, but Denton had a very good chance of being a Lion and blew it with some awful performances.

The problem is that by the sounds of it, they have been getting belters from the SRU. Apparently in the wake of the saracens defeat Dodson went mental at them because of that potential deal with Sky that was on the table and subsequently got dropped. Yet it hasnt done anything.

by Majestic83 Wed Apr 24, 2013 7:05 pm

Have to agree about a lot of the edinburgh players not really seeming to care that they are playing rubbish and losing all the time.
I too am on twitter and there is a total difference between the glasgow and edinburgh players.
The Edinburgh players seem to be having the time of their life, eating out at fancy restaurants, buying new flash cars etc where as the Glasgow lads seem to be focused on the rugby.
The main Edinburgh culprits seem to be Dave Denton, Tim Visser, Perry Parker, Robin Hislop & Tom Brown. None of which have had great seasons!

by **George Carlin** Wed Apr 24, 2013 7:21 pm

Seems it's out with the old, in with the 'who'?

by GLove39 Wed Apr 24, 2013 7:36 pm

RDW_Scotland wrote:I've voiced my displeasure on the facebook post - feel better now!

Nice profile pic

by 123456789 Wed Apr 24, 2013 7:40 pm

Majestic83 wrote:Have to agree about a lot of the edinburgh players not really seeming to care that they are playing rubbish and losing all the time.
I too am on twitter and there is a total difference between the glasgow and edinburgh players.
The Edinburgh players seem to be having the time of their life, eating out at fancy restaurants, buying new flash cars etc where as the Glasgow lads seem to be focused on the rugby.
The main Edinburgh culprits seem to be Dave Denton, Tim Visser, Perry Parker, Robin Hislop & Tom Brown. None of which have had great seasons!

Robin Hislop - if he was paid in relation to his performances he'd be lucky to afford a second hand tricycle and a happy meal mad

by EST Wed Apr 24, 2013 7:52 pm

Yup, an all round bad day at the office for Scottish rugby. Lets hope they get in a coach ASAP to sort this situation out.

by RuggerRadge2611 Wed Apr 24, 2013 7:58 pm

I liked your comment RDW. Hope that helps!

by VinceWLB Wed Apr 24, 2013 9:48 pm

Nick Campbell isn't remotely as good as some comments here are making him out to be, he looked really soft the few times i have seen him. There is a reason why Eddie was above him in the pecking order.

Lutui's signing doesn't inspire a lot of confidence in the recruitment policy i'm afraid.
Ford will be a huge loss, the power he brings to an otherwise very weak pack can't be overlooked.

by Majestic83 Wed Apr 24, 2013 10:00 pm

so far 8 players are confirmed as leaving

Chunk
Titterall
Talai
Rees
King
Sepp Visser
Mike Penn
John Houston

With 2 arriving in Nikki Walker and Lutui

Who would people like to see brought in as replacements for the others?

for me

Chunks replacement would either go for Dickinson again, not many available scottish lose heads. Dickinson is actually ok when he plays purely at 1 and can hold his own in the scrum. I would prefer Grant Shiels but he won't be leaving the Falcons. A couple of overseas options i'd consider would be Jamie MacIntosh from the Highlanders and is capped by the All Blacks. Regular captain for them but Tony Woodcock is keeping him out the starting line up so might be keen to move.

To replace Talai there are lots of options available to Edinburgh, hopefully they chose the right one, for me some of the best options would be giving Richie McIver a shot, going for either Lachlan McCaffrey or Angus Cottrell from the Western force, both are either 6 or 8s and big ball carriers and are both scottish qualified. A few options from South Africa are Michael Rhodes from the lions who is on loan at the stormers, a very big 6 or 8 and can play lock, Warren Whiteley from the lions who is also a 6 or 8 and very physical.

Rees they don't need to replace, got laidlaw, kennedy, hidalgo-clyne, leck and Black. I'd use them in that order with Kennedy really pushing laidlaw.

To replace James King I would bring in Robbie Fergusson from Ayr, not the biggest but a very skillful and strong running player. Been very impressed by him for the last couple years, reminds me a little of James O'Connor the way he jinks and passes.

Sepp and mike penn only really need to bring in one winger and I would go for Damien Hoyland and give him a chance, he has looked electric this season and looks a far more mature player than 18 years old. Get him in the squad early instead of waiting till he is in his early 20s like the sru often do and waste them.

For John Houston I would possibly go for someone like Charlie Ngatai who is currently at the Chiefs and was with the Hurricanes. Cracking player but been unfortunate not to get more game time as been stuck behind world class players. Won the world cup with nz u20s a couple years ago, can play 12,13 and 15 and is very physical but like to play a wide game too. I know his cousin from having played in the same team as him a couple years ago and he said Charlie would be up for moving to play in Scotland.
If not another player who i have been impressed by is Tim Bateman of the hurricanes.

by **RDW** Wed Apr 24, 2013 10:11 pm

Maj - need to get you on the sru scouting network!

by Majestic83 Wed Apr 24, 2013 10:12 pm

If any one has the contacts to get me in there on the scouting network feel free to put my name forward Very Happy

by VinceWLB Wed Apr 24, 2013 10:27 pm

Edinburgh should not look for a loosehead that "just hold his own", loosehead are meant to put the opposition Tighthead under some sort of pressure, remember it's 2 vs 1... In that respect Dickinson would be a terrible signing.

They should be looking at strong scrummagers like Paul James or Ayerza Or Welsh.

by EST Wed Apr 24, 2013 10:29 pm

VinceWLB wrote:Nick Campbell isn't remotely as good as some comments here are making him out to be, he looked really soft the few times i have seen him. There is a reason why Eddie was above him in the pecking order.

Lutui's signing doesn't inspire a lot of confidence in the recruitment policy i'm afraid.
Ford will be a huge loss, the power he brings to an otherwise very weak pack can't be overlooked.

Whenever I have seen him I have always thought he looks promising, but obviously the powers that be don't think so. Hopefully he will return from the championship a better player - if he is soft he will get found out there, for sure.

by Majestic83 Wed Apr 24, 2013 10:47 pm

VinceWLB wrote:Edinburgh should not look for a loosehead that "just hold his own", loosehead are meant to put the opposition Tighthead under some sort of pressure, remember it's 2 vs 1... In that respect Dickinson would be a terrible signing.

They should be looking at strong scrummagers like Paul James or Ayerza Or Welsh.

Holds his own is not a negative thing, a lot of looseheads get pushed back easily and disrupted by a big strong tighthead. Dickinson gets that done to him when he plays 3 but as a 1 he is very solid and does attack the tighthead. Still might not be the best loosehead ever but is one of the best options edinburgh will have available to him.
No doubt edinburgh would love Ayerza or welsh but neither would are realistic signings...Paul James on the other hand i doubt they'd be fussed by!

by **RDW** Wed Apr 24, 2013 10:53 pm

I'd be more than happy with Dickinson given what our realistic alternatives are

by Imperialbigdave Wed Apr 24, 2013 11:10 pm

RDW_Scotland wrote:I'd be more than happy with Dickinson

If theres anybody out there whos wondering just how bad Edinburghs season has been, this sentence speaks a thousand words.

by **RDW** Wed Apr 24, 2013 11:14 pm

Let's face it he's no world beater but he'd do a decent job for us and are likely alternatives are more journeymen foreigners.

When playing lh he did ok for Scotland - most of hos woes came when he was forced into th

by Majestic83 Wed Apr 24, 2013 11:18 pm

To be fair to Dicko he did well for Edinburgh when he was there before and played loosehead, he had a successful period at Gloucester. For Scotland he has done well when played at loosehead but too often he has had to play at tighthead which is a totally different position and a position he is not good at.
Better than some of the props Edinburgh have had in the past few seasons!!

I always thought he might possibly have been better suited to playing hooker, surprised no one ever tried him out there!

by EST Wed Apr 24, 2013 11:42 pm

Experienced, Scottish, do a good job at Rabo level at LH - I would take him in a flash.

by funnyExiledScot Thu Apr 25, 2013 10:30 am

Some harsh words being said about Dickinson here. I've seen him quite a few times for Sale this season and he's playing really well. Yes, he isn't a destructive loosehead, but technically he's very good, binds well and gets into a really good low position. In the loose he's very good indeed, and lifts well at the lineout. He also knows the club well, and shouldn't cost us a huge amount in wages.

The reason most people don't rate him is that Hadden and Robinson often used him on the bench when only one prop was allowed as cover, and if our tighthead got injured, Dickinson had to do a job covering, and was often hammered in that role (not his position). He's no world beater, but a far better prop than most will give him credit for in the scrum, and in the loose he's one of the best and most hard working.

Hard work, that's something we haven't seen much of this season at Murrayfield, other than my jaw taking on the food from Pimp My Burger.....

He'd be a very good signing.

Personally I'd move Yapp on, and sign a project player from the SH (a Nel equivalent) as well as Dickinson, and have Hislop for cover.

by Kingshu Thu Apr 25, 2013 11:12 am

Do Edinburgh fans think there would is much rebuilding to be done?

Personally I think that the Edinburgh squad is pretty good, (good enough to challange for a top 6 place), it was coaching was the issue.

Bradley wasn't much liked by Connacht fans, who thought he was making a poor team play worse, (can't say all the improvement in Connacht was due to Elwood, as IRFU increased funds etc at same time) and has proved to be not much respected by Edinburgh fans now as well.

For me the new coaching team is the most important part, get that right and Edinburgh will imporve a lot next season. They have a good first XV and decent squad.

Tom Heathcote would be a fine addition.

However I've said on other threads I think Edinburgh will do better next year, (really are better than 3rd last), they will find it difficult, as Cardiff Blues, Connacht look to be improving for next year. Treviso may make the next step as well, so for Edinburgh to push up the table will take a lot of hard work.

by funnyExiledScot Thu Apr 25, 2013 11:32 am

I agree to a degree, getting the right head coach is the absolute priority. Someone of the calibre of Steve Meehan would be fantastic.

There isn't much wrong with the Edinburgh XV, it's certainly good enough to improve on 3rd last, as you say.

With no further signings, and no injuries, Edinburgh could field the following next season (assuming no-one else leaves):

1.Yapp 2.Ford 3.Nel 4.Gilchrist 5.Cox 6.McInally 7.Rennie 8.Denton 9.Laidlaw 10.Leonard 11.Visser 12.Scott 13.NDL 14.Walker 15.Tonks

That team in my view should be mid-table.

The "rebuilding" for me is more to remove overpaid NSQs from the squad, and replace with either project players (i.e. current NSQs who could qualify in 3 years), or young Scottish players. Every single member of the squad should have a purpose, either as an established member of the XV, or a player with potential to be an established member of the XV. In each case, with potential hopefully to play for Scotland.

There is too much dead wood in the squad, and in my view it's damaging morale. The squad currently doesn't know what it's for. The team doesn't have a particular playing style (other than confused), and there's no general squad culture or ethos. Edinburgh lost pretty much every tight game this season. When the chips were down, Edinburgh lost, often with a whimper.

Getting the right head coach, to set the tone, is going to be key.

by Imperialbigdave Thu Apr 25, 2013 3:02 pm

To clarify, im not saying Dickinson would be a bad signing all things considering, but at the end of last season would we have been looking at him? I think not.

by funnyExiledScot Thu Apr 25, 2013 3:06 pm

IBD - do you really think John Yapp is a better player? I don't.

Last year we were in a better position, as we weren't losing Chunk. I do see what you're saying, our aspirations last year were higher given our HC run. Whilst I think that's understandable, we can now be in no doubt that the HC run was no genuine indicator of the strength of our team or squad.

So far we have John Yapp and Robin Hislop as our options at loosehead for next season. That is not good enough.

by **RDW** Thu Apr 25, 2013 3:11 pm

Don’t quite share you enthusiasm for the strength of our current squad FES! I think we’re mid to low table just now, and will struggle to be anything better. For me we need one good LH, hooker, 2nd row and stand off to really be able to improve.

The other thing to note is the difference in strength in depth between us and Glasgow – they can field at least 2 players in most positions without a drop in quality – I’d say there’s only 3 or 4 positions we could do that (tighthead, 6/8, fullback at a push).

by funnyExiledScot Thu Apr 25, 2013 3:20 pm

RDW_Scotland wrote:Don’t quite share you enthusiasm for the strength of our current squad FES! I think we’re mid to low table just now, and will struggle to be anything better. For me we need one good LH, hooker, 2nd row and stand off to really be able to improve.

The other thing to note is the difference in strength in depth between us and Glasgow – they can field at least 2 players in most positions without a drop in quality – I’d say there’s only 3 or 4 positions we could do that (tighthead, 6/8, fullback at a push).

I was talking about our XV, not our squad. I entirely agree with your second paragraph. If you assume my 1st XV noted above is correct, our second XV looks like this:

1.Hislop 2.Lawrie 3.Cross 4.Parker 5.VDW 6.Basilia 7.Watson 8.Grant 9.Kennedy 10.Francis 11.Jones 12.Atiga 13.Cairns 14.Fife 15.Brown

I think the Zebre's could probably put out a better 2nd string.

That's the issue. No international call-ups and no injuries and I think Edinburgh are mid-table. It's when you scratch below the surface that it's easy to see why we're the 3rd worst team in the league, and a basket case in Europe.

by VinceWLB Thu Apr 25, 2013 9:47 pm

I think we will find out VDW is a very good player, a proper pre season and he will be 1st choice lock with Gilchrist, pushing Cox (if he re-sign) on the bench.

Loosehead is a big problem, so is 6/8 depending if Denton moves to 8, don't really rate Mcinally, i think like Cox he is only a good squad player.

by **RDW** Thu Apr 25, 2013 10:06 pm

Yeah I've still got high hopes for vdv - it's a real shame we couldn't get him across at the same time as nel

by CraigS1874 Fri Apr 26, 2013 12:14 am

damian hoyland is a good player, very fast but prior to his injury farndale was much better so that is promising. Dont know why we are signing 35 year olds but it is edinburgh so i have come to expect that.

I would like to see us sign chris auld or robbie fergusson this year as both would be good cover in the backs, personally i also think glashan should be playing 15s and training with edinburgh rather than not getting selected for the 7s team.
We need to spend money this year to buy in some strong players from the S15 otherwise crowds will start to fall.

by Imperialbigdave Fri Apr 26, 2013 3:59 pm

Well, we dont have to worry about the players motivation anymore! The most commited player each season will now win a cast of Chunks ear. I predict a 73% increase in performance with this news.

by Pat_Mustard Fri Apr 26, 2013 4:08 pm

this is actually genuine, it's not the first of April or anything! What a totally bizarre idea!

by GLove39 Fri Apr 26, 2013 4:34 pm

I love this idea! Think how great a mould of Chunks ear will look on a players mantelpiece!

by InjuredYetAgain Fri Apr 26, 2013 7:38 pm

I wouldn't be too surprised if there is a big name (or two) signing coming up. If Ford goes, Jacobsen retires etc, there will be a big reduction in the salary bill

by actionman Fri Apr 26, 2013 8:53 pm

InjuredYetAgain wrote:I wouldn't be too surprised if there is a big name (or two) signing coming up. If Ford goes, Jacobsen retires etc, there will be a big reduction in the salary bill

Wonder if they will be Foreigners or poor Scotsmen that cant get clubs ?

by Imperialbigdave Sat Apr 27, 2013 5:45 pm

Hawick have just won promotion to prem1 with a 39-38 win over DHSFP. Dundee had three pushover penalty tries plus Richie Mciver scored one and set up another off a scrum pick up, but Hawicks running game was on fire, led by none other than Rory Hutton.

If Hawick could actually field 8 forwards, they would become a force again in scottish rugby, but if theyre getting mullered up front by Dundee, theyre in for a tough time next season.

by **George Carlin** Sat Apr 27, 2013 6:07 pm

Has anyone heard any more chat about Ford and Sarries? Have been a bit out of the loop this past week.

by Pat_Mustard Mon Apr 29, 2013 4:25 pm

Ben Cairns is being given the chance to continue his recovery at Edinburgh and potentially earn a new contract. Seems a sensible way to go about things in the circumstances.
http://www.edinburghrugby.org/news/13/04/29/club-care-cairns

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