Lancaster's 2012 Summer Bolters - What might we see in 2013?

For the summer tour of South Africa last year, Stuart Lancaster took 14 uncapped players. Before reviewing which uncapped players may be going to Argentina this summer, lets just look at the progress, or lack of, made by last year's uncapped bunch.

Tom Youngs
Quite possibly the most controversial selection at the time having not started a single premiership match at hooker. Youngs shared the midweek duties with fellow bolter Joe Gray. A good start to the premiership season with Leicester plus injury to Dylan Hartley saw him earn his first cap against Fiji in the autumn. Intermittent issues with his throwing, and concerns over his short stature have been counterbalanced by his all action approach. An outside chance of touring with the Lions, Tom Youngs has started 8 of the 9 internationals since the summer tour and has shown just why Lancaster took a risk on him..

Joe Gray
As stated above, shared midweek duties with Youngs. Whilst he seems to have firmly established himself as first choice at Quins this season (starting 18 of 20 premiership matches) and featured for the Saxons, Quins fans have started to call for him to be replaced by Rob Buchanan.

Joe Marler
Made his test debut on the Summer tour, featuring in all 3 matches. While he has yet to bring his all action game to the test arena, he has still managed to earn 10 caps. He is still learning his craft and will face major competition for further caps from Alex Cobisiero and Mako Vunipola, but we can expect to see him well in the mix as we head towards RWC 2015.

Rupert Harden
Replaced the injured Matt Stevens ahead of departure to SA, was on the bench for the midweek games. Injury denied him the chance to feature for the Saxons this season, while a further injury in March is probably season ending.

Graham Kitchener
Another controversial decision, Kitchener has looked very good at Tigers this season for whom he has made 16 starts in AP and HEC this season. He appeared in both Saxons matches this season to remain very much in Lancaster's plans, yet as the climax of the season approaches may have been overtaken by Ed Slater.

Joe Launchbury
Flew out to South Africa with the squad, but was unable to recover from a knee injury sustained during pre-tour training and was replaced by Jamie Gibson. Made his test debut off the bench against Fiji and a further bench appearance against Australia before making his full debut against SA. 6 further starts have followed, and he was one of England's best players in the 6Ns. Another with an outside chance of making the Lions tour.

George Robson
The fourth uncapped 2nd row to go on tour, he captained the midweek team and played in both Saxons matches this season. Still young enough to make a test debut you just get the feeling that he is unlikely to ever feature prominently for England.

Thomas Waldrom
Made his debut from the bench against SA before securing the starting berth for the 3rd (drawn) test. Two more starts in the first two AIs have since been followed by a solitary bench appearance against Italy. A figure of fun and almost universally despised by England fans, he is also a cult hero at Welford Rd. You woul dthink he is unlikely to feature heavily in Lancaster's future plans.

Carl Fearns
Despite looking not quite fit ( an accusation that could be levelled at several up and coming back row forwards) he made a promising impression in the mid-week matches. Injuries and doubts over his best position continue to slow the expected development. He will hope to be going to South america, but the rise of players like Kruis, Fraser, Wallace and Billy Vunipola will mean he needs a strong close to the season.

Tom Johnson
5 consecutive starts beginning with the 1st test in SA were reward for slogging his way through the junior levels. Unlikely to feature much in the future.

Jonathan Joseph
The young centre appeared in all 3 tests in SA, initially from the bench. A 4th cap as a replacement in the win over NZ was his last appearance in the white of England. Career has faltered in 2013 with most of his appearances at FB since turn of the year and no starts for a couple of months. He will hope that the move to Bath revitalises things, and that Lancaster has not forgotten him.

George Lowe
Appeared on the wing in one midweek match, he will have been disappointed in the way his 12/13 season has panned out. Injuries and iffy form have seen him make just 9 starts for Quins in 27 AP/HEC matches.

Christian Wade
Looked good on attack in the midweek games, notching a hat-trick in the first. Lancaster and Farrell may have taken more notice of his defensive naivety. The England management's pre-occupation with defence has as yet seen this fine talent fail to gain a cap. Hopefully that will be rectified this Summer - unless he goes to Australia.

Alex Goode
Coming off the bench in the 2nd test to replace the unfortunate Mike Brown, he has started every test for England since. An intelligent footballer, he has divided fans opinion since. Mike Brown, perhaps the best FB in the AP over the last two years, has had to move to the wing - a move that many are not happy with. Ironic really but it may be that Goode does not quite have the pace needed to thrive at international level. Continued strong performances for Sarries will see him in the England team for some time to come however.


Jonny May and Jamie Gibson were two further uncapped players called up during the tour.


Summary
Of the 14 uncapped players to tour SA, 5 made test appearances on that tour and another 2 were capped first in the AIs. Four of them have become regulars for England since then. Most notably with Youngs and Launchbury, Lancaster has shown that he is not scared of trusting inexperienced players. He does however seem to prefer defensive shape over attacking flair. Some of these guys have clearly slipped down the pecking order - and may struggle to make this summers tour.


2013 summer Tour Wildcards
My predictions as to some of the uncapped faces we can expect to see in South America:

Henry Thomas
The young Sale tighthead would have been favoured to tour even without the injury to Harden. He trained with the EPS this season and with cole probably Australia bound should be challenging David Wilson for the test berth.

Ed Slater
Has spent much of the season behind Kitchener at Tigers, but recent performances have moved him right into the spotlight. Both tigers young guns may travel.

George Kruis
Capable of playing second row and back row, the sort of player Lancaster likes. Main problem will be to secure a starting berth at Sarries, though that did not prevent Lancaster taking risks with Youngs and Kitchener last year.

Calum Clark
A Lancaster favourite. If fit he will travel.

Matt Kvesic
Covers 8 and 7 with equal applomb. Has moved ahead of Carl Fearns and will probably travel.

Will Fraser
Fantastic season for Sarries. Probably tourist irrelevant of Gatland's selections.

George Ford
Not been a good season for the young man, but with Owen Farrell probably on the way to Australia can expect to tour.

Kyle Eastmond & Joel Tomkins
At least one, and probably both of these former RL stars will tour.

Jonny May
Offers real pace. Shone in his replacement midweek appearance last year. Will be joined by fellow speedster Wade if he does not become a Lion.

Elliot Daly
Was left out of the JWC last summer for strength and conditioning training. Is he a centre or a FB. Not sure though England seem to see him as a FB. Pace, big boot, good hands and an eye for the gap. Could be a real star in the making.

Great stuff there LT and pretty much agree with the lot.

I have a suspicion we could see a midfield of Twelvetrees and Tomkins which could be quite a physical yet also skillful combo.

Big Ed has got to go he's been excellent. Says little does much. Comparisons to Corry are being drawn but he's bigger and faster. England don't have much in terms of enforcer options (neither do the Lions...) and if he doesn't go you'd have to think we're missing a trick.

Wade will be ripping it up this summer, the chaos he caused to Leinster was a joy to behold and if he isn't in Oz then he has to be in Argentina.

I think we'll see Burns and Flood as the 10s. Hope Allen gets a go he's in top form at the minute.

Good article
On the subject of wade he went off early at the weekend,was it just a knock or is he injured?

From where I was sat, looked more precautionary than anything.

Whats Slaters stats...is he around 6'6 and 18st?

Whats happended to James Short at Sarries.

Also LT what about your guy Thompstone...hes had a good season hasnt he...scored tries...big lump of a lad. Could he go?

Does Kvesic really cover 8 well too? Great future option if that is the case, if nothing else then as a bench guy

Ed is 6 foot 6 and 18 and a half stone I think. Big boy with that turn of pace as well.

Cracking article LT, thanks. A great mornig read.

Agree with all the sentiments being thrown around already, especially regarding Slater, who has been immense. Held his own against a great Toulon pack too.

Kveisc really excites me, for his carrying more than anything else. He's aggressive in the run, and actually looks to smash through defenders. From what I've seen, he uses his non-carrying forearm like barrier, smashing defenders out the way. Reminds me a little of Filo Tiatia when he played at the Ospreys. England simply haven't got a carrier like that at the moment.

Wade has to tour, no doubt. May too.

Would love to see a 12T and Joseph centre pairing, but i'm in two minds as to whether Jospeh will even tour.

Tom Lindsay is a player I'd like to see involved this summer with England. Lancaster just cannot ignore a hooker of his talent in the loose, albeit that his lineout throwing still needs work. I think England should also get Dave Attwood back involved.

1.Corbisiero 2.Lindsay 3.Thomas 4.Kruis 5.Slater 6.Croft 7.Fraser 8.Morgan 9.Simpson 10.Burns 11.Wade 12.Twelvetrees 13.Joseph 14.May 15.Goode

16.Wilson 17.Youngs 18.Marler 19.Attwood 20.Vunipola 21.Wigglesworth 22.Flood 23.Tomkins

Some great options for Lancaster this summer.

FeS, agree about Lindsay and Attwood too. Attwood's got the grunt that no other lock other than Slater is offering at the moment.

Lindsay is just a complete handful. Iwatched him for some time now, but he really seems to be using his bulk around the park now. If only he could get his throwing good!

It always baffles me how hard some hookers made throwing look, particularly given that by its very nature, it's something you can so easily practice.

It will be tough for Joseph to win selection when he isn't playing for LI. Centres selection will depend to a degree on whether any go to Australia.

Tuilagi, Barritt and 36 are currently at the front of the queue for England, but all have a chance of going with the Lions.

Lowe, Allen, JTH & Joseph all toured SA last summer. Strong chance none will tour Argentina.

Tomkins, Eastmond, Trinder & Daly could all be in the mix.

Is Ben Botica english qualified?He could be in with an outside shout as a 10.

Good article LT!

It could be argued that the new players from last year fell into 2 camps; the youngsters who SL knew previously and rated, and those older players who had strong domestic seasons. Since then the older players seem to have been phased out, so we may see the same again with some players as a bit of a stop-gap?

Can't really argue with any of your new picks for this year. I hope that in the back row in particular, a couple of English players get the Lions call up, as I really want to see what the younger guys can do. In the same way, Tuliagi going would be a blessing in many ways as it will allow new players to be brought in as well as forcing the coaches to come up with a backs move, rather than just passing to him and hoping.


I'd like to see Attwood and Slater get game time in Argentina, light and mobile is all very well but a bit of grunt can be useful, as we saw against Wales!

Tweelvetrees and Tomkins could be an interesting centre partnership, there would certainly be plenty of offloading opportunities for the wings to pick up on.

beshocked wrote:Is Ben Botica english qualified?He could be in with an outside shout as a 10.

There has been some talk that he may have a british passport. However whether true or not, he does not meet the IRB qualification criteria, and would have to serve residency.

LondonTiger wrote:

beshocked wrote:Is Ben Botica english qualified?He could be in with an outside shout as a 10.

There has been some talk that he may have a british passport. However whether true or not, he does not meet the IRB qualification criteria, and would have to serve residency.

Oh right. I was impressed by how he turned Quin's fortunes vs Bath on the weekend.

It's interesting how centre partnerships can make such a difference to a team's attack.

I think Gloucester's backs have been hampered by playing Tindall at 13 recently.

Hopper at 12 was not as threatening as Botica there.

Tomkins has been helping his wingers a lot recently. Giving that nice last pass or offload.

The real question is who will go on the Lions tour.

I really honestly cant see a huge amount.

Robshaw, Cole, Tuilagi, i would say are definates. Corbs if he was fit.
Wade as a wild card.

The rest are just possibles:
Farrell, Flood, Launchbury, Tom Youngs, Danny Care, Ben Youngs, Ashton, Tom Croft, Barritt, Parling, Hartley.

I dont see Marler or Vunipola or Twelvetrees anyone like that going.

If only a few go, then it may mean not many newbies come in...unless as has been suggested Lancs is going to take a very raw team and let his senior EPS'ers have a summer off...

How about:

1 Vunipola / Marler
2 Youngs
3 Wilson
4 Launchbury
5 Slater
6 Croft
7 Kvesic
8 Morgan

9 Care / Youngs
10 Flood
11 Foden
12 Twelvetrees
13 Tomkins
14 May
15 Brown

Though im not his biggest fan...having Croft at 6 means we can go with Launchbury and Slater in the engine room which could be a powerful athletic combo.
And i think Wade will go with the Lions, so May gets a chance to impress..

Geordiefalcon I think Fraser will start at 7. Having the HC shop window really helps.

You think Wade will go on the Lions?

My team would be

1.Vunipola
2.T.Youngs
3.Thomas
4.Launchbury
5.Slater
6.Wood
7.Fraser
8.Morgan

9.Care
10.Flood
11.Strettle
12.36
13.Tomkins
14.Wade
15.Brown

Doesn't Wade play on the left wing Beshocked? Hopefully he'll go with the Lions, but if he doesn't, I'd go with Wade on the left and May on the right. I know Strettle is coming into some form, and played a stormer at the weekend, but I really rate May.

Another winger not often mentioned on here is Tom Biggs. Good player that, and once Bath ditch the completely average Donald from the 10 jersey, and install Joseph at 13, I think we'll see Biggs really push on.

Agree that Tomkins should tour. I've been impressed with his development this season, although I'd like to see JJ go as well.

Also agree that Fraser will tour. Nice battle between him an Kvesic for the 7 jersey with Robshaw and Wood likely to tour with the Lions in my view.

I'd look for something like

Vunipola
Youngs
Wilson / Thomas (Need Wilson's scrummaging against the Argies, especially with Mako at LH)
Attwood
Slater / Launchbury
Croft / Fearns (Think Wood should tour Oz)
Kvesic / Fraser
Morgan / Vunipola

Care / K Dickson
Burns / Flood
Foden - need a solid defender and kicker to counteract Wade
36
Daly - defence needs work, but consistent form and electric pace
Wade / May - pretty much as above!
Brown / Goode - please keep Brown on the wing

funnyExiledScot wrote:Doesn't Wade play on the left wing Beshocked? Hopefully he'll go with the Lions, but if he doesn't, I'd go with Wade on the left and May on the right. I know Strettle is coming into some form, and played a stormer at the weekend, but I really rate May.

Another winger not often mentioned on here is Tom Biggs. Good player that, and once Bath ditch the completely average Donald from the 10 jersey, and install Joseph at 13, I think we'll see Biggs really push on.

Agree that Tomkins should tour. I've been impressed with his development this season, although I'd like to see JJ go as well.

Also agree that Fraser will tour. Nice battle between him an Kvesic for the 7 jersey with Robshaw and Wood likely to tour with the Lions in my view.

Biggs and Joseph were 2 guys I wanted to include, but thought I'd get panned for being biased! Think both of them and Eastmond should be in the touring squad though. Joseph been pretty average this year, Eastmond slips of some tackles, but Biggs is so consistent as a threat in attack and a brilliant defender

Nick Cain's article on what Lancaster needs to do in The Rugby Paper is pretty good imho;

http://www.therugbypaper.co.uk/features/columnists/nick-cain/8445/nick-cain-change-now-or-else/

Nick Cain wrote:1. Build a Power Pack

England’s front five is mobile but underpowered against the big beasts fielded by teams like Wales, South Africa, and a full-strength Australia. The scrum is not solid on its own put-in, or disruptive on the opposition’s, and the lineout return was the lowest in the tournament. Mako Vunipola has to get fitter, and they need another tighthead to challenge Dan Cole, who was rarely dominant. Lancaster has to find a Bakkies Botha-style big unit like Dave Attwood, to pack alongside either Joe Launchbury, or Geoff Parling, or Courtney Lawes. A pairing of two athlete locks has helped England’s breakdown, but leaves them light in the tight.

2. Find a True No.7

Like everyone, Lancaster has great regard for Chris Robshaw, but England must fast-track a horrible, quick, streetwise No.7 for 2015 before it’s too late. The Six Nations captain cannot be faulted for attitude, commitment, work-rate, tackle-count, or a good pair of hands. But the Test arena is ruthless, and the evidence from Cardiff is that Robshaw must fight it out with Tom Wood and Tom Croft for the No.6 shirt. Robshaw is not a destructive ball-winning fetcher, and, even though the English forwards were on the back foot, he does not have the speed to do what Justin Tipuric does for Wales.

3. Pick backs with Pace

Brad Barritt is the Robshaw of the backline, but picking him in a line-up which also includes his Saracens buddies Owen Farrell and Alex Goode, leaves England short of pace and creativity. Nor is Barritt a foil for similarly crash-bang Manu Tuilagi. After impressing against the Scots, Billy Twelvetrees deserved another start against Italy to see if he could provide a spark inside Tuilagi, freeing him from the burden of being England’s sole attacking carrier. A back three containing two full-backs, neither of whom are wing-fast, compounds the lack of Cuthbert-style strike speed, and there was a strong case for May and Wade coming in for Ashton and Goode well before the second-half debacle unfolded at the Millennium Stadium.

beshocked wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:

beshocked wrote:Is Ben Botica english qualified?He could be in with an outside shout as a 10.

There has been some talk that he may have a british passport. However whether true or not, he does not meet the IRB qualification criteria, and would have to serve residency.

Oh right. I was impressed by how he turned Quin's fortunes vs Bath on the weekend.

It's interesting how centre partnerships can make such a difference to a team's attack.

I think Gloucester's backs have been hampered by playing Tindall at 13 recently.

Hopper at 12 was not as threatening as Botica there.

Tomkins has been helping his wingers a lot recently. Giving that nice last pass or offload.

What I like specifically about Tomkins recent form is that he seems to me to be improving at a steady rate game on game. That I feel is crucial to his long-term game. Sarries have done a superb job with him and his understanding and awareness of both the game and what he can add at times has come on immesurably. I have to say all credit to Sarries to sticking with him and giving him the game time. His game v Leicester a few weeks ago in the AP was his coming of age I feel.

I'm certain Tomkins will tour and is favourite to start at 13. The only issue I have with that is that the favourite out there for the 12 shirt is 36. I don't think Barritt will be a Lion but Lancs has already said he wants to take a development team not players he already knows about. A midfield of 36 and Tomkins may just lack a bit of pace but have some good distribution and off-loading.

How about a midfield of 12. K Eastmond 13. J Tomkins - that could work very well and Eastmond has really impressed me in flashes. He's still raw and needs time in that slot but I think he could mature really well.

Alternatively I wouldn't mind seeing 12. B Twelvetrees 13. H Trinder that would have pace and vision plus a double kicking threat. Options options options.

Mawhis

If you go through this and the other thread on the Argentina tour..i think you'll find thats exactly what we're all saying.

We need to find some large nasty in the pack.
Look and Kvesic and Fraser
And need to pick the best backs in their correct position.

PS Beshocked

Yeah i just have that sneaky feeling about Wade and the Lions.

We have big skillful power backs , but he offers something completely different that x-factor of creating something from nothing.

If i was Gatland id be willing to take the chance on him...he could be invaluable coming off the bench in the last 20 mins etc...

Bathite wrote:

funnyExiledScot wrote:
Another winger not often mentioned on here is Tom Biggs. Good player that, and once Bath ditch the completely average Donald from the 10 jersey, and install Joseph at 13, I think we'll see Biggs really push on.

Agree that Tomkins should tour. I've been impressed with his development this season, although I'd like to see JJ go as well.

Biggs and Joseph were 2 guys I wanted to include, but thought I'd get panned for being biased! Think both of them and Eastmond should be in the touring squad though. Joseph been pretty average this year, Eastmond slips of some tackles, but Biggs is so consistent as a threat in attack and a brilliant defender

Biggs has been consistently good for some time now. I'm not yet entirely sold on Eastmond in the centres though. Great attacking game, but needs to work on other things before international rugby, his tackling and kicking in particular.

Joseph has been one of the big disappointments this season for me. I tipped him last summer as a Lions bolter. He's so talented, great balance, loads of pace with a nice offload and distribution skillset. A real shame his season has fallen away. If Bath can ditch Donald and get either Ford or Heathcote in the 10 jersey, keep hold of Stringer, and work Eastmond and Joseph together in the centres, with Biggs, Banahan and Abendannon in the back three, then you're back in business next season, challenging for a play-off spot. Not at the level of Leicester or Sarries, but challenging for the other two spots.

Henry Thomas
Attwood

and is Julian Salvi EQ?
I know he's an aussie and i dont care.
Will be next year?

Triangulation wrote:Henry Thomas
Attwood

and is Julian Salvi EQ?
I know he's an aussie and i dont care.
Will be next year?

Pretty sure he has played for Either Australia A or their 7s team.

Edit: From tigers profile:

A former Australia Schools and Under-21s captain, he represented Australia ‘A’ in two IRB Pacific Nations Cup campaigns.

funnyExiledScot wrote:

Bathite wrote:

funnyExiledScot wrote:
Another winger not often mentioned on here is Tom Biggs. Good player that, and once Bath ditch the completely average Donald from the 10 jersey, and install Joseph at 13, I think we'll see Biggs really push on.

Agree that Tomkins should tour. I've been impressed with his development this season, although I'd like to see JJ go as well.

Biggs and Joseph were 2 guys I wanted to include, but thought I'd get panned for being biased! Think both of them and Eastmond should be in the touring squad though. Joseph been pretty average this year, Eastmond slips of some tackles, but Biggs is so consistent as a threat in attack and a brilliant defender

Biggs has been consistently good for some time now. I'm not yet entirely sold on Eastmond in the centres though. Great attacking game, but needs to work on other things before international rugby, his tackling and kicking in particular.

Joseph has been one of the big disappointments this season for me. I tipped him last summer as a Lions bolter. He's so talented, great balance, loads of pace with a nice offload and distribution skillset. A real shame his season has fallen away. If Bath can ditch Donald and get either Ford or Heathcote in the 10 jersey, keep hold of Stringer, and work Eastmond and Joseph together in the centres, with Biggs, Banahan and Abendannon in the back three, then you're back in business next season, challenging for a play-off spot. Not at the level of Leicester or Sarries, but challenging for the other two spots.

Donald is ditched to Japan, Stringer is signed up for next year. Ford remains unofficial and we're a 9 short, back yeah, should be back in the top 4 mix, if you add in the likes of Houston and Orlandi adding power up front and a full season of Webber and Fearns, the team looks ok.

Botica is EQ i think.

IF not now then after next season

Triangulation wrote:Botica is EQ i think.

IF not now then after next season

No more poaching - please no more poaching!

mawhis wrote:

Triangulation wrote:Botica is EQ i think.

IF not now then after next season

No more poaching - please no more poaching!

Poaching implies kidnapp or theft. But it isnt that if the player qualifies and declares for England is it now, eh?

No it is not.

I can't think of a single good reason why England should limit herself to playing a stricter set of qualification rules to the rest of the international sides out there.

If the rules are altered then so be it.

Change the rules or bottle it i say!

I really wouldn't want to see Clark get taken on the summer tour, not just because of his previous antics but because he's been average when ever he's played and has missed a huge amount of the season.

Lindsay really can't tour yet, he can not throw for toffee and is part of a dire scrum, like Quins Joe Gray I just don't think he has the needed stature for International rugby, especially as Youngs gets complaints about his power at the moment.

Tomkins, Wade and May should all tour and play in a backline together. Eastmond at 12 would be horribe, like Hopper at 12 for Quins he'd just waste the ball and slow down attacks. Get 36 in there.

Kitchener will likely miss out as there's now Slater, Attwood, Cannon, Launchberry, Mathews and Kruis who all start regularly for their clubs to choose before him.

London Tiger, bravo on the article, it's the best i've read in a while on here.

I don't normally join in these debates on speculation.

The most spectacular bolters I've seen this year are Tom Biggs and Ed Slater.

I would prefer to see Dan Cole not to tour anywhere. He's that important to England, a sneaky Fergy/Giggs-type injury would not go amiss at this point in the RWC cycle.

Yappy, has Matthews been starting for Quins. He's been mentioned several times by Lancaster. And didnt he play alongside Launchbury in the U21 WC or something.
Hes huge aswell.. how has he played. Is he still Kohns deputy or is he starting to surpass him?

I think Slater must tour now...be surprised if he didnt.

Quite surprised there are quite a few calls for Tom Biggs to be called up.

4 tries in 18 AP appearances doesn't exactly strike me as an impressive try scoring record.

The following have better records:

12 in 18 games for Varndell

10 in 18 for Wade

8 in 15 games for Strettle.

7 in 15 for Thompstone

6 in 15 for Monye

6 in 13 for Elliott

5 in 11 AP games for Ashton

5 in 11 games for May.

Yeah ive been surprised by those calls Beshocked.

Id rather see the likes of Wade, May, Thomsptone, Yarde get some exposure.

PS another on the second rows...has Kruis been getting much gametime..and has it been at 4/5 or 6?

Yes beshocked but all those players have scored tries with a decent FH, Biggs has scored despite having Donald shovelling slow rubbish ball to him and having to spend all day chasing kicks which are too long.

If try scoring in the league was all that was looked at, Steve Hanley would have been Englands greatest winger and Varndell would be close behind.

I'm biased of course, but I think Biggs is a good player and wouldnt let anyone down in an England shirt. But having said that I'd rather see Wade and May getting game time as they are the future.

By the way beshocked, whats happened to James Short? I thought he looked very promising?

http://www.premiershiprugby.com/matchcentre/fixtures/squads.php?player=88405&includeref=dynamic

George Kruis has been playing mostly in the 2nd row. Played the full 80 vs Worcester.

The way the 2nd row works at Saracens currently is Borthwick starts in virtually every match with the other 3 main 2nd rows - Hargreaves,Kruis and Botha fighting for the other two spots in the line up.They have been sharing an equal workload between the three of them.

Kitchener obviously is suffering from the same thing at Tigers. Their strength in the 2nd row is very good too.


Pretty sure Wade is a right winger FES.

What's happening to Foden at the moment?

beshocked wrote:Kitchener obviously is suffering from the same thing at Tigers. Their strength in the 2nd row is very good too.

With 13 starts in the AP, Kitchener is the only Tigers second row to notch double figures, with 3 HEC starts (second to Parling) he has 16 starts in 27 matches. He has played well all season BUT recent performances from Slater (Player of the Month for March at WR) have caused that to be forgotten. By contrast Slater has made just 6 AP and 2 HEC starts.

Ah, I really really rate James Short. Lit up the 7s tournament last year. Where is he beshocked?

Glad to hear Kruis is playing in the second row again. From what I've seen, I think I prefer him there to be honest.

Foden is around. I watched the Saints game and he looked pretty dangerous ball in hand. His speed and acceleration were on show. I think the arrival of North could revitalise Foden a bit next season. North is certainly a different sort of winger to what Fodes has on hand at the moment.

yappysnap wrote:I really wouldn't want to see Clark get taken on the summer tour, not just because of his previous antics but because he's been average when ever he's played and has missed a huge amount of the season.

Lindsay really can't tour yet, he can not throw for toffee and is part of a dire scrum, like Quins Joe Gray I just don't think he has the needed stature for International rugby, especially as Youngs gets complaints about his power at the moment.

Tomkins, Wade and May should all tour and play in a backline together. Eastmond at 12 would be horribe, like Hopper at 12 for Quins he'd just waste the ball and slow down attacks. Get 36 in there.

Kitchener will likely miss out as there's now Slater, Attwood, Cannon, Launchberry, Mathews and Kruis who all start regularly for their clubs to choose before him.

London Tiger, bravo on the article, it's the best i've read in a while on here.

I agree on Clark, leaving aside the usual complaints he really wasn't standing out in the Jeff when he was selected in the EPS. Besides that Lancs has said a few times he sees him as a 7 (Lord alone knows why) and both Will Fraser and Matt Kvesic are far and away ahead of him in deserving a shot at that particular slot.

You're a bit behind on Lindsay there Yappy. His throwing has been far and away an improvement on last season and to say he doesn't have the stature for it is to say that Bakkies Botha doesn't have the stature for the second row. His stats are: 6'3 and 19st 9lb! Even allowing for the usual exaggeration that makes him one of the heaviest hookers in the Jeff and he runs hard.

I disagree that Eastmond would be a disaster he played half back at League and whilst being very raw in that position given time to develop would make a nice foil for Tuilagi/Tomkins at 13. What I was trying to avoid was going back to the days of having two heavy lumps in the centre. I think you need some pace in there and if we want to see Tomkins at 13 that means a pacier player at 12. Joseph is way out of form and hasn't played 12 for an age so who else is there?

Kitchener is a good line-out organiser and six out of six of those locks you have mentioned are not. I don't see how he'll be behind someone like Matthews given he doesn't start regularly for Quins yet bar the LV Cup. Cannon pops up for Wasps now and then and hasn't looked half bad but again he's no line-out man and he has even less appearances than Matthews/Kitchener.

bluestonevedder Short is not scoring as many tries as he has in previous seasons.

1 try in 13 matches in the AP isn't great. He did score a good try vs the Tigers but haven't seen enough of that power and pace he has shown in the past.

He was sent off to play in the Melrose 7s.

Also with Strettle and Ashton on the wings he's not getting much of a look in recently.

Blimey, I didn't realise he'd played in 13 matches this season! Feels like a long time since I've seen him turn out. Mostly off the bench I presume?

True about Ashton and Strettle. They're both on a rich vein of form.

Yeah we have lots of options at Second Row coming through but we need to make sure they play the right skills / balance.

Kitchener is a lineout guy..so is challenging Robson, Parling, Borthwick etc.

If you think about the full list of Second Rowers available and who could be considered...the main ones are probably:

Parling, Launchbury, Garvey, Slater, Deacon, Kitchener,
Kruis, Botha, Attwood, Lawes, Savage, Cannon
Who would you choose.

You may as well cross Louis Deacon off that list as injuries and age have caught up wih him, Botha too hopefully.

Launchbury and Lawes need to be used more in the lineouts as currently they are underused at club (and international) level.

Cannon is someway off the pace I would say.

GeordieFalcon wrote:Yeah we have lots of options at Second Row coming through but we need to make sure they play the right skills / balance.

Kitchener is a lineout guy..so is challenging Robson, Parling, Borthwick etc.

If you think about the full list of Second Rowers available and who could be considered...the main ones are probably:

Parling, Launchbury, Garvey, Slater, Deacon, Kitchener,
Kruis, Botha, Attwood, Lawes, Savage, Cannon

Who would you choose.

On present form assuming we'll take four Second Rows i'd go:

E Slater
D Attwood
G Kitchener
G Kruis

I understand that Sarries are grooming Kruis as the next Borthwick for the line-out but perhaps Beshocked can confirm? If so that would be a great asset combined with his more physical style.

At present I think Garvey needs to get to Bath and get back in the SR. He's put in some good performances for Irish without being outstanding the past few months. Attwood has impressed me a lot more the past couple of months and he stood out in the Quins game despite being on the losing side. Lawes is going pretty well but I just don't know at the moment. I think he probably needs more game time with Saints and a good pre-season rather than force him on tour.

I think Parling and Launchbury will be with the Lions but i'd take neither for this trip anyway. We know Parling is the man in possession at 5 and Launchbury has performed blindingly well for such a young guy who had only played a season or so in the Jeff previously. Thus i'd like to see Kitchener go as the main line-out guy he offers much more than Robson around the park.

Savage is close but needs to work a touch more on his carrying game. He's one to watch for next season. Young Cannon has put in some great performances for Wasps this season but needs to find a bit more game time there.

Good stuff.

How far away is Matthews from a senior England call up alongside his old mucker Launchbury?