Lancaster's 2012 Summer Bolters - What might we see in 2013?

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For the summer tour of South Africa last year, Stuart Lancaster took 14 uncapped players. Before reviewing which uncapped players may be going to Argentina this summer, lets just look at the progress, or lack of, made by last year's uncapped bunch.

Tom Youngs
Quite possibly the most controversial selection at the time having not started a single premiership match at hooker. Youngs shared the midweek duties with fellow bolter Joe Gray. A good start to the premiership season with Leicester plus injury to Dylan Hartley saw him earn his first cap against Fiji in the autumn. Intermittent issues with his throwing, and concerns over his short stature have been counterbalanced by his all action approach. An outside chance of touring with the Lions, Tom Youngs has started 8 of the 9 internationals since the summer tour and has shown just why Lancaster took a risk on him..

Joe Gray
As stated above, shared midweek duties with Youngs. Whilst he seems to have firmly established himself as first choice at Quins this season (starting 18 of 20 premiership matches) and featured for the Saxons, Quins fans have started to call for him to be replaced by Rob Buchanan.

Joe Marler
Made his test debut on the Summer tour, featuring in all 3 matches. While he has yet to bring his all action game to the test arena, he has still managed to earn 10 caps. He is still learning his craft and will face major competition for further caps from Alex Cobisiero and Mako Vunipola, but we can expect to see him well in the mix as we head towards RWC 2015.

Rupert Harden
Replaced the injured Matt Stevens ahead of departure to SA, was on the bench for the midweek games. Injury denied him the chance to feature for the Saxons this season, while a further injury in March is probably season ending.

Graham Kitchener
Another controversial decision, Kitchener has looked very good at Tigers this season for whom he has made 16 starts in AP and HEC this season. He appeared in both Saxons matches this season to remain very much in Lancaster's plans, yet as the climax of the season approaches may have been overtaken by Ed Slater.

Joe Launchbury
Flew out to South Africa with the squad, but was unable to recover from a knee injury sustained during pre-tour training and was replaced by Jamie Gibson. Made his test debut off the bench against Fiji and a further bench appearance against Australia before making his full debut against SA. 6 further starts have followed, and he was one of England's best players in the 6Ns. Another with an outside chance of making the Lions tour.

George Robson
The fourth uncapped 2nd row to go on tour, he captained the midweek team and played in both Saxons matches this season. Still young enough to make a test debut you just get the feeling that he is unlikely to ever feature prominently for England.

Thomas Waldrom
Made his debut from the bench against SA before securing the starting berth for the 3rd (drawn) test. Two more starts in the first two AIs have since been followed by a solitary bench appearance against Italy. A figure of fun and almost universally despised by England fans, he is also a cult hero at Welford Rd. You woul dthink he is unlikely to feature heavily in Lancaster's future plans.

Carl Fearns
Despite looking not quite fit ( an accusation that could be levelled at several up and coming back row forwards) he made a promising impression in the mid-week matches. Injuries and doubts over his best position continue to slow the expected development. He will hope to be going to South america, but the rise of players like Kruis, Fraser, Wallace and Billy Vunipola will mean he needs a strong close to the season.

Tom Johnson
5 consecutive starts beginning with the 1st test in SA were reward for slogging his way through the junior levels. Unlikely to feature much in the future.

Jonathan Joseph
The young centre appeared in all 3 tests in SA, initially from the bench. A 4th cap as a replacement in the win over NZ was his last appearance in the white of England. Career has faltered in 2013 with most of his appearances at FB since turn of the year and no starts for a couple of months. He will hope that the move to Bath revitalises things, and that Lancaster has not forgotten him.

George Lowe
Appeared on the wing in one midweek match, he will have been disappointed in the way his 12/13 season has panned out. Injuries and iffy form have seen him make just 9 starts for Quins in 27 AP/HEC matches.

Christian Wade
Looked good on attack in the midweek games, notching a hat-trick in the first. Lancaster and Farrell may have taken more notice of his defensive naivety. The England management's pre-occupation with defence has as yet seen this fine talent fail to gain a cap. Hopefully that will be rectified this Summer - unless he goes to Australia.

Alex Goode
Coming off the bench in the 2nd test to replace the unfortunate Mike Brown, he has started every test for England since. An intelligent footballer, he has divided fans opinion since. Mike Brown, perhaps the best FB in the AP over the last two years, has had to move to the wing - a move that many are not happy with. Ironic really but it may be that Goode does not quite have the pace needed to thrive at international level. Continued strong performances for Sarries will see him in the England team for some time to come however.


Jonny May and Jamie Gibson were two further uncapped players called up during the tour.


Summary
Of the 14 uncapped players to tour SA, 5 made test appearances on that tour and another 2 were capped first in the AIs. Four of them have become regulars for England since then. Most notably with Youngs and Launchbury, Lancaster has shown that he is not scared of trusting inexperienced players. He does however seem to prefer defensive shape over attacking flair. Some of these guys have clearly slipped down the pecking order - and may struggle to make this summers tour.


2013 summer Tour Wildcards
My predictions as to some of the uncapped faces we can expect to see in South America:

Henry Thomas
The young Sale tighthead would have been favoured to tour even without the injury to Harden. He trained with the EPS this season and with cole probably Australia bound should be challenging David Wilson for the test berth.

Ed Slater
Has spent much of the season behind Kitchener at Tigers, but recent performances have moved him right into the spotlight. Both tigers young guns may travel.

George Kruis
Capable of playing second row and back row, the sort of player Lancaster likes. Main problem will be to secure a starting berth at Sarries, though that did not prevent Lancaster taking risks with Youngs and Kitchener last year.

Calum Clark
A Lancaster favourite. If fit he will travel.

Matt Kvesic
Covers 8 and 7 with equal applomb. Has moved ahead of Carl Fearns and will probably travel.

Will Fraser
Fantastic season for Sarries. Probably tourist irrelevant of Gatland's selections.

George Ford
Not been a good season for the young man, but with Owen Farrell probably on the way to Australia can expect to tour.

Kyle Eastmond & Joel Tomkins
At least one, and probably both of these former RL stars will tour.

Jonny May
Offers real pace. Shone in his replacement midweek appearance last year. Will be joined by fellow speedster Wade if he does not become a Lion.

Elliot Daly
Was left out of the JWC last summer for strength and conditioning training. Is he a centre or a FB. Not sure though England seem to see him as a FB. Pace, big boot, good hands and an eye for the gap. Could be a real star in the making.

beshocked wrote:Quite surprised there are quite a few calls for Tom Biggs to be called up.

4 tries in 18 AP appearances doesn't exactly strike me as an impressive try scoring record.

The following have better records:

12 in 18 games for Varndell

10 in 18 for Wade

8 in 15 games for Strettle.

7 in 15 for Thompstone

6 in 15 for Monye

6 in 13 for Elliott

5 in 11 AP games for Ashton

5 in 11 games for May.

I don't look at the stats. I love the way that Biggs goes looking for work and keeps on going when all around have given up the ghost. I hadn't until just now known that he's 27. 28 in August.

Still I like the cut of his jib. Mind you, peroxide blondes always get noticed.

Matthews has looked energetic without making huge waves at the moment. Like Savage I think next season could be very promising for him. As far as a cap goes, judging by how long Kitchener and Attwood have been floating around it might be a while yet.

Yeah but Attwood dropped a level from when he first came to notice at Glos.
If he had kept up that form he would be a fixture in the England side now.

Hopefully him or Slater..or Matthews later can become that powerguy in the engine room that most agree we are missing.

Put Stephen Donald at 10 and I challenge any winger (in the same side) to score tries!

Agree with Greytiger, it's his directness and workrate that are so impressive. Always looking for the ball.

I think Bath will be a bit more sorted next season, and I'd expect to see Biggs score more tries as a result.

Still, there's plenty good competition on that list. Thompstone in particularly is finishing strongly, and Strettle finally seems to have re-discovered open space again, plus May has an excellent all round game.

Lancaster will probably stick with Brown on the wing though. Bless his cotton socks!

chjw131 yes I think they are grooming Kruis as the next lineout man. I think he ran the lineout vs Worcester.

He has a long way to go to be as proficient as Borthwick in that area but he's a good around the park.

I wouldn't disagree with the 2nd rows you suggest.

That's presuming Launchbury and Parling make it on the Lions tour.

God, Wade and Varndell's scoring stats are ridiculous.

That's great Beshocked. I agree Kruis has got some serious way to go but he's learning from one of the best. Borthwick's line-out has to be one of the best ever along with Matfield.

Going forward a choice of: Parling, Kruis, Kitchener as no.5 options for England looks a good one with some handy work around the park.

At no.4 we've got Launchbury, Attwood, Slater, Garvey, Savage etc.. all as potentials to be a good no.4 for England.

Matthews is being eased into the Quins set up - he's had some good games and I rekon that he will start forcing more gametime next season.
Definately a good prospect and I would like to see him in the Saxons. Might be too soon to see him in argentina though.

Whats happening with Sharples?

Good article LT!

As has been said it's hard to predict Lancaster's squad before the Lions one has been announced but the one I'd take at the moment (it seems to change daily currently) wouldn't actually alter too much with Lions selection and would be pretty young.

Presuming Youngs, Cole, Parling, Wood, Robshaw, Youngs, Care, Farrell and Tuilagi travel with the Lions - they're who I reckon will go anyway, i.e. who I think will go not who I'd take! This is also presuming that Lancaster will take a big squad for player development.

Loosehead - Vunipola, Marler
Hooker - Hartley, Lindsay, Buchanan
Tighthead - Wilson, Thomas, Knight
Lock - Launchberry, Slater, Lawes, Kitchener, Attwood
Blindside - Croft, Haskell, Fearns
Openside - Fraser, Kvesic
No 8 - Morgan, Vunipola
Scrum half - Wigglesworth, Dickson, Simpson
Fly half - Burns, Flood, Ford
Inside centre - Twelvetrees, Barritt, Allen
Outside centre - Lowe, Tomkins, Daly
Wing - May, Wade, Strettle
Full back - Brown, Goode, Foden (Abendanon/Tait if Brown tavels)

That's a 38 man squad with 20 forwards and 18 backs which is about what I'd expect Lancaster take. Bolters in there are - Buchanan, Thomas, Knight, Slater, Fearns, Fraser, Ford, Tomkins, Daly and May. From that squad I'd select:

1.Vunipola 2.Hartley 3.Wilson 4.Slater 5.Launchberry 6.Croft 7.Kvesic 8.Morgan/Vunipola
9.Wigglesworth 10.Burns 11.May 12.Twelvetrees 13.Lowe/Tomkins 14.Wade 15.Brown
16.Lindsay 17.Marler 18.Thomas 19.Lawes 20.Haskell 21.Dickson 22.Flood 23.Daly

Not a bad squad at all Carlos but I think i'd probably take one or two less players if it was me. Four games but the two midweekers will be against fairly inexperienced opposition. I'd just like to make sure everyone is getting a good level of game time.

I think he took 40 for SA and that was a three test tour with two midweekers against much tougher opposition.

The rumour is that Lancs won't be taking players he already knows about so i'd assume Hartley won't travel and I wouldn't want him there either. Likewise for Croft and Haskell. I don't think i'd want to see three scrum halves and three FHs either.

Launchburry has done superbly well but is looking a bit fatigued and I think i'd give him a full pre-season with Wasps to add some weight etc.. Plus Attwood and Slater i'd like to have a look at in that 4 slot. Likewise Kitchener and Kruis in the 5 slot.

My test team would be:

1. M Vunipola
2. R Buchanan
3. D Wilson
4. E Slater
5. G Kitchener
6. C Fearns (subject to injury I accept)
7. M Kvesic
8. B Morgan
9. R Wigglesworth
10. F Burns
11. J May
12. B Twelvetrees
13. J Joseph
14. C Wade
15. N Abendanon

16. R Webber 17. M Mullan 18. H Thomas 19. D Attwood 20. W Fraser 21. J Simpson 22. G Ford 23. E Daly

Chjw131 wrote:That's great Beshocked. I agree Kruis has got some serious way to go but he's learning from one of the best. Borthwick's line-out has to be one of the best ever along with Matfield.

Going forward a choice of: Parling, Kruis, Kitchener as no.5 options for England looks a good one with some handy work around the park.

At no.4 we've got Launchbury, Attwood, Slater, Garvey, Savage etc.. all as potentials to be a good no.4 for England.

Ive said before id love to see Lawes really focus on becoming a lineout king. His lineout is improving vastly...and with his physical edge that could be great alongside an Attwood, Launcbury, Slater etc.
I appreciate he may not be able to run a lineout...but having Croft or Wood at 6 who can would mean that doesnt matter.

And for the first test subject to all being fit, the lions absentees and resting senior eps'ers:

1 Marler / Vunipola
2 ? Webber, Buchanan, Lindsay ?
3 Wilson
4 Attwood
5 Slater
6 Croft
7 Kvesic
8 Vunipola / Morgan

9 Care or Youngs (For a little experience)
10 Flood (Again for a little experience)
11 Wade
12 Twelvetrees
13 Tomkins
14 Yarde / May
15 Brown

Take Burns, Thomas and some of the youngsters to get plenty of gametime aswell.

Is it Robson at Glos..the scrum half...how has he been doing? getting game time and playing well? If he has i would take someone like him. I really think after Youngs and Care the cupboard is very bare...and we need to look at some of the youngsters.

Chjw131 wrote:Not a bad squad at all Carlos but I think i'd probably take one or two less players if it was me. Four games but the two midweekers will be against fairly inexperienced opposition. I'd just like to make sure everyone is getting a good level of game time.

I think he took 40 for SA and that was a three test tour with two midweekers against much tougher opposition.

The rumour is that Lancs won't be taking players he already knows about so i'd assume Hartley won't travel and I wouldn't want him there either. Likewise for Croft and Haskell. I don't think i'd want to see three scrum halves and three FHs either.

Launchburry has done superbly well but is looking a bit fatigued and I think i'd give him a full pre-season with Wasps to add some weight etc.. Plus Attwood and Slater i'd like to have a look at in that 4 slot. Likewise Kitchener and Kruis in the 5 slot.

38 may be excessive to be fair but for some players I think they could benefit from the experience and a different coaching angle as much as anything. Especially tight head I view like that, with Cole away I'd like to see a couple of the youngsters travel with Wilson to get a proper look at them. God knows that if Cole were to get injured we need to identify a replacement quick - whilst I rate Rowntree hugely as a coach and am happy to see him with the Lions losing him for the Argentina tour where he could've worked with guys like Thomas, Knight, Lindsay etc extensively is a blow.

Whilst I understand Lancasters wish to blood as many young players as possible it's also a series I want to win so would like some experience! Hence why I'd like to see a few guys such as Croft, Haskell and Hartley tour to keep some leaders and consistency. Launchberry I wouldn't be adverse to giving a full pre-season as you suggest, we've got some really good youngs second rows who we need to get involved ahead of Botha, Palmer and whilst I don't like to admit it Deacon now.

I'd sacrifice Ford from the fly-halfs to lighten the squad a bit but would like 3 SH's to travel as after Youngs/Care I really don't think we know who the next best option is at the moment with lots of guys on pretty even pegging but none standing out and all with flaws in their game.

With two midweek matches, one in Uruguay, added to the schedule we can expect to see a fairly large squad.

Granted LT but Gatland made a pretty good point on The Rugby Club last week about making sure some key players get maximum game time. When you think The Lions are on 6 games then 3 tests they'll be taking 37/38 players.

I agree Carlos that some leadership in there wouldn't go amiss. Croft I have a sneaking suspicion might make the Lions tour if he's fit but if not then the Argentina tour wouldn't be too bad for him. Likewise Flood could tour for his experience.

Haskell has had non-stop rugby for about two years and I think could do with a holiday and pre-season. If he doesn't get himself back to top form he will come under serious pressure from the likes of Carl Fearns and Matt Kvesic who have a similar ability to cover across the backrow.

Scrum half I agree is an area we need to work on a bit more depth. GeordieF as far as Robson goes he's got some awesome potential but I don't think he's quite ready yet. He had a chargedown in the Sale game and needs some more experience first I would say.

Simpson and Wigglesworth are good players but perhaps we know what they can do. What happened to Ben Spencer?? Beshocked? He was in the Saxons last year and looked to be doing very well at times. Superb box kicking as I recall.

I don't think Spencer has played much for the first team in 2013 Chjw131. Whether due to injury or the presence of Wigglesworth/De Kock I'm not sure.

Wigglesworth is a player that has improved hugely in the last couple of years in my opinion. If we're looking for a player with a different style to Youngs and Care, i.e. quick service, get the ball away from the ruck and a clever kicking game then I think Wigglesworth has leapfrogged both the Dickson's in my estimations currently.

Simpson we're yet to see at the highest level, whilst I can see clear reasons for that as his all round game needs to keep developing before he could start regularly at International level. Robson and Lewis usually impress when I see them for Gloucester but they're both pretty inexperienced. Robson would've been next on my list after Wigglesworth, Simpson and the Dicksons (maybe even ahead of Lee and Karl) but his charged down clearance at the weekend is fresh in memory and was very poor!

Indeed he's played some great games for Glaws and was keeping Jimmy Cowan out of a starting birth for a while. He needs another full season I think but will soon be ahead of the Dickson brothers I think.

Simpson has matured in his game quite a bit and I agree that Wigglesworth has looked as good as he has for a long time recently. I'd have no problem with him being the Test SH in Arg.

Spencer I would like to see come into the Sarries first team a bit more he has a great all-round game.

Whatever happened to Micky Young? He looked good at Newcastle and having gone to Tigers he's picked up a ban, injury and very little game time. He could do with following Clegg back to Newcastle.

To be honest i think we should seriously consider looking at both Wade and Varndell playing on the wings, what the stats dont tell us about them is that they seem to have an insane ability to read each other. Having watched as much of Wasps as i can this year, it wouldn't surprise me if a lot of their tries had come from an assist from the other one.
With Varndell still reasonably young having only just turned 27 and Wade at 21 they could be a partnership for a decent run (and that is without including Elliott Daly from that wasps team!

Chjw131 wrote:Whatever happened to Micky Young? He looked good at Newcastle and having gone to Tigers he's picked up a ban, injury and very little game time. He could do with following Clegg back to Newcastle.

started last season unfit/injured and then as you said banned.

This season he got injured in the first match and has struggled for game time ever since - yet always looks sharp to me.

Meflanker - Varndell should certainly be in with a chance of touring but with Wade and May being so talented and Strettle showing form at just the right time he may struggle to leapfrog those three in Lancaster's pecking order. Especially when you consider that Brown, Goode and Foden probably won't make the Lions tour so could all travel. I expect to see three wings and three FB's with Foden/Brown being rightly or wrongly used to cover the wing.

Micky Young has had a torrid time at the Tigers with injury, the ban and Harrison's form combining to give him little game time. If he can get fit for the start of next season he could have a great chance to stake a renewed claim with Ben Youngs likely to be with the Lions then rested.

I'm another that can't agree with those suggesting Biggs over other wing candidates. He's a decent enough club player, but his try scoring, defence, link play, ability to make breaks and gain ground are pretty much all inferior to other options that could be added to the EPS. The stats back that opinion up:

Biggs - Wade
18 Matches 19
4 Tries 11
20 Points 55
3 Try assist 3
16 Kicks From Hand 19
7 Passes 71
82 Carries 109
600 Metres carried 1231
8 Clean breaks 23
4 Offloads 13
23 Defenders beaten 43
43 Tackles 60
12 Missed tackles 9

May - Varndell
12 Matches 19
7 Tries 13
35 Points 65
1 Try assist 2
18 Kicks From Hand 14
70 Passes 53
102 Carries 108
763 Metres carried 1300
13 Clean breaks 24
5 Offloads 12
32 Defenders beaten 33
40 Tackles 35
9 Missed tackles 8

Yarde - Nowell
18 Matches 10
2 Tries 2
10 Points 10
2 Try assist 0
34 Kicks From Hand 11
40 Passes 11
132 Carries 96
1015 Metres carried 732
20 Clean breaks 10
11 Offloads 4
45 Defenders beaten 35
91 Tackles 69
13 Missed tackles 4

mbernz wrote:I'm another that can't agree with those suggesting Biggs over other wing candidates. He's a decent enough club player, but his try scoring, defence, link play, ability to make breaks and gain ground are pretty much all inferior to other options that could be added to the EPS. The stats back that opinion up:

Biggs - Wade
18 Matches 19
4 Tries 11
20 Points 55
3 Try assist 3
16 Kicks From Hand 19
7 Passes 71
82 Carries 109
600 Metres carried 1231
8 Clean breaks 23
4 Offloads 13
23 Defenders beaten 43
43 Tackles 60
12 Missed tackles 9

May - Varndell
12 Matches 19
7 Tries 13
35 Points 65
1 Try assist 2
18 Kicks From Hand 14
70 Passes 53
102 Carries 108
763 Metres carried 1300
13 Clean breaks 24
5 Offloads 12
32 Defenders beaten 33
40 Tackles 35
9 Missed tackles 8

Yarde - Nowell
18 Matches 10
2 Tries 2
10 Points 10
2 Try assist 0
34 Kicks From Hand 11
40 Passes 11
132 Carries 96
1015 Metres carried 732
20 Clean breaks 10
11 Offloads 4
45 Defenders beaten 35
91 Tackles 69
13 Missed tackles 4

Not saying your right or wrong, but Wasps game plan is centred on bringing there wings into play so there stats would look better than most.

I know I only watched the highlights but after the weekend its hard to see beyond Wade and May.

I guess Davy Wilson and Attwood have booked their ticket to Argentina.

Whos that second row for exeter...he scored a cracking try at the weekend.

Wade is a must...and Varndell should be given another chance. Johnny May must go also.

Anyone know if they are going to be showing the tour matches on the TV?
Who would have the rights to that if SKY are covering the Lions tour?

interesting that Yarde has beaten more defenders than Wade this season.

Thought Wade would of smashed that stat.

Yarde is another one i would look to take.

Possibly...Yarde, Wade, Varndell and May.
I do like a right powerhouse winger aswell...but i just dont think we have any of those of considerable ability...as opposed to the four above who are playing very well.

After watching some of the weekend's full games, an catching up on the other with highlights, my god England have got some talented wingers. Wade and May simply have to go to Argentina, and I bet both of them will be in the squad for the 6 Nations next year.

Big old Davey Wilson showed what he is capable of, and might just be worth more than a 7 minute cameo off the bench whilst on international duty. Attwood looks to have booked his ticket too, which is good news.

I thought Webber had a cracking game too. He was physical and abrasive.

Good to see Morgan back to his charging best. Heck of a try he scored.

Haven't had a chance to see the Saints game, but see that Lawes was MoM? Interesting, since he also got yellow carded. Can anyone shed any light on his performance?

Yeah i forgot about Morgan...good try...showed what England really missed in the 6n. A big lump flying with the ball.

Whilst Gold may have his detractors...he seems to be sorting out Wilson and Attwoods form. They look like really getting back to their best form. And that is good for England. How is Fearns going....

Did you see the Exeter second row's try...that was a corker aswell.

Havent seen Lawes game...

Guy Armitage looks a handy player, two great finishes for his tries. Shoddy defending though.

Lawes was a little unlucky to be yellowed, was Woods fault and he got away with it. Holmes reacted to Wood initiating it, and Lawes jumped in once he saw Holmes on Wood!

Attwood and Wilson were both excellent for Bath.

Yeh, without Morgan, England's pack had very little go forward or a good attacking platform to work with. Really great to see him come back and make an immediate impact.

Agree with your comments about Gold. I think Bath's entire pack has improved a lot since he took charge. On Saturday, their pack was excellent, and line speed particularly good (though occassionally offisde). We need a brute second row like Attwood.

Haven't had a chance to see the Exeter try yet, though from the sound of it, it was a cracker? Nowell's try sounded good too?

stnick88 wrote:Lawes was a little unlucky to be yellowed, was Woods fault and he got away with it. Holmes reacted to Wood initiating it, and Lawes jumped in once he saw Holmes on Wood!

Because most players got involved, the ref had to do something, a YC to each team was the best way to calm the situation down. Lawes had a decnt game, but really Saints were so dominant and Sale so callow that no-one deserved man of the match. the biggest influence was Steve Diamond who sent so many kids out to be sacrificial lambs.

I think it is harsh to blame Wood - though Barnes tried. the Sale guy was on the wrong side of the ruck and just standing there refusing to go back. He deserved to be driven back to his own side - irrespective of whether he was bound.


PS sobering for me that the ref in that game was easily young enough to be my son.

After watching some of the weekend's full games, an catching up on the other with highlights, my god England have got some talented wingers.

The only problem i see is getting the ball to them.

England arent exactly the most thrilling side in the world. Im not a huge flood fan but at least he gets a backline running a little...hopefully Burns will get a game, hes the one i really hope fulfills his potential. Add Twelvetrees in there and Tomkins at 13 and i think he could have a decent backline...

9 Care
10 Burns
11 Wade
12 Twelvetrees
13 Tomkins
14 May
15 Foden / Brown

Best not to think about that GF! Getting the ball out to our wingers seems to be a luxury that England can't afford at the moment. Still....we can dream

Should the likes of Parling , Launchbury, Wood, Croft etc not get selected for the Lions would you take them to Argentina...or give them a summer off?

What about the likes of Ben Morgan....with his recent injury etc would you give him the summer off or allow him the chance to battle Vunipola for that 8 spot.

For me a lot depends upon whether Argentina do what they did last year - hosted France with mainly domestic players - or if they plan to include their 4Ns players.

If the former then I would give a lot of players a rerst. If the lkater we cannot afford to send a team bereft of all experience (asssuming the experience is in good players of course).

The 98 tour probably set a number of players development back a few years.

I know I'm a tad biased but if chiefs can beat Gloucester we will be the 5th best team in the Prem 2 seasons running yet have only 1 player who has received International recognition!!

It's no fluke that Exeter win games both home and away, they've scored ( without checking) the 2nd most try's in the league and have a very good points difference!!

With Rob Baxter going as forwards coach I would not be surprised to see some of

Jack Yeandle bald headed nasty hooker

James Scaysbrook bald headed nasty seven

Haydn Thomas great scrum half real threat around fringes

Jack Nowell 19 year old wing/fullback who has played and dominated all eng age group levels including u21

Luke Arscott simply sublime in Heineken up against Clermont and Leinster and consistently class week in week out in the prem

Tiger/Chief wrote:It's no fluke that Exeter win games both home and away, they've scored ( without checking) the 2nd most try's in the league and have a very good points difference!!

With Rob Baxter going as forwards coach I would not be surprised to see some of

Jack Yeandle bald headed nasty hooker

James Scaysbrook bald headed nasty seven

Haydn Thomas great scrum half real threat around fringes

Jack Nowell 19 year old wing/fullback who has played and dominated all eng age group levels including u21

Luke Arscott simply sublime in Heineken up against Clermont and Leinster and consistently class week in week out in the prem

Tigers, Quins and Saints have all scored more tries than Exeter.

At 31 and 34 it is unlikely that Scayesbrook and Thomas will tour.
Nowell will probably go to the JWC with a number of other young chiefs.
Yeandle - well Lancaster has shown he will select wildcards but with just 6 premiership starts and nothing in the HEC he hasn't been Baxter's first choice at Exeter.
Arscott - possible, but there is a lot of competition at FB.

Exeter have done very well at being better than the sum of their parts. A number of players have been round the block a bit and Baxter has gotten the best out of them. Then we have a crop of players coming from the academy - probably won't see them in the England setup till after RWC2015 though.

GeordieFalcon wrote:Should the likes of Parling , Launchbury, Wood, Croft etc not get selected for the Lions would you take them to Argentina...or give them a summer off?

What about the likes of Ben Morgan....with his recent injury etc would you give him the summer off or allow him the chance to battle Vunipola for that 8 spot.

For me it depends on the individual player rather than a collective decision for the lot - looking at individual players I think some of them pick/rest themselves.

Youngs, Cole, Parling, Launchberry, Wood, Robshaw B Youngs, Farrell and Tuilagi are the guys I view as having a good/reasonable chance of touring with the lions and are also the guys I'd rest if they don't due to either the amount of rugby they've played recently or existing injuries you don't want to exacerbate (Wood's for instance). If Tom Youngs didn't travel with the Lions I'd happily have him in the squad and Parling I'd consider but all the others I'd rest.

Looking at the other experienced guys - Hartley should tour I think as he hasn't played much Int rugby this season, Care may go with the Lions but if he doesn't I'd take him as he'll be gagging to start some games for England, Barritt I'd rest or take as back up to Twelvetrees as I simply don't think he's the best option we have and Ashton I'd drop. With Launchberry there's is a very good argument to rest him due to the amount of rugby he's played.

Established EPS players who are competing for a spot such as Goode, Brown and Foden I'd take as we want to know who the best option is just as much as we want to find out about the younger players. Tom Croft is one interesting player as anything could really happen - he's in with outside chance for the Lions and hasn't played much International rugby this year so would love to go on either tour I expect but equally could be rested due to the neck injury. Personally if he isn't with the Lions I'd take him and start him in the tests to get him back in the England set-up.

Does anyone really think .SL will be brave enough to pick wade or may for the test side because I don't he will.
For some strange reason he has no problem throwing in raw 20 year old props but when it comes to the backs its always safety first.
I wouldn't be surprised to see strettle or monye picked ahead of them or to continue with the brown/foden experiment which would show up a very serious flaw in his mindset.
I really hope we get to see both make their debuts,may to start wade to play last 25 is how I would go.
They are both natural finishers and would worry any opposition they came up against.
Regarding a recall for attwood,I would love it to happen but in SL pecking order he is a long way down the list.
We are now 17 games into the new regime and I think we are at a crossroads,time to release the shackles!!!
25 to go until the WC and we seem to have more questions than answers,time to build a team

1. Vunipola
2. Hartley
3. Wilson
4. Slater
5. Attwood
6. Croft
7. Kvesic
8. Morgan

Bench - Marler, Webber, Mercey, Kruis, Wood

That looks a good forward mix to me with Youngs, Cole, Launchbury, Parling and Robshaw touring. The Puma's will be big and physical up front and we need to match that at the least. Big ball carriers, one amazing/two good lineout jumpers, muscle in the scrum and options at the breakdown.

9. Care
10. Flood
11. May
12. Barritt
13. Tomkins
14. Wade
15. Goode

Bench - Simpson, Burns, Eastmond.

Power in the midfield, pace out wide and the additional play maker at the pack to deal with the Argie bombardment. Harsh on Brown but his kicking game is a touch agricultural and he has little in terms of play making. Foden I wouldn't bother taking. Sadly I can't see Lancaster being that brave on the wing selections though.

Sam I agree with the pack except that I think Launchberry might just miss out on the Lions squad in which case I start him with Slater and put Atwood on the bench.

In the backs I'm a big fan of Twelvetrees and Brown so would take those over Barritt and Goode, also even as a Tigers fan I'm finding myself sliding towards Burns over Flood - Toby has struggled for much of the season and given how good Burn's kicking from the tea now is and his all round composure being improved alongside his natural playmaking I'd be tempted to start him in Argentina.

Just to let you all know, we may only be seeing 7 English players going on the Lions tour, and a big surprise is one of those is Croft. At least that's according to the Times:

According to reports in the Sunday Times, Gatland, who is yet to finalise his squad, could include just six or seven England players to Australia.

While the likes of Christian Wade and Chris Ashton are still in the frame, reports suggest that the only definite Englishmen on Lions duty come the summer are Leicester's Dan Cole, Tom Croft, Ben Youngs, Tom Youngs, Manu Tuilagi and Saracens' Owen Farrell. Tigers and England lock Geoff Parling is also in the mix for a place in the squad.

Harlequins and England skipper Chris Robshaw is still in the frame with the Sunday Times report claiming: "They would like to take him for his honesty and leadership but he is not deemed fast enough to take on Australia in his normal England position as openside flanker."

Oh and if that is the case good luck for next season Tigers. I can already hear Cockers getting the excuses primed...

yappysnap wrote:Oh and if that is the case good luck for next season Tigers. I can already hear Cockers getting the excuses primed...

If Croft and Manu are selected by Gatland I am not sure the boards could cope with the outrage from certain posters

A new section will need to be created to hold all of their posts, especially if either of the two were to make the Test teams.

Dan Cole, Tom Croft, Ben Youngs, Tom Youngs, Manu Tuilagi and Saracens' Owen Farrell.

Well if that is the England contingent its pretty much as i expected....though i must confess i dont see how they cant take Robshaw. If thats the case i would be giving him a summer off..likewise Wood, Parling etc.

Sam i like your team alot...and i could happily see that team start. Only possible changes...
Flood v Burns
Twelvetrees v Barritt - Barritts played alot of rugby...give him a summer off to recharge the batteries

I hadn't realised Slater was only 24. He's looked very good for Leicester recently. No Launchbury in the Lions squad would be surprising, especially with Gray and Charteris out injured.

Assuming that yappy's post is correct and those in bold are the only ones that end up going:

1. Vunipola
2. Hartley
3. Doran-Jones

Hartley will be gutted at how his international season has gone, so I would give him a shot at these games to see how he does. Doran-Jones did well for the Saxons against Scotland and has a chance to nail a starting spot at Quins next year, so I'd give him a go alongside the other two first choice front-rowers to see how he does.

4. Launchbury
5. Lawes

Both young, athletic and physical. Lawes has missed a fair bit of rugby this year and seems to be hitting form, so will be keen to get out there I'd have thought. Launchbury's had a long season but its his first year of international rugby so he shouldn't have any long term fatigue issues from last season or anything. Slater should also go. Parling should probably have a break.

6. Wood (c)
7. Fraser
8. Morgan

Depending on how Wood's foot is these days, I'd give him a shot at the captaincy. Robshaw looks knackered, so if he's not in Australia I'd leave him at home and have a shoot-out between Fraser, Kvesic and Wallace for the 7 shirt. Morgan will want gametime as well I'd guess.

9. Care
10. Burns

Care is another who's been in great club form but struggled at international level, probably because he doesn't get the space round the fringes he needs, and hasn't had an Easter-style number 8 to link up with. His pass is also a bit dodgy but his experience would be useful inside Burns, who deserves a start.

12. Twelvetrees
13. Tomkins

Both big guys with good passing and offloading skills.

11. May
14. Wade
15. Foden

With the distribution of Burns, 36 and Tomkins it would be nice to have some dangerous strike runners out wide. May and Wade have been scoring for fun and are both stupid-quick. Foden will be desperate to get back in and England shirt and his recent Northampton form looks back to his best. If anything I'd say he's gained half a yard of pace this year.